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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => Problems - Questions - Problems - Questions? => Topic started by: Ananke on March 10, 2014, 08:36:05 PM

Title: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on March 10, 2014, 08:36:05 PM
I would like to try making a Maasdam cheese and I want to read up on Swiss style cheeses as much as I can before I even think about starting it as it's a wee bit out of my comfort zone.

The website I'm reading right now says that "The use of a Mesophilic rather than a Thermophilic culture is used"  Yet the Thermophilic culture that I have (Choozit TA61) says it's for Swiss cheese and I'm confused.  If anyone could help I'd appreciate it.

Also, does anyone have a recipe that would be easy for a newbie to follow?
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Al Lewis on March 10, 2014, 09:10:17 PM
You might want to send a PM to Alpkäserei and see if he can help you.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: george on March 11, 2014, 11:40:59 AM
Also, I believe Boofer has made Maasdam once or thrice - search the forum for 'Maasdam' and I'm sure you'll find his threads on his makes.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Boofer on March 11, 2014, 01:23:43 PM
Also, does anyone have a recipe that would be easy for a newbie to follow?
I have had some success with this style:
There are a number of attachments on the first posting which should help to clear up your confusion. ;)   Good luck.

Hi, george! :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on March 11, 2014, 01:37:16 PM
I've seen recipes that call for one or the other , some even use a hybrid of both cultures together.
Here is one make you could probably adjust for quantity.

http://www.milkme.co.nz/?p=1187 (http://www.milkme.co.nz/?p=1187)
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on March 11, 2014, 11:46:17 PM
Thanks everyone for your help, I'll read through those links.

Jwalker, I remember reading somewhere about using both types of culture.

Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Boofer on March 14, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
If you read the Alp D pdf you'll see a mix of meso & thermo.  I included it in "My Sweet Maasdam". A)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on March 15, 2014, 05:05:48 PM
Thanks Boofer.

My propionic culture and cheese salt arrived yesterday, I couldn't justify buying another culture at this stage so have gone with my thermophillic that says for swiss cheese.  I'm pretty much following your recipe just now but with 20ltrs of whole milk . 

My rennet was added over an hour ago and I'm still not getting a clean break, although it's almost there now.  I'm worried that this length of time will affect the final cheese.  Oh well, time will tell I suppose :)

Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on March 15, 2014, 07:18:52 PM
Well, this is looking like a disaster :( Everything was going so well too.

I seem to have a problem with my coagulation, 2hrs later and it's still not set properly.  I've cut the "curds" and stirred them with the whisk and it's all wrong.  Rather than throw all this milk out, I've added more rennet, I don't even know if that is something that can be done...
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 15, 2014, 08:12:39 PM
Forget the "directions" and quadruple your rennet next time. Every type and batch of rennet varies. Search on flocculation.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on March 15, 2014, 08:41:46 PM
Forget the "directions" and quadruple your rennet next time. Every type and batch of rennet varies. Search on flocculation.

Thanks Sailor Con Queso,  I think you are right, I tried to make a mozzarella the other night and had the same problem, my rennet is still in date and has been kept in the fridge but I think it must have lost some strength.

I have read up on flocculation but didn't feel experienced enough to add that to the "to do list" of what is already a complicated cheese for me. 

Adding the second lot of rennet didn't make any difference in 30mins so I've just put what I have into the press and will see what happens.

I definately want to try this one again.

Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 16, 2014, 03:56:37 PM
Testing flocculation is easy - and important. Add rennet and then put a small, lightweight bowl on top of the milk. At first, the bowl will spin very easily. When the bowl will no longer spin, that's the flocculation point. That should be around 12-15 minutes. That lets you know how well your rennet is working. If the floc time is too long, add more rennet NEXT TIME.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on March 16, 2014, 05:11:58 PM
Forget the "directions" and quadruple your rennet next time. Every type and batch of rennet varies. Search on flocculation.

Thanks Sailor Con Queso,  I think you are right, I tried to make a mozzarella the other night and had the same problem.

So it has happened more than once , I've had that happen too , sometimes it's just the milk and no matter how much rennet you use , it just doesn't set properly.

