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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Aging Cheese, Everything Except Caves => Topic started by: MacGruff on February 13, 2012, 11:34:12 PM

Title: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: MacGruff on February 13, 2012, 11:34:12 PM
Many people here have vouched for using a vacuum bag system instead of waxing various kinds of cheese. My question is what should be done if you vacuum seal in terms of aging?

Is it still a good idea to keep it in a temp range of 50-55 degrees and a humidity level of 80% or higher? Maybe once you vacuum seal, you should just put the cheese in the regular fridge?

I have also seen some recommendations from people who told me to first age the cheese in a 'cave' for a few weeks to a few months, and only then vacuum seal it. Again, the question remains: Once vacuum sealed, does it need to be in a carefully controlled environment?

Any help appreciated! Thanks!

Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on February 14, 2012, 12:08:31 AM
Quote
Is it still a good idea to keep it in a temp range of 50-55 degrees and a humidity level of 80% or higher? Maybe once you vacuum seal, you should just put the cheese in the regular fridge?
Yes keep them in your cheese fridge.

Quote
I have also seen some recommendations from people who told me to first age the cheese in a 'cave' for a few weeks to a few months, and only then vacuum seal it. Again, the question remains: Once vacuum sealed, does it need to be in a carefully controlled environment?
You can cut them in wedges and vacuum pack. I would still keep it in the cheese fridge if I am not going to consume them immediately.

How is the humidity in your cave? Why are you vacuum packing them?
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on February 14, 2012, 03:42:07 AM
MacGruff,

Once you vac bag, humidity is not an issue, but temperature is still very important. Unless you plan on aging for years, you cannot age cheese in your regular refrigerator.

I personally go natural rind for a month and then vac bag.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: zenith1 on February 14, 2012, 03:01:42 PM
Macgruff_ I totally agree with Sailor and follow a similar workflow. That is I age with a natural rind for a month or longer and then vacuum bag when I want to age long term without the worry of having the wheel dry out too much. Like Sailor has already mentioned, the humidity will then not be a concern, but the temperature that you age at will still need to be closely regulated as it will ultimately determine how long you will need to age your wheels.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: MacGruff on February 15, 2012, 01:28:28 AM
I have a vacuum sealer. I also have a dorm-stye fridge that I found I can keep at between 50-56 degrees F. I have managed to find ways to keep the humidity consistently in the 85%+ Rh.

Glancing at my hydrometer just now, the readings are 50.0 temp and 91% humidity.

I was asking because I have had a terrible time keeping blue and black mold off my cheeses. Another problem I have is that I travel for business about 30-35% of the time and am away from the house for a week at a time. When I come back, the cheese wheels are compeltely festooned with mold. I wipe it off with vinegar and salt, but some still remains settled in dips in the cheese and so I know it will be back within a day or two. Since I cannot consistently keep it clear, I was hoping to vacuum seal it and be able to forget it.

For now, I have three cheeses in the cave. Each in a vacuum pack. But I wonder if I packaged them up too quickly. I have a Havarti that I made two months ago; a Gouda from about 5 weeks ago, and a Colby that's two weeks old.

Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Tobiasrer on February 15, 2012, 04:25:08 AM
Why do you like the natural rind? is this not kind of a waste, as some of the rind would not be eaten? wouldnt vac packing not save that and alot of the hassel of maintaing humidity and checking? I am asking as I have no experiance now so... wanna see what the pro's do ;-)
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: anutcanfly on February 15, 2012, 04:53:57 AM
I tried out cheese cream as an alternative to wax and vacuum packing and so far its been working well.  It peels off, so I don't lose the rind and it does breath, as the marker I used went right thru and stained the cheese.  I'll use a grease pencils from now on.  I've been using one layer and so far that's been enough.  I know more as time passes. 
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on February 15, 2012, 02:43:47 PM
ANut- The cheese cream breathes a little too well. Watch your humidity or the cheese will dry out and get hard.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: anutcanfly on February 15, 2012, 06:25:59 PM
Thanks for the heads up Sailor.  I was hoping that would be the case!  I keep my cave humid as I don't use cheese cream until the cheese is 2 to 3 weeks old.  It's weird, but now that my cave is almost full, I have trouble keeping the humidity down to 85%.  I don't have any water in the cave and all surfaces are dry.  These days I have to leave the door open for a while each day to bring the humidity down.  Any idea's why that is???
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on February 15, 2012, 09:27:40 PM
Cheeses constantly give off some moisture, especially in the early stages of aging. The more you have, the higher the humidity.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: anutcanfly on February 15, 2012, 11:59:52 PM
That's what has me stymied, except for 2 cheese cream treated cheeses, the rest of the cheeses in there are vacuum packed!  I keep the natural rinds cheeses in containers in an unheated room of the house during the winter months.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: MacGruff on February 16, 2012, 01:02:55 AM
anutcanfly - I experienced the exact same thing.

When I had one cheese in the cave, I was struggling to get the humidity over 80%. As soon as I put the second cheese in, the humidity zoomed to 90%+.

AND all my cheeses are vacuum sealed right now!!!     ???

