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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => Discussion => Topic started by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 04:56:29 AM

Title: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 04:56:29 AM
Hi,

My fiance is rather into cooking and would enjoy making his own cheese (and butter) so I want to get him everything he will need for Christmas. He will probably want to make things like Mascarpone, Brie and Red Leicester. I have tried looking into it but it seems quite complicated and so I'm not really sure what to get. So far on my list is:
Starter culture (but which...?)
Rennnet
Moulds
Cheese cloth
Scales

Is a cheese press necessary?

I have also found these two books:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/American-Farmstead-Cheese-Complete-Selling/dp/1931498776/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352532560&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/American-Farmstead-Cheese-Complete-Selling/dp/1931498776/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352532560&sr=8-1)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Easy-Home-Made-Cheese-Recipes/dp/0778802183/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352532632&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Easy-Home-Made-Cheese-Recipes/dp/0778802183/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352532632&sr=8-1)
He does like lots of detail which the first one is supposed to have, however it apparently doesn't include any recipes, hence the second. Do you think they'll be suitable?

Can anyone tell me what he'll need? Would be extremely grateful for any help  :)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 12, 2012, 05:26:00 AM
Hi Ava!
First those books. 200 Homemade cheese making recipes is a great book (IMO). I lost my copy a couple of years ago so I do not have it in front of me. I debated whether or not to mention this but I feel like I had the opinion at one point that it was not the absolute best book for starting out with- not as a solitary reference at least. I am not sure why so please take that with a grain of salt. The recipes are mostly for 4 lb cheeses (instead of 2 lb like most other hobby books here in the US), so that might be something to take into consideration. Of course, with a little math that can be overcome. I do recall liking the explanation, and the number of recipes alone is a good reason to get it. Also, Steve Shapson (www.thecheesemaker.com (http://www.thecheesemaker.com)) recommends it as his number one on his site. Personally, I would take that into consideration. I honestly cannot tell you why I have that nagging feeling in the back of my mind but felt I should mention it for the sake of honesty. It is a very good book and I do recommend it- if nothing else as a good reference or recipe book.

If nothing else, a second book is never a bad idea. I started with "Home Cheese Making" by Ricki Carroll
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Cheese-Making-Ricki-Carroll/dp/1580174647/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352697338&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Cheese-Making-Ricki-Carroll/dp/1580174647/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352697338&sr=1-1)
Great book, well written- it is still one of the first I turn to despite having a bunch of cheese books now. My only issue with it is she assumes you are using single serving direct set packets of starter. (I only know of one dedicated cheese making supply company that carries them, so they are arguably not the norm). It is a good book if that does not bother you. A little math or some time on this forum can usually help you "translate" those recipes into actual measurements of different starters.

My personal favorite right now is "Artisan Cheese Making at Home" by Mary Karlin
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Artisan-Cheese-Making-Home-World-Class/dp/1607740087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352697308&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Artisan-Cheese-Making-Home-World-Class/dp/1607740087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352697308&sr=8-1)
I like this book a lot. The explanation is excellent and well organized. The recipes seem good to me, I have only tried a couple so far. Some of them are a little different than others I have seen but that is not necessarily bad. The pictures are awesome and the organization is very well laid out.
I have one beef with this book and that is the number of typographical errors in the recipes themselves. If you have been making cheese for years, you can read between the lines and likely might not even notice them but for a beginner- this can be extremely frustrating (I had this problem a couple of times with a few typos is Ricki Carroll's book- google is your friend here). If you get this book (and I think it would be a great choice), make sure you visit her website and download the list of corrections.

Now,
"American Farmstead Cheese" I borrowed this book from the University Library years ago so it has been a while. As I recall this is more of a book on how to set up a small time Farmstead Creamery. It is not a book on cheese making per se- it is more about the logistics and business side of things (again, this is from memory). If you have cows and goats and such and want to make a small business out of it- this book would be good. If you just want to make cheese, I would hold off.

I am sure others might have book suggestions, those are mine.