I have found that if the curd breaks up very small and won't separate from the whey , add VERY hot water and wash the curd , even if you aren't doing a washed curd cheese , it will help set the curd and separate it from the whey.

Yes , it will change the outcome of the cheese , it won't be the same cheese you set out too make , but it will salvage the batch , and in my experience , it has produce a very edible cheese every time , in fact some were downright delicious.

And being as you started with a thermo anyway , the hot wash won't hurt it.

I do this for a worst case scenario , when you think all is lost.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: GlabrousD on April 06, 2014, 07:31:28 AM
Thanks for the tip jwalker... that's a very useful idea for future problems. I really hate to throw out milk so a "cook it and see" solution will be perfect. Might even invent a new cheese :)

Cheers, GD.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on April 10, 2014, 03:57:27 PM
Thanks Sailor, that doesn't sound so scary and I'll try that with my next cheese.

Great tip, thanks JWalker.

I put it out in the cold cellar for a week then brought it inside to the warm for two weeks to form holes and it has puffed up quite a bit so that's a good sign.  I will put it back out into the cellar now, how long would you suggest I leave it there?



Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: WovenMeadows on April 11, 2014, 02:44:32 PM
Regarding the first question, my understanding is that a lot of these imitations of Emmental, like the Dutch Maasam and Leerdammer, Norwegian Jarlsberg, and US Baby Swiss, are a mesophilic, lower-temp make take on the Emmental process. Making for a faster ripening cheese. If the recipe has you cook beyond 104 degree though, you probably want to include some thermophilic
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on April 11, 2014, 06:23:46 PM
There may be more to it than just temperatures.

I can't find the thread right now , but I remember reading here somewhere , that thermo is used in some cheeses because it is activated by heat and will live longer than meso , continuing to add flavor and affect the cheese in other ways , longer into the aging process when the meso has already died off , and is sometimes used just for that purpose when higher heat isn't necessary.

I'll search for the link , maybe someone else here remembers it as well.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Boofer on April 19, 2014, 11:48:31 PM
my understanding is that a lot of these imitations of Emmental, like the Dutch Maasam and Leerdammer, Norwegian Jarlsberg, and US Baby Swiss, are a mesophilic, lower-temp make take on the Emmental process.
Sorry, I saw this and couldn't shake it.

You might try reading about Goutaler cheese styles. They are not simply a knock-off of a wayward Emmental make. Jarlsberg shares company with other Goutaler cheeses including Alpsberg and Felsberg from Germany, and Leerdamer and Maasdammer from the Netherlands.

Baby Swiss isn't connected with Goutaler styles.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: WovenMeadows on April 21, 2014, 12:20:54 AM
my understanding is that a lot of these imitations of Emmental, like the Dutch Maasam and Leerdammer, Norwegian Jarlsberg, and US Baby Swiss, are a mesophilic, lower-temp make take on the Emmental process.
Sorry, I saw this and couldn't shake it.

You might try reading about Goutaler cheese styles. They are not simply a knock-off of a wayward Emmental make. Jarlsberg shares company with other Goutaler cheeses including Alpsberg and Felsberg from Germany, and Leerdamer and Maasdammer from the Netherlands.

Baby Swiss isn't connected with Goutaler styles.

-Boofer-

Well, alright, maybe "imitation" is a bit too strong. When I searched for "Goutaler", its described as a cheese "modeled on" or "inspired by" both Gouda and Emmental. The name as a portmanteau suggests this of course: Gouda + Emmentaler = Goutaler. But I think its still fair to say then that these types seek to "imitate" as least certain key aspects of Emmental - the sweet nuttiness and holey-ness that comes from proprionic activity.

As for Baby Swiss not being connected with Goutaler types - how so? Maybe not historically, as an intentional technique "modeled on" the process or products of Gouda and Emmental. But in actual practice? The recipes by both Peter Dixon and Jim Wallace basically describe an aromatic-culture Gouda washed-curd make supplemented with Proprionic Shermani, and then allowed a warming period during aging. A Gouda-Emmentaler hybrid. The only real difference I can find in Jim Wallaces recipes between Baby Swiss and Jarlsberg is that the latter starts off at a higher temperature (the pre-ripening stage).
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on April 21, 2014, 01:49:53 PM
Quote
the sweet nuttiness and holey-ness that comes from proprionic activity.