Anyway, I have three cheeses in there at this moment and my Hygrometer is reading 92%.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: anutcanfly on February 16, 2012, 01:47:14 AM
Yep.  Last winter I had to keep a pan of water in my cave to keep it at 85%  Well it's nice to not to be the only one perplexed.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: leabrit on April 27, 2012, 06:08:36 PM
I watched a Utube where they made swiss cheese and they vacuum sealed it straight away? What I like is I can see if it is developing any problems unlike when you wax
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Caseus on April 27, 2012, 07:18:11 PM
You can see through natural color wax, especially if you just use a couple of thin coats. 

I have a vacuum bagger, but I haven't attempted that method yet.  I will eventually, but right now I'm just waxing because that's how I started.  I've only made four cheeses, so no great amount of experience here yet.   :)

What I'd like to know is how that cream works, what it's made of, whether it has mold-inhibiting additives (e.g., Natamycin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natamycin)), and where I can get it.  So long as its not something I'd want to put in my mouth, I might be interested in trying it.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Boofer on April 27, 2012, 07:43:55 PM
What I'd like to know is how that cream works, what it's made of, whether it has mold-inhibiting additives (e.g., Natamycin ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natamycin[/url])), and where I can get it.  So long as its not something I'd want to put in my mouth, I might be interested in trying it.
You might check member Hoeklijn for more details on how it's used. He uses it.

I've attached one source (http://thecheesemaker.com/supplies.htm) of the coating.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on April 27, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
Some have Natamycin (mold inhibitor) and some don't, so you have to ask the supplier. I hate the cream because it digs in and makes the rind inedible.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Caseus on April 27, 2012, 09:55:15 PM
That was the first time I'd really explored that cheesemaker site (http://thecheesemaker.com/supplies.htm), Boofer.  They carry a fascinating array of tempting goodies.   8)

$75 for 5 pounds of cream wax seems expensive unless a little goes a long way, in which case it might be a lifetime supply.  I rather suspect that is the case.  There's no indication there of shelf life or keeping qualities, so that is something I'd consider.  But I did find a smaller (albeit more expensiver per pound) 500 gram jar of it here (http://www.homesteadersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=108&cPath=0_193#googlebase), and it appears that it comes from Glengarry.  Anyway, not hard to find.

Making the rind inedible is a big consideration for me because I am making only small cheeses right now (2 gallon batches).  The smaller the cheese, the greater the loss due to inedible rind.

Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: knipknup on April 28, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
I vac packed my couple of cheeses this past weekend after fighting with humidity and giving up.  The highest I was able to get anything was 70%.  My cave is a little dorm fridge.  Now I'm fighting with temp.  I am trying to avoid buying a temp controller, but the warmest I've gotten it is 45F.  Is that too cold?  It really isn't big enough to age cheese for years unless I stop making now.  I would prefer to age 3-6 months on 'regularly made' items.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: Boofer on April 28, 2012, 02:04:00 PM
I vac packed my couple of cheeses this past weekend after fighting with humidity and giving up.  The highest I was able to get anything was 70%.  My cave is a little dorm fridge.  Now I'm fighting with temp.  I am trying to avoid buying a temp controller, but the warmest I've gotten it is 45F.  Is that too cold?  It really isn't big enough to age cheese for years unless I stop making now.  I would prefer to age 3-6 months on 'regularly made' items.
I have two 4.5 cu ft "dorm" fridges as caves. They each have a temp controller that keeps the temp around 52F. The ambient humidity inside is around 80%, but my new cheeses are in their own little minicaves which keeps them comfy at RH around 98%. Right now that's important for the blues I have in there.

You can get by without a temp controller for now, but the cheeses will take longer to ripen. There are a lot of choices for cheeses that ripen in 3-6 months. I opened my Leiden recently after only 9 weeks. There are blues, lactics, Camembert, Reblochon, and others that ripen fairly quickly. Very rarely do I see a cheese that has to go for 12 months and pretty much never for years. That third pic shows some possible candidates for long-term affinage on the shelf below the minicave (Fourme d'Ambert #1, little guy): Cheddar #1, Cheddar #2, and Double Gloucester #1. Humidity isn't an issue for them because they're enclosed in vacuum bags.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: MrsKK on April 29, 2012, 06:52:44 AM
I also use a mini fridge as my cave.  Many of the cheeses I make start out in a ripening container - lidded plastic box with a rack in the bottom to keep the cheese wheel out of any moisture.  I really like the natural rind that forms in the ripening box.  When they come out of that, I usually give them about a week to dry up a bit more, then coat them with lard or butter.  It is a bit messy, but tends to dry out eventually.  Once that happens at around the 2-3 month mark, I'm more comfortable with vacuum sealing the cheese.

My mini fridge is rapidly filling up now that the cow is back in milk.  I've got a Colby and a Tomme that are ready to be vac sealed, plus a half-wheel of Gouda that's already been vacuum packed - when I make more cheese that needs to be aged, the oldest will go into the warmest part of the regular fridge.   Not ideal, but it works for the time being.
Title: Re: Waxing vs Vacuum - effect on aging?
Post by: knipknup on April 29, 2012, 07:39:28 PM
My mini-fridge is probably only 1 sqft.  It was only $20 and I got what I paid for.  I had a big 'ol fridge for lagering beers and it raised my energy bills, so I went little this time.  I may upgrade in a while, but not now.

Humidity is my biggest issue.  I can't seem to get the humidity higher than 70%.  I am encouraged by the posts that state higher with more cheese (even with all vac sealed) in the fridge, which is probably a function of the volume going down. We'll see if this happens here as well.

Working on a fontina today.