I have a list of supplies and ingredients that I give to people I meet who are new to cheese making and want to get started (I am not exactly quite about cheese making around my friends). Let me look for that list and follow up. Of course, by then perhaps someone else might chime in with a good list.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 12, 2012, 05:41:02 AM
He will probably want to make things like Mascarpone, Brie and Red Leicester. I have tried looking into it but it seems quite complicated and so I'm not really sure what to get. So far on my list is:
Starter culture (but which...?)
Rennnet
Moulds
Cheese cloth
Scales

Is a cheese press necessary?


Actually, now that I noticed this, I can tell you what you need right now.

First, for all of these you will need the following general supplies.

-A good thermometer (get a couple, just in case... I say that based on experience...)
-You will want two stock pots to form a water bath (or double boiler is the name I guess). I use an inner pot which holds 12 quarts- this if good for 2lb hard cheeses. For the outer I have a 16 quart stock pot (might be 18 quart). The exact numbers are not so important. The inner has to hold the amount of milk you intend to process and the outer has to hold the inner pot and enough water to maintain temperatures and warm the inner pot up slowly.

Now, if you are on a budget, you can get away with just using one pot and heating your milk/curds directly- this is not ideal and will not yield the best results- but it can be done. You can also use your kitchen sink as a warm water bath- I did that too. I very successfully made quite a bit of cheese this way in the beginning.

-You will need something to cut the curds with. This can be a long knife. I am sure you/he have something like this around.
-You will also want measuring spoons which can measure fractions of a teaspoon (for cultures, rennet, et all...).
- You should get some fine weave cheese cloth or butter muslin. This needs to be fine weave (The butter muslin I used to get was 90 threads per inch). The "cheese cloth" we have in the grocery stores in the US is not acceptable for cheese making. Not sure about the UK.
- Some bamboo sushi mats or cheese drying mats (particularly for the brie).
- Cheese wax (for the Red Leicester)
- Calcium Chloride is a good thing to have around if using pasteurized and homogenized milk but you can skip it if need be.
- A slotted spoon or skimmer for stirring and scooping out curds. Again, nothing fancy here.

For brie specifically (I had included Red Leicester in this section before for some reason...)
Get some small spray bottles for spraying on cultures. I would get a few.
You want a hoop mold big enough for brie. You can make this if you want to save some money. Depending on the size of the brie you want- get a food grade tube of some sort about 12-20 cm in diameter and about 10 or so cm in height. You do not need a press for brie.
You will want to get the mold cultures "Penicillium Candidum", "Geotrichum Candidum" some people also like to add a little bit of "Bacteria linens" for flavor (I would consider this non-essential).
For starter culture, a good mesophilic culture. I would get Flora Danica/Aroma B or MA 4001. Flora Danica/Aroma B is often recommended for cheese like brie because the flavor is described as a little more "buttery". MA 4001 is more of a general purpose culture. It has a little bit of thermophilic bacteria in it to speed up ripening a tad as well. Most mesophilic cultures would be fine though. You could even start off with cultured buttermilk at first and go from there. Buttermilk is a mesophilic cultured dairy produce- essentially the same bacteria is used. See this site for more details: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/cheese/cheese_course/cheese_course.htm (http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/cheese/cheese_course/cheese_course.htm)

Mascarpone is a fresh cheese. I have seen a few different recipes but they are usually acidified and coagulated using an acid (lemon juice, vinegar, citric acid or tartaric acid are the 4 I have seen). I have only seen one recipe which uses a starter, that is one of the recipes in Carroll's book.

Red Leicester is a hard cheese. In addition to your general equipment and a mesophilic starter, you will need  some kind of press and some kind of mold (consider the size of the cheese you want to make when considering the dimensions of the mold. Feel free to run it by us!). Your press needs to be capable of pressing at least 4 PSI (about 50 lbs for a 2 lb cheese with a 4 in diameter). This does not have to be a fancy expensive press- you can rig something up. A stack of books works if you can pile them up safely and get enough pressure.
Also, for the signature redish color, you will want cheese coloring- usually annatto based.

