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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => INGREDIENTS - Milk Types, Formats, & Pre-Cheese Making Processing => Topic started by: tal_d1 on November 24, 2012, 09:28:31 AM

Title: Raw milk safety
Post by: tal_d1 on November 24, 2012, 09:28:31 AM
I start using raw mik and i am quite concern about safety.
My milk source is good and i am keeping cleaning rules.
I will use the raw milk for semi firm/firm cheese only. (gouda, swiss, romano, tomme...).
I read that 60 days aging in not enough to kill all bad bacteria so my
question is: wil longer againg time, like 90 days will make the
cheese totaly safe ?
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: hoeklijn on November 24, 2012, 10:19:16 AM
Here in The Netherlands it's easy to buy raw cow and goat milk. I make all kinds of cheese with raw milk and the only precaution that I take is to warn women who are eating my cheese that cheeses from raw milk that are younger than 60 days might be dangerous to pregnant women.
Besided of course the normal cleansing of all equipment I use and the area where I make my cheese...
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: steffb503 on November 24, 2012, 11:43:13 AM
Here in NY 60 is the requirement for raw cheese.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Tomer1 on November 24, 2012, 01:45:27 PM
60 days is a rule of thumb, only way to garantee saftely is have the milk and cheeses analyzed which is obviously not cost feasable for a non commerical dairy\your avarage home cheesemaker.
So in essence, we're risking it and managing the risks to reduce possibility of sickness. (sourcing clean milk from healthy animals, using proper cheesemaking techniques like quick acidification using cultures which reduces food available for spoilage growth, making the cheese quickly after milking or rapidly cooling it for storage)
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: botanist on November 26, 2012, 09:11:16 PM
In both Canada and the US, raw milk cheese must be aged for a minimum of 60 days, which allows all pathogenic bacteria to be killed--but does not affect enterotoxins from some of those pathogens.  It is true that raw milk cheeses consumed younger than that, produced with strict sanitation, are found all over the world and, for the most part, have not been a concern--and most cheese experts insist that raw milk is essential for maximum flavor.  That being said, raw milk safety is a major concern for those who are professionally associated with its production (as in the animal health and science field, dairy science) and handling.  Pasteurization is the ONLY means to ensure milk (and cheese younger than 60 days) safety.

Although raw milk cheese safety is a country-wide legal issue, raw milk sales are managed by the individual States in the US, each having its own policy.  Here in California, we have had recent recalls of raw milk from large dairies due to serious bacterial contaminants found in marketed milk--and they have also occurred in other states too.  I don't want to get into the 'politics' of drinking raw milk as people who do so routinely tend to feel as strongly about the practice as those who advocate pasteurization.  I am married to a retired professor of ruminant physiology who believes Louis Pasteur to be the  single person who most affected modern human health, as pasteurization has probably saved more lives than any other health advance.  I own dairy goats and pasteurize all milk, whether used for drinking or cheese making.  And I know how careful I am with milking sanitation, yet also know the risks of not pasteurizing.

Good information on pathogens in milk/cheese can be found at the University of Guelph website at
http://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/cheese-making-technology/section-c-milk/raw-milk-quality/pathogenic-bacteria (http://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/cheese-making-technology/section-c-milk/raw-milk-quality/pathogenic-bacteria)

I had a surgery nurse a couple of years ago who contracted Brucellosis from blood spatter when doing routine blood work on a university student from Mexico who had eaten raw milk cheese and came back from his school break very sick.  The nurse became CDC (Centers for Disease Control) Brucellosis case #67.

Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: linuxboy on November 26, 2012, 09:26:29 PM
Quote
which allows all pathogenic bacteria to be killed--but does not affect enterotoxins from some of those pathogens.
Modern studies have shown this to be false. Risk vector from load, aging conditions, microbiological ecosystem, and cheese profile all affect rate of lysis and pathogenic viability. Viable pathogens have been recovered from cheese is that is 12+ months old without post-contamination.

Quote
Pasteurization is the ONLY means to ensure milk (and cheese younger than 60 days) safety.
Again, legal pasteurization is one tool. Sporification, thermoduric encapsulation, and other mechanisms that bacteria use make 5-log reduction a virtual certainty, but not an absolute one. There are also many other tools available to cheesemakers and from a public health policy perspective, such as thermization, targeted phage use, elevated temperature aging, bacteriocin-producing bacterial adjuncts, rind flora ecologies with associated pathogen targetting, etc.

