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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Al Lewis on November 29, 2012, 09:16:31 PM

Title: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on November 29, 2012, 09:16:31 PM
Decided I really had to do a Swiss as it's one of my all time favorite cheeses.  Here's the recipe I used.  I doubled the original recipe on everything but the propionic shermaii.  Courtesy of "Cultures for Health".

Ingredients:

4 gallons Fresh Milk
1 teaspoon Propionic Shermanii Culture, dissolved in ½ cup milk
1/4 teaspoon Direct-Set Thermophilic Culture
¼ Vegetable Rennet Tablet, dissolved in ½ cup cool water
2.25 pounds Sea Salt (non-iodized) or Cheese Salt
1 gallon Water

Instructions:

Heat your milk to 87°F.   Add  the thermophilic culture and stir well.  Add Propionic shermanii culture and stir for at least 1 minute.  Cover and allow to ferment for 15 minutes.

Check temperature and make sure milk is no warmer than 90°F.  Stir to homogenize the milk, and slowly fold in the diluted rennet.  Using an up-and-down motion with your spoon will ensure that the rennet works its way through all the milk, so you can get the highest possible yield.

Allow the cheese to set for 30-45 minutes at 90°F, or until the whey begins to separate from the curd.  You should see a layer of mostly clear whey floating on top of the curd, and the curd should be pulling away from the sides of your pot.

Using a long knife, cut the curds into 1/4 inch cubes.

Take your whisk and stir the curd, slicing it into small pieces.  The pieces should all be roughly the same size.

Keep the curds at 90°F and stir with your wooden spoon, working out the whey, for 35 minutes.

Over the next 25 minutes, slowly heat the curds to 120°F, stirring frequently with your wooden spoon.  As you stir, the curds will shrink.  Keep the curds at 120°F for 30 minutes.  The curds should be small, and if you bite one it should squeak in your teeth.  A handful of curds, squeezed into a ball, should fall apart in your hands.
Pour the curds into a press lined with cheesecloth.  Work quickly; you do not want your curds to cool.  Press at 10 pounds of pressure for 15 minutes.

Using a fresh piece of cheesecloth, flip the cheese and press, again, at 15 pounds of pressure for 30 minutes.

Repeat this process again, at 15 pounds of pressure for 2 hours, rinsing your cheesecloth in clean, cool water each time and hanging to dry.

Finally, press at 20 pounds of pressure for 12 hours, or overnight.

Mix two pounds of sea salt with 1 gallon of cold water to make a brine.  Place the cheese in the brine and let it soak for 24 hours.

Take the cheese out of the brine and age at 55-60°F for one week.  Flip and wipe daily with a damp cheesecloth dipped in salt water. 

Age the cheese in the kitchen (or another warm room) for 2-3 weeks.  Flip and wipe daily with a damp cheesecloth dipped in salt water.  The cheese should swell and will smell “Swiss-ey”. 

Place the cheese back in your aging fridge (or cheese cave) for 12 weeks or more (click here for practical methods for aging cheese).  Flip once or twice a week and remove mold with a cheesecloth dipped in salt water.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on November 29, 2012, 09:21:22 PM
Okay, so I'm up to the point where I have to take the cheese out of the cave so the Propionic Shermanii can create the bubbles necessary for the holes.  Here is a picture of the cheese just out of the cave.  It is currently 2 inches high.  I will post future pictures of the swelling as it occurs.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on November 29, 2012, 09:52:24 PM
AL, I;m not sure but the mechanical holes are not a plus .
I do hope it swells more than the one I am babying
Aint these fun? ;)
How strong of brine are you using and for how long. 
are you going to use a wine/ salt brine as a wash?
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on November 29, 2012, 10:40:31 PM
I used the brine wipe for the week it was in the cave, daily, but expect it will not need it at 70F as I expect to experience the same conditions I did with the Jarlsberg.  The other side is very smooth as the depressions on this side were caused by the cheese cloth.  Here's a shot of the smooth side when it was in the brine.  In addition, I did the first two 15 minute pressings submerged under the 120 degree whey so I suspect the openings on the sides are superficial and do not extend into the interior of the cheese. The brine consisted of 1 gallon of water, 2.25 pounds of salt, 1 tablespoon of white vinegar, and 1 tablespoon of CaCl and it remained in the brine for 24 hours.  Hoping this one blows up like a ballon.  ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 09:02:14 AM
Oh yes that looks much smoother :)
Quote
1 teaspoon Propionic Shermanii Culture, dissolved in ½ cup milk