For all of these, you also need cheese salt (or kosher salt). Basic idea here is you want iodine free salt, preferably free of other additives. Kosher salt seems to be ok.

- You mentioned scales (As in kitchen scales I assume?). These are nice and good for weighing out ingredients. If you are on a budget, I would say skip it.
- Eventually, a pH meter is handy, but again I would worry about that later.

I hope this list helps. My suggestion again- get some recipes (like those three listed) and see what they entail/require. Another thought, search around here on CF and see what people's experiences have been with particular cheeses. Brie for instance has a reputation of being a little more of an advanced cheese since there is more room for error. It may not be the best to start with. (Then again, for some people it is not that bad. You never know...)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 12, 2012, 07:42:54 AM
Oh, another thought, some places offer beginners kits. Some are better than others but might be worth looking in to....

And now that I think of it. For brie in particular, you will probably want some kind of ripening box. Nothing fancy here, just needs to keep humidity up but allow some airflow. I use a plastic shoe storage box. The cost me about a dollar and are really flimsy but perfect for this purpose!

Ok, done.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 09:22:37 AM
MightyMouse, thanks so much! You've been really helpful   :D

I'm glad you told me about American Farmstead Cheese, I'll miss that out and get Home Cheese Making instead.

For all of these, you also need cheese salt (or kosher salt). Basic idea here is you want iodine free salt, preferably free of other additives. Kosher salt seems to be ok.
We have sea salt - I've never seen Kosher salt, but it sounds like it might be the same thing. On the packet it says there's nothing added, so do you think that'd work?

- Calcium Chloride is a good thing to have around if using pasteurized and homogenized milk but you can skip it if need be.
Is pasteurised or raw milk better for making cheese?

Regarding the ripening box, will it need to be stored in the fridge?

I'm going to look for the stuff you mentioned now and have a read of the forum. Thank you again  :) (And sorry for the further questions!)

Kind of looking forward to this myself, we both really love cheese  ;D
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Shazah on November 12, 2012, 09:51:31 AM
Hi Ava
I have just purchased a book called The Cheesemaker's Apprentice by Sasha Davies with David Bleckmann. 

I so wish I had access to a book like this when I first started making cheese.  It has some great recipes, pictures of the various processes and explanations about why it's important to follow the instructions. eg ingredients, equipment, curd size, draining, pressing, wrapping etc. It also has some good interviews with cheesemakers from Europe and America and it has measurements in both imperial and metric.

It's not just a great book for any cheesemaking enthusiast, it's one you will want to read from cover to cover.

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 11:40:31 AM
Hi Ava
I have just purchased a book called The Cheesemaker's Apprentice by Sasha Davies with David Bleckmann. 

I so wish I had access to a book like this when I first started making cheese.  It has some great recipes, pictures of the various processes and explanations about why it's important to follow the instructions. eg ingredients, equipment, curd size, draining, pressing, wrapping etc. It also has some good interviews with cheesemakers from Europe and America and it has measurements in both imperial and metric.

It's not just a great book for any cheesemaking enthusiast, it's one you will want to read from cover to cover.

Cheers
Sharon

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have a look at that :)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Tiarella on November 12, 2012, 12:15:42 PM
Hi Ava,
My favorite book is Mastering Artisan Cheesemakinghelp by Gianaclis Caldwell.  The book bt Ricki Carroll has a number of typos in the amounts in recipes plus isn't as helpful in certain other areas such as mold choices.  It does have some good illustrations of certain steps but most books have that. 

The big issue with milk is not using ultra pasteurized milk.  Raw is best if you have a good clean source and you could pasteurize that if you wanted to.......I haven't ever.

Many of us have creatively rigged pressing options for the first while.  Brie doesn't need pressing at all.

Many suggest using plastic mats rather than the sushi mats because it's hard to prevent contamination caused by molds being absorbed by the bamboo.  Medium weave matting is best.

A good website for the very beginning is Green Gavin's cheese site.  it's something like www.littlegreencheese.com (http://www.littlegreencheese.com). He has video tutorials and although he doesn't get into some of the finer points of srtisanal cheese making he's a reassuring starter resource.  A his Caerphilly cheese recipe is a nice mild hard cheese that can be eaten after only 3 weeks aging and only needs simple ingredients.

