CheeseForum.org » Forum

GENERAL BOARDS => Other Artisan Crafts => Topic started by: Crystal on December 17, 2011, 09:13:20 PM

Title: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 17, 2011, 09:13:20 PM
OK, traditional, maybe not...

Yummy, DEFINATLY!

We (mainly kiddies) dont appreciate the finer arts of beautiful bread making, so we do a quick sourdough!

I used to make lots of bread every day or two, but after having the last set of twins i didnt have time and managed to permanatly injure my sholder with bad feeding posture and the bad practice of patting them off to sleep. Now that they are sleeping and im not feeding i can manage to knead about once or twice a week, only once if i make a cheese. So i figured its time to make a new starter. So i looked around and found the most complex of starters, and decided on one i found in a book i had.

2c warm water
1tbs yeast
1tbs sugar
2c plain flour

mix it up and away you go!

Now, the quick part comes in the making... I know i should do the whole preferment thing, but honestly cant be bothered and it really doesnt fit in with our family. So i just make bread using the starter and half a tsp of yeast.

So its not real sourdough but it tastes great and makes nice loaves. So next Saturday i'll be making a few to have on Christmas day...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Boofer on December 18, 2011, 12:11:20 AM
1tbs yeast
Is that really a tablespoon of yeast?  :o

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 18, 2011, 03:41:07 AM
Actually i used a Dessert Spoon, as thats the size of your tablespoon... But yes, a spoon of dried yeast... Why?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 18, 2011, 05:59:26 AM
I think what boofer means is that you made "mock" sourdough, simply let yeast risen levin sour slightly which is very different from natural levin which doesnt relay on cultured bakers yeast but more on bacteria.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 18, 2011, 02:04:43 PM
Oh yeah, but i need it, and dont have time to risk it not working ;) Im guessing it'll still get some bacteria working in it anyway, so its only half not right!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: margaretsmall on December 18, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
Hi Crystal,
You don't need anything like that amount of yeast. I make bread all the time and I have a sourdough starter in the fridge which I made originally some months ago. Since my husband reacts rather violently to sourdough this is my secret pleasure - I make a loaf occasionally, slice it and freeze most of it for breakfast toast.

When I make ordinary bread, I put 1/2teaspoon of yeast with 250ml water (or whey when available - one of the great spin-offs of cheesemaking is the whey which is a great addition to bread, soup,....) and 250gm flour in the breadmaker and run the dough program. Then add the rest - my usual recipe is another 250gm flour (whatever sort takes my fancy on the day), 1tspn. salt, 2 tspn. sugar, some milk powder, and an egg, some linseeds, whatever, and run the dough program again, make into rolls or a loaf and bake in the oven. Faux sourdough.

My sourdough starter is a pure rye - as I'm at the coast and the bread bible is at home I can't remember the exact ingredients, etc, but it was the usual drill of mixing wholemeal rye with water and refreshing it daily for 4 days (no added yeast at all). I've made pure rye bread using the starter and it's great, if you like rye bread. The starter is  very noxious looking but comes to life amazingly well even after being neglected for weeks on end.   
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 18, 2011, 08:10:32 PM
i will make a 'ptoper starter after Christmas, but since i only had white flour and less than a week i just needed to get something starting! LOL... Rye is too expensive for us, 6 kids means the cheapest of everything and instead of wholemeal flour i actually crush wheat biscuits (breakfast cereal) into the bread mix. Plus, i have to make 2 or 3 loaves at a time, cos we eat so much bread for lunches everyday! Anyway, long story short, I will start a new starter after christmas!

Oh, I usually use about 3C flour, a teaspoon of yeast, 3/4C water, tsp sugar and 1/2tsp salt. Plus weet bix when i have them. thats for each loaf, so i usually make two or one and rolls... And using the starter i wont need to add so much yeast. I dont have a 'real' recipe for the starter or the bread, i just make it up from what ever i think looks and tastes good at the time!

*just noticed id put the yeast for a double batch instead of single!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Boofer on December 19, 2011, 12:15:17 AM
I think what boofer means is that you made "mock" sourdough, simply let yeast risen levin sour slightly which is very different from natural levin which doesnt relay on cultured bakers yeast but more on bacteria.
No, that's not what I meant. At first glance, a tablespoon seemed like a lot, but you obviously make a heck of a lot more bread than I do, so I'll just zip my lip now.

I would agree with Tomer1 that a true sourdough does rely on natural airborne yeast to leaven the bread, but that's not what you are interested in doing. Not a problem here.  ;)

Until recently I was maintaining a new starter on my kitchen counter that my daughter-in-law gave me. It advised that I feed it 1 cup of milk, 1 cup of sugar, and 1 cup of flour. After a while, it developed a fermented aroma. Adding it to bread allowed me to use less yeast. I wouldn't say it was sourdough, but I think it operated on the same principle of being open to the air and benefiting from wild yeasts over time. It was an Amish Friendship Bread starter.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: iratherfly on December 19, 2011, 12:36:45 AM
Crystal, there is an even easier way... have you ever done a no-knead bread?  the formula is really just to make something that's between a bread starter and a dough. You use no sugar and only a tiny amount of yeast (1/4 tsp is enough for a loaf). You let it ferment for 18 hours (there is a way to accelerate it to 6 hours) and the enzymes do their magic on the gluten so that you don't need any kneading.  You then bake it in a "french oven" or "dutch oven" configuration and what you get is nothing short of phenomenal. This is the type of bread you are dreaming about and paying premium for as a treat in a good bakery. Not only is it crusty, fluffy and airy, but it tastes great (and like with the best bakeries it has no taste of yeast) and you get a lot of bread cheaply. Also, it makes almost no mess and requires about 5 minutes of work the day before, 5 minutes 2 hours prior to baking it and then bake for 50 min or so. It's so easy, your baby twins can do it!

I bake at least one loaf a week and have several variation from Italian white to 7-grain whole.  (Tomer, sorry, I may have shown you some of the photos before)  All of the below - no knead and almost no work involved.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 19, 2011, 01:18:24 AM
That actually sounds pretty good yoda, since i have a sholder injury its best i dont knead! But when your broke and need bread, kneading it is! Lol, so, whats the recipe? And would you believe, the previous tenants of my house have left a brand new dutch oven, in the box, in my garage..? So its do-able!

Maybe our yeasts are different stregnths as my tin says  2tsp for 500gm flour... so thats 1dsp for 3.3cups flour. These are Australian conversions too...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 19, 2011, 08:27:45 AM
As a purist I dont LOVE the idea of no knead bread, but it does produce good flavor and it enables people who arent extremly skilled bakers to produce high hydration breads. 
I cant imagine my mom for example handling any type of dough upper of 65%, she would just throw more and more flour on it trying to make it less sticky. :P
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 19, 2011, 01:48:34 PM
Lol, tomer, you make it all sound so hard... my dad is a baker, and im a chef and im baking homestyle bread for kids and a husband who thinks mcdonalds is heaven on earth! And i have a sholder injury and no time to worry about hydration percentages lol. One day i'll want really good bread but for now i just want something a little different to plain 'ol white! But ive always kneaded, i remember my dad kneading away at 4am on his days off, but i need a no knead in my life!

Oh, boofer, i do have a similar recipe to what u mentioned, but its kneaded too! Principle is the same at te start to let it ferment 18hrs though. Actually, they call it a sourdough... but its not cos it uses the yeast starter i just made!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 19, 2011, 02:01:33 PM
Everyone of these mad hobbies start off as wanting to have "the good stuff" instead of the commerical garbage and it just escelates from there, the good stuff is not enough and you want the best in existance! :P     
I'm impossible to please btw lol...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 19, 2011, 04:32:04 PM
i know what you mean Tomer, I was happy with my farmhouse cheddars until i came here and realised they can get better, so now ive made a better one and its still not good enough!

OK, i have dug out the Dutch Oven from the garage... But im a bit concerned! Should it be OVEN PROOF?? this one has PLASTIC handles, and the box says nothing about them being heat resistant. It says the glass is... but the box also says made in China, to FDA standards... but nothing about the plastic... I have unscrewed the lid knob but cant get the side ones off... any thoughts? or a way i can 'test' it besides risking melting toxic plastic in my oven? or should i just use this other casserole i have thats ceramic or something?

Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 19, 2011, 04:50:03 PM
Not suitable.

Get one from s.africa, they are terrific. my brother has several he uses for bread baking.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Boofer on December 19, 2011, 08:02:29 PM
Lol, tomer, you make it all sound so hard... my dad is a baker, and im a chef and im baking homestyle bread for kids and a husband who thinks mcdonalds is heaven on earth! And i have a sholder injury and no time to worry about hydration percentages lol. One day i'll want really good bread but for now i just want something a little different to plain 'ol white! But ive always kneaded, i remember my dad kneading away at 4am on his days off, but i need a no knead in my life!

