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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 31, 2011, 01:26:10 AM

Title: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 31, 2011, 01:26:10 AM
After my wife tried this cheese she turned to me and said, why don't you make cheeses like this? Its sweet taste and aroma is still lingering in my nose and now that I have the WAF I shall at least try this cheese.

I understand on a small scale production say 35L it is hard to de-scale this recipe given that I don't even have a recipe on hand. I am searching the forum for the last hour and also googled it but there isn't any sort of recipe. I found little info on the forum from LB about the fat levels only.

I am guessing it is like Swiss Emmenthaler without the P. Shermanii and may be washed curd for its sweet characteristic taste and looks like brine bathed and aged naked with B.Linens??? Can I use a shop bought comte rind for rind development? What thermo cultures needed?

Can someone please post a recipe that I can start with?
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 31, 2011, 02:05:18 AM
Quote
it is like Swiss Emmenthaler without the P. Shermanii
Same family, so yes, similar. But not exactly emmentaler without shermanii. It actually usually has shermanii. Diff temp schedule.

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and may be washed curd
No, it is not.

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looks like brine bathed and aged naked with B.Linens???
It is washed with a morge like the rest of the gruyeres.

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Can I use a shop bought comte rind for rind development?
Very hard, not as is. You would need to take the rind and isolate is cultures first. Easier to mix up your own morge.

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What thermo cultures needed?
helveticus and delbrueckii types.

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post a recipe that I can start with?
French comte, right?

Culture:
S salivarius thermophilus: 20 DCU per 100 liters
Helveticus: 5 DCU per 100 liters (strain important)
Propionic: per usual, something like 0.05 - .1 unit per 100 liters. Just a bit
LD or O type: 10 DCU per 100 liters.

Milk, at 91F, add culture.  PF is 1.2. This is almost parmesan-like.
ripen 30-34 mins.
Add rennet (time to floc 12 mins. Multiplier 2-3x)
Cut, heal 5-10 mins, cut size is about 4 mm.
Stir is a bit to make sure there are no huge curd bits
Then scald from 91F or so, all the way to 125F ish
scald 122 to 135F for the next 45 mins
Hold at that temp and stir, targetting about 6.3 pH.
let settle, press under whey, put into final size molds and press 10-15 PSI until you get to 5.4 pH


dry salt 2% w/w, should do over several applications
cold room ripen at 50-55F, 3-4 weeks
then move to warm room at 62-66F (about) for 6 weeks, maybe 8. Start smearing with morge here.
Then move to cold ripening at 52F and keep smearing with morge, but not so regularly, about 1x/week. Age out for a year or more

Going from memory here. That's the basic comte make.

Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 31, 2011, 02:22:10 AM
Thanks LB.

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LD or O type: 10 DCU per 100 liters.
Can you eloborate this please.
Is this the morge or B. Linens is enough for morge?
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 31, 2011, 02:42:01 AM
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Can you eloborate this please.
What do you want to know? There's quite a bit of info you can find by searching,
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Is this the morge or B. Linens is enough for morge?
No, morge is morge. O culture is O culture. Not sure what you need to know. B linens is definitely NOT enough for morge. You need a classic morge succession, which includes micrococci.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 31, 2011, 02:47:16 AM
I mean if I am going to order cultures, what I need to order for LD and O-Type


For Morge mixture, what cultures, yeasts exactly do I need?
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 31, 2011, 02:53:19 AM
Here, you are getting to the nuances of very complex microbiology. The answer is "it depends". What you're asking is how do I go about replicating French comte? My answer to you is to go to the Jura and get the milk, natural starters, natural morge, and make it. Anything else, you are driving forward the final cheese type, and it's difficult to predict how the final product will come out because you are creating a custom cheese.

What should you order? These are a half dozen suppliers of cultures. And comte is made with none of them.  O type is normal  cheddar culture. LD is something like Flora Danica. Morges are made by combining multiple strains of b linens and micrococci, and letting ambient yeasts and molds do their work.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 31, 2011, 03:00:42 AM
Thanks LB, I think I have enough info to tackle this recipe.

Getting a ticket to Jura now to get milk, It will be difficult in the customs though,, naah I will pass and use what ever is available in the market.  :o

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 31, 2011, 03:02:58 AM
Yeah, use whatever you can. If you can only get 1 b linens, then start with that. This is such a nuanced milk, and everything matters in the make, but hopefully you can improvise.

Read over Paul's (arnaudforestier) threads where he covers beaufort and tomme makes. Good info there.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: dttorun on October 31, 2011, 10:40:38 AM
Gurkan,
I used Mycodore once, it works. It went wild after some point but the paste was good.
Tan
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: MrsKK on November 15, 2011, 03:07:08 PM
Gurkan, did you ever come up with a recipe?  I just tried this cheese this week and am in love!
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Boofer on November 15, 2011, 03:56:01 PM
I'd echo what linuxboy said about Beaufort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5820.0.html)....

