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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Grana (Grating Cheesee) => Topic started by: mjr522 on August 27, 2013, 03:08:14 AM

Title: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on August 27, 2013, 03:08:14 AM
I hope to do a 12-gallon Parmesan make this coming weekend.  I've never done a 12-gallon make, never made a parmesan (never used a thermophilic culture, for that matter...), and never used my 10 inch Gouda mold before.  As you can see, there's a lot of room for messing up here.  I'd like to present my plan for comments/critique/inputs.

12 gallons p/h skim milk
2 quarts heavy cream
2 cups thermophilic "bulk culture" (made the night before)
3 tsp CaCl
1 1/2 tsp rennet
1/2 tsp lipase

- Heat milk to 92 F
- Add culture + lipase, let sit for 5 minutes
- Add CaCl, then rennet
- Floc multiplier of 2
- Cut slowly to bean sized curds
- rest 10 minutes
- stir and heat to 124 F over 60 minutes
- let settle
- drain and hoop at pH 6.4
- press, light to heavy until pH 5.4
- brine

So, my questions/concerns:
- I've never used lipase before, is 1/2 a tsp a good place to start?  It's labeled, "mild".
- My milk has been starting at fairly low pHs, like 6.5 +/- 0.05.  How much lower than 6.4 can I drain before I start having texture or flavor issues? (I know that's a somewhat subjective question...just looking for other people's thoughts)
- What do you think of dry salting this?  I'm not sure what I could brine this in (my bathtub?  :o) that wouldn't require me making a lot more brine than I want to.
- Other thoughts?

Thanks!

Mike
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: tnbquilt on August 28, 2013, 12:47:36 AM
Brining in the tub might be somewhat of a hazard, although my husband has put his engine in the tub before. Do you know the old red neck job about moving the transmission out of the tub so you can take a bath? Ours was the engine, and then it remained in the bedroom for a year or so.

I was also wondering about adding lipase, I have never done that. What flavor does it bring? I hear it enhances the flavor. I'd like a better description.

I bought a parmesan and an asiago tonight and I am going to try them later this week and decide which one I want to make first. I'm sure that I will make both eventually.

I am sticking to 4 gallon batches, as that seems to have maxed out all of my equipment. I'm good with 4 gallons, over that I need a new pot and a new mold and possible alterations to my cheese press
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on August 28, 2013, 01:52:36 AM
That's a great story about the engine in the tub.  I'm pretty sure my wife would fire me if I tried that.

I don't know what flavor lipase brings, either.  I just know that it is "recommended"...by some people.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Smurfmacaw on August 28, 2013, 03:26:33 AM
Not sure I'd try using the bathtub.  That would be a LOT of salt to make a saturated brine deep enough to be effective.  I'd just use a 5 gallon bucket from home depot (two or three bucks).  You'd probably only have to make three gallons of brine that way and save a lot of salt.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on August 28, 2013, 03:59:44 AM
If I do have to do brine, I'll do a bucket like you've said (I use one when I drain my vat).  I'm a little concerned with the clearance around the edges of the cheese.  I haven't looked really closely at it yet, though.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: gsager18 on August 28, 2013, 06:07:57 AM
It'll definitely fit in whatever pot you use to heat the milk in the first place, right? Although depending on the material of the pot and how long you're brining for it might not be great for it.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Tiarella on August 28, 2013, 10:44:52 AM
 I'm wicked impressed at your 12 gallon make plans!  Wow!   About Lipase, most threads about it say WAY less is better.  I followed recommendations to halve the amount and when I handle my 12 month aged Parm. (it's now in wedges) for grating my hands smell of that sharp lipase smell and it's hard to get rid of.  it's great as a cheese though and a major thrill to make our own pesto with home grown basil, garlic, and parm!  I'll never grow our own olive oil but once my hazelnuts and walnuts are producing more it'll be our own nuts too.

Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Tiarella on August 28, 2013, 10:49:37 AM
Oops!  Forgot to add my idea for brining.  If a local deli will sell you a large cheese wooden round "box" you could drape a piece of food grade plastic in there to make it water tight and brine in that.  Come to think of it, you could do that with any appropriately sized box.  I don't know the guidelines about how much brine you need but logic tells me you can't just create enough to surround the cheese in a container not much bigger than the cheese.  There must be enough salt available for that sized cheese to absorb.  maybe a question about that should be posted on the "Problems/Questions" board?
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Boofer on August 28, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
Assuming my Devil's Advocate pose...

I have yet to make a parm, though I hope to make a massive one in a week.
Just a thought, Mike...have you thought about making a smaller version Parmesan first? Maybe 4-6 gallons?

