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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: Boofer on July 31, 2011, 06:48:36 AM
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The wife's away so I decided to jump back into cheesemaking. I did this Tomme #4 yesterday and Tilsit #1 this morning...whew!
Using Pav’s recipe “Tomme: Washed Curd Howto” (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,15737.msg120981.html#msg120981)
Edited to redirect for linuxboy's Tomme since his WA Cheese Guild has gone dark.
Decided to attempt a really robust-rind Tomme. I was partially inspired by ArnaudForestier and Madeleine Kamman’s “Savoie” in which she tantalizingly describes Tomme cheese.
2 gallons Dungeness Valley Creamery whole raw Jersey milk
1 gallon Twin Brook Creamery whole creamline Jersey milk
1 gallon Twin Brook Creamery 2% creamline Jersey milk
¼ tsp KAZU
1/16 tsp TA61
1/8 tsp PLA
1/32 tsp mycodore
1/16 tsp dry calf rennet
My target culture temp was 88F. Starting from an initial pH of 6.66 >:D , I pitched the rennet (dissolved in cold water) after 30 minutes ripening. This is a departure from my normal process of waiting hours for a certain pH. Flocculation occurred in 18 minutes (the longest ever for me) and I used a multiplier of 3.5 for a set time of 63 minutes. When I cut to hazelnut size the pH was 6.57, and I rested the curds for 10 minutes.
Cook temp target was 100F at the end of 30 minutes. This was achieved by heating the water bath combined with removing 6 quarts of whey and replacing with a like amount of 130F water. A half gallon of the initial whey that was removed was saved for brining.
Applied heavy pressure under whey to achieve a smooth rind, rewrapped with acidified cloth to prevent sticking. Repeated the same several times until rind was smooth. Pressed in the pot overnight without whey using a 5 lb weight. This morning I measured pH 5.15 on the cheese before it went into the whey-brine. After 5 hours, flipped the cheese in the brine. Removed after 10 hours total brine time, dried, and placed in minicave with the lid cracked inside cave.
-Boofer-
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Boofer, that is a textbook classic tomme make, and your milk choice is excellent for our area. Try this at 90 days and keep aging it out. This specific make and approach should produce a cheese that is going to be tasty at even 1 week old, and will continue to improve with age and get better and better. Kudos, my friend :)
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Thanks for the encouragement.
You (and others) have given me the tools I need. The milk is optimal. The cultures are fresh. I believe my technique has improved. Now for the affinage. I am buoyantly optimistic. Might be something for the Thanksgiving table.
-Boofer-
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Bravo. Definitely on point technique and approach, perfectly suited to tomme. Pressing under whey and using the hand press technique for a tight rind formation is one of those things that makes a huge difference. Now just don't get it too humid and keep the temp constant and you'll be set. Kind of giddy right now, I think this is going to be amazing when you serve it. I'm a huge fan of this exact tomme, with Kazu.
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Began 3% brine washing regimen this morning.
The new rind looks really good after just the one week.
I've shown the side-by-side comparison of the Tomme done a week ago today along-side the Tilsit which I made last Saturday. Striking difference in the rind development, color, and appearance of the curd itself. The Tomme is darker with more of a translucent rind (in places). The Tilsit curd looks milkier and the rind is less pronounced. To be sure, same milk, different culture mix, different recipe & technique. I just thought it an interesting diversion starting with the same milk.
-Boofer-
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use saturated brine. It will dehydrate the outer rind and salt it to such a point that nothing will grow on it.
This quote was taken from a parmesan thread, but I fear I may have done that to this make. When I wash it with the 3% brine the water just beads off. :( Nice, if it were a parmesan...not so nice with this cheese. I am pushing on anyway, hoping that the cultures I've innoculated will give me a complex rind further down the road.
-Boofer-
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Up the humidity, keep temp at ~52 and keep washing, but not too frequently. You should get a little yeast/geo/linens action even on a hard crust. Might even see wisps of misc molds.
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Up the humidity, keep temp at ~52 and keep washing, but not too frequently. You should get a little yeast/geo/linens action even on a hard crust. Might even see wisps of misc molds.