I started using two pots to create a double boiler but use a pot set into warm wTer in the sink mostly now.

For thermometers I suggest a digital one.  They aren't expensive and are much easier when monitoring temp.

I'd also recommend the mundane addition of some dish towels that are only used when cheese making.....I seem to go though a lot as there is a need to lay sterilized thing out, wash and dry hands a zillion times, etc.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 12:52:17 PM
Tiarella, thanks for the tips, I will have a look at the book you've suggested as well.

I'll definitely not get the UHT milk. I'm going to look for raw milk but am not sure I'll be able to find any around here...

Many suggest using plastic mats rather than the sushi mats because it's hard to prevent contamination caused by molds being absorbed by the bamboo.  Medium weave matting is best.

Would these work? : http://www.cheesemaking.co.uk/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?product=Cheese%20matting&cart_id=8206791_23957 (http://www.cheesemaking.co.uk/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?product=Cheese%20matting&cart_id=8206791_23957)

So, live cultured buttermilk can be used instead of any starter culture? It would be a lot cheaper... and my partner has asked me to ask whether the same culture can sort of be continued so you don't need to buy more? Apparently this is done with yoghurt?
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: SpargePervert on November 12, 2012, 01:20:17 PM
Ava,

I'm based in England too & have only just started making cheese,  raw milk is hard to come by in London but I seem to have had good results using 1/2 Jersey Gold Top ( this is unhomogenised & is available in most supermarkets) ,1/2 Normal Whole Milk.  (I also have added a small pot of full cream to my Roquefort recipe - not sure if this is necessary though).

Having bought equipment recently I would be wary of starter kits,  they always seem a bit overpriced for what you get.  Have a look around and price up what you need & see what works best for you.

I've had good experience with the following site,  which stocks pretty much everything you will need:  http://gnltd.co.uk/goat-nutrition/cheese-making-products.html (http://gnltd.co.uk/goat-nutrition/cheese-making-products.html)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 12, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
Ava,

I'm based in England too & have only just started making cheese,  raw milk is hard to come by in London but I seem to have had good results using 1/2 Jersey Gold Top ( this is unhomogenised & is available in most supermarkets) ,1/2 Normal Whole Milk.  (I also have added a small pot of full cream to my Roquefort recipe - not sure if this is necessary though).

Having bought equipment recently I would be wary of starter kits,  they always seem a bit overpriced for what you get.  Have a look around and price up what you need & see what works best for you.

I've had good experience with the following site,  which stocks pretty much everything you will need:  [url]http://gnltd.co.uk/goat-nutrition/cheese-making-products.html[/url] ([url]http://gnltd.co.uk/goat-nutrition/cheese-making-products.html[/url])


Ooh, thanks, never saw that when I was looking before. :) I'll have a look for the Jersey Gold Top milk.

You will want to get the mold cultures "Penicillium Candidum", "Geotrichum Candidum"

(Sorry, another question...) Will he need both of those?
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Tiarella on November 12, 2012, 04:29:50 PM
Keep asking questions since it's the best way to get answers!   ;D.  I have made Brie without the Geo and thought it turned out wonderfully but there are those who insist that it's better with Geo.  You can make it either way.

The cheese matting page you posted has a wide range of mesh it looks like.  it's a bit difficult for me to see them clearly even enlarged but the first mesh looks like my favorite ones that I have.  if you can, find someone who sells by the lineal foot or whatever off a roll.  it's cheaper and you can cut your own bigger pieces.  That is handy when using a plastic box (to ripen in, aids in controlling moisture levels) and wanting a piece that fits properly so that you can put several small Brie cheeses in it.  I usually put some upside down lids under my mesh to raise it up off the bottom of the box.  Some people use the plastic grids made for large fluorescent lights and cut that to fit.  I'd still put mesh over that since I doubt that is food grade plastic.