I just love that description , the "holey-ness"  ;D , I've always felt that enjoying a good Emmentaller is a near religious experience. ;D ;D ;D ;D



Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: WovenMeadows on April 22, 2014, 01:06:31 AM
Lol, I actually spelled it that way first - holiness - and thought, something doesn't look quite right about that...
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on May 07, 2014, 09:18:30 PM
Show off time!  It has turned out really well and I'm so happy with it.  I'll seal half of it and let it mature a wee bit longer.

Here it is...
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 07, 2014, 10:03:49 PM
Ananke, congratulations, looks beautiful, cheese to you!
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on May 08, 2014, 07:50:35 AM
Thank you ArnaudForestier.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on May 08, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
Wow !!!
Fantastic , I never get eyes like that , what's your secret ?

I must be doing something wrong , you are obviously doing something right !

Another cheese to you .
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: H-K-J on May 08, 2014, 01:49:44 PM
Wow !!!
Fantastic , I never get eyes like that , what's your secret ?
I must be doing something wrong , you are obviously doing something right !

I know I am doing something wrong JW,
this looks excellent Ananke, I too wish I could get eyes like that :o
Have another well deserved cheese  ;D
a question, what cultures are in ALP-D?
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on May 08, 2014, 10:34:54 PM
Thanks guys.  I'm really proud of it. 
I used 1/4 tsp of this for the holes.
http://gnltd.co.uk/cheese-making-cultures-mould-propionic-culture-mesophilic.html (http://gnltd.co.uk/cheese-making-cultures-mould-propionic-culture-mesophilic.html)

If I could change one thing about it, I would leave it in the brine longer, I think it could be doing with a bit more salt, the family don't think it needs any changes but I think they are just being nice because of how excited I was when I cut into it and seen how nice it looked lol.


Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 08, 2014, 11:30:41 PM
No, no more salt!
Put the salt down!
I am convinced salt is the number one reason most people aren't getting eyes. PS and salt do not play well together

Emmentaler, by the way, is a very low salt cheese.

You need to get your flavor elsewhere, such as by age (in which case, it will actually form some compounds that taste salty)
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on May 09, 2014, 09:31:09 AM
"step away from the salt" lol That's interesting to know. 

I'm going to attempt Jeff's Caerphilly this weekend, there's no stopping me now :)
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: jwalker on May 09, 2014, 01:24:29 PM
No, no more salt!
Put the salt down!
I am convinced salt is the number one reason most people aren't getting eyes. PS and salt do not play well together

Emmentaler, by the way, is a very low salt cheese.

You need to get your flavor elsewhere, such as by age (in which case, it will actually form some compounds that taste salty)

I agree with Alp here , the imported emmentallers I have tried are very sweet and nutty tasting , with a definite lack of salt.

The sweetness is one of the things I like about them , I guess it's time to try another.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 09, 2014, 02:57:37 PM
Not an emmental study but a Beaufort study, and not Swiss emmental but French emmental, but the study gives NaCl g.kg^-1 as Emmental 3-6, Comté 4-10, and Beaufort 8-13.  Makes sense, as Beaufort has the strongest suppression of propionic among the three.  But all, esp. Emmental, quite low.
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Boofer on May 13, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
a question, what cultures are in ALP-D?
I included the doc in "My Sweet Maasdam (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9402.0.html)".

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: H-K-J on May 13, 2014, 01:29:37 PM
Thanks Boofer, There is more to it than I thought :o
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Savu on July 08, 2014, 10:00:16 AM
Anake, do you have the final recipe you used as it seems you used a hybrid of other recipes?
Title: Re: Culture Question
Post by: Ananke on August 16, 2014, 11:01:13 AM
Sorry, I've only just seen this question.

I was sure I had put my recipe and step by step on this site somewhere but I've been searching and can't find it.  Maybe I typed it up and saved it to my computer, I'll have a search later tonight.