Not to rain on your parade, but it seems like a smaller "practice" Parm would make the procedure clearer for you at the outset. The logistics for this 12-gallon make seem a little overwhelming to me. Perhaps after you've gone through the process successfully with a smaller version, then you'd be better prepared to upscale the process. ???

Thinking too about the aging time for a 12-gallon cheese versus one that is one third or one half that size.... :P

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on August 29, 2013, 02:54:01 AM
gsager--it will certainly fit in there, but I think I'd need about 6 gallons of brine for that to work.

Tia--thanks for all the thoughts.  I think I'm planning on using about half of the lipase that one of the recipes recommended.  I've got stuff that I could put the brine it, but your ideas seem like good ones.  I really just don't want to make up that much brine, but I probably ought to.  If this works (and probably even if it doesn't), I'm going to make other big cheeses that will need to be brined, too.  There is certainly a relationship between the amount of salt available and the amount taken up.  I've thought a few times about how much diffusion and mass transport there is in cheese making.  Someday I'll have to get some text books that describe those things so I can do my own calculations ('cause I'm a nerd like that...).

Boofer--of course you're right, and we all know it.  Luckily, I'm too excited about a big cheese and too foolhardy to listen to reason or good sense.  I have lots of good justifications for why I should just go for it--none of them are actually sufficiently good reasons, but because there are so many of them, I can lay aside the common sense that dictates I do what you've suggested.

I don't know that I've ever seen anything that discusses the relationship between size and aging.  Do larger cheeses need to age longer?

Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on August 29, 2013, 06:57:32 AM
Hi Mike,

After making your saturated brine for your huge parm, you could then take some of the brine and work out how much salt you can add to resaturate your brine.  That will tell you how much was absorbed.  If you then kept track of this information for a variety of sizes of parms, you could see if there was a relationship between size of the cheese (as measured by total mass and/or surface area) and salt uptake.  If you did this for a variety of cheeses, you could see if that relationship was similar for cheese types, or if each type had it's own characteristic function.

This, of course, would mean you would have to make lots of different cheese types, in all sorts of sizes.  But, for some reason, I get the feeling that isn't a downside for you! :)

You can also keep the brine after you use it for your parm and use it for other cheeses, so it doesn't have to be thrown out.  Just boil it again, add salt back in - assuming you have somewhere you could store a large bucket of brine, of course.

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: jwalker on August 29, 2013, 02:24:00 PM
I would be a little leery of making a cheese that big , if anything were to go wrong , well , it would be a BIG letdown , not to mention the cost.

However , on the other hand , if it turns out good , how impressive it will be !

And really , there's no reason it shouldn't turn out well , bigger wheels are made everyday.

Dohhhhh.............I don't know , just go for it and good luck. ;D

Looking forward to seeing the end product.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on August 31, 2013, 10:48:32 PM
Well, it's mostly done.  It deviated significantly from my pH targets--in large part, I believe, because of the milk.  I keep saying I need to get a new source, but Sam's club milk is just so cheap.  When I added the culture, the milk pH was already at 6.48.  I didn't get to drain until 6.05.  I'm a little concerned this will be all crumbly when it's done because of the low draining pH.  We'll see...in about a year.

Here's the curd right after draining.
[img width= height= alt=curds pushed to side of pot by strainer]https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1240421_390197421105704_1361608207_n.jpg[/img]
I haven't yet weighed the cheese, so I don't know what the yield was, though it seems lower than I expected.  It's pressing right now.  I was very impressed with how well it knit together while I was draining it.  I pressed it under whey for the first 15 minutes, then increased the pressure and flipped a number of times until it is now under about 7.5 psi.  Judging from how it looked after the last flip (5.6 psi), this should be as high as I need to go.
[img width= height= alt=cheese pressing]https://sphotos-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1235151_390197417772371_1619327235_n.jpg[/img]
I decided on brining in a 5 gallon bucket.  I'm concerned about the small amount of clearance between the edge of the bucket and the cheese, though.  I'm hoping that, since it is a relatively flat cheese, the large surface area on the bottom will allow for sufficient salt uptake.

Other than the pH's being so far off, this was a relatively fun and easy make.  My current set up has barely enough power to do this size make.  I think I could do a larger cheese if I augment with some heating help from the stove, but there's not a whole lot more room in the vat (another 4 gallons, perhaps).
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on August 31, 2013, 11:31:05 PM
Nice!  Keep us posted and show a photo when it's out of the press and brine. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 02:29:34 AM
Jeff--was it you that posted a formula for calculating brine time based on dimensions?  I need to decide how long to brine this thing for...
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on September 01, 2013, 05:08:47 AM
Hi Mike,

The rule of thumb that I got from here is 1 hour per inch of height per lb (i.e. a 3 lbs cheese that was 4 inches thick is brined 3x4 so 12 hours).