Seems like they would share similar technique and characteristics.

Just came across this:
"About Beaufort: Beaufort was already known in the time of the Romans and is named after a small rural town in the French Alps. Beaufort cheeses come in three versions, Beaufort, Beaufort d’été (summer Beaufort) and Beaufort d’Alpage (in the Alps mountains). The latest is made with milk from Tarine (or Tarentaise) cows. They live in the mountains and graze exclusively on natural pastures. It is said that tasters can feel the grass and flowers of the mountain when eating a piece of Beaufort!

Beaufort making: It takes about 500 litres (130 gallons) of milk to make a Beaufort of 45 kg (99 lb). Beaufort needs to age between 4 to 6 months or even more, in a mountain cellar that maintain a cool temperature throughout the year.

Tasting Beaufort: Beaufort is a giant cheese. A whole wheel weights over 36 kg (80 lb) but more generally 45 kg (99lb). Beaufort is richer and creamier than other mountain cheeses such as Gruyere, Comté or Emmental. Beaufort has a nice scent of milk, butter and honey. The supple paste has flowery and herbs aromas.
"

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 15, 2011, 09:22:13 PM
Quote
Gurkan, did you ever come up with a recipe?  I just tried this cheese this week and am in love!
MrsKK, I am still gathering cultures and writing the detailed recipe. I am planning to tackle this recipe in the next couple of weeks, time permits.

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Seems like they would share similar technique and characteristics.
.
Thanks Boofer, I think I read pretty much everything in the forum about comte and beaufort, my eyes hurt.

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I used Mycodore once, it works. It went wild after some point but the paste was good.
Thanks Tan, I am planning to experiment with kefir and added B. Linens as  a morge on one of the wheels.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: max1 on November 15, 2011, 11:27:27 PM
Same family, so yes, similar. But not exactly emmentaler without shermanii. It actually usually has shermanii. Diff temp schedule.


Diff temps schedule when cooking?  Would temperature during aging affect it as well?
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on November 16, 2011, 12:10:07 PM
Not cooking, aging. They're all cooked about the same. I thought we covered comte before in terms of the salt, culture, and affinage differences between all the gruyere and emmentaler variants? Maybe not, might be in my head. Gurkan, post your recipe when you have created it and I'll take a look.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 17, 2011, 04:40:24 AM
Comte Recipe – metric

MILK
20 litres of skimmed cow’s milk, store bought
CaCl2 is required as the milk is pasteurised

CULTURES
Option 1
Streptococcus Salivarius Thermophilus (20 DCU - per 100 litres) (TA60 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12521))

Lactobacillus Helveticus (5 DCU - per 100 litres) (LH100 from Danisco but one more different bacteria comes in with it which actually might help as it is Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis which you (LB) listed at first reply (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=6387.0))

Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. shermanii (0,05 – 0,1 unit - per 100 litres)

And LD Type starter, that is Flora Danica (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2967.0;attach=7025)

Option 2 – LD Type and PS
Danisco Choozit Feta B LYO (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12511)
And add Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. Shermanii

Option 3 – O Type and PS
Danisco Choozit ALP LYO (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12511)
And add Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. shermanii

MORGE
First with PLA or maybe LAF3 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2964.0;attach=7005)
And later with B. Linens

MAKE
Add CaCl2 and mix in well.
Heat milk to 32°C to 33°C. Add the cultures. Wait till pH drops 0.1.
Add rennet, mix well. Place the floc bowl.
Target flocculation is 12 minutes. Multiply this 2 or 3 to find the cutting time.
Cut to 4mm pieces (or rice size), rest and heal 10 min.
Stir and find the big pieces of curd, cut them. They may create whey-wells on the surface during aging!
Increase the temp from 32°C to 51°C (Is this in half an hour or as quickly as possible?)
Increase the temp from 51°C to 57°C in 45 minutes.
Keep the temp at 57°C and stir from time to time till the pH reaches to 6.3.
When pH is 6.3 let the curd settle at the bottom. Press under whey to make PS work better.
Transfer the curds in to press and press with 10-15 psi till the pH becomes 5.4.
Remove from the press and dry salt with %2 salt 5 or 6 times. How many days? Till dry?
Take it to cave at 10°C to 13°C for 3 to 4 weeks
Increase the temp to 16°C to 19°C for 6 to 8 weeks and smear at teh same time. Smear everday for 2 weeks and every second day then on.
Once a  healthy skin produced, take it to 11°C cave with 85% humidity for a year or so. What about humidity here? Is 85% enough? Continue smearing once a week.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Boofer on November 17, 2011, 03:09:38 PM
Very nice make instructions. Why did you specify to dry-salt instead of brining? Just curious.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: MrsKK on November 17, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
Thanks for going to the work to create the recipe!  I think I need to try some other Alpine types before attempting this one, as some of the terminology is unfamiliar.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 17, 2011, 09:17:05 PM
Very nice make instructions. Why did you specify to dry-salt instead of brining? Just curious.
Because LB said so. I am following the master  :D