Oh, boofer, i do have a similar recipe to what u mentioned, but its kneaded too! Principle is the same at te start to let it ferment 18hrs though. Actually, they call it a sourdough... but its not cos it uses the yeast starter i just made!
We're not worthy...we're not worthy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FucbvoFFy0#)...  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 20, 2011, 01:49:19 AM
Tomer- dont know that my budget allows for south african dutch ovens... perhaps a substitute?

the casserole i have is oven proof and has a lid..! ;-)

Boofer... huh..?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Bob on December 20, 2011, 02:01:05 AM
Hey Crystal,

I think they are talking about something like a cast iron camp oven. You can pick these up cheap at camping stores like Rays. They are mostly made in China now, but still quite sutable for home use. Alternatively, you might have some cast iron, enamelled cookware like Le Crueset or Chasseur in your kitchen (or even the garage... ha ha).  Have a look here for some photos of camp ovens.

http://www.aussiecampovencook.com/Furphy%20Ovens2.JPG (http://www.aussiecampovencook.com/Furphy%20Ovens2.JPG)

Good luck!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 20, 2011, 03:10:37 AM
Right, think id rather knead my bread for free guys! Especially since DH jus bought me a stand mixer for christmas! He wants more food and is sick of hearing about my sholder hurting from kneading, mixing, whipping and stirring ;-)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Bob on December 20, 2011, 03:31:01 AM
Lucky you!  :)

DH ??
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 20, 2011, 07:21:20 AM
Thos are the traditional dutch ovens, I have one for camping and its extremly fun and tasty.  You can even warm smoke in it using some tin foil,chips and tea leaves and I improvised a metal rack to place the meat on

I also have a smaller ovel (1.5-2L) and an even smaller one (600-700 gr) which is perfect for day to day bread portions which my brother took and uses almost daily.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 20, 2011, 01:30:07 PM
Bob DH is 'dear husband'...

O might take a look at them then, theres a camping store near here that should have them. Id really like to try a no knead bread but guess ill be kneading for christmas.

I do have a question about the starter tho, how often should i feed it if its not in the fridge?

Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 20, 2011, 01:53:55 PM
Daily if not twice daily really if left out, espacially since your dealing with a yeast starter.  commerical yeast consume sugars very quickly and efficiently.

why not refrigirate?

I use and refrigirate a very small amount of stiff starter ,perhaps 100-150 grams so im conserving flour.

A day before make I take 50-100 grams for preferment, feed the mother by about doubling the volume and return it to the fridge. 

Every few weeks I refreash the mother completly when it smells too sour and is broken up (extremly over ripen).
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 20, 2011, 02:34:56 PM
I have been feeding it daily, but everyone says to leave it out for about a week at first... maybe i shouldnt?

I can easily put it in the fridge!

Also, i was under the impression that your starter just kept going.... and going... i didnt think you had to replace it completely?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 20, 2011, 03:45:07 PM
Once you reached prime activity (doubling in volume,alot of co2 bubbles) it can only go down hill from there.
There some complex bio-chemical stuff going on,
Basically If you leave it going without feeding your dealing with two big factors:
A)starving it  (cannot generate energy and multiply)
B)over acidify it and start killing it (enviroment too hostile)



Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Bob on December 20, 2011, 03:48:59 PM
Hey Crystal,

I thought DH was dear husband, but it does stand for something else that my wife occasionally calls me..... ;)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 20, 2011, 05:34:23 PM
Right, ill fridge this starter, use it sat then use up the rest then make a new one.

Funny Bob, your wife and i have something in common... ;-) i believe in most cases the two terms are interchangeable...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Boofer on December 21, 2011, 12:48:56 AM
Boofer... huh..?
It just seemed like you had a pretty good handle on everything...and it was all working for you...and all this advice was rolling in...that's all.  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 21, 2011, 03:02:43 AM
Lol, boofer, i have no idea what im doing! Chefs dont make bread or cheese ora million other things that mums have to make! Now i could make a mean beef wellington with red wine jus, perfectly turned potatoes and jullienne vegetables... but te kids wouldnt know what to do with it. And dad has no idea, bakeries are such controlled environments that the variables of home dont matter there! Plus, i dont ask for his advice because i dont really lkke him all that much.

Lol, so, i have no idea what im doing and if i seem to ignore advice its only because im too lazy to follow it! I dont ever mean to seem rude, im just naturally lacking in good people skills!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 21, 2011, 08:45:44 AM
Same as in cheesemaking, its all about practice and gaining expirience.


Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 21, 2011, 02:07:07 PM
Thats right Tomer, learning in theory does not teach you any practical skills...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: iratherfly on December 25, 2011, 11:40:04 PM
Sorry for dumping all that no-knead bread on you guys and then disappearing without the proper support... I was out for a few days.

Crystal, you don't need to go so far. You either need an oven-proof pot with lid (I often use my 4 Liter All-Clad for that) or a covered baking dish such as those cast iron, enameled, stoneware or German style clay bakeware (Romertopf). I have even used Pyrex and Anchor glassware! It all works (though stoneware, enameled, cast iron and clay are best).  One more thing to remember is that this is a highly hydrated dough so it's kind of wet and sticky. The loaf will take up some of the shape of the pot so don't get something too big like 8 Liter dish because it will spread all over the large bottom and you will have a low flat loaf. 4 to 5½ liter is perfect. Oval dish will give you a batard style bread. Round dish will give you a boule.

You said something earlier in the thread that

Maybe our yeasts are different stregnths as my tin says  2tsp for 500gm flour... so thats 1dsp for 3.3cups flour. These are Australian conversions too...
Nope, I know it sounds odd and it's hard to believe it works but you heard it right. 1/4 teaspoon for 3-4 cups flour. You would not believe how well it works. Just follow the recipe and give it its time.  This is also why this bread doesn't smell or taste all yeasty. I was surprised too when I began doing it and didn't believe it because up until then I used to knead breads and use 1 tablespoon for a loaf made with 4 cups of flour. the yeast here is just a "starter" if you will. Once it kicks in it begins to propagate like crazy and you get this bubbly sticky dough ...unreal!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 12:22:26 PM
"consumer" recipes always exaturate the amount of yeast needed since they relay on very quick and powerful co2 production to substitute for improper\lack of sufficient kneading (because most people are lazy) and the abillity to quick get the bread into the oven. 
Traditional Old school sourdough bread takes almost an entire day to preper.

-In the afternoon when the bakery closes down after selling out, the baker uses the preferment to mix another batch in a huge bread tub\bath which he ferments "over night" , he goes home and returns at about at about 1-2 am for another day.
He turns the oven heat again (which now is fairly cold and runs on remaining ambers) with new wood,
Deflates the dough which has now risen and developed goodness , portions it and shape it into 2-4 hours of proofing (depending on how cold the room is) and by 5-6am he has his first loafs ready for sell.

Being a baker is hard life :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 26, 2011, 01:42:50 PM
Great, ill use less yeast from now on. Not that i mind the yeasty taste! Its kinda my fav part! But saving a.few cents each loaf will be great! Ive got starter left to use today for my fake sourdough then may make a 'proper' one. Ill find a recipe round here for a no knead, ive got a dish i can try, so ill try it!

Tomer, the recipe i have for sourdough is like that, starter, preferment overnight then knead and all that. I dont always do it though. I did once!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 26, 2011, 05:57:27 PM
Ok, you got me curious now.  I gotta try this no knead bread, though I will use a sourdough starter and whole wheat flour. 

I recently found that if I used a few teaspoons of kefir and a pinch of bread yeast, I could make a new starter that was really sour, very quickly (two weeks?).   That's real handy cause sometimes I don't feel like maintaining it.   

Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 06:47:31 PM
A sour mother is nothing to worry about, I often neglect mine when I dont make bread for a week or four and it stinks of vinegar :)
You just proof the preferment well (really good rise and tiny bubbles which look like tiny insects)
and "heal" your mother culture with a good feeding throwing away some of that half dead sourdough.

A sour mother doesnt mean a sour bread, over fermenting your main dough or using an overly soured preferment does.   
Alot of commerical bakeries flavor their bread with soured preferments and quickly rise the bread with cultured yeast.   some have the nerve to call it "natural traditional sourdough bread" and ask an artisianal price for it.

I call that fraud.


If I get pysically well again someday id like to open up a bakery for a short while selling bread and sourdough croissant - these based on some cultured butter is my idea of heaven.  O0 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 26, 2011, 09:01:56 PM
wow, you really love your bread Tomer! LOL, so do i, and i just finished a loaf of white sourdough-ish kinda bread! plus i made a batch of my weetbix bread rolls for lunch and with my home made butter they were a big hit! I didnt get pix of the rolls before the kids demolished them, but theres one of the loaf... Oh, and the christmas batch went down no trouble with the Turkey, Ham and all my home made cheeses, crackers, butter... it was nice to see so many people enjoying my food, im so passionate about making good food thats slow and made with care and thought, so it was really nice to see so many people appreciating it all.

Now, I guess Ill have to start a new starter tomorrow, im too tired today! And im off to find a no-knead recipe to share with anut!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 10:24:55 PM
Oh I love turkey, I hope my meat guy will have some whole birds for sell this weekend for newyears.

Have you ever deep fried a turkey? I heard its crazy good and crazy dangerous lol
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 26, 2011, 11:58:01 PM
Ive deepfried half a duck... but never a turkey. do you do the whole thing at once? Man, you wouldnt fit a leg in my deepfryer!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 27, 2011, 11:41:07 AM
"A sour mother doesnt mean a sour bread, over fermenting your main dough or using an overly soured preferment does."

I know Tomer1, found that out for myself years ago.  I mostly use the starter for whole wheat sourdough pancakes, which does utilize a sour mother (all but a 1/4 cup).  I get really soft, tender, flavorful pancakes!  Top with homemade freezer preserves and your in heaven!  ^-^

Hope you do get well enough to start a bakery!  Sourdough croissant sounds lovely!  I'll have to try that...I think I still have some cultured goat butter somewhere....
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 27, 2011, 12:35:05 PM
To counter the sourness in pancakes you can nuetralize the acid with some baking powder (sodium bicarbonate),
Thats what the ethiopians do with injara (pancake like) bread made from teff flour which is left to ferment and REALY acidify for several days.  Its very tasty and spongy with lots of tiny eyes.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 27, 2011, 01:19:39 PM
There's a learning curve to making injera!  The sourdough starter has to really be going strong to get those bubbles hopping!  As often and not, I end up having to add baking powder just to get enough bubbles going.  If you're working with brown teff  a 3 day ferment is a must to get a nice flavor.  Ivory teff is much more forgiving/tasty.   Worth the trouble, I love Ethiopian food!

