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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => Problems - Questions - Problems - Questions? => Topic started by: rattman on September 25, 2012, 05:02:02 PM
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Hi folks,
Have not been on for awhile as I had a full cheese cave and decided to let things age a bit before trying.
This was my first year trying cheese making. Generally it was a disaster... but I'm stubborn and determined to master this.
I'm not going to dive to deep into specifics... so if you feel more info is needed let me know.
So bottom line here are the cheeses I made:
Farmhouse Cheddar (found on you tube)
Cheshire - Rikki's Website
Traditional Swiss - Rikki's Book
Gouda - Rikki's book
Cantal - 200 Easy cheese Recepie Book
Lancashire - 200 cheese book
I purchased all molds, cultures, rennet, etc from Rikki.
The mono and thermo cultures were all the "individual serving" packets: Direct set C101 and C201 versions.
Bottom line is this.... I followed all directions from preparation to regular cleaning to humidity/temp in the cave (a new wine cooler). No cheese was touched until at least the 3 month mark and many I waited longer. I take that back... the Lancashire was supposed to be a short age cheese of less than 2 months I believe.
At the end of the day the only cheese that I used the Thermo culture on was the swiss and after 4 months it was amazing. After 6 months it was even better!
Unfortunately every other cheese tasted exactly the same. Nasty! My girlfriend and I have been trying to determine the best descriptive words for the taste. I thought there was some kind of overpowering almost amonia taste. She thought they just basically tasted rancid.
Note.... I had several discussions with folks including Sailor and decided to vacuum seal after about 60 + days of aging as opposed to wax. I know some folks have claimed that the vac sealing can impart a amonia taste but I let all cheeses sit for at least an hour after opening before trying...... Funny thing is though, I vac sealed the swiss too and it tasted delicious. No amonia or rancid taste at all.
So what the heck happened? The only common denominator is the mono culture. could it have been bad?
By the way for ALL cheeses I was sure not to use ultra pasteurized... but we don't have much access to raw milk around here in Chicago.
I have notes on each cheese, so if you need more detail regarding process just let me know and I will gladly provide more info.
It's gtg cooler out and I'm getting the bug to start another batch of cheeses.
Also... should I throw out all of the 1 year old cultures in my freezer and start fresh? Does anyone buy from the guy near Milwaukee? his name escapes me at the moment.
Thanks all in advance for your valuable advice!!
Regards,
John
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Tell us more about the maturation conditions. were they waxed? at what temp were they aged? Did they develope moisture\mold\yeast under the wax? did they taste sour?
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Thanks for the reply Tomer,
I think you missed a section of my post above. Per Sailor Con Queso's advice I used a foodsaver to seal all of my cheeses... including the swiss which was delicious.
The only other difference between the swiss and the monophilic cheeses was that the directions had the swiss sitting out in 70 degree temps for 2-3 weeks outside of the cheese cave after the first week. All other cheeses were in about 50 degrees and in large tubberware containers in the cheese cave with the lids cracked which got the humidity up well over 75%.
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A few of the cheeses did get moisture in the foodsaver bag so I cleaaned them off and let them dry for an hour and reseaaled them in fresh foodsaver bags.
Maybe I should ditch the foodsaver bags and go to wax this time.
Do you think the culture could have been bad?
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Hold the phone!!! I have a positive report for everyone!!!
I found the Cheshire from back on 12-19-11 in the back of my fridge. Totally forgot about it.
Just opened it and it's delicious!
One big difference with the Cheshire and the other meso cheeses that were a failure was actually an error that might have worked in my favor. The Cheshire was my first real attempt at cheddaring and at the end of the day I was unable to get the squares t knit totether in the mold. The two pound molded cheese looked like a bunch of pieces jammed together with litttle crevaces and cracks all around.
I threw up a post here and it was suggested that I immediately vacseal the cheese to keep mold from getting into those cracks. So I guess the cheese might have been more dry that the other cheeses when i sealed it. I never saw a drop of condensation in any of the cheshire bag throughout the months so maybe your theory on moisture and mold is accurate Tomer!
Wonder how I can overcompensate next time to get the moisture in the middle down without having the outside crack and get too hard? Do you think the idea of making "mini-caves- inside my wine cooler with tupperware is a bad idea? I thought I read about doing that here in the past. The reason for the mini-caves is that I was never able to get the humidity in the cave hich enough.
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"Monophilic", huh? Let's start there. You may be thinking of mesophilic.
One suggestion might be to focus on a single cheese style and gain some confidence in creating a consistently edible & tasty cheese product. You may read in the forum that there are some inconsistencies and inaccuracies with regard to Ricki's book and recipes. Her cultures may also be a question mark as to origin and freshness. The cheese with the crevices and separations between the curds indicates inadequate pressing.