... as some of the terminology is unfamiliar.
Which terminology MrsKK? Let's iron them out now so that everyone can try this cheese.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Boofer on November 17, 2011, 11:14:29 PM
Because LB said so. I am following the master  :D
But of course, Grasshopper.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: MrsKK on November 18, 2011, 02:34:58 PM
well, I guess I exaggerated.  "Morge" is really the only one I'm unfamiliar with as far as terminology goes, once I look at it again.

I've never made an alpine style cheese and should probably delve into that this winter, while I don't have any classes scheduled.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Oude Kaas on November 19, 2011, 04:18:15 AM
I just posted this (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2011/11/alpine-b-187.html) on my blog. Not exactly comte, but might be of interest.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on November 19, 2011, 05:47:48 PM
Comte Recipe – metric

MILK
20 litres of skimmed cow’s milk, store bought
CaCl2 is required as the milk is pasteurised

OK, but understand what you will make will not really be a comte. I doubt you would get close, not out of anything you do or don't, but out of the differences in location and milk. It should still be very edible, though.
Quote
CULTURES
Option 1
Streptococcus Salivarius Thermophilus (20 DCU - per 100 litres) (TA60 ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12521[/url]))

Lactobacillus Helveticus (5 DCU - per 100 litres) (LH100 from Danisco but one more different bacteria comes in with it which actually might help as it is Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis which you (LB) listed at first reply ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=6387.0[/url]))

Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. shermanii (0,05 – 0,1 unit - per 100 litres)

And LD Type starter, that is Flora Danica ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2967.0;attach=7025[/url])

Yes, this is one very classic approach
Quote
Option 2 – LD Type and PS
Danisco Choozit Feta B LYO ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12511[/url])
And add Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. Shermanii

This might work, but I don't know the ratio in Feta B. Overall, I feel like you will not get the right flavor balance here, especially without native FHL (without raw milk).
Quote
Option 3 – O Type and PS
Danisco Choozit ALP LYO ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2981.0;attach=12511[/url])
And add Propionibacterium freudenreichii subsp. shermanii

This should also be OK.

Overall, what you have to remember is that Comte flavor comes largely from mesophilic lactobacilli. Sure, LH plays a part, and so do various delbrueckii, but it is the FHL like rhamnosus, casei, paracasei, etc that give it nuance and depth. You could get away with in in pasteurized milk by using specific strains of LH, to help with that nutty flavor development.
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MORGE
First with PLA or maybe LAF3 ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2964.0;attach=7005[/url])
And later with B. Linens

Why are you thinking of cascading the wash? It should cascade naturally. Make up a stinky one and it will have everything you need.
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MAKE
Add CaCl2 and mix in well.
Heat milk to 32°C to 33°C. Add the cultures. Wait till pH drops 0.1.

You don't really need to wait for .1. You need to try and get the acidity curve right for the culture, and the set time to coincide with the make. I don't have good guidance because I don't know how your blend will play out. Typically, for gruyere types I try to line it all up so I am draining at no less than 6.4, preferably around 6.45.
Quote
Add rennet, mix well. Place the floc bowl.
Target flocculation is 12 minutes. Multiply this 2 or 3 to find the cutting time.

Longer is fine. 15 mins is OK. High pH, so it sometimes takes more time.
Quote
Cut to 4mm pieces (or rice size), rest and heal 10 min.

Good, this is exactly right. if curd is strong, don't heal as long
Quote
Stir and find the big pieces of curd, cut them. They may create whey-wells on the surface during aging!

Moisture gradients exist not only on the surface. Vital to have even size curd.
Quote
Increase the temp from 32°C to 51°C (Is this in half an hour or as quickly as possible?)

I think you are starting to state make details that are not detailed enough. Here's the schedule for comte (all gruyeres are similar to this):

after healing:
First phase: stir gently to help firm up the curd and start syneresis. This is before scalding. Do this for 10-15 mins.
Second phase: start scalding to around the temp you listed, or a tad higher, to 53-55C. And yes, it's a fast scald over 30 mins.
Third phase: This is post scalding, where you are targetting the right curd moisture at the right acidity. Meaning, this is the artisan skill. If you have overdry curds, but your acidity is not there, you barely stir, and let it settle. If the curd is moist, too moist, you stir and try to get that moisture down. If the acidity is running away, you try and wrap it up and press as soon as you can. But the point is that you turn off the heat and get the curds down to the right point over the next 15-45 mins. Wide range is because of variability.
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Increase the temp from 51°C to 57°C in 45 minutes.