Hope you aren't overwhelmed.  You truly don't need all that much and you can add items as you need them.  All you really need is a good pot that will hold however much milk you'll be using, a long curd cutting knife (which again can be any long skinny knife that will reach the bottom of your pot), a digital thermometer, some mats, a cookie cooling rack (you can put the mesh over that on a cookie tray with raised edges to catch the draining whey, cheesecloth, and some molds to put the curd into.  (options for those depend upon what you want to make).  For ingredients, other than milk you'll need the cultures listed in your recipe and salt.  I use sea salt and have good luck with that.  The cookie rack and tray set up I mention would be used for cheeses that just drain instead of being pressed.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 12, 2012, 07:23:00 PM
Many suggest using plastic mats rather than the sushi mats because it's hard to prevent contamination caused by molds being absorbed by the bamboo.  Medium weave matting is best.

Another problem with bamboo is that some mats can impart a bamboo like flavor to your cheese- particularly when new. I generally run them through the dishwasher a time or two before using them. I have never used plastic cheese mats but would like to try in the near future now that I am doing more mold ripened cheeses.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: margaretsmall on November 12, 2012, 09:15:36 PM
If you can find one within a reasonable distance, the best gift of all would be a beginners cheesemaking course - in one day you learn the basics of cheesemaking, and lots of stuff which are difficult to grasp even from the best of books.  I'd suggest the Caldwell book above the others.
Margaret
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 13, 2012, 05:03:59 AM
Okay, I think I'll leave the Geotrichum Candidum and if he decides he wants to try using it I'll buy him some then.

Thanks for the advice about mats. Might have a look on ebay and see if they have any rolls.

I'm thinking of getting two of the 100x100x100 open ended moulds on page 2 here: http://www.cheesemaking.co.uk/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?product=Cheese%20Moulds&cart_id=831186_6073 (http://www.cheesemaking.co.uk/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?product=Cheese%20Moulds&cart_id=831186_6073) - are these right for brie? I'm not sure what to get for red leicester - does it need to be steel? Can only seem to find plastic moulds  :-\

Flora Danica seems to be unavailable in the UK, so I'm going to get the MA 4001.

If you can find one within a reasonable distance, the best gift of all would be a beginners cheesemaking course - in one day you learn the basics of cheesemaking, and lots of stuff which are difficult to grasp even from the best of books.  I'd suggest the Caldwell book above the others.
Margaret

The courses I've come across are in more rural areas of England (too far away), though it's not really his sort of thing anyway. Good suggestion though.

EDIT - Actually, I'm now looking at these moulds instead: http://gnltd.co.uk/cheese-making-mold-13-open-cylinder.html (http://gnltd.co.uk/cheese-making-mold-13-open-cylinder.html)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Tiarella on November 13, 2012, 01:28:07 PM
You can make a Brie style cheese with most of those molds but traditionally they are more like your second choice having smaller amount of drainage holes and straight sides.  How many you'll want depends upon how many gallons will be made into Brie at a time and what type of milk it is since different milk produce different amounts of curds.  Most molds are plastic, not steel.  Steel would be needed for cheeses with huge pressure required but I can't think of any cheese that doesn't have a correspondingly sturdy plastic mold available.  Maybe someone else will chime in on this. 

I think  MM100 is nice for a Brie culture choice also.  Or Meso lll by Abiosa       I don't think MA4000 series is suggested for Brie but I could be wrong on this. 

you can see a very simple mold solution here at this "how to" post on a blog:
http://makingsenseofthings.info/2010/12/how-to-make-brie-cheese-at-home/ (http://makingsenseofthings.info/2010/12/how-to-make-brie-cheese-at-home/)
I think the details were added into notes when this post appeared as a guest post on Rikki's blog.  See here and also see all the cheese varieties listed down the right hand side of the page.  These are all links to different recipes by different folks.
http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com/search/label/Brie (http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com/search/label/Brie)

They do a very simple version that some cheese experts will surely turn their noses up at but I started with it and thought it was tasty.  There are missing details in the post but I think they are answered in the comments below.  (things such as rennet amount, etc.) 