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 05:32:39 AM
Thanks, Jeff.  So, mine is 8.3 lbs (heavier than I expected), but only 3 inches thick (thinner than I expected...so more dense than I expected, too).  That means I should brine it for 3x8=24 hours.  Sound right?

The cheese cloth stuck to it more than I liked, and the side the cloth came over on was not terribly smooth, but the rest of the cheese looked good...except for the embedded dog hair.  :-[
[img width= height= alt=cheese on scale reading 8.28 lbs]https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1235260_390305064428273_1618653952_n.jpg[/img]
I guess I'll let you know how it tastes in a year...
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on September 01, 2013, 05:56:10 AM
Hi Mike,

To be precise, 3 * 8.3 would be 25 hours, but I won't tell if you don't! :)  That sounds about right I think.  Looks pretty good to me.  I envision lots of spaghetti in about a years time.

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 02:36:27 PM
Thanks, Jeff. You'd fit right in with the engineering class I teach.

"So, this member has a mass of 8 kg, and thus produces a weight of 80 Newtons." I explain.  A kid with scruntched up eyebrows says, "My calculator says it's 78.48 Newtons."  To which I reply, "Sure, 80."  Then, the half asleep kid asks, "Can I do that on the exam?"
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Boofer on September 01, 2013, 03:31:47 PM
I don't know that I've ever seen anything that discusses the relationship between size and aging.  Do larger cheeses need to age longer?
First of all, kudos for stepping into the void and having the courage to make a larger cheese. :)

I'm no expert on this but it seems like a cheese with more girth would require more aging. My meager experience with cheese size and aging has shown me that small cheeses ripen through to the core much faster than their larger cousins.

I offer this link (http://www.parmesan.com/craftsmanship/aged-parmesan-cheese/) which demonstrates subtle differences in length of affinage.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 04:09:08 PM
Boofer--that article certainly points out the effects of longer aging.  I don't understand all (or any, really) of the mechanisms that contribute to cheese aging.  I'll need to do a little more research on that topic (I can add it to my list of things to learn).  It would be nice to understand the relationship between cheese size and aging requirements so I could plan accordingly.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: tnbquilt on September 01, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
In Caldwell's book she says that you have to brine a the grating cheeses longer than other cheeses. It's at the beginning of the chapter before the recipes. She says 12 hours per lb. I think that's a little much.

I made an Asiago yesterday, and I used Peter Dixon's recipe and it says to brine 5 or 6 hours per lb. That makes my 4 lb cheese brine for 24 hours.

It kills me that they can't agree on brining time, but since I used PD's recipe I will brine by his instructions.

Just throwing that out there to confuse the situation a little.

I expected your cheese to be much larger than that, and it only weighed 8lbs. No doubt that's a big cheese, bigger than anything I've ever made, I was just thinking it would be larger than that.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Boofer on September 01, 2013, 07:36:03 PM
I expected your cheese to be much larger than that, and it only weighed 8lbs. No doubt that's a big cheese, bigger than anything I've ever made, I was just thinking it would be larger than that.
Interesting...12 gallons of milk...8 pounds of cheese.

By my calcs:
-Boofer-
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Geodyne on September 01, 2013, 08:48:56 PM
Isn't that the average yield for a parmesan make? I've just pulled out a reference which suggests to expect a 7.5% yield for a parmesan. I thought it was because the lower milk solids and fat content in the milk once adjusted make for a lower yield but consequently firmer cheese.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 09:24:09 PM
Tammy--That's funny.  I thought I had read 3 hours per pound in caldwell's book, so Jeff's instructions seemed to line up perfectly.  I just looked again an the brining instructions and figured out the confusion.  She says, "...brine for 12 hours per pound (6 hours per kg)...".  I only saw the 6 hours/kg which works out to 24 hours.  If it's really 6/lb, then I need 48 hours, and if it's 12/lb I need 96 hours!  That seems like a really long time--especially since the cheese is so flat.  All that surface area should allow a more rapid uptake of salt.  The books I've got all go for somewhere around 20 hours for 2 gallons, but also for 4 gallons of milk.  It makes me wonder about the uptake curve.  I'm really not sure what's best to do, so if any one know for certain, I'd appreciate the help.

Tammy and Boofer-- Yeah, I was under the impression that parm's yield was about 8%, so I go a little more than I expected.  This experience was good enough, though, that I'll be trying other 12 gallon (maybe up to 15) cheeses at some point in the future.  Those will be beefy cheeses.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on September 01, 2013, 09:53:45 PM
Interesting.  Perhaps we need two thumbs, for two rules, one for grating cheeses and one for non-grating cheeses - leaving bloomy rinds right out of the rule book for now as we've used up our thumbs!

