CheeseForum.org » Forum
CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Likesspace on January 20, 2009, 03:00:32 AM
-
Okay guys, here's the swiss wheel that came from my milk experiment.
I am really happy with this one.
It's not that it looks any better than my other swiss cheeses (except the one I underpressed) but the fact that the curd looked so good makes me think this one might be superior to any other that I've made.
So, here's the pics....
Dave
-
Dave, I like your signature at the bottom of your posts.
As for the cheese looks great. Nice clean knit on the curds. What was the final pressure? Are you milling the curds by hand before going into the mold? Are the curds still warm before going into the mold? What is your pressing procedure?
-
Carter,
I'm at work right now, but I believe my final press weight was 52 lbs.
I used your calculations for a 7-1/2" Tomme mold.
As for milling, I really didn't have the need. During draining the curd stayed nicely seperated and went into the press nice and loose.
I do make sure to load the press with the curd as warm as possible.
Once I start the draining procedure, I hurry as much as I can so that the curd will knit properly. This is something that is stressed as being a very important part of getting a swiss to turn out well.
On some of my other cheeses, it's more difficult to keep the curd warm before going into the press.
Some, like Colby call for a long draining period (like 20 minutes) and the curd does cool a lot in that amount of time.
I really wish I had something along the lines of a steam table so that the curd could be warmed while draining.
So, there's your next project....
Build me a custom, stainless steel steam table and try to keep the cost under $50.00 shipped. Should be a piece of cake for you. :)
Oh, I checked out your web site a few minutes ago and it looks great. Very professional.
Can't wait to see it once everything is finished.
Dave
-
That one impressive looking cheese you've got there.
Love the bumps too.
-
Bumps = Character! ;D
-
Wayne,
The bumps might equal character but I really hate the bumps!
The only thing I hate worse than the bumps is the really rugged look of the top of the cheese from the cloth markings.
Because of that I've started doing my final press without cheesecloth. I do believe the cloth is necessary during the earlier pressings but I've not had any problem by losing it at the last.
With most cheese types (Gouda, Colby, Cheddar, etc.) the bumps aren't a problem. I simply do as Carter suggested and trim them of with a knife.
With a swiss, this really isn't possible since the wheel is so elastic.
If I were to trim off the bumps I would then be left with a small opening in the wheel which would no doubt get infected with mold during the sweating.
After this cheese forms a nice rind, the bumps will be barely noticeable. I just wish I could figure out how to turn out one of those nice perfectly smooth wheels that I sometimes see posted.
One of these days I might be forced to splurge on one of the Kordova molds. I have to say they are sweet and turn out a perfect wheel of cheese.
If I do decide to buy one, I guess I'll have to tell my wife that I spent the money on a hooker and a motel room. I think she would accept this more easily than more money going on cheese making equipment. ;D
-
Dave, now that's my kind of humor.
-
Ha, thanks for the mornin smile Dave, I like the bumps, gives it a kind of industrial riveted look ;D.
I think we are all very envious of Wayne's Kadova Brand molds (http://www.dairyandfoodequipment.com/en/products/41) soo expensive?
-
John, yes we are, mold that is. Since I'm starting to sell some equipment I'm going to look into vacuum forming some fine mesh into my molds and see if I can create the keep in place rigid mesh like wayne's molds.
-
A word of warning.
I vacuum sealed my kadova molded cheddar cheese.
the vacuum was so strong that a month later, wrinkles were permanently etched into my cheese.
-
Oh no!! after all that beautiful work. Oh well, a lesson learnt.
-
Wrinkles=Character.... ;D Sorry Wayne had to do it.
That does suck, but how bad could the wrinkles be? What are you going to do next time? BTW have you opened any that have been vacuum sealed for a while? How was the moisture content? Did any pool in the bag?
-
Hey guys....
Here's an update on this cheese.
If you look at the original pics (right out of the press) and this pic, it really doesn't look like the same cheese.
I've gotten better swelling, by far, on this swiss than any other I've made.
This is only about two weeks old and I plan on letting it sweat for 4 weeks. I just hope the wheel holds together since this one is swelling so much.
I am getting a couple of surface cracks in the cheese (from the swelling) but they really shouldn't hurt anything since I'll be waxing this one after the sweating stage.
This should keep the cracks from getting any worse and will also greatly reduce the chance of mold forming in the cracks.