Eh, you could, but I don't see the point.
Quote
Keep the temp at 57°C and stir from time to time till the pH reaches to 6.3.

This is too low of a pH for me. Cheese will be decent, but I like a high calcium, high drain comte style. And stir schedule is not from time to time, it depends on curd moisture.
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When pH is 6.3 let the curd settle at the bottom. Press under whey to make PS work better.

Under whey press is key. 6.3 is too low for me.
Quote
Transfer the curds in to press and press with 10-15 psi till the pH becomes 5.4.

This is quite decent.
Quote
Remove from the press and dry salt with %2 salt 5 or 6 times. How many days? Till dry?

Yes, to form that thicker outer rind. And honestly, I would brine. Less work.
Quote
Take it to cave at 10°C to 13°C for 3 to 4 weeks

This is about right. Let's clarify comte aging:

First phase: at 50-55F, for 20-30 days. Usually 3 weeks, or a few days over. This is to get the curd to have that initial fuse and prep it for warm room. Read over the alpine thread where I respond to Jim (NE Cheesemaking) and explain the dynamics.
Second phase: at around 65F, for 40-55 days. This is when you move to the warm room for propionic action, and where you can also start the morge. By this time, there should be a decent rind on the cheese, and you can start the wash.
Third phase: back to 50-55F, keep washing with morge.
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Increase the temp to 16°C to 19°C for 6 to 8 weeks and smear at teh same time. Smear everday for 2 weeks and every second day then on.
Once a  healthy skin produced, take it to 11°C cave with 85% humidity for a year or so. What about humidity here? Is 85% enough? Continue smearing once a week.

Your second part is of affinage is decent. Overall, you want humidity to be pretty high when you first start with the morge. And after, there's no single right answer. During extended aging, you are really trying to balance the rate of moisture loss, so the wheels do not dry out. 85% will work. Somewhere around 90% is better. But in a small cave like you will use, do the best you can. The dynamics are different anyway, so 85% vs 90% doesn't make a dramatic difference. Keep it dry enough so it doesn't turn into a limburger or have a wet rind.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 20, 2011, 10:20:25 PM
Thanks LB, great info, great explanation.

As you recommend, I will brine it rather than dry salting.

I am thinking an 18% brine at 14°C (~57°F) and pH4.7 to 5 and with a time calculation of 12 hours per 1000Gram (~2.2lb) of cheese. (Thinking about parmesan)

Is this OK?
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on November 20, 2011, 11:14:53 PM
Saturated brine. You want a good crust so you can start with the morge and have it penetrate slowly over time.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 21, 2011, 02:03:55 AM
Cool. thanks
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 24, 2013, 10:14:57 PM
Reviving an old topic but for anyone who is interested in, I have written the complete recipe on my blog.

http://homecheesemaker.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/comte-recipe/ (http://homecheesemaker.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/comte-recipe/)

I will be making this cheese again this weekend.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 25, 2013, 03:06:58 AM
Looks really nice, mate. Cheese to you for the efforts and sticking to it. As you pointed out, the affinage can be tough on a small scale and is really important in the final flavor profile.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on October 28, 2013, 02:59:21 AM
Thanks LB  ;D
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on January 07, 2014, 08:45:06 PM
Hi Gurkan.

I am going to give this a go in the next couple of weeks - any pearls of wisdom you would like to send my way before I dive in?  What do you think the minimum ageing time is to get decent flavour?

Cheers.

NV.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on January 07, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
Hi NV,

Keep up the humidity in the cave. Never let it go below 85%. Aging is the most difficult part. You would get decent flavour after 6 months depending on the size of wheel. A year is optimum I think.

Good Luck.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on February 11, 2014, 03:36:19 AM
Thanks for that Gurkan.  I made a wheel and I think it is about 25kg.  Its big enough!

Keeping the humidity above 85% shouldn't be a problem - we live on the edge of a rainforest.

Your blog recipe has a small amount of flora danica in it.  How much did you put in?  I was talking to a comte maker from France and he seemed to think it was not necessary since the milk is heated to 54 and it would be killed anyway.  I understand that but since they work with raw milk there would be some naturally occurring mesophiles in there anyway - and Im keen to replicate this as close as possible.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

NV.
Title: Re: Wanted: French Comte Recipe
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 11, 2014, 04:13:00 AM
Wow, 25Kg. Man that is massive.
I guess Linuxboy can answer your question.