Right now at 10:36PM, it's showing 52.1F at 99%. That to me says the environs inside the box are fairly saturated. The lid of the minicave is almost closed.
I've been washing every other day...too frequent? Also, the last two times I have washed, I left the rind moist (but not sopping wet) and didn't dry it off.
-Boofer-
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There is some rind activity on the hard edge as well as the softer flat top and bottom. Hopefully, adhering to the washing regimen and maintaining the temp/humidity will allow the rind to develop.
-Boofer-
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You have improved greatly grasshopper .... <bowing>
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Boof, one of the critical aspects that determines which species and types of flora grow, is the moisture level of the curd. It's technically denoted as surface moisture, or Aw.
In this tomme, based on what I see, your Aw is extremely low. Meaning if you have the perfect conditions, the cheese just will not support a ton of growth. You'll get typical geo covering, and lights wisps and spots here and there. And you might get secondary coverings in time.
A cheese like this is a good example for where a highly proteolytic morge blend would be the proper application, because anything else will not take readily.
It's not a fault, or anything, just that compare the rind here with the rind of your latest reblochons. Different Aw, different inoculations, and you have drastically different outcomes. Something to learn from when you're trying to craft a specific type of rind :).
I think this will be a great cheese even without an ultra fancy rind :)
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Boof, one of the critical aspects that determines which species and types of flora grow, is the moisture level of the curd. It's technically denoted as surface moisture, or Aw.
In this tomme, based on what I see, your Aw is extremely low. Meaning if you have the perfect conditions, the cheese just will not support a ton of growth. You'll get typical geo covering, and lights wisps and spots here and there. And you might get secondary coverings in time.
That's what I had surmised. At six days in, it was showing that translucent quality, indicating low Aw.
A cheese like this is a good example for where a highly proteolytic morge blend would be the proper application, because anything else will not take readily.
Could I really affect the rind at this point with "a highly proteolytic morge blend", and if so, how would I go about that?
It's not a fault, or anything, just that compare the rind here with the rind of your latest reblochons. Different Aw, different inoculations, and you have drastically different outcomes. Something to learn from when you're trying to craft a specific type of rind :).
So I let this one get too dry during those first few days out of the brine.... :(
There is a stark difference between this make and my Reblochon make. The other thing too is that with the first three Tomme makes, I was able to develop a complex rind without the rind becoming so bulletproof. Like I said, if I was trying for a Parmesan, this rind would be right in there.
I think this will be a great cheese even without an ultra fancy rind :)
I would agree. If I cannot alter the course that seems set with this hardy rind, at least I started with decent milk and fresh cultures. I should end up with a reputable cheese.
-Boofer-
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Boofer, LB, DeeJay Debi, thank you for the wonderful thread! Alot went over my head but I'm trying to catch what I can. Do I understand clearly that low moisture content of the curd (low Aw) is a prohibitive factor in rind formation? This would be due to the fact that the medium is now not conducive to breeding...right? Is this a pH issue, a stirring, or pressing issue or just a random something? I'm very curious because I am seriously desiring to learn how to develop the rind (my favorite part of the cheese!) I made a French Tomme on 8/12/11 and I don't have any translucence nor any mold growth. What can be said for the Aw of this rind? Its been in the drying cave at 58-60F and ~77% to 80%RH. I thought a translucent rind was desireable, but I guess that's contingent upon how you arrived at it...boy there's so much to learn! :-[
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Well, newcheemomma, I'm sure LB will detail deeper, but it all depends on what type of rind you are trying to achieve. My intent with this Tomme was to encourage a really robust, fuzzy, multicolored bloom from all of the innoculated constituents.
It would appear that particular dream will have to wait for the next Tomme iteration. I have successfully developed bloomy rinds on various cheese styles including Tommes, but this one bolted out of the gate and seems to have successfully hardened its rind for a long Winter's nap. I may still realize some growth as the washing proceeds and the innoculants struggle to emerge. Time & TLC may bring them out.