The cheese is still very moist and very elastic so it should continue to swell even further.
Hopefully, I'll finally see some "real" eyes in this one.
Dave
-
That looks cool. Dave would you wipe the outside with a brine solution and let dry a few minutes before waxing to help prevent mold?
Also during the sweating stage would it benefit from having some humidity in there to help with cracks from forming or do you already have humidity. How do the big producers get it done without cracks?
-
Carter..
Before waxing, I actually rub the surface with extra fine cheese salt. I will only wax this one once the oily "sweat" stops coming to the surface.
I usually see the oily sweat stop after about 3 weeks but this one shows no sign of slowing down at this point. This is definately a different swiss than any I've made before.
I do keep a really high humidity while sweating this style of cheese.
I have a large tupperware container turned upside down over the wheel and then wet a paper towel (formed into a pyramid shape) under the "lid". The pyramid shape is simply to conserve space since this wheel does take up most of the space under the tupperware.
From everything that I've read, the reason that commercial swiss makers don't have this cracking/splitting problem is because they are dealing with 100 lb. wheels of cheese.
Of course their wheels do expand but there is so much surface area to their cheeses the large elastic area can handle the expansion.
Like I said, I would rather this wheel NOT crack but I don't forsee it as a problem (other than the appearance). I honestly would be happy if this wheel cracked nearly in half as long as I could see some major eye formation once it's finished.
It does look cool, doesn't it?
My kids tell me I'm obsessed with this wheel since I'm always checking on it, wiping it with brine, or turning.
Btw, when the wheel is turned over, the other side has nearly as much swelling and the sides are really beginning to bulge as well.
Hopefully I'll be celebrating some eyes within a few months time.
Dave
-
LOL at the obsession, always checking on the lil' wheels.
-
That looks very professional. Well done, I am going to have to try this cheese.
-
I've got some Probiotics I just have too many other cheeses to make first. I'll try it in the next 6 months or so.
-
Dave, That does look awesome! Good luck with that bloated wheel and I really hope that ages well and gives you the big holes! I'm really amazed at how your 'rivets' disappeared! You didn't shave them off did you? Impressive!
-
Thanks Chili..
As for the rivets, they normally do disappear, especially so on a swiss. Also, with most of my waxed cheeses they are barely visibile once aged.
I really don't think that will be the case with the parmesan or romano since these are not waxed and the bumps are extremely hard.
Oh well, if anyone makes fun of it I'll just give them a little lesson in "cheese character". :-)
-
Thanks Dave, you could always take on the 'Soup Nazi' (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-YJyGJQx2Fgk/seinfeld_soup_nazi_greatest_parts/) approach from Seinfeld if anyone gives you grief about the rivets! "No cheese for you...come back 1 year!" ;D
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/0cc/e93/0cce93f1-9fc3-4461-bf93-60a58ede5443)
-
LOL!
The Soup Nazi episode is on my top 5 Seinfeld list.
I'm sure that I've seen all of the eposides many times over but they never fail to amuse me.
In my opinion it's the best sitcom ever.
Thanks for the snicker.
Dave
-
Well now....
I just noticed something that's a little strange about my wheel of swiss.
The wheel is not NEARLY as bloated as it was only a day ago and the little surface cracks have started to knit themselves closed.
Does this mean that the pressure finally reached the terminal stage and blew a large hole(s) in the cheese which relieved pressure, causing the wheel to shrink?
Honestly, I have no idea but I'm hoping that is what happened.
Also, (and this might be wishful thinking) it seems that the wheel is starting to puff up again. If it is, in fact, doing this then that makes me think that this might be the process that swiss goes through to form numerous large holes in the cheese.
Now for the main question:
Why does this have to happen to me??
I do not have great patience as it is and now I'm supposed to wait for another couple of months to see if my theory on this is correct?
I'm really wanting to cut into this thing right now to see what's going on inside since this is the first time I've seen anything like this in one of my swiss cheeses.
Of course, I'm not really going to do it (gritting my teeth here) but man....I would really like to know what's happening.
If this wheel continues to inflate and deflate I will leave it to sweat for another few weeks (at the three week point now) and see what happens.
At some point I know I am supposed to move it to a cool fridge, but I just can't bring myself to do that as long as I see activity happening within the cheese.
I'll let everyone know how this turns out (knowing me, probably sooner than later).
Regardless, this one is going at least another two months before it crack it open.