 ??? Why would you want to neutralize the acid?  The sourness in the pancake goes beautifully with the sweet maple syrup or preserves.  :P  I do use baking soda in orange juice or tomatillo sauce.  It's kinda cool to sip before the CO2 is finished bubbling away.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 27, 2011, 02:04:39 PM
Alright, i still didnt find a no knead recipe, but i forgot to look! Lol, Cheese Yoda (irf) said u would provide one, but has yet to post it... lol

Im going to keep going with what i know of sourdough starters, make a fresh one, with no yeast. But i do need to make more cheese!

So much to do, so little time! I managed to give my baby twins a completly home made dinner lastnight! Home made bread, cheese, butter, home grown tomatoes and lettuce. Oh, and left over honey baked ham, but i did cook that! I was kinda proud...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 27, 2011, 02:29:51 PM

 ??? Why would you want to neutralize the acid?  The sourness in the pancake goes beautifully with the sweet maple syrup or preserves.  :P  I do use baking soda in orange juice or tomatillo sauce.  It's kinda cool to sip before the CO2 is finished bubbling away.  :)

Thats how the jewish ethiopians do it... I dont mind the tang.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 27, 2011, 02:55:24 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html)

No knead bread from the new york times... sounds like normal bread to me, but for lazy people...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 27, 2011, 03:21:26 PM
Hi Crystal,

The site "Breadtopia" and "King Arthur Flour" have no knead recipes.  I'm going to start one of them today.  My wrists/forearms hurt these days, no knead would make it easier to have bread more often.

Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 27, 2011, 04:40:33 PM
I know how you feel anut, my sholder will thank me for not kneading for a while. I actually spent yesterday afternoon making rice heat packs to soothe the pain in my sholder. I will take a look at the sites you mentioned and see if they have some more inspiring recipes...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 27, 2011, 05:23:25 PM
OK, i have made my no-knead bread. I had trouble using the stand mixer. The dough kept winding all the way up the dough hooks and it WOULD NOT mix properly. So in the end i had to use a wooden spoon. I used the starter i had left in it too. I wasnt sure how much water to use with the starter so i kinda guessed and nearly used what the recipe said for water anyway. I'll just have a very sticky dough but dont think it'll matter all that much! Any way, its sitting on the bench doing its thing right now and ill make it tomorrow morning. I might do 2 loaves tomorrow, one on a tray and one in the covered dish i have... see how they go!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 27, 2011, 06:56:42 PM
Perhaps adjust the depth of your hook.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 27, 2011, 07:32:02 PM
The covered dish method works well... throw in a couple tablespoons of water and you get a nice chewy crust.  I'm going to try cook mine on a pizza stone (haven't used it for bread yet) and throw water on bottom of the oven.  Good Luck Crystal!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 27, 2011, 08:05:20 PM
I use an atomizer to spray water before and after the bread goes in and its enough to facilitate for good rise and crust formation.

The idea is to not have the crust harden too fast in which case its unable to stretch, same as with swiss - it needs to be soft enough to contain the gas without cracking.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 27, 2011, 09:10:33 PM
I was going to try a sprayer, but I think I would end up cracking my pizza stone!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: David Helmers on December 27, 2011, 11:47:59 PM
I've not had good success with the no knead breads on the pizza stone -  it tended to stick every time we've tried it. Maybe more corn meal on the stone would have been in order? Or perhaps the man-made ceramic stones that we used weren't the best for this? Anybody having a success with these with stones? I sometimes think that a glazed quarry tile might work better.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 07:01:35 AM
Pizza doughs are usually low hydration doughs (50-60%), most no kneads are high in hydration. (70-85%)
So you might try to add tons of flour to your no knead base to get it dry.

Regarding the stone, Just dont spray directly on it.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 28, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
Parchment paper should solve the stick problem.  I was going to use a pizza stone to put the bread on and fire bricks in the shelf above it.  I'm working with wheat that I didn't like much anyway (whole white wheat) so it won't hurt my feelings if it's a total disaster... I post the results with pic's.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 11:55:35 AM
I always use a paper, cleaning a stone is just too much of a hassle if you got any accidental sticking.

But still high hydration pizza dough will turn out saggy-soggy without some major heat (much more then the 300c my oven can put out) to quickly bake the dough and dry the sauce (I normally go basic italian style with grated tomatos ,olive oil ,garlic salt and b.pepper)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 28, 2011, 12:48:28 PM
I've had good luck so far with the pizza stone, I preheat at 500 degrees Fahrenheit for an hour and prepare the pizza on a pizza screen.  Cooks in 15 minutes and is never soggy.  Just to be safe, I like to brush a light layer of oil or pesto on the dough before any sauce goes on. 

I made a much stiffer dough for the no knead.. I don't like my bread to spread out!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 03:40:01 PM
15 minutes sound a bit too much,even for a thicker pie style of pizza. I make mine NY style mostly so I dont go completly carb overdosed :)
Maybe skip the screen and go stright on top of the stone, you want that direct conduction of heat - browning the bottom of your pizza. 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 03:56:56 PM
ok, i have blobbed out my no knead, kinda smooshed it a bit, then squashed it into a ball! Hope this is what its meant to look like!?

Tomer, my stand mixer isnt adjustable... It's ok, though, i dont mind stirring.

I love pizza, but im not overly fussy about how i make it. I dont have a pizza stone, i get the dough ready on baking paper, heat the trays then slide it on! Whack it in for a bit till its cooked. No-ones complained yet. I usually brush or spray a bit of oil onto the top of the dough, just in case...

anut, where do i 'throw' the water? lol

Im not sure if my no knead is 'stiff' or soft for a no knead... it just is what it is and if i have trouble ill adjust for next time i suppose!

Oh, ive been meaning to ask, does anyone know a decent recipe for Turkish Bread?? Is it some guarded secret I'm not meant to know? I cant for the life of me find one thats even similar to the chewy, airy bread the turkish bakery here makes!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 28, 2011, 03:58:36 PM
10 minutes when I do a thin crust.  I did a sourdough thin crust last time... very good! 

Me? Skip the screen?  :o Obviously you have not seen me in action! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!  I would be peeling what was left off the back of my oven!  ::)  The pizza screen does surprisingly well at allowing your crust to brown and my pizza stays hale and whole.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 28, 2011, 04:05:10 PM
Where you throw the water depends on what method your going to use.  In a covered dish the water would go inside with the dough... 2- 4 tablespoons should do--I've done this successfully many times.  If uncovered you can spray the loaf directly and or throw water on the bottom of the oven.  The latter may not work if you oven vents too much.  I haven't tried that yet on mine, so I can't vouch for it.  I'm going try with this loaf, as well as spraying the loaf prior to placing on stone.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 04:34:18 PM
I usually put a little dish of boiling water in the bottom of the oven, though i usually do open loaves, so i'll throw some in the covered dish and see how it goes!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 05:08:31 PM
Oh turkish Ekmek (which translates simply to = bread) is great,
The one I know is a high hydration (80-85%) flat bread like chiabbata made with sourdough (liquid levin) which make up a large percentage of the flour. (I think around 40-50%)

Quote
Tomer, my stand mixer isnt adjustable...
Sure its not, the hook is, there should be a screw and a nut.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
Any thing that resembles the turkish bread we have here will do Tomer. And yes, there is no screw, nut or anyhting to adjust...

Just pulled my no knead out the oven, and i tried it cos i couldnt wait till it cooled!

I think next time i do it i might use more dough, as the loaf isnt very high, also a bit more water to stop the cracks. The crust is VERY crunchy, which is great! Um, other than that its light, airy, doesnt taste at all yeasty. Perhaps the air bubbles are a bit large and random, dont know how to change that though!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 28, 2011, 07:41:40 PM
Looks good! So what recipe did you use?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: dttorun on December 28, 2011, 08:09:42 PM
Oh turkish Ekmek (which translates simply to = bread) is great,
The one I know is a high hydration (80-85%) flat bread like chiabbata made with sourdough (liquid levin) which make up a large percentage of the flour. (I think around 40-50%)

This is called as pide (flat bread) and has yogurt and/or milk in the dough with egg wash plus sprinkled nigella (black cumin) and or sesame seeds on top. Here is a picture.
Tan
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 08:14:50 PM
This is what I was talking about,
I would have guessed it to be a lean dough , nothing with eggs or yogurt.
Interesting...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
anut, i used the new york times one, but added in just over a cup of the sourdough starter i had left. Its great, im eating it now for lunch with vegemite and my farmhouse cheddar! Sooooo, good!

Tomer, yes, Pide is the same thing, and yes i knew it had egg and yoghurt in it, but none of the recipes i have tried have really been 'right'... Most are incorrectly cooked i suppose so the chewy, bubbly texture isnt there, and thats the bit i wanted! Guess i will simply have to keep trying! I know the turkish shop near me cooks their bread in a gas pizza oven, ive seen them do it!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 09:52:10 PM
I think the bread I made today is exacly that, It had huge holes in the bottom and was very chewy with a nice tasty crust on top and yeasty note.