The bacterial world is much more complex than Pasteur made it out to be.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on November 26, 2012, 09:29:23 PM
  Here in California, we have had recent recalls of raw milk from large dairies due to serious bacterial contaminants found in marketed milk--and they have also occurred in other states too.

The basic problem with our food system....whether it's raw milk, hamburger, raw vegetables stuff gets out without apparent testing and then gets recalled. Why wouldn't there be a system in place to test prior to distribution? We seem to put the horse behind the cart altogether too often.

To use recalls of raw milk as a reason (or case #67) to ban raw milk sales, you would also have to advocate the ban of raw beef, vegetables etc etc. It would be better to institute some form of testing process or certification process that is in place prior to distribution.

Organic vegetables are much more likely (due to the use of "alternate" fertilizers) to contain pathogens, and yet the use of chemicals is not preferable for long term maintenance of the soil, not to mention potential side effects of consumption.

Having grown an organic garden for years, I can attest to both the benefits as well as the problems associated with "going organic". Much easier for the small gardener to implement as opposed to a larger farm.

Just an FYI...I personally do not drink raw milk (nor do I drink pasteurized milk), but I do think that those who want to (or to make cheese with it  :) ) should have access. I am also horrified by the growing use of ultra-pasteurization by the dairy industry.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on November 26, 2012, 09:31:53 PM


Quote
Pasteurization is the ONLY means to ensure milk (and cheese younger than 60 days) safety.

Actually...it doesn't ensure, merely enhances, otherwise pasteurized milk wouldn't occasionally be subject to recall.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Tobiasrer on November 26, 2012, 09:38:22 PM
If you are content in the milk and would consume it as milk, then as cheese I am not sure why you worry. Even pasteurized milk can harbour bacteria and then there is still the issue of contamination during your process or storage of the cheese.
The only 100% way to be safe from bad milk is NO milk!

In teh restraunt I managed for a number years here in Canada (where Raw milk is absolutley NOT allowed) we had an issue for several months where the milk was sour/chunky when we opened it from the wholesaler! so even that was being comprimised! All you can do is monitor your source and build confidence in it and in your technique and process.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on November 26, 2012, 09:45:40 PM
I look at it this way:

If you let raw milk sit out, you get cheese
If you let pasteurized milk sit out, it turns sour
If you let ultra-pasteurized milk sit out, it turns putrid.

If I were going to drink milk, I would drink raw milk if I had a convenient supply....otherwise it would be pasteurized and never U/P.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Al Lewis on November 26, 2012, 10:13:21 PM
I have found a local supplier for raw milk which I use for all of my cheese that I'm going to age for more than 60 days.  Normally that means months more.  Anything 60 days and under and I use store bought pastuerized milk.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: botanist on November 26, 2012, 10:35:18 PM
Quote
which allows all pathogenic bacteria to be killed--but does not affect enterotoxins from some of those pathogens.

Modern studies have shown this to be false. Risk vector from load, aging conditions, microbiological ecosystem, and cheese profile all affect rate of lysis and pathogenic viability. Viable pathogens have been recovered from cheese is that is 12+ months old without post-contamination.

Quote
Pasteurization is the ONLY means to ensure milk (and cheese younger than 60 days) safety.

Again, legal pasteurization is one tool. Sporification, thermoduric encapsulation, and other mechanisms that bacteria use make 5-log reduction a virtual certainty, but not an absolute one. There are also many other tools available to cheesemakers and from a public health policy perspective, such as thermization, targeted phage use, elevated temperature aging, bacteriocin-producing bacterial adjuncts, rind flora ecologies with associated pathogen targetting, etc.

The bacterial world is much more complex than Pasteur made it out to be.


Thanks for the correction!  Your post lead me to follow up and this is a very good synopsis, although not current as of 'now'.  http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/02/publishers-platform-60-day-rule-the-facts/ (http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/02/publishers-platform-60-day-rule-the-facts/)

It is true that other treatments than heat pasteurization are available, although they cannot all be implemented by all producers, especially those small-time, at-home producers like us, or folks living out in rural areas worldwide.  I practice the 'best' sanitation I can at home with my goats, yet wouldn't drink their milk raw and do all I can to ensure safe handling post-milking, including using commercial food surface sanitizer, gloves, etc.  All the more reason to be unsure of anyone else's practices, even those whose livelihoods depend on it, because my life (and those I cook for) depend on it.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on November 26, 2012, 10:38:16 PM
There have been 2 recalls in just the past 90 days at a very established cheese company here in the USA. This involved several styles of raw milk cheeses, all aged over 60 days, contaminated with Listeria. Nobody has become ill or died or this would be national news. The cheeses were recalled from 6 or 7 states and the Whole Foods chain. I have known this cheesemaker for many years, and I cannot identify them or discuss this any further. I only bring this up as a learning experience that we all should study.