I'm sayin, with that much PS it should blow UP :o
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on November 30, 2012, 09:11:22 AM
That's the plan.  >:D  After reading about everyone being dissappointed in how much their Swiss and Jarlsberg were swelling I decided to just double the recipe and stick with the teaspoon of of propionic shermaii.  Seemed like plenty for 4 gallons of milk but would be a little excessive for 2.  Anyway, I have great expectations for this cheese.  We'll see what happens.  :o 
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on November 30, 2012, 10:48:44 AM
That's the plan.  >:D  After reading about everyone being dissappointed in how much their Swiss and Jarlsberg were swelling I decided to just double the recipe and stick with the teaspoon of of propionic shermaii.  Seemed like plenty for 4 gallons of milk but would be a little excessive for 2.  Anyway, I have great expectations for this cheese.  We'll see what happens.  :o

lol, I can't wait to find out how that goes. If the cheese explodes or something, I want to see pictures! Very cool make! I can't wait to hear how it turns out!
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on November 30, 2012, 05:55:10 PM
A couple of observations...

One teaspoon of PS for 4 gallons milk sounds like a Ricki Carroll recipe. I hope it doesn't prove to have too much propionic acid. Very distinct flavor.

The other point is the level of salt in your brine and the time you kept it in the brine. PS doesn't like too much salt. Swiss is normally lower in salt than other cheese styles.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on November 30, 2012, 06:37:38 PM
Well we'll have to wait and see how it turns out now as it's all done bar the swelling. LOL ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 01, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
Just checking on this cheese tonight and it smells incredible.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 04, 2012, 08:38:01 PM
Well still no swelling whatsoever.  Seems like I should have noticed something but notta.   :-\
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: bbracken677 on December 04, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
Does it smell swissy?
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 04, 2012, 08:49:27 PM
Don't know about Swissy but it does smell incredibly good.  I thought that with the amount of p shermanii I put in it it would be a ball by now. LOL
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 05, 2012, 04:36:25 AM
If there are mechanical holes inside as well, then it may just be filling those spaces up and it doesn't need to swell.  (At least that's my hopeful theory on a baby Swiss that I messed up on the press - it's got another few weeks to age before I find out.)  So that may be part of it.  The other part of it is that, ummmm, it's only been a few days at warm there, guy - give it time!   ^-^
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 06, 2012, 07:32:10 PM
Okay, I noticed tonight that the edges on the side that was up last night had rounded out and the top was starting to crown.  I have coated it with olive oil and turned it and re-dressed it with a light coat again tonight. ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 07, 2012, 11:19:56 PM
Top is still crowning every time I flip it, which is daily.  Hopefully the sides will start bulging also.  Looking good.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 08, 2012, 03:55:10 AM
Pics?
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 08, 2012, 11:00:46 AM
Here you go.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 08, 2012, 11:48:58 AM
That is coming along nicely.  ;)
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 08, 2012, 11:52:15 AM
I was rather concerned about the swelling as the Jarlsberg, behind it, didn't swell as much as expected but both seem to be coming along nicely now.  Now I'll know what to expect the next time I make some. ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on December 08, 2012, 03:24:07 PM
I'm thinking I will add a little more PS in my next Swiss make to get more swelling going on.
 this one is looking good Al ^-^
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 08, 2012, 03:56:10 PM
Thanks buddy. Yeah, I think a teaspoon for 4 gallons of milk might be the ticket.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 11, 2012, 09:29:05 PM
Well the crowning is getting better, and higher.  Even my Jarlsberg is swelling in its wax. ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 12, 2012, 04:42:02 AM
Well the crowning is getting better, and higher.  Even my Jarlsberg is swelling in its wax. ;D
See?  Tole ya!   :)

(Note how I refrained from another "Patience, Grasshopper" joke?)

