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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: wharris on June 12, 2009, 02:24:36 PM
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Just curious what everyone uses:
I use this:
EZAL MA11
Contains:
- (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
- (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
I know there are fancier cultures out there. Mine is a strictly Mesophilic approach, But I know that there are some Mesophilic-Thermophilic hybrids out there.
Love to know what you pros use.
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Depends on where my last order went out to and which recipe I am using:
Choozit™ MA11
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(Dairy Connections)
or
CHOOZIT™ 102
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(Danlac- bulk package)
or
Choozit™ RA 24
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(SSP) Streptococcus salivarius subsp. thermophilus
(Danlac)
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So, Sometimes you use both "CHOOZIT™ 102" and "Choozit™ RA 24" in the same batch?
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Nope sorry I thought I put the or in there someplace. one or the other. I fixed it - sorry again.
When I am making just squeeky cheese aka cheese curds or making a horseradish cheedar I use the RA 24 because of the increased heat you get firmer curds making them more squeeky longer. It also seems to bring out more of the horseradish flavor with the hotter curds.
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You could also use a combination of MA 11 and Thermophilic Type C or the 102 and Thermophilic Type C to achive the same affect.
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Sounds real good. Thanks so much.
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Your most welcome sir!
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Wow, I have alot of studying to do.
I'm about to do my first cheddar and I'm using a little white packet that says Mesophilic on it, which I got from New England cheesemaking supply. No other details.
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Quite a few of the books I've read say Mesophilic culture or Thermophilic culture and are not specific. You can use any one that you have or make one from yogurt or buttermilk if you wish. The cultures I listed are just suggested alternatives that worked well for me.
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When you use a thermophilic culture, do you adjust temp?
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I am by no means a cheddar expert, so take this for what it's worth. I assume you are talking about proper cheddar, not farmhouse or stirred. Proper chedar requires a meso culture or you'll never get your pH down during the cheddaring. Any aggressive meso acidifier will do:
Kazu
MA4001
MA
RM
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Yes Wayne I do. but as I mensioned only for sweaky cheese curds.
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Thanks Deb. I may try that.
FRANCOIS - where do you get some of those cultures? I've never heard of Kazu
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Egon sells a Kazu1 1000 I LYO 50 DCU for making Gouda Cheese
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar. diacetilactis
Lactobacillus helveticus
Carrier: Sucrose, Maltodextrins
but that's the only one I found.
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oh, a Gouda culture?
ok - See this is the really the basis for my question. I am trying to see what others use for Cheddar.
When I go grab a block of cheddar from the store, I always wonder what starter culture thay used, and since I can't aske them, I thought I would ask those in this forum.
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Kazu is also available from Glengarry. I believe that it is a Danisco product.
Edit to include: http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/index.htm (http://www.glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/index.htm)
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I found a little more info on the cutures:
MA 4001 - The MA 4001/4002 series is predominantly a blend of standard mesophilic lactic acid cultures plus a S. thermophilis for quicker acid production during cheesemaking. Can be used for soft or hard cheeses. Also contains Lactococcus lactis subsp. diacetylactis which is a mild gas producing bacteria which will produce some openess in the texture of hard cheeses.
Kazu - same as MA 4001/MA 4002 but has no thermophile. Contains L. helveticus. Good for gouda and cheddar.
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great info, I have added that to the rest of the stuff floating around upstairs!
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Thanks for the info.
But why would we want any openess in a hard cheese like cheddar?
Also, how does the increase in rate to proper acid levels affect taste/smell/texture? Any change at all?
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Diacetylactis is used not so much for openness as for producing aroma and a "butter" organoleptic sensation by producing diacetyl or its precursor, α-acetolactate. The curd cutting and pressing schedule has more to do with openness. Pressing under the whey, for example, or pressing under a high weight/psi for cheddar should mitigate the open texture issue for cheese.
The different acid production levels have to do with metabolization rate at various temps and production of L or D (+ or - isomers) lactic acid. For cheddar, you want fast acidification at the typical mesophilic temps of 80-90 F. The acidity affects texture and taste more than smell. The salt level and pH at salting also significantly influences proteolysis. You can use a bacteria with high acid production to save time in manufacturing so long as there is proper quality control and the cheese is salted at the proper pH, pressed, and cooled to stop or retard the lactose metabolysis.
In short, for home producers, the important thing is to ensure there is some diacetylactis and some L. Helveticus for cheddar. diacetylactis adds a buttery richness and L. Helveticus helps to control bitter peptide formation. The rest is proper affinage and controlling temp and humidity. Well, that and milk and the entire cheddaring process.
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This thread was one of the most informative that I have read on the forum. Great information by all, and thanks to Wayne for starting the thread. I'm sure we all benefited from this one.
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agrees with zenith1, there are some quality players here that post very informative information.
I am familiar with diacetyl as it is a byproduct from Malo Lactic Fermentation in winemaking. It does produce a distinctive buttery aroma.
I may alter my cheddar formula to include some L. Helveticus based on this thread,
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I would just add an aside that calling any culture a "gouda" or "cheddar" culture is misleading. while it may be true that many people use that culture for the purpose, there is more than one way to skin a cat. As an example I work with two cheesemakers. One is from france, the other is from Switzerland. Last week we got into a lively discussion about cultures used for brie/cam. It turns out the culture I was using as my main acifidifer the swiss guy never used because he thought it was only for aroma, while the frenchman was using a culture I would only use in harder cheeses. It all comes down to how you use the culture and what results you are trying to get.
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It really is amazing. Seems to come down to understanding what is is you are trying to accomplish. The cultures are merely a tool. A means to and end.
And the key is is just understanding the process, and understanding what you are trying to do.
Much like making wine.
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To make it even more confusing, there are at least dozens of strains/families of each culture, and the strain you get depends on the manufacturer. For example, for L. Helveticus, not all strains help significantly with bitter peptides, it's actually a select 5-10 according to studies. Similarly for diacetylactis, the rate of mg diacetyl produced per liter varies among strains. And if you use a mother culture, then that rate can change over time with mutations, bacteria adaptations, colony dominant strain dynamics, etc.
I really like your wine analogy because the biochemical complexities are similar. With wine you have all sorts of complexities like dissolved O2 for kreusen/initial yeast growth, available N and minerals for yeast cell wall strength to resist osmotic pressures, as well as initial tannin extraction through enzymatic and yeast action, and then during aging the rate of oak compound extracted, and how it interacts with tannin and SO2 levels, evaporation in the barrel, and thousands of other issues.
I think cheese is actually more straightforward :).
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It's like anything else ... take 100 people and ask for their recipe for apple pie and you'll get 100 diferent recipes - but it's all apple pie! It doesn't make one recipe wrong or right just their style of apple pie!
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That's very true. Deb.
What I want to do is understand what makes the best "apple pie",
and then be able to accurately reproduce that "apple pie" over and over.
And as a winemaker, I agree with Linuxboy, I think makin cheese is a bit more straightforward.
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I understand where you are going Wayne it just difficult to determine what you favorite version might be. In NY they think their cheese is better than Vermont and Vermont thinks their better than Wisconsin etc.
In you effort to find perfection just don't forget to have fun. ;)