I used 20% whole wheat, 1% dry yeast and 85% water,2% sugar,2% salt.
Hydrate the flour for 30-60 minutes with cold water and mix in yeast,sugar and salt.
Let it ferment for about... 12 hours in a cold room,  Fold it every now and then to strengthen the gluten stracture.
Oil some paper and slap the dough into it streching it to shape ,cover with oil of your choice ,let proof for 1 hour and deflate with your fingers the middle while the outside is kept risen.
Bake for about 20min at 200-210c.



Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 10:39:13 PM
Sounds about right tomer cept turkish bread is always white. I should give it a try with this no knead dough, just add in a bit of yoghurt and press it flat on the paper, brush with egg and put sesame seeds on top. Id also put a big dish of water in the bottom of the oven as the bread is very moist and doesnt really have a crust at all... its soft and chewy right through...? any thoughts?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 28, 2011, 10:56:49 PM
No need for steam with such a bread.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 28, 2011, 11:38:26 PM
how do we stop it from going crusty then tomer?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 29, 2011, 07:50:49 AM
You dont, you want it crusty and because its a flat bread it really doesnt matter since it doesnt rise like a loaf.

The hardness of the crust will be determined by oven heat and duration of baking, Preheat the oven and the moment you put it in lower the temp to 190-200c if you want it soft and very moist\spongy.

Steam (along with slushing the bread) is another measure to prevent "blow outs" as you can see here (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tsMMoLGZeog/TEI0_wc9eRI/AAAAAAAAGwk/jpEXMw-xIAk/s1600/blowout.jpg)

The gas (by the rapid dying of yeast) produces internal pressure,if the crust hardens too early the bread cant facilitate the gas and a weak spot blows (sort of like a safty valve  ^-^) 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 29, 2011, 01:15:45 PM
righty-oh then Tomer... Guess i'll just have to give it a shot wont I. I have to use up the rest of my no knead first, whichisnt hard. We ate the entire loaf for lunch yesterday!

anut, did you make yours yet?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 29, 2011, 01:31:19 PM
No, not yet.  Today is cheese making day.  I'm working on a blue Wensleydale.  I'll let the dough hang out in the fridge until tomorrow.  Hope my starter was in good enough shape.  Normally I hedge by adding some yeast as well, but this time I'm using 1/3 cup starter at 100% hydration and no additional yeast.  I'll post the results... good, bad or ugly!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 29, 2011, 03:32:52 PM
Sounds great!Im just on my way out now to see if i can find some raw milk. Hours of research have found that it is being sold here as 'Cosmetic Bath Milk'... will see how i go!!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 30, 2011, 12:11:29 PM
Made my first no knead yesterday after all.  Very tasty!  Next time I'll let it hang out in the fridge for a week.  I was right about my starter made with kefir and yeast.  Much better then the San Francisco Sourdough starter I used last year.  Nice flavor and it got a lot more sour and that was after only 48 hours in the fridge!  I'll have to run it again with white flour so I can evaluate the difference better.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 30, 2011, 07:23:32 PM
ok, my second loaf today did not go so well! It hardly rose at all, was super crusty, like hard as a rock kinda crusty... Dont know what i did wrong.. perhaps its cooler today than the other day? its the same mix... Yours look great anut!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 30, 2011, 09:08:30 PM
Thanks Crystal...it was hard to resist buttering and wolfing the whole loaf...but I did!  Tonights pizza didn't fare so well.  I made my first whole wheat crust with sourdough starter and I think it was just as easy a dough to work with as that of white flour--was able to get it quite thin.

Huh, weather causes different behaviors in the little buggers, but no rise at all?  Sounds like something was wrong with your starter.  What did you use this time for a starter? Did you just refresh the starter and it hasn't had a chance to get going properly agian?

I've started a second batch with white flour so I can better tell what flavor and sourness I get from my current starter.  I'm going let it stay in the fridge for a week I think.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 30, 2011, 11:33:59 PM
i used the same no knead mix from the other day, id made a double batch. i did get a bit of rise, but nothing like the first time. i still reckon i need more mix per loaf...

That pizza looks amazingly good, is that peperoni?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on December 31, 2011, 11:49:22 AM
The only thing I can think of, that's happened to me, is that the sourdough starter consumed all it could and ran out of steam.  That happened to me once when I used too much starter per the amount of dough to be made.  Fortunately I was making pizza dough, so I ended up with a thin, more cracker like crust.  Very tasty, but flat and crunchy... kinda nice though.

That's peppered salami on the pizza. Gotta have that pepper coating to really tickle your taste buds!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on December 31, 2011, 12:11:11 PM
If your preferment is not responsive I suggest you do several feeding untill it "proofs" it can double the volume of the dough.  A weak dead starter put into a dough as a fermenter will not revive all of a sudden and produce the required amount of gas.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on December 31, 2011, 02:40:40 PM
Thats just the thing, it was the same batch of dough that i baked from two days earlier and produced a beautiful loaf! I poked the new one again today, still feels like a rock and it looks like ciabbatta inside, huge air bubbles and not a lot of bread... Oh well, they cant all be perfect, im just bummed that it didnt work, ive never had an 'uneatable' bread before... LOL! Guess i'll turn it into bread crumbs and start again! Not that i mind that, i was running low on crumbs anyway...

So, next batch will be regular, i wont use a sourdough starter because i dont have any! I'll just get my morning jobs out of the way then maybe get DH to mix it up. ive been sewing and crocheting up a storm trying to get the kids sorted for back to school. We made the cutest pencil cases, still need to do sandwich wraps, snack bags, drink bottle covers, i have requests for more rice hot packs and i need to get more listings done for my etsy shop! Thank goodness i dont have any garden work to do this weekend.

HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 04, 2012, 04:30:44 PM
I just baked my second no knead loaf after a 5 day ferment in the refrigerator.  I don't have a dutch oven, so I'm doing something a little different. 

Thanks iratherfly!!!  No knead is so much easier than more traditional methods!!  I love the throw it the fridge and forget about it until your ready!  Here's my version and pic's.  I'll cut into it tonight and post a pic with my evaluation.  Smells great.  ^-^


No Knead Bread—my way ☺

For one loaf:

1 ½ cups water
16 oz flour
1 ½ tsp salt
¼ to ½ cup sourdough starter **

Mix ingredients and knead just long enough to make a ball of dough.  Add water or flour as needed for a nice firm ball.  Put ball in a covered container and let rise 2 hours, and then put in the fridge.

Leave in fridge overnight or up to a week or so.

When ready to make.  Bring dough out and let it warm.  Shape it into a loaf and add a little flour if it’s too soft to hold it’s shape.  Let rise 2 hours, more or less, as needed until it’s maybe twice its original volume.  I like to poke it with my finger from time to time.  If the dough bounces back you are okay.  If it seems to stay depressed plan on getting it in the oven pronto, it’s running out of steam! 

While your dough is rising, preheat your oven/pizza stone to 425 degrees for 1 hour if using a pizza stone.

 When dough has risen, spray the top with water and slash.  Slide onto the pizza stone (parchment paper is great for this).  Immediately throw 1-cup hot water on the floor of the oven and shut the door.  Repeat as needed to keep it nice and steamy for the first 10 minutes.  This step is really important for a chewy crust and for oven rise.  You loaf may gain more volume in those 10 minutes then it did during the rise before the oven!

Reduce heat to 325 degrees and cook another 20 minutes.   30 minutes total should be enough for a long loaf.  A round will likely take a little longer.  My oven runs hot.  If your oven doesn’t or runs colder than mine you may need to increase the temp by 25 degrees.

That’s it! Grab you knife, butter and devour.

** If starter’s liquid/flour ratio is 50/50 by weight, use a ¼ cup.  If it’s 50/50 by volume, use ½ cup.   If you don’t have starter you can use ¼ tsp yeast.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 04, 2012, 07:29:29 PM
Held off as long as I could, but I couldn't take it anymore!  I was shaking all over...just had to have a bite...just a nibble... with butter dripping thru the crumb... ahhh!   ;D

This worked great!  5 days ferment gave it just the right amount of sour.  Crust was crunchy and chewy... add in the rosemary and the flavor went over the top!   :P  That was the best tasting loaf of bread I have ever baked and it was totally easy!   8)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Boofer on January 05, 2012, 12:14:12 AM
Ooh, that looks and sounds delightful. Excellent pics and description. Thanks for that. Slobber, slobber....  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 05, 2012, 03:14:58 PM
Looks tasty anut! And i'll thank 'Yoda' for the idea too. ive made a few more, but we eat them so fast that i forget to take pix. That hard as loaf got eaten with soup the other night. I just toasted slices in the oven and smothered them with fresh homemade butter and some herbs... went down ok for the kids.

I have to make ice-cream and cordial today, otherwise id make another bread...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 05, 2012, 08:28:27 PM
Hi Crystal,

Toast is always good for hard or stale bread.  My favorite is bread pudding--yummy!  Making ice cream kinda follows naturally from cheese making.  Gotta do something with the cream we skim when making grating cheeses.  My record stands at 8 quarts of ice cream (all different varieties) in the freezer at one time!  My sweetheart was very happy!  I'm going to have to stop making bread for the winter.  It's counter productive to dieting!  :)

What type of ice cream and cordial are you making?

Hi Boofer,

Oh My, this could get competitive!   >:D  But for now, I'm still just a shadow in the lee of your brightness.    ;)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 06, 2012, 01:57:17 PM
Ive been making ice cream for years, i think i was 13 when i got my first job in a nice restaraunt and we made our own ice cream. Never got to use fresh raw cream, as its illegal here. Actually, i think were not allowed to sell the 'raw' egg version either. I didnt get it done yesterday, i was lazy...