(Oops. )
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on December 12, 2012, 09:05:21 AM
(Note how I refrained from another "Patience, Grasshopper" joke?)

(Oops. )
<Character waits off to the side...arms folded, toe tapping> :-\

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 12, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
Never doubted you for a minumte Mary. LOL ::)
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on December 12, 2012, 09:28:29 AM
They both look great Al :P
I going to wash my Emmentaler one last time today and vacuum bag it tomorrow :-\
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 12, 2012, 11:38:36 AM
I wonder if the vacumn will help the internal gases expand.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 13, 2012, 04:46:56 AM
<Character waits off to the side...arms folded, toe tapping> :-\
Cool, Boofer, you never told us you're a tap dancer, too!  So many talents!   ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on December 13, 2012, 08:26:38 AM
...while I'm stirring! Ah-cha! 8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: george (MaryJ) on December 14, 2012, 05:50:07 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 14, 2012, 05:53:20 PM
Swiss is doing great.  Decided to re-wax my Jarlsberg tonight prior to putting it back into the cave to age.  Smells awesome!!!
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 15, 2012, 08:02:44 PM
Looking good! Can't wait to hear about that Jarlsberg.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 16, 2012, 08:31:24 PM
I'll be sure and post some pics and info when I cut it.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 17, 2012, 04:02:17 PM
Well this is the last week for the Swiss to be out of the cave for swelling and it looks as though it's doing quite well, although the sides aren't swelling much the top and bottom are crowning very nicely. 
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 20, 2012, 08:29:41 PM
Well the Swiss is back in the cave to age now.  Have good swelling top and bottom.  I may wax it tomorrow.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on December 20, 2012, 09:46:20 PM
Well the Swiss is back in the cave to age now.  Have good swelling top and bottom.  I may wax it tomorrow.

Just a suggestion
why not wash it with a wine salt water brine and let it do it's thing
my Swiss (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) has no mold
I think I need  to moisten it more to keep it flexible yet at the moment it smells heavenly  ^-^
Alp has so many excellent post's  on this.
I used the same wash on my Caerphilly (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10510.0.html) and my wife loves the rind and I only washed it twice to keep the mold away ^-^
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 21, 2012, 12:34:18 AM
I did several saltwater/vinegar washes on this and then coated it with olive oil.  I was reading Alps post on washing and he says they used a salt rub on swiss.  I think I'll wait and see how the rind holds up in the cave and try that wine wash should a mold problem occur.  Off for 12 days now so I should get a lot of opportunity to make some of the cheeses I want.  Thanks for the suggestion! ;D
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on December 21, 2012, 01:01:10 AM
I'd second the vote for developing a natural rind on your Swiss rather than waxing it.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 21, 2012, 02:46:22 AM
Well the Swiss is back in the cave to age now.  Have good swelling top and bottom.  I may wax it tomorrow.
Nice swelling! How long now to the sampling?
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 21, 2012, 09:32:39 AM
I'd second the vote for developing a natural rind on your Swiss rather than waxing it.

-Boofer-

It actually has a very nice rind now.  I just have to keep on it to make sure no molds develop.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on December 21, 2012, 09:33:47 AM
Well the Swiss is back in the cave to age now.  Have good swelling top and bottom.  I may wax it tomorrow.
Nice swelling! How long now to the sampling?