In many ways, this proves that the 60 day rule is not an absolute and as LB points out, there are many variables for survival of pathogens. And as he also points out, there are other tools and techniques for fighting Listeria and other pathogens. For example, Danisco has a series of "protective cultures" that they call HoldBac

HOLDBAC Protective Cultures are freeze-dried starter cultures that provide natural biological, efficient spoilage and pathogen protection in fermented dairy products. They have a natural ability to produce Nicin and inhibit specific contamination flora, such as visible mold, yeasts, Clostridia and Listeria (depending on product).
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: botanist on November 26, 2012, 11:19:28 PM
Thanks, Sailor.  A number of bacteriophages are either being tested or in commercial production for various food uses.  I use Natamax on cheeses that are not mold-ripened externally, prior to 'bagging' them.  Every little bit helps!
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on November 27, 2012, 03:04:43 PM
Natamax is good for molds and yeasts, but Danisco does not suggest it for Listeria or coliforms. Yes, there are several interesting phage products either on the market or in development. Most are for the meat market where the majority of Listeria problems occur. The bio-needs are different for dairy products.

It's interesting that Natamax has such a stinky, sulfur smell, but doesn't seem to contribute to any flavor defects.

Here is a link: http://www.danisco.com/product-range/antimicrobials/natamaxr/ (http://)
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: tal_d1 on December 01, 2012, 08:37:39 AM
Thanks for all the reply's guys but i feel confuse and do not know if i should use
this milk. I have a very good source that sell his milk daily to the biggest dairy in Israel and
if his milk will be found by the dairy as unclean he will not get money for this milk and he will
pay big forfeit. From my side i am doing my best to keep everything clean. But the good source of milk
and my cleaning will not assure that the cheese will be safe for eating.
On the other hand i never heard about someone how died from milk product or from
other food that might contain Listeria.
In Israel the Ministry of Health took over 10,000 samples of food from the biggest markets
and found Listeria at 12.5% of the samples. Listeria  found at 27% of the chicken products, 15% at the fish, 9% at
salads, 7% at beef and 2% at milk products.
So from this test i understand that Listeria is found in my every day food! but i never heard at the
news that something happened to someone.
In France, Raw milk is standard and also in other parts of Europe and i do not believe that all those
cheese made by small cheese makers at home farms in France are free of Listeria.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 01, 2012, 08:53:16 AM
Hi Tal

This is not a simple topic.

The milk you buy may, or may not, contain anything harmful. It is hard to tell.
Here we have to buy milk from shops that is pasteurised and homogenised and generally safe.

Without testing your milk supplies we cannot say if it is safe to use.

Buy the best quality milk you can and see how it goes.

Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Tomer1 on December 01, 2012, 02:01:17 PM
Quote
if his milk will be found by the dairy as unclean he will not get money for this milk and he will
pay big forfeit
Tal, this is not how modern mass production system work.  the milk doesnt need to be "clean" enough to be used for raw milk use or cheese production but only "clean enough" - hasnt started naturally acidify dou to poor storage.
even "bad milk" can be made into safe to drink milk  or gvina levana\cottege. 
so the possibility of not getting paid because of milk quality is very unlikely. he needs to accidently dump some sanitizer into his milk or something to have it label bad. or maybe have sick animals producing milk with elevated levels of mastitis.

By the time this milk turns into cheese it can be heat treated two or even three times to ensure its "dead" depending on time scedual and storage. (it can be heat treated on recieving the milk and just before its made into cheese in closed vats)


I Thermize in case of soft ripened cheeses and take my chances, I use raw for prolonged aged cooked cheeses.
I have no idea how good or bad the milk is.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: tal_d1 on December 01, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
Hi Tomer, i use to work at cowshed for years so i know how its work. maybe the
word "clean" is not the right one.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: steffb503 on December 01, 2012, 05:54:08 PM
Sounds like you have doubts, Heat treat first.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: tal_d1 on December 02, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
This is not the point. The point is that it seems that many of the non milk
product that we are buying from the supermarket contains Listeria.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on December 02, 2012, 01:50:39 PM
Actually, Listeria is present in something like 10% of humans, naturally occurring.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: klschnepp on December 05, 2012, 10:08:14 AM
Tal-  as you can see, this is a hot topic.  As you have noticed, opinions around this often varies by region.  In the UK, raw milk is legal and easy to obtain and many of us here believe that it is a great choice for cheese making.