Also, there is a forum member  (screen name is iratherfly) who sells all cheesemaking supplies and ships worldwide.  He is helpful and can get you stuff if you can't find it there in the UK.

Don't by mats by the roll on eBay unless they are specifically for cheese.  You want food grade and also, the needlepoint matting that some folks use doesn't drain as well because it's not a "woven" style grid so the whey just sits in the little square holes rather than draining away.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 13, 2012, 05:49:38 PM
MM100 would be good too. It is sometimes suggested (by vendors at least) for cheeses like brie. It has the same bacteria in it as MA 4001/4002 (though I would imagine in different ratios) but does not have S. thermophilus.

I don't think MA4000 series is suggested for Brie but I could be wrong on this.

Where did you hear that? Would you mind suggesting a resource because to my knowledge the MA4000 series is a general starter that works fine for semi-softs. At least that is what all of my sources say. In fact, at least one vendor even explicitly states on their web page (in the description for MA4001/4002) that:

"Used for a variety of hard and semi-hard cheeses including Roquefort, Cambozola, Castello Blue, Colby, Cheddar, Gouda and Brick cheeses with all types of milk. Can be used to make Camembert & Brie."

This person is a beginner. Just about any meso culture will work just fine for starting out. IMO, it's better to start simple with a good versatile starter rather than choose the "ideal" starter for each individual cheese of interest  which can get very confusing and in the end is really more the subject of personal opinion then it is real hard science(Granted I did mention FD/AB for brie- I probably should have made clear that I was not nessasarily suggesting it for other cheeses. FD/AB does seem to acidify differently than other mesos. Might be better to start with the typical case). If Ava's fiance then wants to get very specific, they can do so then but it is better right now to focus on the process and worry less about the fine tuning with absolute specific bacteria starters. MA 4001/4002 will be more than acceptable (IMO), I imagine MM 100 would be as well (even for cheeses besides brie).

Then again, we could always call in the experts on this one, eh Tiarella  ;)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: ukdavid on November 14, 2012, 02:43:55 PM
Hi Ava

I am also in the UK and am new to cheese making,so cannot be of much help there. However, If your  fiance is serious about cooking I should think about also getting him Culinary Artistry by a friends of mine Andrew Dornenhburg and Karen Page. you may have to get it on Amazon as I have not seen it for sale over here, but my ancient stained copy is a permanent fixture in my kitchen. It is not a recipe book as such, but, I an sure he will, like me never let it leave his side.

Good luck with the cheese making

Regards

David 
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 16, 2012, 01:58:49 PM
Sorry about the delayed reply.

Tiarella, thank you for the links, going to take a look at them now.

I will have another think about the starter culture. I did eventually find Flora Danica on Ebay, but the shipping was a bit expensive. May get some another time, though. Just to check, buttermilk culture wouldn't give the cheese a more buttery taste, like Flora Danica, would it? I was also thinking that it might be a good idea to get a culture he could also use for the other cheeses he wants to make. That said, I don't want the taste to suffer.

David, that book looks interesting, I'll have a think about getting it  :D
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: ukdavid on November 16, 2012, 03:36:31 PM
Best of luck with your search
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 16, 2012, 04:04:31 PM
Sorry about the delayed reply.

Tiarella, thank you for the links, going to take a look at them now.

I will have another think about the starter culture. I did eventually find Flora Danica on Ebay, but the shipping was a bit expensive. May get some another time, though. Just to check, buttermilk culture wouldn't give the cheese a more buttery taste, like Flora Danica, would it? I was also thinking that it might be a good idea to get a culture he could also use for the other cheeses he wants to make. That said, I don't want the taste to suffer.

