CheeseForum.org » Forum

GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Aging Cheese, Everything Except Caves => Topic started by: steffb503 on November 18, 2013, 05:24:26 AM

Title: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: steffb503 on November 18, 2013, 05:24:26 AM
I typically vac seal my cheeses but upon some reading, I feel like I would like to try this method.
I don't seem to find any real how-to.
My favorite makes are Edam, Emmenthal, and Gouda.
Seems like these all do well with a cream coating.
I am sure you all have discussed this before so if there is a link I would greatly appreciate it.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: linuxboy on November 18, 2013, 09:32:13 AM
What do you want to know? You paint it on, making sure the rind is dry to the touch and the cheese does not weep residual whey.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Spoons on November 18, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
Just remember that the cheese still breath with the cream coating on. It's not as air tight as a vac seal or even a wax coating. Some people add wax after the cream coating to prevent breathing and rind development.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Digitalsmgital on November 18, 2013, 11:25:39 PM
I have had some difficulty finding PVA at the usual sources. I don't need a 55 gallon barrel, just enough to cover a few small batches of gouda. Online, or in the Los Angeles area would be fine too.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: steffb503 on November 19, 2013, 05:33:17 AM
So when the rind is sufficiently dry I simply paint on the cream?
Do I need to do anything else like wax or seal. I do not seem to have the set up for wax at all.
But with just a vac seal I do not have a defined rind. I love the look of cheese with the cream.
Will the cheese I mentioned do well with just a cream?
How long can the age ? Is there a point where they breath too much?
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: linuxboy on November 19, 2013, 07:07:10 AM
Quote
So when the rind is sufficiently dry I simply paint on the cream?
Yes
Quote
Do I need to do anything else like wax or seal.
What do you mean by need to? You don't even need to use cheese cream. Does it help to stop moisture loss if you wax or seal? Yes. Should you? Up to you.
Quote
Will the cheese I mentioned do well with just a cream?
Moisture loss will slow down by 50% or so.
Quote
How long can the age ?
Until the cheese is done. It's the same as normal aging. using cream helps conserve more moisture and sell more water in the cheese
Quote
Is there a point where they breath too much?
It's a constant rate of loss, varying with cave humidity.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: steffb503 on November 19, 2013, 07:36:53 AM
Thank You
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: jwalker on November 19, 2013, 08:25:22 AM
I have had some difficulty finding PVA at the usual sources. I don't need a 55 gallon barrel, just enough to cover a few small batches of gouda. Online, or in the Los Angeles area would be fine too.


I get mine at cheeseandyougurtmaking.com , they are very good and the shipping is fast.

http://cheeseandyogurtmaking.com/cheese-making-supplies/cheese-making-waxes-coatings/white-coating-for-cheese-making.html (http://cheeseandyogurtmaking.com/cheese-making-supplies/cheese-making-waxes-coatings/white-coating-for-cheese-making.html)

I had one break during shipping , it was dropped or something , they replaced it right away , great people to deal with.

It costs about $14 or so for a 2 pound container , it goes a long way.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: jwalker on November 19, 2013, 08:55:16 AM
Or check this out:

I don't know if one could buy these on a small scale though , it would be interesting.

Natural cheese ripening with Pack-Age™
Pack-Age™ is a cheese ripening bag that naturally ripens your cheese – with no coating needed. There’s nothing else on the market like it, because Pack-Age™ not only gives your cheese natural taste, texture and a dry rind, but will also helps you increase volume, reduce waste – and cost.
440-package
Because Pack-Age™ is perm-selective it supplies just enough moisture to hard and semi-hard cheeses while maintaining an effective oxygen barrier against mold-growth on the surface. And this level of protection grows even more when you use Pack-Age™ in combination with our natural yeast and mold inhibiter, Delvo®Cid.

Today we have several European cheese producers using Pack-Age™ commercially; while various medium sized and larger cheese makers are now testing it for different cheese types. What’s more, in extensive testing the Dutch Dairy Research Institute (NIZO) found that the cheeses ripened with Pack-Age™ retained their flavor and texture despite reducing moisture loss by 50%.

Benefits
Natural ripening with no need for coating
Improved quality by more consistent drying through cross-section
Improved yield with less moisture loss and no cutting loss
More sustainable with a reduced carbon footprint
Added value through greater volume, realizing a dryrind instead of a thick dry crust.
Technical info
Traditionally, there are two main processes for ripening hard and semi-hard cheeses like Gouda, Edam, Manchego and Emmental. The first, called natural ripening, involves coating the cheese after brining so that the cheese air-dries and a hard crust is formed during ripening. The second involves brining followed by airtight packaging, so that the cheese stays soft and doesn’t form a crust. Although they provide some benefits, both processes also have drawbacks in terms of cost, yield, taste and texture.

Pack-Age™ helps overcome these drawbacks by combining the best of both worlds giving cheese makers tighter control of both the moisture level and the gases (like oxygen) passing through. The film's permeability enables the cheeses to be dried naturally in air during ripening so they develop their own natural taste and texture.