I use minicaves all the time in my caves. The cheeses that are not sealed all have their devoted minicave space which keeps them at the optimum humidity and protected from their neighbors' cultures, which may be contagious (think: PR, PC, Geo, linens, mycodore).
I might recommend that you search on a particular cheese style on the forum that you want to make and read the different threads about what other folks have done, both good and bad. That's how a lot of us here learn to craft a special cheese.
-Boofer-
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To answer Tomer's question about them tasting "sour"..... I'd say "maybe". It's so hard to describe the taste/smell. Almost more ammonia or rancid. I'm sorry I don't have a better adjective.
Boofer... yeah you got me with the "monophilic". :) Sorry, it's been awhile since I made these cheeses and wanted to give them ample time to mature. I meant mesophilic. :)
I just had my brother over who tried the Cheshire and agreed it tasted great. He tried the Lancashire and had to brush his teeth twice to get the taste out. When I asked him if it tasted sour, an ammonia aftertaste, or rancid, he immediately said rancid.
So Boofer... I'd be fine just mastering a few cheeses if that is your recommendation. The Swiss turned out so I'll keep doing that one and maybe I'll try the Cheshire again. I don't think I'm going to color it orange this time. Just gonna leave it natural color.
My gut is telling me that tomer was onto something with regards to moisture playing a factor in the process. I know the middle of the cheese dries much more slowly than the outside which tends to get brittle and crack.... hence the mini caves. Maybe I'll just leave the lids open a little wider and let them dry for a good 90 days in the cave before I even consider foodsaver or wax.
Any additional comments would be greatly appreciated!!!
You people are so nice!!!! :) Thank you!
Regards,
John
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@ Boofer.......what do you mean that your cheeses can't contaminate each other because they are in mini-caves? Everyone seems to crack open the lid to control moisture and I can't imagine that spores aren't flowing around every time you open the cave door or move a box. Help me with my confusion here please....... :-\. I've seen this referred to often and just don't get it. basically, I imagine the room your cave is in has all those molds living in the atmosphere waiting for a conducive bio-terrain to invite them to stay and build community. Hopefully each cheese only appears inviting to the ones you want to colonize it (and have likely inoculated with) but that's a big hope! Please enlighten me...... 8)
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It's so hard to describe the taste/smell. Almost more ammonia or rancid. I'm sorry I don't have a better adjective.
I just had my brother over who tried the Cheshire and agreed it tasted great. He tried the Lancashire and had to brush his teeth twice to get the taste out. When I asked him if it tasted sour, an ammonia aftertaste, or rancid, he immediately said rancid.
Boy, I'm sure there are more than a few folks here wondering how/why your cheese is characterized as rancid. Did I miss it, or was there a mention of your milk quality, freshness, source? Perhaps something just wafted in on a breeze while you were in-progress?
@ Boofer.......what do you mean that your cheeses can't contaminate each other because they are in mini-caves? Everyone seems to crack open the lid to control moisture and I can't imagine that spores aren't flowing around every time you open the cave door or move a box. Help me with my confusion here please....... :-\. I've seen this referred to often and just don't get it. basically, I imagine the room your cave is in has all those molds living in the atmosphere waiting for a conducive bio-terrain to invite them to stay and build community. Hopefully each cheese only appears inviting to the ones you want to colonize it (and have likely inoculated with) but that's a big hope! Please enlighten me...... 8)
Perhaps I should rephrase....
Of course, given the optimal conditions, my cheeses could "cross-pollinate". Maybe I've just been fortunate ::). I've been vigilant (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9777.0.html) in checking my cheeses, always use gloves when handling the cheeses, wash the gloves I'm wearing to reduce/remove Geo or linens before handling another cheese, close the windows, and do not allow movement (by the wife or the Yorkie) in the kitchen when I'm tending my cheeses and especially during the cheese making.
The neat thing about the cheese tending is that, at a certain point in a young cheese's life, the rind protects it very well and there really isn't significant worry that a foreign incursion will corrupt the cheese.
Right now, a typical session communing with my young cheeses consists of taking them all out of their caves for a walk...into the kitchen. In the first pic, the Blueberry Delight at the bottom and the Tilsit at the top both get rubbed and inspected separately (washing the gloves between). Boofer's Fancy, the one with the nubbins and second from the bottom, gets washed with PLA & 3% brine. The two cheese wannabes in the smaller round containers are a quiet Port du Salut effort and they get soaked in Vouvray wine with a touch of salt (second pic).
Except for the Blueberry Delight, all of the others share a love of linens, either SR3 or from PLA. The Delight is just Geo and KL71. In another week or so, it will get sampled and possibly moved to the big fridge.
They all play well together because they have all had their rinds developed (except for the Fancy which I touch last).