Your rind looks good for growth. At 8 days old, it seems like you are ready to begin washing.
You might want to reset the date-time on your camera. ;)
-Boofer-
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Could I really affect the rind at this point with "a highly proteolytic morge blend", and if so, how would I go about that?
Yes, you have to wash it with a stinky morge, like you would for gruyere. Something with a good deal of b linens. Those enzymes will penetrate the rind slowly and flavor it. It looks like what you really made is a mesophilic alpine variant. Totally within the acceptable range, but more favoring the eastern types than what you find in the Basque country.
So I let this one get too dry during those first few days out of the brine.... :(
Precisely. It formed a lovely dehydrated crust all around. I mean, in terms of skill, this is exactly what you want for something like an Italian thermophilic toma style, like a pecorino. But if you're aiming for a western style tomme, that isn't hand pressed at all. They stack them on top of each other and let them drain. The surface often has all sorts of pits. And then the mold growth covers all the pits over. But no press, and slow drain, and high curd moisture tends to ensure high surface Aw.
Do I understand clearly that low moisture content of the curd (low Aw) is a prohibitive factor in rind formation?
Let's differentiate between moisture-in-cheese (MFFB) and surface moisture (Aw). Two totally different things. When we talk about MFFB, what we're really talking about are the properties of the cheese and how dry it is, and how well it conforms to a specific style. A parmesan with a 40% MFFB would NOT be a parmesan, for example. When we talk about surface Aw, we are really talking about the threshold at which various flora will survive and thrive. Pathogens, and helper bugs have thresholds when they can enter the microbiological community on the rind. And the Aw determines how they interact. For example, a low surface Aw will promote slow enzyme penetration (so you wouldn't get something like a limburger), and will not promote the growth of many molds. It's a very important concept in bacteriology and sanitation because we can help ensure cleanliness by monitoring Aw on food contact surfaces.
This would be due to the fact that the medium is now not conducive to breeding...right?
Exactly. Conditions are not favorable.
Is this a pH issue, a stirring, or pressing issue or just a random something?
Look at it like a system. The edge of the cheese, even when in the press has subtly less moisture than the rest of the cheese. From that point, you can do whatever you want. You can try to create a huge gradient, where the surface will be very dehydrated, or you can actually re-hydrate the outer surface (such as by soaking the wheel in water after brining. Everything affects Aw. The moisture in curd does, because water travels a little in the cheese matrix. The brine concnetration does because a higher concentration will dehydrate the outer edge. pH does, because it helps to determine rate of ion exchange. Cheese matrix structure does, because higher fat tends to lead to higher moisture. Pressing schedule does, because having an ultra high initial press, followed by a low press makes for a dryer rind than a steady press (slightly so). Aging schedule does because temp and humidity have an affect. It's the way you see the cheese start to finish that determines the rind characteristics.
and I don't have any translucence nor any mold growth. What can be said for the Aw of this rind?
I have no idea. Remember, too, that if molds don't settle on the rind, nothing will grow. They don't magically appear. If your natural environment is very clean, you have to inoculate the milk and/or wash the cheese to introduce flora.
cave at 58-60F and ~77% to 80%RH.
If you want mold, you need to crank that up to mid 90s RH. 92-95 is good. or more, depending how you want the balance of flora to be and what inoculant you use.
really robust, fuzzy, multicolored bloom from all of the innoculated constituents.
You'll get there! I think this thread will help understand more of the nuances of rind formation. It really is incredibly nuanced because we're dealing with living organisms. It's like gardening... plant blueberries and get the pH wrong, and don't amend the soil, and don't give them enough sun, and plant them in the wrong path of the sun, and those blueberries are going to be pitiful. While your neighbor might do what looks like exactly the same thing, but have tons of huge berries. If someone were to watch me prep a tomme for a certain rind style, I can almost guarantee that it would not be easy to replicate without some trial and error because there are all these subtle triggers that I look for, and manipulate a few dozen variables (important ones mentioned above) to make them all work together. Some variables are less important that others, so it's more of an experience and practice than following instructions in a recipe.