Im doing pepermint choc-chip mainly because i dont really like ice cream and if it has pepermint and chocolate in it i will eat it just for the yummy flavour!!

Oh, and orange cordial cos i had to peel 3kg of oranges the other night to make a citrus oil cleaner with vinegar...

Sorry, ive had no nanny for over a week so my kitchen has been rather empty... and my brain... and ive had a cheese fidge for 2 weeks that has no cheese in it... :(
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 06, 2012, 02:23:01 PM
Sounds like you are pretty industrious to me! I would never have thought to make my own cleaner and then cordial with the peels!  Hope you find the time soon for cheese making!  An empty cave is a very sad thing.  :'( 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 07, 2012, 02:15:42 PM
The cleaner is made from the peels, the cordial from the juice! I got the idea on another forum. You just 3/4 fill a jar with vinegar, and add peels till its full. Just the rind though. Then let it sit for 2 weeks on the window sill, strain, dilute 50/50 with vinegar and spray away! I love the smell, and it cleans really well! And its safe for everything and every one, and it cost about 50c for the vinegar and peels, the peels would have gone in the bin if i dodnt use them cos i cant compost them!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 07, 2012, 06:37:05 PM
Cool! Great idea for cleaning!  I'm very sensitive to most cleaners and clorox.  The chemicals or the scents use to hide the chemicals make me feel ill and give my a headache.

I don't think I've ever had orange cordial...sounds yummy.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 10, 2012, 02:10:58 PM
I was lazy with the cordial, cos i have to juice 3kg of oranges by hand i havent done it yet. LOL, i have 20 'naked' oranges on the bench still. I'll get to it today though! You really should try this cleaner then anut, its chem free and you can use it on stainless and glass. You just use a flannel cloth to polish it afterwards. But it works on plastic, wood, and everything else. It repels fog on glass, great for mirrors and shower screens! Also, its so easy to make. It took me 10 mins to peel the oranges, shove them in a jar and cover with vinegar! This would be really good for you!

Orange cordial is easy... I think ill post it on my blog today when i make it and i'll link back here k.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 10, 2012, 02:35:32 PM
Yes, I think I will try that!

If you want save some effort juicing the oranges, throw them in a big bucket and just mash them enough so they are mostly wet.  Add some pectic enzyme and let it sit a day or two.   It will break down the pulp for you and free the juice. Then you can pour it through a straining bag. 

Ignore me if you already knew this!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on January 10, 2012, 05:21:18 PM
That method will extract large amount of bitter tasting phenols.
Ive seen a commerical enzyme used to "seperate" the celulose layer from the fruit creating effortless supremes.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 10, 2012, 07:16:24 PM
 ???  Interesting... I've been using it for the last 2 decades and never had a problem with bitterness from using pectic enzyme, or bitterness period.  I wasn't just a once in a while user either.  I was making 75 gallons a year of plum and berry wines for at least one of those decades.  Are you speaking from personal experience or relaying info you've read??
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: fied on January 11, 2012, 04:47:20 AM
I'm afraid I cheat big time. I just make sure all the bitter pith is off the citrus fruit, chuck the fruit into the processor and blitz, then strain it through wet muslin. It's a bit cloudy, but who cares?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 11, 2012, 12:03:44 PM
Depends on what you're doing, a processor was never an option for me.  I was pressing fruit and almost everything I was working with had seeds which would be bitter if broken.  Also, even though berries mash well, it's not the same as actual separation of juice and pulp.  The first time I made blackberry wine I did not have good separation of juice and pulp.  The press bag burst and I had berry on the ceiling, walls and all the way over to the door to the kitchen.  I said a few choice words I won't repeat!  >:(  It took 2 coats of sealer and 2 coats of paint to finally cover it.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on January 11, 2012, 01:54:41 PM
???  Interesting... I've been using it for the last 2 decades and never had a problem with bitterness from using pectic enzyme, or bitterness period.  I wasn't just a once in a while user either.  I was making 75 gallons a year of plum and berry wines for at least one of those decades.  Are you speaking from personal experience or relaying info you've read??

Im talking about citrus not berrys or stone fruits.
The white part of orange,mandarin,clemntine and so on... it has alot of bitter phenols.
perhaps its less apearent when the juice is sweet but if fermented it makes really bad fruit wine which is undrinkable without backsweetening. 
I made some mandarin-organe wine and had to turn it all to vinegar since it was too bitter even after using various fining agents to reduce phenolics.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 11, 2012, 03:03:47 PM
Well, i'll stick to my 20yo hand juicer boat thing that my MIL gave me! Its free after all! Plus, i'll employ any one of the 6 kids or DH to juice for me when my sholder starts to hurt! LOL!

Im a stickler for old fashioned ways lol, except kneading bread!

Oh, cordial is wonderful according to the kids! DS11 says its the nicest one yet! I will get the post up today as i ran out of time yesterday... theres NEVER enough time for me...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 12, 2012, 04:31:46 PM
OK anut, i finally got the recipe up:

http://worldofminecg.blogspot.com/2012/01/homemade-orange-cordial-recipe.html (http://worldofminecg.blogspot.com/2012/01/homemade-orange-cordial-recipe.html)

Hope you do make it, its very yum!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 12, 2012, 09:28:00 PM
Ohh Okay Tomer, I understand what you meant now.  I haven't worked with oranges yet, so I'll keep your warning in mind.

Thanks Crystal.  It will be fun.  Hopefully I can find some oranges on sale.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 13, 2012, 03:28:45 AM
Good anut, You can make lemon, or any other fruit. Apple, raspberry, lime, or something else. Mango, pineapple...lol, i like cordial. Its a gret way to use up lots of fruit. I love making fruit leathers too ;) Oh, ive had my nanny back all week but i havent had time for anything. Damn the school holidays. I didnt even get in a loaf of no knead bread! I need to do a cheese next week. Thinking caerphilly...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 13, 2012, 01:32:06 PM
This has been a great month for awesome prices on pears (25 cents a pound).  My dehydrator is going non-stop!  My orchard should be producing a good amount of fruit this year or next.  So I'll have my own fruit to play with soon.  Can't wait to start making hard cider.   ^-^  I have a weak spot for roll ups too.  :P  Caerphilly is a good first choice for an empty cave... I just can't believe how a 5 week old cheese could taste so good!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 13, 2012, 03:09:25 PM
MMM, wish i had more room to grow fruit! I really have a terrible block for a back yard, its built on rock, with a lovely big natural rock wall cutting it into two levels that are about 3m wide each... plus the back fence has some giant turpentines growing along it, so not only is the ground full of rocks, most the yard is also shadey! I do have an orange tree, a mandarin tree and a lemon, so far 3 mandies, once, in 2 years... Figs grow well, as youve heard, but man, i want real fruit!

Pears make good roll ups, with a berry. I did apple and strawberry last week, all gone now. Done banana and mango too.

Caerphilly seems easy enough so thats why i chose it! Cant wait to do it. Tuesday i think will work!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 13, 2012, 07:26:35 PM
I of course am wishing for what I can't grow... mangos, avocados, limes, lemons, tangerines... how lucky you are to live where these things grow!  ;)  Sorry you have so little space to grow in.  I've noticed that pear does need some support.  The flavor is a bit mild.  A fun way to really add kick is to dip in lime juice prior to drying.  Green apple are awesome this way too.  What doesn't get better with a highlight of lime?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 14, 2012, 03:19:15 PM
absolutly, i love lime! Wish they werent so expensive, perhaps i should get a tree..? Oh, and most those fruits DONT grow here, i just plant them anyway LOL!! But i used to live where mangoes grow and hated it, im allergic, so while everyone else was sitting in the bath devouring mangoes i was just watching... but i got cherries instead ;) I do like to make fruit butters for piklets and scones or damper too.. got apple and strab in the fridge now, just making some butter at the moment then baking damper for morning tea for the kiddies...

Oh, i dont have a dehydrator, so i have to use the oven, which is not very economical, but mines got a fan only option so its not so bad. just takes a looooooooong time to dry stuff. As soon as my tomatoes ripen im drying a few for 'sun-dried' tomatoes. You have any insights on them anut?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 14, 2012, 04:25:46 PM
Sorry, but all my tomatoes end up sauced.  I did try drying some extra cherry tomatoes years ago, but did not like the result.  If you run into any good tips, pass them along!  Sun drying isn't a good idea if the days aren't hot (100 degrees).  You could end up with spoilage.  I was lucky enough to receive a good dehydrator for my birthday and it's been running every day since then!  Ferment it or dry it, nothing goes to waste around me!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 15, 2012, 02:18:40 PM
my Birthday isnt for ages and i already got a cheese fridge and a stand mixer for christmas... lol We have had the crappest summer. Its cold! like im in my winter dressing gown... i think weve had 2 days hot enough to go swimming. So id never consider trying to sun dry. I'll stick with my oven, but i can see them taking a very long time to dry... Ive got two kinds in the garden, roma and grosse lisse. I'll try the romas first cos i think theyd have more flavour!

Oh, i tried my citrus spray the other day, oh, im in love! Even DS11 liked it so much he cleaned his own bathroom just so he could use the spray!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 15, 2012, 03:00:12 PM
Oh good!  Something to look forward to.  I normally hate cleaning day!  The weather here is pretty weird.  The only constant is that it is never the same as the year before!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 17, 2012, 04:50:02 AM
Ours is weirder, never the same two days in a row! yesterday it was pouring, like flooding kind of rain. Today it was a gorgeous 26 and sunny! but its so wet out side we couldnt send the kids out.