This new technology has been tested for taste and texture by the Dutch Dairy Research Institute (NIZO). During the ripening process, each cheese was shown to develop its own balance of taste and texture. Comparative research from the NIZO demonstrated that the Pack-Age™ film preserves this balance, even with the 50% reduction in moisture loss provided by the use of Pack-Age™ compared to naturally ripened cheese.(http://www.dsm.com/content/markets/foodandbeverages/en_US/products/preservation/pack-age/_jcr_content/par/image.img.jpg/1374486801247.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on November 19, 2013, 01:14:24 PM
JW - What's your source for this info? Is there a USA supplier or a web link?
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: linuxboy on November 19, 2013, 01:23:19 PM
Sailor, that's a DSM product (attached). talk to them.

Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Spoons on November 19, 2013, 05:34:31 PM
Is cream wax frost sensitive? I'm asking because that;s what they say on Glengarry's website, but nowhere else have I seen that posted. It's already getting a little frosty in my corner of the world, so I was wondering if it would be safe to order some this winter.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Digitalsmgital on November 19, 2013, 05:45:36 PM
Is cream wax frost sensitive? I'm asking because that;s what they say on Glengarry's website, but nowhere else have I seen that posted. It's already getting a little frosty in my corner of the world, so I was wondering if it would be safe to order some this winter.
Yeah, I see that they won't even ship it come December.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: jwalker on November 20, 2013, 09:50:57 AM
They're not far you it seems , you could have it shipped by Greyhound or other Courier and probably have it the same day.

Or drive over and pick it up if you want it bad enough .

I think it separates when frozen , so you have to be careful with it , I order extra just before November , to make sure I have enough for the winter.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: linuxboy on November 20, 2013, 10:19:41 AM
PVA tends to form a hydrogel after a frost-defrost cycle. So it's not a good idea to expose it to freezing temps.

[edit] meaning, it won't be paintable any more. It'll thicken and harden.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Spoons on November 20, 2013, 10:26:22 AM
As jwalker suggested, I'll drive down to Lancaster where Glengarry is. I'll definitely buy some squeaky cheese curds for the way back  :D A 2 hour drive for some cream... I've done crazier things. lol.

I find it very unfortunate that Glengarry is the only cheese-making retailer that mentions the frost issue.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on November 20, 2013, 02:33:16 PM
I find it very unfortunate that Glengarry is the only cheese-making retailer that mentions the frost issue.
Dairy Connection warns against freezing temps and will not ship when it gets too cold.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Spoons on December 04, 2013, 06:17:54 PM
How important is cave humidity when aging with cream wax?

I've been testing out my cave lately and I can maintain no more than a stable 78-80% relative humidity. My cave (tiny 6-bottle wine fridge) cannot fit ripening containers without sacrificing the precious little space I have. I'm trying to avoid ripening containers until I buy a bigger fridge.

So, since cream wax lets the cheese breath a bit, is 78-80% RH enough for semifirm/hard cheeses? I plan to follow in Boofer's foot steps and try a hybrid cream wax/ vac seal aging. Most natural rind recipes I've seen recommend 85-90%.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: cowboycheese on December 06, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
I've been using the cream wax now for over a year and I really like it. I put it on all my hard (esq) cheeses and wax or vac pack some time later those that I don't want to loose too much moisture with. My cave can sit around 70% so I try and plan based on what moisture loss I am OK with before or if I bag or wax. Like others have posted, just think of it as a more controlled or slower moisture loss cover that keeps the mold at bay (for a while anyway).

Based on Herman's and Boofer's postings and advice, I use three coats of cream and go from there. For some of my longer aged wheels it seems best to just keep it like that and let a dryer rind form under the cream over time. For the colby style, I want to bag it after a few weeks so it doesn't dry out too much (my dad likes it bland and moist). Boofer lets some of his wheels sit for a time and then vac bags them to cut moisture loss. He has postings where he let a natural rind develop, cleaned it off and cream coated it for more aging (for no more mold development) and then bagged that for long term aging/storing. I have two wheels that are about 3 months old that are showing some "dusting" on the surface. I'm thinking that is partly the moisture that is escaping and some calcium/salt with it.

Nothing special in the application, just pretend you are putting on a light coat of thick spar varnish. Two or three thin coats should do. Room or cave humidity and temp can make the drying time between coats longer or shorter -  just like painting your house. I sit my wheels on an upside down empty plastic tub and paint the top and sides, allow to dry 8 - 24 hrs and repeat for thee coats. Flip and paint the bottom in the same manner. I've been using only the clear product so far and it is like painting on thin white paste yet dries clear - which helps to determine when it is dry. Once you put on your first coat, you'll get the hang of it quickly.

The cream is water soluble so clean up your brush and whatnot with warm water.
Title: Re: Cheese cream? Can I get some more info
Post by: Spoons on December 06, 2013, 03:27:13 PM
So you've had no problems with a 70% RH cave? Thanks Cowboycheese! Can't wait to try it!