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 02, 2013, 04:22:54 AM
Well, it's decision time...If my cheese should only be in the brine for 24 hours, it needs to come out soon.  I've done a little bit of reasoning, and I think I'll pull it out.  Here's what I figure.  Feel free to chime in to tell me you agree or think I've missed something.  I figure that what matters more than the mass of the cheese is the ratio of the volume to surface area.  I presume that the rate of salt uptake is a function of the surface area present, and that the diffusion within the cheese depends on the gradient of salt within the cheese (which should be a function of the shape and total volume).  If I assume a cheese with the same height as mine, but smaller diameter, then I get a smaller volume/surface area ratio.  This smaller ratio tells me that that cheese needs to stay in the brine longer to get the same weight percentage of salt into the cheese.  If this is the case, I may have over brined mine...
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on September 02, 2013, 05:44:57 AM
I'm sure it will be fine either way.  Good job on the big make.

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Boofer on September 02, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
Well, it's decision time...If my cheese should only be in the brine for 24 hours, it needs to come out soon.  I've done a little bit of reasoning, and I think I'll pull it out.  Here's what I figure.  Feel free to chime in to tell me you agree or think I've missed something.  I figure that what matters more than the mass of the cheese is the ratio of the volume to surface area.  I presume that the rate of salt uptake is a function of the surface area present, and that the diffusion within the cheese depends on the gradient of salt within the cheese (which should be a function of the shape and total volume).  If I assume a cheese with the same height as mine, but smaller diameter, then I get a smaller volume/surface area ratio.  This smaller ratio tells me that that cheese needs to stay in the brine longer to get the same weight percentage of salt into the cheese.  If this is the case, I may have over brined mine...
And is this going to be on the Final Exam? :-\

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: jwalker on September 02, 2013, 03:04:22 PM
A 100 pound wheel of Parmigiano Reggiano is brined for 20-25 days , which averages out to roughly 5.5 hours per pound.

But that's a way bigger cheese than yours , not sure what the surface are would be compared to yours either .

Congrats on the big cheese either way , I'm sure it will be delicious.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 02, 2013, 04:24:53 PM
And is this going to be on the Final Exam? :-\

If we get a guest lecturer who is an expert to confirm, yes.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: JeffHamm on September 02, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
And, of course, the saturation of the brine would come into these calculations as well.  Isn't cheese fun!  Tell your sleeping student just put 42 for everything and see how it goes.

- Jeff
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 03, 2013, 05:52:07 PM
I noticed a few very small cracks in the rind last night.  The cheese was in the cave, and the hummidity, according to the meter stayed between 78% and 93%.  From when I've looked in, it generally has been hovering around 88%.  I put a container over the cheese for the night, and found a few more small cracks this morning.  I put a wet cloth in the container to raise the hummidity even more, but I'm wondering if something other than too rapid drying is causing the little cracks.  Any thoughts?  What would you do about the little cracks?  I seem to remember something about putting butter in small cracks...

I'll try to get a picture tonight.
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: Tiarella on September 03, 2013, 09:27:15 PM
I put coconut oil all over it when that happens.  OR....you could wash with a water/salt mix to rehumidify.  Olive oil has worked for me as well. 
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 06, 2013, 12:43:39 AM
The cracks aren't so bad after keeping the humidity around 90%, but I still put butter over them.  The pictures don't really show the cracks very clearly, but here they are anyway:
[img width= height= alt=cracks]https://sphotos-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1231074_392462407545872_242611355_n.jpg[/img]
[img width= height= alt=more cracks]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1175172_392462410879205_368776159_n.jpg[/img]
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: mjr522 on September 18, 2013, 04:10:55 AM
About 3 1/2 weeks old.  I filled the cracks with some butter.  It seems to have been absorbed into the cheese.  I think I'll coat it in oil tomorrow and see about taking it out of its container...

[img width= height= alt=parmesan at 3 1/2 weeks old]https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1234303_397304440395002_649604885_n.jpg[/img]
Title: Re: 12-gallon Parmesan plan
Post by: High Altitude on September 18, 2013, 11:29:12 PM
Whoa!  That is one scary impressive wheel of parm!  You will have lots of friends after your gift-giving next year :-).

I made 3 little parms early this year, and the first one with sharp lipase.  I loved the taste, so don't think you'll need to worry about your lesser amount of lipase (just hope it will be enough).  Keep in mind that my husband thinks my tastebuds are non-existent the way I adore hot/spicy things.

I let my parms age out for 3 months before coating with olive oil.  You may want to reconsider oiling your beast too soon, despite the minor cracks.  My first one had a bunch of cracks very early on (during initial drying phase), but they never got worse while aging (before oiling).

Now, please consider making a 12 pound brie...and then send me half  ;D!!

Great job...a cheese to your efforts!