I WILL see what a decently aged swiss is supposed to taste like this time.
(step away from the cheese......remain calm......aged cheese is your friend).
Dave
-
Dave,
The solution to your problem is simple. You need to do an MRI on your cheese. ;D
CC
-
I was thinking the SAME thing... how funny...
-
Totally that would be cool. You would get such strange looks at the ER they would probably do it for free. I dare you, I double dog dare you.
Anyway, to more serious business I have a very good text book on cheese I'll read the swiss section tonight and see what I can come up with.
-
Hey Dave.
Any update on this cheese?
-
Estes....
Honestly I had forgotten about posting an update to this cheese since I still did not get the results that I wanted from it.
I cracked into it a couple of weeks ago and although the flavor and texture are fantastic, the eye formation just didn't take.
Just as I have seen in previous attempts, I got a LOT of small eyes in the cheese but no large ones.
I really don't think I will find success with a swiss until I get the process of "pressing under whey" figured out.
This weekend I plan on trying again since it's going to be crappy weather in Illinois.
I do plan on giving "pressing under whey" a try and hopefully the process I have in my head will translate well in the kitchen.
I'll be sure to post a new topic once I get this next cheese finished.
Swiss, Stilton and Cheddar are the three varieties that I feel I have to make correctly before I can consider myself a real cheesemaker.
Dave
-
Hey Dave,
When I took a class from a cheesemaker who made tomme-style and washed rind cheeses, she said that pressing under the whey was one of the tricks she used to get consistent curd knit and texture.
All she did was let the curds settle to the bottom, rest the curds for 5-15 mins (depending on cheese type and pH), and then pour off most of the whey until the curd mass on the bottom appeared. Then, she took her hand and pressed into the curd, expelling more whey and knitting the curd mass together more. She pressed maybe a total of 20 times, rather gently but with constant pressure... for about two minutes, 5-10 secs per press. Then the resulting curd mass came out all at once into the cloth-lined mold, where it was pressed some more under very light weight (10 lbs). The curd mass was not broken up or milled between pressing in the pot and pressing in the mold. Cheese wheel was brined after about 12 hours and being flipped in the mold every 2-3 hours.
BTW, these were award-winning cheeses.
Hope this helps! My guess is that pressing under the whey helps to get rid of air space and knits the curds early on, so that the CO2 has no escape paths along micro fissures and must form large bubbles.
-
Also, have you read this?
http://www.fepale.org/Foro/quesoscont/Eye%20format%20in%20cheese-C-1.pdf (http://www.fepale.org/Foro/quesoscont/Eye%20format%20in%20cheese-C-1.pdf)
Good discussion of cause-effects of various types of eye formation.
-
Linuxboy...thanks for the information!
What you describe is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, yet I have made a HDPE "follower" that is as large as my cheese vat.
I plan on letting the curd settle.....pour off most of the whey (leaving approximately 2" over the curd mass), and then placing the follower on top of the mass and pressing with approx. 8 - 10 lbs. of pressure for 10 minutes.
I did perforate the follower to allow the whey a route of escape so that the follower doesn't float.
Also, I have considered putting the curd into a cheesecloth .....putting the cheesecloth into my actual pressing mold and then submerging the entire set up into the whey and then pressing with my follower.
I figure that way, the curd mass will not be too large for my 7.5" mold since it will already be in the mold.
I honestly think I'll try this method on the batch I make this weekend and see how it works out.
I realize that the curd will still contain quite a lot of whey once I begin the actual pressing but if I slowly apply the pressing weight, that should allow this excess whey to expel.
Again, thanks so much for the information you've given me. It will be a great help.
Dave
-
I'll let everyone know how this turns out (knowing me, probably sooner than later).
Regardless, this one is going at least another two months before it crack it open.
I WILL see what a decently aged Swiss is supposed to taste like this time.
(step away from the cheese......remain calm......aged cheese is your friend).
Dave
Well It's been two months already since that post...
so do you have any updates I would really like to see the outcome of this!!
-
eVenom....
This cheese tasted great...had a perfect swiss texture and was still a failure from my standpoint.
The eyes I formed were small an numerous. Not at all what a true swiss should be.
As we speak I have yet another swiss aging on the kitchen counter and this time I did press the curd under the whey. I have high hopes for this one, but this particular variety of cheese has dashed my hopes more times than I can count.