-Boofer-
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Boofer... perhaps rancid is not the correct word... but 4 of the 6 cheeses that I made all had a very unpleasant taste. Only the Cheshire and the Swiss tasted as they were supposed to. I wish I could have you taste it and tell me what the corect adjective is to describe the taste.
All milk was purchased at the local grocery stores here in Illinois and all were pasturized... never ultra pasturized.
What typically contributes to an off/nasty aftertaste?
Obviously time is a huge factor, but no cheeses were tested until at least the 3 month mark, but most were tested between 4--6 months. So they all had a chance to develop.
Does anyone every have problems with cheeses with a strong unpleasant aftertaste that was not intended? Was moisture an issue or was it something else.. bad culture etc??
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@ Boofer
Thanks! That helps explain it to me. Always love looking at photos anyway..... Um, now all I need is someone to take over the cheese washing/brushing/fondling part of the cheesemaking job. I seem to get too busy at the milk producing end of the process (for example, barn chores, cleaning barn, animal care, pasture work, fencing, brush hogging fields, etc.) to have a lot left over for after-make care of cheeses. Maybe I should see if my honey is interested in that end of it. I think I'll ask him. He'd be a natural at it.......he's careful, meticulous and focused. And.....he's not so involved with the animal end of the system so it should be a natural fit. They say a sign of civilization is division of labor, right?
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Hmm...I thought a sign of civilization was fast food? Or wait...was it sliced bread? No! It's mass produced beer! No...wait...
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Hmm...I thought a sign of civilization was fast food? Or wait...was it sliced bread? No! It's mass produced beer! No...wait...
Um, not being a beer drinker I still can't imagine it's civilized to mass produce beer. It must be the sliced bread.
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@ Boofer
Thanks! That helps explain it to me. Always love looking at photos anyway..... Um, now all I need is someone to take over the cheese washing/brushing/fondling part of the cheesemaking job. I seem to get too busy at the milk producing end of the process (for example, barn chores, cleaning barn, animal care, pasture work, fencing, brush hogging fields, etc.) to have a lot left over for after-make care of cheeses. Maybe I should see if my honey is interested in that end of it. I think I'll ask him. He'd be a natural at it.......he's careful, meticulous and focused. And.....he's not so involved with the animal end of the system so it should be a natural fit. They say a sign of civilization is division of labor, right?
Yeesh, I got tired out just reading all of that! :P
I tip my hat (wait a minute while I put one on!) to you, Tiarella. A great many folks like you don't have the luxury of time that I seem to have to post. I would say getting your better half to assist would be a good thing (for you!).
-Boofer-
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I tip my hat (wait a minute while I put one on!) to you, Tiarella. A great many folks like you don't have the luxury of time that I seem to have to post. I would say getting your better half to assist would be a good thing (for you!).
-Boofer-
HEY!!!! Who says he's the better half???????? ::) Isn't that rather rude? ;) I like to think of different but equal, personally. :D
The payoff of to all the work is having lovely fresh raw milk that I can trust because I'm right there knowing the health of the herd, making all the decisions, health testing, etc. It's a pretty sweet place to be and hard to leave the barn many days. If you want to see some of it you can check out my little blog (not kept up to the minute with news at all but lots of glorious photos) here: http://foxmountainfarm.blogspot.com/ (http://foxmountainfarm.blogspot.com/) You'll see the sheep (no, I won't milk them), goats, food, gardens, barn, adorable baby goats, my "other" half holding cute goats, my livestock guardian dogs, etc. Do I love it all? Yup!
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HEY!!!! Who says he's the better half???????? ::) Isn't that rather rude? ;) I like to think of different but equal, personally. :D
Yow! Sorry, didn't mean to slight you. :-[ Just a figure of speech.
Yeah, sounds like you're livin' large. Good on ya'.
-Boofer-
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Rattman - You don't say how long you dried your cheeses before putting them in the mini-cave containers. If you didn't air dry them first, that could be a part of the issue. You say they all aged at least three months - which is about how long, tops, Lancashire should be aged. You also say that you vac sealed at two months. I vac seal most of my cheeses and make the decision regarding the timing of it based on the feel of the cheese.
My method for ageing cheese: Air dry on a mat at room temperature of about 75 degrees Fahrenheit, turning the cheese twice daily, until it is no longer wet. A good description I read once was that it should feel like a damp handshake. At that point, I put the cheese into a ripening container in my mini fridge, which is set to between 49-52 degrees Fahrenheit, variation due to room temperature variation. Some cheeses are meant to stay in the ripening container for their entire ageing process, others only for a short time. With Gouda, the recommended time is a week and I've noticed that it develops an almost-leathery thin rind during that time frame.
While in the ripening container, the cheese should be turned daily for a week, then weekly thereafter. Brush off any molds that develop and wipe out any accumulated moisture in the container. If it beads up on the sides, try leaving the container open just a crack for better air circulation.