No milk is or will ever be 100% "safe" and I might recommend reading up a bit more on the relevant issues and various pathogens so you can make the right choice for you since, as someone else said, there is no simple answer to "safe" or "not safe".   I don't know how much you plan to produce (because if it is not much, this would be a bit cheeky) but one thing that might help is asking your farmer about his or her testing protocols.  IMHO, understanding herd management is the right place to look if you are sourcing directly from the farm.   


 
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: tal_d1 on December 13, 2012, 07:15:25 AM
I decided not to take a risk and to pasteurize the milk although i will
make with it long age cheese only. (6 months and more).
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: botanist on December 14, 2012, 09:37:55 PM
I decided not to take a risk and to pasteurize the milk although i will
make with it long age cheese only. (6 months and more).

Perhaps, tal_d1, you could contact an expert who is now at my university, but used to oversee commercial cheese production in Israel.  He is Dr. Moshe Rosenberg http://www.foodscience.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/mrosenberg (http://www.foodscience.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/mrosenberg)
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: linuxboy on December 14, 2012, 10:04:36 PM
Lol, Moshe will tell you to treat the milk :). There's no reason to him to have unpasteurized anything. We all have our biases :)
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on December 14, 2012, 10:09:21 PM
Unless you treat the milk with a gentle process (145F for 30 min), there is little point in buying the milk raw....at least at the price I pay.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Tomer1 on December 14, 2012, 11:54:04 PM
Quote
Unless you treat the milk with a gentle process (145F for 30 min), there is little point in buying the milk raw....at least at the price I pay.
Unlike in canada\US, we dont pay "extra" for raw milk as its not regulated what so every by the state. (Not sure if its even suppose to be available to the public, its a sort of a loop hole as farmers move most of their milk to one of the 3 major co-ops)
We accually buy it for much cheaper (almost half the price of standart 72c heat treated milk sold in supermarkets packaged in either plastic jugs or bags)  directly from farmer.  I pay about  70c\liter.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: bbracken677 on December 15, 2012, 01:09:56 AM
hah! thats what I pay for h/p milk...and then 3 times that for raw! Holy cow lol
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Al Lewis on December 15, 2012, 01:15:57 AM
Yeah, my raw milk is $7.00 a gallon.  Store bought is $2.50.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: botanist on December 15, 2012, 06:14:58 AM
Unless you treat the milk with a gentle process (145F for 30 min), there is little point in buying the milk raw....at least at the price I pay.
That is the 'low temp' method of pasteurization; the 'high temp' method is 15 sec at 165F
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Mighty Mouse on December 16, 2012, 02:20:31 AM
Yeah, my raw milk is $7.00 a gallon.  Store bought is $2.50.

Wow! $2.50 a gallon!? Milk here where I live is close to $4.00 a gallon- and we are the number one diary producing state in the nation! Sometimes it drops down closer to $3.00 but it is usually about $3.70. Creamline milk at Trader Joes is about $3.50 per half gallon (That is what I usually get for cheesemaking). Last time I looked into getting raw milk for cheese making was about 4 or 5 years ago. Local dairies wanted around $8 or $9 a gallon as I recall. I vaguely remember it being more at the health food store (Raw milk is legal and not heavily regulated in CA by the way).
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: Tomer1 on December 16, 2012, 05:42:05 PM
Do consider that the israeli p-holstein breed are some of the highest yeilding cows globally producing about 30(?) L\day (but unfortunatlly produce milk that it is only 2.8-3% fat on avarage) so quality suffers to keep yeild high and make a profit.
Also most of the local dairy market is based on fairly low fat products (high moisture lactic cheeses, cottege cheese,low fat yogurt,flavored sweet custurds for kids,very little butter and cream) so I suppose they are well "designed" to supply this market.
Title: Re: Raw milk safety
Post by: margaretsmall on December 16, 2012, 08:21:29 PM
International travellers comment on the high price of food in Australia and if these milk prices are typical they are right. A year or so ago the two major supermarkets started a price war on milk which now sells (under their own brand) for $1 per litre, which is about $4 per gallon. All the other brand names are considerably more. Its all P/H of course. The cheapest unhomogenised milk I can buy is $7.50 for 4 litres. The alternative is organic milk which starts at $2.75 per litre. I'm paying $3 per litre for raw goats milk (don't tell anyone, its illegal to sell). In the supermarket pasteurised goats milk if $4.75 per litre. The supermarkets have come into a great deal of criticism for forcing the price down, because of the effect on the profitability of dairy farms, but of course we all still buy it.
Margaret