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LB...thank you so very much. The lights are coming on and understanding is increasing. This is perhaps one of the most satisfying threads I've come across. I get it about the difference between MFFB and the Aw. I also have a better feel for the flow of the system. Understanding the system-knowing how it works and where it will flex-invaluable. Thank you for sharing your time, expertise and experience with us (me) :)
Boofer...thank you as well for sharing your thoughts, successes and insights. I gain so much from your responses and I appreciate that you always respond to questions...no matter how basic. From my reading of your notes last night, I began washing this tomme with a 5% brine. Is this sufficient? I also put it in a aging cave where the humidity is higher. Am I on the right track? Thanks again for the wonderful and informative thread.
...and I reset the time/date on my camera ::)
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washing this tomme with a 5% brine.
This will inhibit and kill almost all geos and PCs and many other molds. If you want blues and b linens and the like, or are approaching this from an approach where you use multiple brine concentrations and multiple inoculations to create successions of flora ecosystems, then you can start with 5%. Otherwise, 2-3% is preferred.
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Thanks LB. For a 2-3% solution, that would be 2-3 tsp of kosher/cheese salt per cup of boiled water? Also, will you recommend a book on cheese science? I'm not a scientist, but I think I'm ready to increase the learning curve.
Many thanks.
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Eh? No, it's by weight. See my chart http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=59 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65&Itemid=59)
if you want metric, it's weight per volume of final solute. You're calculating the weight of the solid in a specific known quantity of weight of the liquid.
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Okay, I have a challenge in front of me...but I see I may still have options. 8)
While perusing my computer notes, I came across this piece from linuxboy's Beaufort rind treatment:
"Once there's a good rind on the outside, a sort of thick, impenetrable one, the morge wash can begin.
The morge wash works in the long run primarily through heavily proteolytic b linens. This will break down protein rapidly, and will create a soft cheese if the moisture is high. But if the moisture is low, it will slowly break up the protein peptides into amino acids, creating really intense flavor. So 4-6 weeks into it, or whenever the rind is ready, you start the morge wash and keep layering it on."
I took those as my marching orders for this cheese style with this condition. This morning I adjusted the simple 3% brine wash to include PLA and B. linens. That, coupled with high 90's humidity and 54F temp, should bring some desired change. I will try to document significant changes to the current status quo.
-Boofer-
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Wisdom does not mean always starting off in the right direction, but knowing when to change course. I look forward to seeing how this progresses. A cheese for you!
- Jeff
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Thanks for your encouragement, Jeff.
Washing with PLA and linens added to the 3% brine. I've been washing and returning the small wash bowl back to the fridge, hopefully increasing the effectiveness of the morge.
I'm afraid my battle on this iron-clad rind is all uphill. Pics show that nothing is getting through. :'(
Question to linuxboy:
The flat surfaces show significant growth. Could just the flat surfaces provide enough rind development (hence, paste ripening) that I needn't worry about the hard edge rind?
-Boofer-
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I am resigned to the hard rind that this cheese has developed. It is not what I was aiming for, but I will make the best of it and not repeat that error in Tomme #5, whenever that comes.
The flat surfaces are developing quite a yeasty/moldy character. This should be interesting. Hopefully the paste will benefit and produce a flavorful cheese.
-Boofer-
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sorry, didn't see this earlier
The flat surfaces show significant growth. Could just the flat surfaces provide enough rind development (hence, paste ripening) that I needn't worry about the hard edge rind?
Remember, it's a continuum where you are balancing flavor by controlling temp, humidity, rind flora, to work with the cheese properties (salt/pH/moisture gradients, total moisture, etc). So "enough" is a hard term here. I think what you're really asking is that the sides are not showing much growth, and if this is an issue. It's not.
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That's what I concluded. Thanks for that.
-Boofer-
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I'll crack this open on Halloween so that it more closely aligns with the subject of this thread. It will be 90 days old at that point.