For cheeses that have been removed from the ripening container, watch for signs of too rapid drying, such as getting a thicker rind or cracks. A light coating of butter or lard or a light brushing of olive oil will help slow down the drying. Continue to remove unwanted mold growth.
I make the decision to vac seal based on the status of the cheese. When I'm turning on a weekly basis and there's no difference in dampness between the bottom and top of the cheese, it is ready to be sealed. If I have cut into a cheese, I vac seal it, as long as it doesn't seem to be damp in the middle. With Lancashire, I cut it and vac seal at around the 2-3 month mark because it has hit its flavor peak by then. At that point, Lancashire gets stored in the regular refrigerator and the colder temps slow down the degradation of the flavor.
Cheeses that seep whey inside vac seal pacs are not ready to be vac sealed. Remove them ASAP and allow to dry at room temperature, then return to the ripening cave. Vac sealing while they have that much moisture in them results in sour, nasty flavored cheese.
Boofer gives great advice on hammering away at one variety of cheese until you get the make down and are understanding the why's and wherefore's of the process. It sounds boring, but in reality, it is the best way to learn cheesemaking without a lot of wasted product.
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MrsKK, Thank you! I was just wishing that one of the experienced cheeses would put all together a bunch of suggestions to help newbies make those decisions. Your post is very helpful.
I was envisioning a feature almost like keying out a plant to ID it. you know, it'd kind of be like this: Is this cheese a soft cheese? If yes, go on to question_______. If no, go to the hard cheese section at question ________. And in my vision there would be sections that could help a new person assess options when the cheese they pull out of their cave has mold on it; generic suggestions but also a list of the tradition for particular varieties such as, The following cheeses are oiled, see timing after each variety. Or, the following cheeses are traditionally allowed to develop a natural hard rind with a mix of opportunistic local molds. if you wish to avoid this here are some suggestions with notes about how each might impact flavor, texture and maturation timing.
Anyway...... I really appreciate how you put that info!
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I think I've read somewhere in the forum that you shouldn't vacuum-seal cheeses like Reblochon or maybe Camembert. I just wanted to throw in that I have successfully sealed wedges of Reblochon to prevent further loss of moisture once they've matured. That makes it easier to pull out a precut portion of soft-ripened cheese. Yum!
-Boofer-
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MrsKK, Thank you! I was just wishing that one of the experienced cheeses would put all together a bunch of suggestions to help newbies make those decisions. Your post is very helpful.
I was envisioning a feature almost like keying out a plant to ID it. you know, it'd kind of be like this: Is this cheese a soft cheese? If yes, go on to question_______. If no, go to the hard cheese section at question ________. And in my vision there would be sections that could help a new person assess options when the cheese they pull out of their cave has mold on it; generic suggestions but also a list of the tradition for particular varieties such as, The following cheeses are oiled, see timing after each variety. Or, the following cheeses are traditionally allowed to develop a natural hard rind with a mix of opportunistic local molds. if you wish to avoid this here are some suggestions with notes about how each might impact flavor, texture and maturation timing.
Anyway...... I really appreciate how you put that info!
Yeah, it would be nice, but there are so many varieties of cheese and so many variables that I think it would be a massive task and could probably never cover all of the bases.
Just keep asking questions, we're a pretty helpful group.
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You all are an EXTREMELY helpful group! Maybe someday during some blizzards I'll try to glean a bunch of that info and put it together into some form that people can add to and/or edit for correctness and it can be posted somewhere. I appreciate the sprouted fodder leads you posted on that other thread. I've been reading through those.
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I'm sorry you've had such a terrible time getting started in cheesemaking. I'm new to it myself, but have had some success and little failure. I think I've been lucky. (knocking on wood as I type) I did have one cheese with a bad aftertaste, and I think it was from too much rennet. I've had a few instances where the curd was too dry. Are you taking detailed notes when you make a cheese? I'm using the flocculation method and that has allowed me to see that my curd sets up too quickly. As a result, I have slowly lowered both cultures and rennet in effort to achieve a normal set time. As I do this, things are improving with each make. And, as some have suggested, I am now focused on one type of cheese until I get it the way I want it. I'm almost there and plan to branch out this winter.
I have tried waxing and I have tried vacuum sealing. I'm currently trying some with a natural rind. I definitely smelled a "sour" smell with a couple of vacuum sealed cheeses but it improved after letting them air for a couple of hours. Haven't had that problem with waxed cheeses, although I had mold under the wax on one. The natural rind seems to be the easiest to maintain (for me) so far, but I haven't had a chance to taste that one yet. It looks and smells great though!
Keep your chin up and keep making cheese. Take tons of notes, including notes on when you tasted what and how you perceive the taste and texture. Believe me, it's helpful in the long run to be able to look back at all that info.