I have officially dubbed swiss as the most difficult cheese to do and do right.
I'm sure that cheddar makers and Stilton makers feel the same about their varieties, but honestly....this cheese has SO many variables that contribute to eye formation....sheesh.
The cheese that's sweating now, is by far the most elastic I've gotten to date and the yield of curd was also far superior to anything I've seen to date.
It has just started to show some swelling in the last day or two, so I'm hoping.....
Again, I'll give an update on this latest attempt once I know something. Especially if it's a success. :-)
In short, if you are looking for a great tasting cheese with a very nice texture, this swiss recipe is hard to beat. I personally won't consider it a success until all aspects of this cheese are met.
Thanks for asking about it.
Dave
-
Maybe it's too much to ask... but would you share your recipe with us! I would really appreciated. That bloating cheese looks so cool
do you have pictures of the your so called "failure"
remember in the end its all about taste!
-
Dave,
I have a possible solution to your small eye problem. I think you've been using the 97 lb weakling proprionic. You need to find some of the brawny bully type. But seriously, I feel for you on this one. At least you're getting the taste and texture you want. In the immortal words of Mick Jagger, "You can't always get what you want." My sympathies are largely because of a very flat Emmantel in my cave. We're all hoping your persistence pays off, and your sanity holds out.
My question regarding the previous posts in this thread is: how do you get your curd from the pot to the mold without breaking it up? As for me, my pot is 12" across and my mold is only 6". If I use a 6" pot, its going to be one tall puppy!
-
eVenom...
Ask and you shall receive.
Swiss Cheese
Things you will need:
1 gallon of whole milk, 1/2 packet of direct-set thermophilic starter or 2 ounces of prepared thermophilic starter, 1/2 teaspoon of propionic shermanii powder, 1/4 teaspoon of liquid rennet or a 1/4 renbet tablet, 1 pound of cheese salt, for brine, plus a pinch of cheese salt, 1/2 gallon of cold water, for brine. curd knife, stainless steel whisk, cheesecloth. ladle
Step1 Heat the milk to 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Add the starter and mix well.
Step2 Remove 1/4 cup of milk from the pot and add the propionic shermanii to it. Mix thoroughly to dissolve the powder. Add the mixture to the milk and stir. Cover and allow the milk to ripen for approximately 10 minutes.
Step3 Make sure that the milk’s temperature ALWAYS remains at 90 degrees. Add the diluted rennet and stir gently with an up-and-down motion for approximately 1 minute. If you are wanting to use farm fresh cow’s milk, top stir for several minutes longer. Cover and let the milk set at 90 degrees for approximately 30 miutes.
Step4 Using a curd knife and a stainless-steel whisk, cut the curd into 1/4 inch cubes.
Step5 Keeping the curd temperatures at 90 degrees, gently stir the curds for approximately 40 minutes. This is called fore-working and helps expel whey from the curds before they are heated.
Step6 Heat the curds by one degree every minute until the temperature is 120 degrees Fahrenheit. This will take approximately 30 minutes. Maintain the temperature at 120 degrees Fahrenheit for another 30 minutes, stirring often. The curds must be cooked until they reach a stage called the “proper break.” To test for this, wad together a handful of curds and rub it gently between your palms. It the ball readily breaks apart into individual particles, the curds are sufficiently cooked. If they are not sufficiently cooked, they will be too soft to hold the cheese together. Let the curds set for approximately 5 minutes.
Step7 Pour off the whey and reserve it for other recipes.
Step8 Line a 1 pound mold with cheesecloth and place it in the sink or over a large pot. Quickly ladle the curds into the mold. You do not want the curds to cool. Press at 8-10 pounds of pressure for approximately 15 minutes.
Step9 Remove the cheese from the mold and gently peel away the cheesecloth. Turn over the cheese, re-dress it, and press at 14 pounds of pressure for 30 minutes.
Step10 Repeat the process but press at the same pressure of 14 pounds for 2 hours.
Step11 Repeat the process but press at 15 pounds of pressure for 12 hours.
Step12 Make a saturated brine bath by combining the salt and water in a noncorrosive pot; stir well. Remove the cheese from the mold, peel away the cheesecloth, and soak the cheese in the brine. Sprinkle the remaining pinch of salt on the surface of the floating cheese. Refrigerate the brine and let the cheese soak for 12 hours.