Recipe says at least 12 weeks.  I'm thinking I may try it around April to celebrate spring. ^-^
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on January 05, 2013, 11:59:19 AM
Getting ready to wax the swiss and the double gloucester today.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on January 05, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
All done.  I usually put two to three coats on and then check it in a few days to see if it is hard against the surface or spongy.  If it feels spongy I take it off and do it again.  A little brushed on wax holds the labels nicely.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on January 06, 2013, 12:57:08 PM
Nicely tucked away.  Getting full on this shelf.  Seems my cave will hold a lot more cheese if I wax it or bag it. LOL  23 pounds on this shelf.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 12, 2013, 07:05:59 PM
Opened my Jarlsberg tonight.  Not happy with the holes but the taste is spot on.  Just a tiny bit grainy though.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 12, 2013, 07:39:15 PM
Well without knowing any more, I would guess the cheese to be slightly over acidified. Maybe don't keep it warm as long in the press to prevent this.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 12, 2013, 07:42:49 PM
Thanks Alp.  It was a first try so I'm fairly happy with the results.  We will have extensive talks before I try again. LOL  The Ementaler comes out of the wax next. :o
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on February 13, 2013, 09:14:33 AM
Wow, two and a half months seems a little short on aging!

IMHO, I would expect an Emmentaler to go at least six and maybe twelve months. Also curious about the level of PS, time in the warm period, finally... salt level and time in brine. Was this one that had a teaspoon of PS in four gallons milk (re: Ricki Carroll)?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 13, 2013, 09:34:21 AM
Followed Rikki Carroll's recipe from her site Boofer.  http://www.cheesemaking.com/Jarlsburg.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/Jarlsburg.html)
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on February 13, 2013, 11:12:36 AM
Opened my Jarlsberg tonight.  Not happy with the holes but the taste is spot on.  Just a tiny bit grainy though.
At least you got holes Al ;D I wonder if the graininess would go away with more ageing :-\
How old is your Emmentaler? mine is slightly over 14 weeks and am getting antsy :o
 
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 13, 2013, 11:31:48 AM
I believe I made these a day apart.  The Jarlsberg calls for 3-4 months but I believe the emmentaler called for longer aging.  Alp says the graininess is caused by a slight acidity problem.  I re-waxed half of this cheese and will let it age longer.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 19, 2013, 09:28:50 PM
Well I finally broke down and opened my emmentaler tonight because, well, I needed some emmentaler.  Bottom line is it's not emmentaler.  Tastes good but nothing like the emmentaler I'm use to buying from the store.  Not even close to that distinct taste. Texture is right, salt is right, taste is way off.  Holes are virtually non-existent. No idea what happened but I would definitely like some advice, read as recipe, for a 6 gallon emmentaler from Alp, if he would be so kind.  Emmentaler is one of the main reasons I wanted to learn to make cheese.  :( 
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: mbox on February 20, 2013, 01:24:58 AM
Hi Al ,Sorry to hear and i am facing a similar issue...it ain't swelling...it is now almost 3 weeks in the "warm" area for swelling but nothing does happen...it smells great though . I used the recipe from 200 recipes and funnily my last attempt of swiss came right . with holes (ok not huge holes but they were ok) . So after 3 weeks what should i do...back in the cooler cave for aging or wait longer in the warm area for the swelling to come?

I guess my emmenthal without holes would be a Gruyere ?  :o

Thanks for your valued suggestions,

mbox
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Reino on February 20, 2013, 03:54:37 AM
Hi Al!

Sorry for your emmentahl. Could you tell me what are you doing to achieve this "no-hole" state. The reason me asking this is that I've been trying to make alpkäse with many failures along the way. No matter what I do, I have excellent swelling and holes appearing from left and right! :) Even without any PS. Have been reading the threads from alpkäserei and doing everything as he has adviced.

I'm using raw milk and since everything else has been taken care of, I'm suspecting there is some natural bacteria present in the milk. Which by itself is not bad, it doesn't give any bad taste or smell to cheese, just annoying when you're trying hard to achieve as few holes as possible.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Boofer on February 20, 2013, 07:58:25 AM
Hi Reino. You should really start your own thread to get the most effective responses to your predicament.