Madea no knead yesterday. it was VERY moist. i think i may actually haveto cut back on the water i use, as its kind a gluey, cant make a sanga out of it. It does have a nice tang though, and makes wonderful toast, except the size i made doesnt fit in the toaster!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 17, 2012, 11:07:33 AM
Kids stuck in the house all day sounds like a recipe for bedlam!  I started 2 no kneads as well.  I'm going to do a two week ferment on one (sourdough rosemary), and a one week ferment on the other (honey 9 grain).  I am going to see if I can somehow sweeten the bread after the ferment of the 9 grain as my Sweety doesn't like sourdough, but is slightly intolerant to wheat.  I'm thinking if I could work in some baking soda and sweetener it might just work, and I should get extra rise from the baking soda.  I made the dough a little wetter to make it easier to mix additives in at the end.  Also, I won't add any wheat flour at the end.  I'll use oatmeal or teff...

You don't really need to follow a recipe to closely for bread.  Just a rough ratio of ingredients will do.  Flour or water are worked in until desired consistency is obtained.  I guess I do knead a tiny bit, but only long enough to mix in any adjustments or additives.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 18, 2012, 02:24:23 PM
Thats part of my problem, i read the original recipe, once, weeks ago. And now i just throw it all together! But this loaf was too moist. My stand mixer doesnt enjoy kneading, which sux cos thats why i bought it. but oh well.... ive been getting the kids to mix the no kneads. I still have to mix a bit, but it helps to have them do some of it, so my shoulder doesnt hurt so much. I think were making a proper foccacia today, my son LOVES it. well they all do really, its bread! And we pinched some fresh rosemary the other day, so it will be a rosemary one!

Oh, theres another bread we make that is brilliant for if your going out. we do a normal bread mix, roll it flat, spread lotsa cheese and ham then roll it up and bake! Toasted sanga for everyone! We also do little twists like that when were having company... mmmmmmm!

The whole loaf is great for us to take when were heading to the park or to watch kids sport. we just slice it up. Its so much nicer than a boring ham and cheese sandwich. Weve done cheese and bacon rolls a few times too. Also we do pizza scrolls a lot! It helps that i can make lunch all at once, instead of baking bread, then cutting it up and making sangas!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 18, 2012, 04:27:50 PM
Cool!  What a useful trick!  A sourdough cheese and salami roll...I'm never gonna lose at this rate!  ;D
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: iratherfly on January 18, 2012, 11:31:31 PM
Anyone here had good experience trying to make sourdough starter with lactic cheesemaking cultures? I would love to give it a try.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 19, 2012, 11:14:57 AM
That's well worth trying!  I use kefir, with a pinch of yeast,  to start mine and I think is much better the the San Francisco starter I made last year.  Let me know how it works out.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 19, 2012, 04:17:59 PM
Im ignorant when it comes to Keffir, i honestly read the word a million times a day and STILL havent even looked into what it is!

Would be worth a try Yoda, but i nominate you to test that one!

Im on a mission to get a caerphilly into my cave today!!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: MrsKK on January 19, 2012, 04:38:50 PM
Anyone here had good experience trying to make sourdough starter with lactic cheesemaking cultures? I would love to give it a try.

I have used clabbered raw milk to jumpstart sourdough bread and it turned out really good.  It was mild enough for my tastes, yet tangy enough for the hubby.  I would guess that lactic cultures would give similar results.  Or you could just try active culture store bought buttermilk.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: linuxboy on January 19, 2012, 04:43:27 PM
Quote
Anyone here had good experience trying to make sourdough starter with lactic cheesemaking cultures? I would love to give it a try.
What do you want to know, Yoav? I have crafted acidity and flavor/aroma profiles before of sourdoughs with primary and adjunct from lactobacilli and Leuconostocs.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 19, 2012, 04:52:07 PM
Damn LB... english please? ROTFL
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 19, 2012, 05:34:46 PM
God love you! You crack me up!  ;D
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 19, 2012, 06:13:58 PM
Caerphilly not impressing me... Looooooooooooooong flocc time, not a good sign! Will see how it goes i spose...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 19, 2012, 06:38:43 PM
Not much else you can do once you've started. Goodluck!  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 20, 2012, 02:56:00 AM
Got it done! Was especially gentle! I cut @ the time i was meant to and had super soft curds, so no stirring. just a lot of jiggling and swishing until they firmed up enough for a gentle stir. Im quite impressed actually. its in the press now... My first stacked and milled cheese and i did ok i reckon!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on January 20, 2012, 04:46:38 AM
Got it done!


(http://www.getleanin12.com/blog/getleanin12.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/get-her-done.png)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 20, 2012, 10:42:40 AM
Congratulations!   ;D  Go Crystal!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 20, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
LOL, tomer!

Any suggestions as to what i can do with the outside of the cheese? i dont want to wax it... but dont want to let it go yucky? rub salt..?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 25, 2012, 03:56:05 PM
I just finished baking a 9 grain, whole wheat & honey bread after a 10 day ferment. Before the ferment I soaked 1/2 cup 9 grain cereal in 1/2 cup boiling water and let it soak until cool.  Made the dough as per my recipe posted earlier, and threw it in the fridge.  After the ferment I added roughly 2 teaspoons of baking soda, and 2-3 tablespoons of honey and kneaded just long enough to mix it in.  Used oat flour for finishing the dough and rolled the exterior in quick oats.  It worked great!  8)  It's not the prettiest looking loaf and you can see the swirls of honey that didn't get mixed in totally (honey browns more).  The texture and taste are... AWESOME!  Happy Dance! You would never know it started life as a sourdough.  It's sweet and rich--very complex and hard to describe.  Hopefully the extended ferment will make it easier for my gluten sensitive boyfriend to handle.  Time will tell!  I'll do even longer ferments in the future.

Update:  Too much honey!  Tastes wonderful with butter or peanut butter, but too sweet for sandwiches.  Next round I will reduce honey to 1 tablespoon or so.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 26, 2012, 03:21:06 PM
Im confused a bit anut... why so long for the ferment? whats the benefits of leaving it that long? why use the baking soda?

Dont get me wrong, 9 grains and honey is DEF my kinda thing, i LOVE it, and i think yours looks umm, RUSTIC! i love the 'look' of home made bread. Ive been slack with the breadmaking of late, been babysitting a caerphilly... and im lazy... lol! No, really, ive been doing yard work, which is on hold again for the rain, which wont go away! Bread today, a no knead to go in the fridge and will do some cheese naan for dinner!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 26, 2012, 04:12:42 PM
Long fermentation is supposed render partly harmless the part of gluten that triggers the immune response. Since he's sensitive but can still have wheat in small amounts, I am hoping this will allow him to enjoy bread without penalty.  Unfortunately, my sweet does not like sourdough bread.  So the challenge was to sweeten the bread after a long ferment.  I added honey to sweeten it and baking soda to neutralize the acidity, and thereby sweeten it further.

He loved it! This is the best tasting 9 grain I've ever made, so I think I will do the extended ferments on all my breads!  I don't think I'll ever make bread the traditional way again!

Me too, it's almost time to start preparing the berry vines, trees and raised beds for spring.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on January 28, 2012, 11:10:11 PM
Aww looks great! I love real multigrain breads with the little bits of crunchy nutty grains! My son says I just like bird seed biscuits.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: MrsKK on January 29, 2012, 08:55:27 AM
Crystal, to return to your orange rind cleaner...do I remember correctly that after you strain out the rind, you mix the liquid with an equal part of vinegar?  So the only liquid used for this is vinegar?

I have a half gallon jar of orange rind soaking in vinegar as we speak.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 29, 2012, 01:39:57 PM
Oh, yep MrsKK, just Vinegar! 50/50 with the orange vinegar and plain vinegar. Just store the rest in a dark place (under the sink ;))
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 29, 2012, 08:13:26 PM
Here's my second long ferment experiment.  I think two weeks was just a bit too long. ::)  The girls (chickens) will love it.  They love all my failures... aren't they sweet, always trying to spare my feelings!  :)

Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 29, 2012, 09:07:22 PM
Was it hard like my last one?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 29, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
No, it wasn't hard, just flat.  You could tell working with it that structure that holds bread together, and allows it to rise, was gone.  It's get up and go, got up and went! The flavor wasn't good enough to make me forgive it either! On the bright side, it's so easy to make bread this way that occasional flops aren't too painful.   Now I know how far I can push an extended fermentation.   :) 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 29, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
Thats true! Its always a shame to throw out food because you stuffed up. I dont even have chookies to give it too! Mine goes to the compost!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on January 30, 2012, 11:23:36 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean.  I have great difficulty wasting anything!  So having critters is a godsend!  Compost works too!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on January 31, 2012, 12:43:46 AM
yeah, i dont mind giving some things to the compost, i know it will feed my garden for a long time! Tho, i do need a bigger compost... i have tomoatoes popping up everywhere i used the last batch, guess it didnt kill the seeds, meaning its not getting hot enough!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 05, 2012, 07:58:53 PM
I ran another batch of 9 grain bread with the intent of reducing the sweetness (I used too much honey on the last one) so it could be used with cheese.  I inadvertently erred in the reverse direction.  I added a 1/2 cup of buttermilk and reduced the honey to 1 tablespoon.  I completely forgot to knead in baking soda after fermentation.  It went wild and rose to twice the volume of the other batch in my fridge.  I decided to finish it on day 5 and oh my.... can we say SOUR.  This bread has a serious pucker factor. I've never been able to get this kind of sour with traditional methods of breadmaking, and I wasn't even trying for sour.   I think the addition of buttermilk caused the extra over the top sourness to develop.  So now I know what to do for me occasionally, as I love sour.  The extra flavors and texture of the 9 grains and whole wheat are a real added bonus for this loaf. ^-^ My sweet won't be too happy about it though.  He hates sourdough. 