Step13 Remove the cheese from the brine and pat dry. You can reserve the brine for other recipe uses if you so desire. Place the cheese on a clean cheese board and store between 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit and at 85 percent humidity. Turn the cheese daily for one week, wiping it with a clean cheesecloth dampened in salt water. Do not wet the cheese.
Step14 Place the cheese in a warm, humid room, such as the kitchen, with the temperature between 68 and 74 degrees fahrenheit. Turn it daily and wipe it with a cheesecloth dampened in salt water. Do not wet the surface of the cheese. Let the cheese set for 2-3 weeks, until eye formation is noticeable. The cheese will swell somewhat and become slightly rounded.
Step15 Age the cheese at 45 degrees Fahrenheit. and at 80 percent humidity for at least 3 months. Turn the cheese several times a week. Remove any surface mold with cheesecloth dampened in salt water. A reddish coloration on the surface of the cheese is normal and should not be removed.This recipe will make about 1 pound of cheese. If you want an additional pound, just double the recipe.
This is by far the best swiss recipe I've found. Even before I had a Ph meter, the cheese would turn out tasty just by following the recipe exactly.
Good luck if you give this one a try and please let me know if you find a definitive answer to the eye issue.
Dave
-
Hey Rich, Glad to see you posing here!
As for the process of pressing under whey.
Well I have no idea if this is the correct way of doing it, but here's my procedure.
At the end of the cook I drain the curds into a draining bag.
I then tie the top of the bag and put it back into the whey.
I then use the HDPE follower I made (same diameter as the pot, and perforated on the top) to press the curd bag for approx. 15 minutes.
At that point, I realized that the curd mass was STILL too big to fit into my mold so I broke it up into large chunks and placed it in my cheesecloth lined mold.
At that point, I submerged the entire mold back into the whey and repeated the pressing process.
Once I too the mold out of the whey the curd mass was very well consolidated and there was very little whey that came out while pressing.
As I said, I don't know that this is right but the wheel really came out well.
If it continues to swell over the next week or so, I'll snap a pic and put it on here and the other forum.
The wheel is so elastic it feels "soft" so I do have some hopes for something good to come from this one.
Pressing under the whey wasn't nearly as big of a challenge as I had envisioned yet at the same time I don't know if this procedure will give the results I'm after.
Only time will tell. :-)
Dave
-
Hi, so how's the latest baby developing?
-
Hey guys,
I know it's been a long time coming, but here's a final update on this cheese...
In short, it sucked.
It did not swell like I had hoped and the taste was.....I don't know, "off".
My wife did really like both the taste and the texture but I was not happy with it (especially since I saw the exact same small, numerous eyes that I"ve gotten used to seeing).
I ended up trashing the cheese that my wife didn't eat because I simply wouldn't touch it. It is the first swiss cheese that I've made that I consider a total failure.
But, the good news is that it's now cheese making time again!
I am going to brush up on my skills by making a few Romano, cheddar and Stilton cheeses and then it's on to the swiss.
Of course I'll also probably throw in a batch or two of Camembert and I might even get up enough nerve to try a Cambozola this year.
Dave
-
Sorry to hear abot your disappointment in this last cheese. I have read somewhere that we can't make big holes here due to size and agricultural differences.
I am curious - If the the size cheese is an issue I would suspect thicker cheese would be better than larger diameter. Maybe that would help simulate bigger cheese?
-
Debi...
I've also thought about the wheel size but I really don't see that as being relative.
If large eyes can be formed in a 200 lb. wheel then they should be able to be formed in a 5 lb. wheel.
I'm sure that it has to do with getting a totally closed curd which requires proper pressing under the whey, but without a sealed system of draining the whey I don't really know how this would be possible.
From what I've read, professionals use a siphon system where absolutely NO air is introduced into the curd. I don't have that available but I'm going to continue trying. I just ordered a new packet of p. shermanii so we'll see how it goes this year. Before evening considering another swiss make I'm going to give this a lot of thought.
I don't care if I eventually turn out a cheddar, stilton and cambozola that are better than anything that can be bought......without nailing the swiss I'll never consider myself a real cheese maker. Sometimes I really hate this perfectionist streak I have in me.
That just brought back a memory....
Some 20 years ago I once lectured my wife about how I am a perfectionist and she is not. Her response was: "That's why I married you and you married me." Yeah, that pretty much put me in my place. :)
Dave