I would say that you could make sure that you aren't giving the cheese a Warm Phase and make sure that the salt level is adequate. PS does not work its eyes/holes magic if too much salt is around. Sounds like your milk has naturally-occurring Propionic shermanii.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Reino on February 20, 2013, 08:33:12 AM
Thanks Boofer, I'll do that.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: H-K-J on February 20, 2013, 11:23:04 AM
 :'( Dang Al what are we doin wrong? everything seems so right and then :P
The wait and anticipation, then, disappointment :(
I realy thought with the swelling you got that this would have eyes.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 20, 2013, 11:24:20 AM
Me too.  This thing doesn't even have a hint of the "swiss" flavor either.  We need to have a long talk with Alp.  I don't get it as the Jarlsberg tasted fine.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: mbox on February 20, 2013, 08:36:44 PM
Me too.  This thing doesn't even have a hint of the "swiss" flavor either.  We need to have a long talk with Alp.  I don't get it as the Jarlsberg tasted fine.

I made my third jarlsberg and  while the first one did not swell it was still good in taste and a bit like a tilsiter with emmenthal-ish taste. I have currently a worrying jarlsberg in the warm area for swelling...the reason what worries me was the fact that with heavy pressing it almost appeared to be swelling !! taken out from pressing it was looking bigger than before pressing and light like a sponge i do see it swells and i can't say that it really smells like emmenthal ( or jarlsberg), so i guess something like you guys have troubling you too  - i guess i will wait and see as its still early , but i am rather pessiimistic about this jarlsberg...

mbox
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 20, 2013, 09:30:02 PM
a true emementaler imade the right (traditional) way is difficult to master, especially with no first hand experience from a master
so dont be discouraged by failurs in the learning stage
my suspicion for these is over-acidification as i have said before. the acid will keep ps from growing. there are a few ways we can deal with this
shorten the brewing time bettween cutting the curd and warming the curd. this will result in less acid. shorten until it works, this may take a few tries. i have noticed many swiss cheese recipes omit this stage completely, which i dont endorse

do not press in warm whey after initial knit is achieved. i.e. only press in whey fro first 2 or at most 3 pressings (even our large alpkäse, for which acidification is no major issue, are uncovered after the 3rd oor 4th flip.

rif acid is indeed the problem, which makes sense, then shorting the time factor of any stage after the curd is cut will help
also increasing the cooking temp helps this, it kills off secondary acid bacteria but leaves the ps.
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on February 20, 2013, 09:35:20 PM
Thanks a million Alp. ;)
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: mbox on February 21, 2013, 01:03:52 AM
a true emementaler imade the right (traditional) way is difficult to master, especially with no first hand experience from a master
so dont be discouraged by failurs in the learning stage
my suspicion for these is over-acidification as i have said before. the acid will keep ps from growing. there are a few ways we can deal with this
shorten the brewing time bettween cutting the curd and warming the curd. this will result in less acid. shorten until it works, this may take a few tries. i have noticed many swiss cheese recipes omit this stage completely, which i dont endorse

do not press in warm whey after initial knit is achieved. i.e. only press in whey fro first 2 or at most 3 pressings (even our large alpkäse, for which acidification is no major issue, are uncovered after the 3rd oor 4th flip.

rif acid is indeed the problem, which makes sense, then shorting the time factor of any stage after the curd is cut will help
also increasing the cooking temp helps this, it kills off secondary acid bacteria but leaves the ps.

Gruezi Alpkaese, excellent info, herzlichen dank,

mbox
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Chaneygoats on September 28, 2017, 09:35:54 PM
Al I hope you see this I too have just attempted my first Swiss using the same recipe. However the curds did not combine during the pressing and I was curious if you had that issue and was why you did the first 2 15 minutes in the whey

Thanks Gene
Title: Re: My First Swiss
Post by: Al Lewis on September 30, 2017, 05:27:05 PM
No, mine combined just fine.  Just didn't get the holes but I didn't do the "warm period" properly on the first one.  When I did it the second time it came out great.