I've really been having a lot of fun with this.  I'm so glad you started this thread Crystal!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 12, 2012, 03:21:15 PM
Me too! I make so much bread that sometimes it gets boring, and you often forget that even something as simple as that cold be interseting to others! Its been a lot more fun since i started this. I did do some american dinner rolls the other day and a big loaf of honey and oat bread, which is DEVINE as toast with extra honey! We've done a few more of the ham and cheese picnic loaves, damn they are good! Another favourite is foccacia with sun-dried tomato pesto brushed on before baking. We just slice it up warm and eat it as is...

I do have a question though: Here in australia we have a thing called a 'Finger Bun'. Its a sweet bread that usually has pink icing and coconut or sprinkles (100's & 1000's) on top. A lot of the time it has sultanas in it too. Now ive been looking for a recipe thats similar but havent found it yet. Does anyone here make any kind of sweet buns that i can trial?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 12, 2012, 04:20:10 PM
Yes, taking the work out of it, put the fun back into it!  ;D   It's easy to forget things and my note taking is terrible, which can make it hard to recreate a total success!  I just make it up as I go!  :)  I'm going to do a roll up bread with butter, sharp cheddar and apples for Valentines Day, and I'm really looking forward to trying one of your picnic loaves.

I've never heard of a finger bun. 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Bob on February 12, 2012, 04:33:06 PM
Hey Crystal, I love finger buns too, but not with coconut, must be 100's & 1000's or cinnamon with pink icing! Here is a photo.  Plenty of recipies on the net, try Taste.com.au or Food.com and search for "finger buns".
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 13, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Sometimes you get lucky!  I overstuffed this bread to the point of certain doom!  But this time I got away with it!  This is as tasty as it looks.  It's a delightful marriage of apples, caerphilly cheese, pecan, and plenty of butter!  Brush a small amount of the sweet, buttery, lemon, and cinnamon topping and life is truly good!  ^-^  I confess, I did end up have to do some kneading on this one. 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 14, 2012, 03:36:36 PM
yes bob, thats them!! Maybe im doing something wrong with the recipes, cos mine are always quite firm, not as soft and fluffy as the shop ones... Will look and try one today.

Anut: THAT BREAD LOOKS AMAZING!! OMG, i dont even like cooked apples but i WANT that bread! Can you share the whole recipe for me pretty please??
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 14, 2012, 05:00:21 PM
Thanks Crystal,

Sure, I'll post it after I get it down in print.  This was another "make it up as I go along special".  ;D
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 15, 2012, 01:34:00 PM
Mmmm I would be all over those breads Anut!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 15, 2012, 06:50:25 PM
Here's what I did.  I would suggest cutting through the middle  to make sure it's cooked all the way through.  If not just pop the two halves back in the loaf and cook longer.

Bread swirled with fruit, cheese and nuts.

Bread:
¾ cup cottage cheese
1 egg
½ sourdough starter
¼ to ½ water (just add water until you get the consistency you want.)
2 tablespoons honey
16 ounce whole wheat flour
¼ cup powdered milk
1 ½ tsp salt

Knead only long enough to mix ingredients and any adjustments of flour or water.

Leave out for 2 hours, then put in refrigerator for 4 days.

Pull out and let warm up for an hour.  Knead in:
2 tsp baking soda
2 tsp baking powder
Add flour or water as needed to get a good consistency.

Filling:
½ cup butter (2 tablespoons of this are for the glaze)
8 oz sharp cheddar
2 cups apples peeled and chopped
1 cup pecans chopped
½ cup sugar

Roll out dough into a rectangle and brush both sides with butter. 

Grease a 9x5 loaf pan.  Spread filling over surface of the bread, roll it up carefully, and tuck the ends down into the pan.  You will need a scraper or something similar to help you roll the dough.

Let rise for 2 hours.

Cook and 325 degrees for 1 hour and 20 minutes.  Part way thru you will want to put foil over the top so it doesn’t brown too much.

Glaze:
1/3 cup sugar
1 tablespoon water
1 ½ tablespoon lemon juice
2 tablespoon butter
½ tsp cinnamon

Mix and spread over top of warm bread, or keep separate and brush on each slice separately—less messy that way.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 15, 2012, 10:41:07 PM
Wonder bread lady!! This is definatly something i will be trying very soon! Thanks so much for writting it down anut!!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 16, 2012, 05:04:07 PM
Oh GOD! Even even looks better with the recipe listed!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 16, 2012, 07:47:47 PM
Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 23, 2012, 03:46:33 PM
Just so you know, we did a nice oat no knead the other day and served it with my fresh spiced fig butter that i made ;) Delicious!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on February 23, 2012, 05:28:59 PM
I was on a trip with my dad and older brother this week to watch some ancient building sites and see some white snowy peaks.   
My brother bought several styles of local goat tommes and I made some bread.
I went with a fairly high hydration dough (80%) which is essentially a chiabeta , 15% of the total flour was a liquid lavin sourdough and 30% of the total final dough was whole wheat.   It was a terrific batard.
I did alot of folding to develope the gluten during fermentation and it was very nice to work with.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 23, 2012, 05:31:39 PM
That sounds wonderful Crystal!  :P  I'm getting ready to pop a potato dill, and sourdough bread in the oven today.  I'm getting quite spoiled.  How did you like your figs?  I so envy you that!  I adore figs, but it's going to be very challenging to grow them here!

Yours sound tasty too Tomer1.  Between homemade bread and cheese I have yet to lost much weight this winter!  ::)

First loaf is done, but I'm going to postpone the other until later.   This is one of the strangest looking loaves I've ever made! I made the slash marks but after that...??? Maybe the tapioca flour I finished it with browns faster...  Tastes great!  Make a note, add 4 x as much dill as you think you need!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 24, 2012, 03:42:51 PM
Sounds like a great weekend Tomer!

And i agree anut, that is truly the weirdest looking bread ive ever seen. Hope it tasted good though? Im not making bread today, but have the milk for a fetta, so will get that started a bit later, Im on a mission to get some stuff sewn for my etsy shop, since i am always so busy with other things it gets neglected, and i have the morning free of the baby twins, so its sewing time!

Oh, the figs are 'ok' but that could just be cos i dont really like them.,. I dont know if the butter should be brown like fig jam usually is... I have white figs... But mines kinda green butter, so it doesnt look that good... Any one else know what it should look like when made with white figs?
Also, to about 2L of the butter i added 1tsp of lemon juice at the end and the lemon is quite strong in the flavour. Im hoping it will fade a little, but i have no idea!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 24, 2012, 04:44:55 PM
The lemon is likely to stay...  Good luck with your feta!  Free time from the little ones and your going to sew?  That doesn't sound fun... but then sewing is surrounded by lot's of cussing when it's me operating that darn machine!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 26, 2012, 02:04:15 PM
Oh, i like to sew, i get fully absorbed in it and forget to eat most the time! And i did sew too. Managed 13 new items for my shop!

Its ok, i dont mind the lemon flavour!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 26, 2012, 02:18:30 PM
Awsome ladies what time is lunch?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 26, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
A lunch on line... that could get brutal as we wave favorite dishes under each others noses!  Of course, we kinda do that anyway!  >:D
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 26, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html[/url] ([url]http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html[/url])

No knead bread from the new york times... sounds like normal bread to me, but for lazy people...


LOL well texturally speaking it is different - much lighter if done right. Not all bread requires kneading but some days it's just fun to knead dough!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Corina on February 27, 2012, 01:09:29 AM
How nice to find such a topic here where is all cheese! ;)
I also make sourdough bread, I love whole grain mixes, we cannot eat bought bread anymore, lacks the taste.
Some of my forst breads. I have to perfect my scoring , that is a hard thing. >:(
http://family.webshots.com/photo/2002749850099273441iewHNn (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2002749850099273441iewHNn)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on February 27, 2012, 03:27:30 AM
Kewl! Debi, lunch here is between 12 and 2, depending on how old you are! Every one is always welcome!

I just poped in to say i have thrown together a batch of raisin bread no-knead fashion for cooking tomorrow. I do need a bit of cinnamon in it still as i just found it on the bench and realised i havent put it in the bread LOL! No matter, i'll work it in tomorrow!

I personally dont eat raisin bread, but kids here LOVE it! Ive also got a new recipe for finger buns, which i will do this week, and i found a recipe for crumpets and gave DH instructions to buy egg rings. hmm, OH yeah i got a flour tortilla recipe too! Oh, and 'fetta' didnt happen, DH drank half the milk i had!! So he will be getting more and i'll have to do it the next day since bread and cheese dont mix!

Well, thats me for now ;)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 27, 2012, 11:04:50 AM
When you said scoring, do you mean slashing the top before baking?  I bought a sashimi knife for cutting fish and rolls, but is also works beautifully for slashing bread--It's very sharp!