It should be interesting. I've rubbed it and smoothed it, knocking the white bloom down so that it just shows in the crevices. There is "give" to the flat surfaces when lightly pressed so I believe that the paste will be somewhat moist even though the rind is probably the hardest I have yet to encounter. I normally like rind in hard cheeses, so I hope this one is tasty.
To be quite honest, I wanted a more lively rind, but something got away from me in that first few days of drying and the rind became impenetrable. Without passing judgement on this effort, I will see a Tomme #5 soon to realize that more robust rind. I remain optimistic that this cheese will surprise and delight me.
-Boofer-
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Can I have a go?
I made a washed curd tomme and slightly over acidified it at the press.
I brined it and set it on a mat I just used for camambert, Lots of white fluffy candida spores on it.
My morge is 2% salt by wight and some port wine slightly acidified with some chardonay I had left since the port is fairly low on acid (Ph 3.7).
The temp is 15c RH 92-95%. I wash it twice a week.
PC has started growing on the cheese,the strain is a low\slow proteolytic one and the coverage is building up by my asistance.
Can this type of cheese eventually amoniate and soften (not gooey like camambert since its much lower moisture)?
How should I continue?
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Opening day at the cheese factory!
Three months in and time to taste the cheese. I cut this, my Tilsit #1, and an Austrian Tilsit. I asked my wife to join me in tasting and comparing these three cheeses. I rely upon her olfactory senses because mine are not quite as optimal as hers. Yesterday while I was rubbing them and inspecting for today's opening, I asked her to smell them. She characterized them both as "clean" (I would guess...meaning "fresh".), but added that the Tomme smelled like freshly-dug earth (I would guess that meant "mushroomy".)
Today, after tasting all three of these candidates, she said she liked the Tomme best out of all three. She did say she wasn't too fond of the rind and she removed it to increase her tasting pleasure. She even said that if I served it, not to serve it with the rind. I found that the rind was edible but it did contribute to the earthiness of the cheese.
I would say that this was a definite improvement in my Tomme lineup. After cutting a portion for my son and his family, I vacuum-sealed the remainder and will continue to age it.
-Boofer-
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Nicely done Boofer! I've been waiting to see how this one turned out for you. I'm very pleased to hear it was a remarkable success. It certainly looks like a very presentable cheese, and the tasting report compliments the visual nicely. Well done. A cheese for your persistance.
- Jeff
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Thanks, Jeff. I'm watching your exploits as well and trying to pick up pointers from your postings. Very inspiring.
-Boofer-
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Nice! is that a gas producing starter you used?
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Nice! is that a gas producing starter you used?
I used Kazu. Gas-producer? Not so much.
-Boofer-
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Great looking texture and body, wow.
Cut wheel pix show that rind has grown nicely.
Good job Boofer !
Hande
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Thesea re gas holes right? not mechcanial openings.
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Yes, I guess they are gas holes. Could be a combination of other components of PLA though.
-Boofer-
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Well I had a desire for some hard cheese for breakfast this morning. I had two candidates in mind and decided on this winner.
I sliced off the rind since it's not really my favorite in an aged cheese like this. It was a little darker than earlier pics show it. It is aging very comfortably and complemented the apple nicely. I would like to repeat this with some summer milk again. Excellent texture and flavor. The salt level also shows a light touch (10 hours brine-time) which makes it very edible.
-Boofer-
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Kudos again. One of my favorite standbys to make. That looks fantastic. Milk right now around here is really high quality due to the grass, can create some nuanced and exceptional makes.
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That looks to be a very nice breakfast. Yum!
- Jeff
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:o OOOOOOOooooooOOOooooOooo :P Now I have got to get more milk!!!
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That really looks good Boofer! Not only do we seem to have the same bowls but we even have the same fancy plates! LOL
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Yeah, only the Best, Debi! :)
-Boofer-
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I hear ya Boofer!
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Great looking cheese, how long did you age it?
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Great looking cheese, how long did you age it?
Three months. (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7719.msg59008.html#msg59008)
...and then later, at 10 months:
Well I had a desire for some hard cheese for breakfast this morning. I had two candidates in mind and decided on this winner.
-Boofer-