David, that book looks interesting, I'll have a think about getting it  :D

If you want Flora Danica but cannot find it- keep an eye out for 'Aroma B' they are essentially the same. Pepsi vs. Coke
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Spellogue on November 16, 2012, 06:05:08 PM
Here are my thoughts:

I was very happy with the kits that I bought.  My wife first bought me a simple goat cheese kit through Hoeger's (the quintessential goat husbandry supply company). It was sourced from New England cheese supply.  It was rudimentary, but got me started on a shoestring.  I still use the  cup shaped  chèvre molds with regularity and some of the other supplies on occassion. As my Cheesemaking interest advanced I bought the larger Camembert/blue cheese kit from thecheesemaker.com (Steve Shapson).  I searched online supply stores quite a bit before making the purchase.  It turned out to be the best value for me.  I added a few other things to the order that I wanted to be able to make a wider variety of cheeses, e.g. A tomme mold, some pyramid molds, some thermophillic culture, b. linens, cheese wax ...   The larger order  at the time got me free shipping.  If you look around you might find a kit that suits the two of you.

I find MM100 to be the best "all-purpose" meso starter, if there is such a thing.  Flora Danica/Aroma B ismoore specific in its application.  It's often used as an addition to other starters.  I might have ordered a straight sided (rather than tapered) tomme mold as I make smaller cheeses and the tapered mold requires at least a 2-1/2 gallon batch or the follower will stop short of your desired press completion.  The Camembert molds are handy for lots of styles.  I'll probably add more.  I still use large yogurt tubs that I perforate with a hot nail in a pinch.

Cheese presses are a near necessity for true cheddars, but they are expensive, and you can improvise with weights for most other cheeses.  I have been getting very good results using lighter pressures than Mary Karlin's book suggests.  (I use mostly raw goats milk).  Many delightful cheese require no pressing at all.

Great to see your active support of your  boyfriend's interests.  I'm sure you'll enjoy the results.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: BobE102330 on November 17, 2012, 12:25:59 PM
Ava, nobody seems to have addressed your salt question. Do not use sea salt. You want pure sodium chloride which sea salt is not.

On this side of the pond kosher salt also has an anti-caking agent which makes it unsuitable for cheese use. If you can find pickling salt it is pure salt at least Morton brand in the US is. Cheese salt is flaked and dissolves more easily if you can find it.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on November 17, 2012, 03:49:26 PM
Spellogue - thanks for the advice; when I looked at the kits, though, it seemed that you get less for the price you could get all the individual stuff for. I'm a bit fussy about this sort of thing too, so want control over every single thing I'm buying  :P

Did you mean the mould I linked to is tapered?  :-\ It looks quite straight to me...

You want pure sodium chloride which sea salt is not.
Why?
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: BobE102330 on November 17, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
Sea salt includes a number of different salts and other trace minerals.  That's why it tastes different than table salt. 
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sea_salt-e_hg.svg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sea_salt-e_hg.svg)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Tiarella on November 17, 2012, 11:00:32 PM
I have only used sea salt so far in over 40 cheeses and I haven't noticed any problems.  I haven't done a controlled experiment to contrast the two.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Spellogue on November 20, 2012, 05:16:53 AM
The kit I bought from thecheesemaker.com was cheaper than the sum of it's parts by about $35 not counting the free shipping, at the time.  I'm particular about getting a good deal as well.  As much as I already had a cheese thermometer the one included in the kit was a better one, and having two can be handy.  My total order was a little over $300USD if I recall.  It included enough rennet, starter culture, and mold spore to make about 75 lbs of cheese by my estimates.  I was skeptical of the value of the ripening box it included, but it included fitted draining mats and is really quite handy. I ended up saving myself more than 50 bucks.  But I'll agree that with many retailers the kits may be more expensive than buying a la carte, and many other kits I looked at included products that were not what I really wanted.

The taper on my tomme mold is very slight, hardly noticeable on casual inspection but enough to stop the progress of the follower just beyond the halfway point.  He sells the straight-sided and tapered one each labeled as such.  By the dimensions provided one the ones I viewed on the moorland's site, they look to be straight sided.