The no knead bread I'm making is denser than traditionally made bread, but the flavors are great and it's so much easier/convenient.  Besides, I kinda like dense breads with chewy crusts.   
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on February 27, 2012, 12:03:50 PM
Overly dense suggest that you might be over proofing it and it eventually collapses.
The whole idea is developing very airly light loaf.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 27, 2012, 01:10:38 PM
I don't proof it at all.  I let it sit out for 2 hours, and then I throw in the refrigerator and forget about for 4-6 days.  Then I mix in 2 teaspoon of baking soda (I don't do this if I want sourdough) and shape the loaf and let it sit out a few hours until it has doubled in size.  I poke every now and then so I don't accidently leave it rising too long.  Often, if I'm hungry, I don't wait nearly long enough before baking and I like to add things that make for a toothsome, but more heavy loaf.

There are a lot of us out there who don't care for airbread.  The point in making bread is to enjoy the process and love eating the results.  If I want airbread i'll go the store and buy Wonder Bread.   

I stopped baking bread  because it was hurting my forearm to knead for 20 minutes and I had to be constantly vigil to make sure it was punched down at the right times through out the day.  I wasn't having fun.  Now it's fun and I'm getting awesome flavors with the extended ferments and a much more digestible product.  Not the least, I'm getting sourdoughs far more sour than I was ever able to get the traditional way.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Corina on February 27, 2012, 01:29:00 PM
Yes, by scoring I mean slashing.Thank you for the tip with that knife.
I make my brad with proofing overnight in the fridge.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 27, 2012, 01:57:36 PM
Hi Corina,

It's nice letting the fridge do the work for you!  :)  If you roll the bread in oats or sesame seeds, I don't think the knife exists that will slash well.  You just up distorting the dough and only get a very minimal cut. 

Happy thoughts,
anut  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 27, 2012, 07:25:48 PM
I have several knives I have not had problems slashing with. I sharpen before each use or dress at least.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 27, 2012, 07:31:35 PM
Even thru rolled oats?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 27, 2012, 08:27:43 PM
Maybe never tried oats but bet it would if freshly sharpened. I can almost shave with my knives and they aren't expensive ones either.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 27, 2012, 10:52:22 PM
Try it when you get the chance! If you can do it I will want to know what knife you use, because I want it!   :) My sashimi knife is the sharpest knife I have ever worked with, but trying to cut thru oats with such a soft surface undereath them...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Corina on February 27, 2012, 11:08:06 PM
Well, I am not so experienced, mabe I need more practice ;D
As for the knives, I also have some pretty good ones. I love cooking and what is a good cook without a special knife.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 28, 2012, 08:56:49 PM
I am not sure even a razor will cut through oats on risen bread, but I can easily slice cuts through the tops of my loaves with almost all of my knives.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 29, 2012, 12:01:44 AM
Razors won't either.  I tried a number of them several years ago.  I think it's just best to not roll bread in such things if you're planning to slash later.  I agree, any knife properly sharped will do the job.  It just needs to be very sharp!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 29, 2012, 02:55:01 PM
I do not like working with hack  saws - I like a sharp knive. I do a lot of prep work and a dull knive makes it more like work in stead of fun.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 29, 2012, 03:19:56 PM
A little exercise never hurts now an then... how else would I get my aerobic work outs?  ;)  Well I suppose I could get back into kneading bread...  ::)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 29, 2012, 03:25:06 PM
Not me! I need sharp knives. I hate mashed bread and tomatoes!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 29, 2012, 03:29:03 PM
 :)  Bread knives are awesome for tomatoes, but how do you sharpen one? 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on February 29, 2012, 05:02:36 PM
You dont, its more of a saw then it is a knife.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on February 29, 2012, 08:23:32 PM
There are some people and some companies that will resharpen and serated knive but it is usually cheaper to buy a new one unless it  is a VERY pricey knive. Some blades are designed so that nothing hit the sharpest part of the knife so they don't get dull if used properly. I have a few 40 year old Cutco knives  the Double D edge (they don't say serated) that are still very sharp and I used to sell them back in 1972 so I had to hack at wood, leather, tin cans and all sorts of stuff with them. They were pricey then, you probably have to give your first born male child nowadays!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on February 29, 2012, 11:57:43 PM
Thanks, I've always wondered about that.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on March 03, 2012, 02:19:32 PM
My knives are all really sharp too. Being a Chef, it one of the first things they teach you. It comes under Saftey. Your more likely to cut yourself with a blunt knife than a sharp one!

Is it bad that sometimes i dont slash my bread..?
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on March 03, 2012, 03:03:12 PM
No? Why would be? I slash because it looks interesting and it creates lots of chewy crunchy crust.  :P  I'm lazy when it comes to sharpening.  My knives are notoriously dull, expect for my fillet and sashimi knives, those I keep sharp.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Corina on March 04, 2012, 12:01:54 AM
Slashing influences the oven spring a great deal.
The slashing is meant to createa tension break in that spot, and let the bread rise upwards instead on on the sides. If the dough has been properlly worked and the outer surface has enough tension, that makes the bread rise on the sides as much as in the middle. Breaking that tension on the upper side, and somewhat in the middle, helps give the bread the push for raising fully.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on March 04, 2012, 06:44:37 AM
The yeast during their final minutes in the oven inferno produce a fairly large volume of co2,
The slashs are essentially pressure release valves or pre-designed weak spots to prevent blowouts in the crust.
 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: MrsKK on March 04, 2012, 10:12:13 AM
Hey, Debi!  My daughter sells Cutco.  Fortunately, they have a payment plan or I wouldn't be able to afford them.  I'm gradually building up my set.  They are great knives and I can't wait to try the shears and filet knife when I butcher chickens.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on March 04, 2012, 11:04:09 AM
Thanks for the input on slashing everyone.  Always nice to learn something.  :)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: iratherfly on March 09, 2012, 04:05:55 PM
Slashing is an art form!  Harder to get right on highly hydrated doughs like the no-knead types (but you can use kitchen shears).
Slashing TOTALLY changes the shape of the loaf.

slash in a criss-cross pattern or as a square, and even the longest batard will attempt to rise as a round boule. If you have a round boule it will rise evenly.
Cut in straight lines and it will widen against them, so if your loaf is round and you cut it as ||| -it will square off and become wide and long. If your loaf is long and you slash it as ||| it will widen and shorten. If your loaf is long and you slash it as ===, it will lengthen and turn narrower.  If however you slash it diagonally //// , your loaf will rise at the same proportions as it looks in front of you. Experienced bakers do a combination of cuts in different directions that would result in a final desired shape balance.  I think that you can get the hang of it by doing about 10 loaves or so.

Slashing isn't just pretty and good for the shape; it provide a weak point in the crust that breaches as it rises, so instead of letting the loaf decide on its own where it will break up and tear a "wild fissure", you are deciding where this will happen by providing the weak points. If you don't do it, the fissure will almos always defelop where you don't want it, across the bottom of one of the sides. It's annoying... 

To prepare for a good slash, you need to practice some loaf forming where the most stressed and tensioned area is the top of the loaf. Also over-rising it before baking will make an ineffective slash and oven spring.

I use a lame to slash but in softer loaves I find that an serrated meat carving knife works well. You can also do good things with shears if you practice them. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on March 09, 2012, 10:09:05 PM
That most certainly does help!  Thanks iratherfly!  A cheese to you for that indepth lesson in slashing! :)  I've always gotten great oven spring, but I thought keeping the oven steamy for the first 10-20 minutes was what allowed that to happen.  I'm too impatient to eat, to ever over-rise dough.  ;D  I'll be sure to try out some different slashes on my next loaves.

Found out which flour was causing the neat color effects and swirling on my last potato dill bread.  It's the baking soda I knead in before shaping the loaf (to neutralize the acid after fermentation).  I'm going to have some fun with this on future loaves as the effect is pretty. 
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: DeejayDebi on March 10, 2012, 12:00:36 AM
Karen -
My Cutco is from 1971 and the Double D edges are sharp as ever and we all know I use my knives a lot. I have lostt a few over the years. Just for comparison I have no idea what they are now but it 1971 I sold the small kitchenette set for $379. A Slicing knife, French chefs knife, carving knife, paring knive, carving fork, and spring steel spatcula!  Weird I can remember that but not where I just put my coffee cup.


Great bread Anut!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on April 21, 2012, 09:57:02 PM
Wow, the art of slashing! What if i wanted a square top loaf, like from the bakers? I only ask because the rounded top bread doesnt fit well in the plastic sanga boxes the boys use for school...
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: anutcanfly on April 21, 2012, 10:16:19 PM
Welcome back Crystal.  It's been too quiet without you!  ;)
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on April 21, 2012, 10:23:28 PM
I know, ive missed being here! Ive had a hard time lately with kids being sick, my nanny away and flooding here in sydney... plus the second etsy shop i opened has been a lot of work. With easter in the middle ive had practically no time for anything and still have a list of things i should be doing.

But i raised the noise by postingva few questions here already today!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on April 22, 2012, 04:11:26 AM
Quote
What if i wanted a square top loaf
Then use a loaf tin , bake on low heat (as low as 160c)  to prevent hardening of the crust so it can expand all the way up to the end of the bake.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on April 22, 2012, 03:43:09 PM
Really tomer? Its that simple? I usually use a loaf tin for regular bread anyway, and all i havr to do is turn the oven down!!
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Tomer1 on April 22, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
Yep, dont target high hydration as you dont want holes but a fairly dense crumb.  perhaps 600 ml of water per 1kg of bread. you can also use eggs and oil to enrich it.      I think a Hhalla is a perfect sandwich bread for for a square loaf. 

Personally I prefer buns for "portable bread" since they are easly frozen and defrosted in the morning to maintain freshness for 1-2 weeks.
Title: Re: My Sourdough, from scratch
Post by: Crystal on April 28, 2012, 08:25:53 PM
Ok, oven down and less water!! And any particular slashing?