I use sea salt for almost all of my brines and dry salting.  It's what I regularly have on hand.  I haven't had any problems using it either.  I run the coarse sea salt through a grinder.  I'm not using fluer de sel or mined himalayan pink here, I use a relatively inexpensive variety that I buy at the grocery next to the table salt.  It contains no anticaking agents. The commercial grade sea salt certainly has some other trace elements in it, but not nearly to the level that many of those pricey grey sea salts contain.  (Of course all those elements in the high end salts are what make them such wonderfully complex condiments, yet rather bad choices for cheesemaking.).
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: ukdavid on November 20, 2012, 09:34:31 AM
Hi again Ava

The sea salt we use is from Tesco (I think) it is Saxa coarse sea salt 100% natural. It is also pretty cheap. For cooking I use Malden sea salt, but that would be prohibitively expensive for making up brine.

Also this page may be helpful for an American/UK starter comparison. It explains it here http://www.artisancheesekitchen.com/2012/homemade-cheese-diary/book-review-artisan-cheese-making-at-home (http://www.artisancheesekitchen.com/2012/homemade-cheese-diary/book-review-artisan-cheese-making-at-home)

 :)

We have now got 7 one pound cheese in out cheese cave. and having fun making it.

 It took a bit of searching around to find all the kit we needed here in the UK (I say that but we only started making Hard cheeses on the 8th October) and are hooked. We have now ordered a 27 liter milk pasteurizer with an automatic temperature control, that can also be used for cheese making. It means that we will not be stuck with just our two gallon stock pot that can only produce two pounds at a time. It (IMHO)will  take almost the same amount of time to make double with the new pot.

Hope that helps.

Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on November 20, 2012, 04:22:55 PM
Not sure where to find aroma B or Flora Danica in the US, but this company has a bunch of the MM and MA series:
http://www.orchard-dairy.co.uk/item/Cultures-for-Soft-%26-Mould-Ripened-Cheese/MM.htm (http://www.orchard-dairy.co.uk/item/Cultures-for-Soft-%26-Mould-Ripened-Cheese/MM.htm)

I find it interesting that you guys have a harder time finding the same cheese cultures over there. Particularly given that Danisco (manufacture MM/MA/TA series) and Chr Hansen (manufacture Flora Danica) are both based in Europe. Any idea why? Are they just not as widely available to the home cheese maker or are the commercial cheese makers using different cultures perhaps? I am curious now....

Have you seen this page:
http://cheeseforum.org/articles/links/links-supply-stores/ (http://cheeseforum.org/articles/links/links-supply-stores/)

I also ran into this a little bit ago doing a manic google search:
http://ribblesdalecheese.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/where-to-buy-cheese-making-supplies/ (http://ribblesdalecheese.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/where-to-buy-cheese-making-supplies/)

Hopefully this helps you!

Best of luck, I look forward to hearing how it goes
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: BobE102330 on November 21, 2012, 05:31:46 AM
Be sure to ask Iratherfly (Yoav) about cultures you need.  He carries most everything and has very good pricing.  Not to mention he is super helpful on the forum and privately.  I'm a happy customer, no relation.
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: bbracken677 on November 21, 2012, 01:04:28 PM
Be sure to ask Iratherfly (Yoav) about cultures you need.  He carries most everything and has very good pricing.  Not to mention he is super helpful on the forum and privately.  I'm a happy customer, no relation.

I will second that! 
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Ava on December 29, 2012, 09:17:51 AM
Thanks for the further links and advice, everyone. :) He really liked the books and everything. I've given him a link to the forum so he might be joining soon. Hopefully he may be making some cheese today  ;D

Thank you so much for all the help!

(He got me an ice cream machine for christmas - made some awesome goat's milk vanilla ice cream yesterday! I foresee cheese ice cream...)
Title: Re: Basic stuff to buy?
Post by: Mighty Mouse on December 29, 2012, 10:56:17 PM
Thanks for the further links and advice, everyone. :) He really liked the books and everything. I've given him a link to the forum so he might be joining soon. Hopefully he may be making some cheese today  ;D

Thank you so much for all the help!

(He got me an ice cream machine for christmas - made some awesome goat's milk vanilla ice cream yesterday! I foresee cheese ice cream...)

Awesome, glad it all worked out.

Cheese Ice Cream.... sounds very interesting, I look forward to hearing about that (make sure you post pictures).

Which books did you end up getting by the way?