CheeseForum.org ยป Forum

GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Forming Cheese => Topic started by: Boofer on July 03, 2010, 07:38:13 AM

Title: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on July 03, 2010, 07:38:13 AM
After a baker's dozen cheese makes with industrial milk, I finally bought some raw milk. It wasn't an easy decision. The homo/past milk I normally use is $3.69/gallon. These 2 gallons of raw milk set me back $9.99/gallon.  :o  I was in probably the only store that sells raw milk in my area but I had to do it. What was going along fairly well took a nasty turn somewhere along the line.

I followed the Monterey Jack recipe from 200 Easy Cheeses. I used 1/4tsp Choozit MM100 and 1/2 rennet tablet.

When the curds were finished cooking, I scooped them and put them into a cheeseclothed collander to drain and then packed them into small (4.375 inch) Kadova moulds. These were put into the kettle with warm whey and pressed with 5 lbs for 30 minutes. Then I added an additional 10 lbs for a total of 15 lbs for another 30 minutes.

The curds were very squeeky and very yellow.

For the third pressing I excused my brain as it apparently had a previous committment. I kept the moulds in the whey but moved it over to the press where I proceeded to apply 150 lbs for 11 hours. When I returned and took the moulds out of the press...boy, was I surprised. And not in a good way! The cheese curds had pressed out through the leak holes in the mould and created nubbins. OMG! The cheese had virtually become part of the mould. Not a good sign. This raw milk adventure doesn't seem to be going as smoothly as I had first imagined.  :(

Facing an impossible recovery task, I gently teased the cheese from the mould. ripped the heart out of my dear cheese getting it free of the mould's death grip.

I placed the two little cheeses into their whey-brine bath. After that, I dried them and left them at room temperature to dry some more. This morning I vacuum-sealed them and put them in the cave. My raw milk dream all but shattered. At this point I'm not sure if . . .

As always, I welcome all advice, cajoling, catcalls, and amusingly derisive comments.  :P

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: tnsven on July 03, 2010, 12:10:00 PM
This has been happening to me lately, cheeses pressing through & sticking to the cheesecloth (I don't have fancy kordova molds). I think because the air temp is warm (Summer in TN). If it were me, I'd go ahead and age them. As you note, they won't be pretty but they may taste o.k.

Sandor Katz stated in Wild Fermentation that all cheese is good!

Kristin
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: FarmerJd on July 03, 2010, 01:44:05 PM
Boofer, I laughed out loud reading this. It still looks like cheese.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: DeejayDebi on July 03, 2010, 08:46:02 PM
Curd should not be more than 85ish when pressing or your initial pressing was to hard while the pH was still to high. Start with low pressure and slowly bring the pressure up after flipping a few times. When the curds are warm they are more likely to meld into the netting as well.

Also do not rinse the netting or molds in water before pressing use whey.

When the acid levels are to high the curds will stick rinsing the molds in whey will help lower the pH and keep the curds from sticking.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: linuxboy on July 03, 2010, 08:53:33 PM
I really like Sailor's approach of spraying kadovas with a salt/vinegar spray, and flipping a few times in the first couple of hours to build up a rind. It works very well to help prevent sticking when using kadovas or cheesecloth.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on July 03, 2010, 09:40:08 PM
I really like Sailor's approach of spraying kadovas with a salt/vinegar spray, and flipping a few times in the first couple of hours to build up a rind. It works very well to help prevent sticking when using kadovas or cheesecloth.
When you say "flipping" as regards to Kadova moulds, how exactly does that work? Do you actually treat the Kadovas like a mould with cheesecloth?

I did just pull the moulds out of a boiling water bath prior to filling. And I do recall seeing the note from Sailor about spraying the netting. Hey, you in the back of the class...wake up!

Farmer - You have to find the humor in things like this or you'll go nuts. Eh, it's all part of the grand learning experience called life. Hopefully I'll have something tasty to show for my expense and frustration.

Fortunately, my confidence is only momentarily shaken. I have several other cheese candidates which are moving along nicely. Matter-of-fact, I'll post a new variety for me that I've jumped into but haven't seen on the radar here yet: Esrom.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: linuxboy on July 03, 2010, 09:45:24 PM
I mean taking the hunk of cheese out of the liner, flipping it so the top becomes the bottom, and putting it back in the press. It helps to make a good rind and helps to prevent sticking. It's also an opportunity to spray the liner again :)
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: BigCheese on July 04, 2010, 05:22:22 AM
I have been leaving my molds, followers, cheesecloth, etc in the warm whey from my cheese for a few minutes prior to hooping curds. This both prevents sticking and warms the molds to help with knitting. I considered adopting the spray with vinegar method but have not had any problems so far so figure why buy another spray bottle.

a 4.375" kadova, thats 450 grams, right? Without looking at the charts I have gotten from here, that seems like an awful lot of weight on those little guys.

That raw milk looks great, what state are you in?
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on July 04, 2010, 07:57:09 AM
Thanks, linuxboy. Seems like the "shoulders" of the Kadova would present problems when you flip.

a 4.375" kadova, thats 450 grams, right? Without looking at the charts I have gotten from here, that seems like an awful lot of weight on those little guys.

That raw milk looks great, what state are you in?

You're right. The weight was a little aggressive. I had an estimated 5psi (10 lbs applied). Perhaps 2.8psi (5 lbs applied) would have been more appropriate. I stumbled several times during that make. Eh!?

I'll be applying these tips down the road.

I'm in Washington state.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: linuxboy on July 04, 2010, 03:47:41 PM
Thanks, linuxboy. Seems like the "shoulders" of the Kadova would present problems when you flip.


You mean because the wheel top wouldn't at first smush down all the way to the end of the liner? Having trouble seeing what you mean... If you take the cheese wheel out, turn it around, and put it back into the liner, then put the follower on top again and press, pressing it in shouldn't need that much weight.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: sominus on July 05, 2010, 03:44:43 PM
I found that when I used cheese cloth it would stick or create odd problems... But when I use muslin everything comes out nicely - no runs, no drips, no errors.  I use muslin all the time now -- I don't think I have any cheese cloth left anywhere.

Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on July 05, 2010, 06:11:23 PM
I found that when I used cheese cloth it would stick or create odd problems... But when I use muslin everything comes out nicely - no runs, no drips, no errors.  I use muslin all the time now -- I don't think I have any cheese cloth left anywhere.

When I use my 7-3/8 inch non-Kadova mould, I use muslin. Tighter weave = fewer problems.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: DeejayDebi on July 06, 2010, 03:20:38 AM
Boffer one thing about the smaller kadovas is they are tappered near the top and if you don't have  enough curds they will bottom out on the sides before they actually smush the cheese down.

I also prewarm the molds and followers in the whey in the vat before adding curds.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on July 06, 2010, 04:15:59 AM
Vinegar spray with a little added CaCl works like a charm. 150 was definitely a little aggressive. Press, spray, flip. Increase weight, repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on July 06, 2010, 06:59:28 AM
Vinegar spray with a little added CaCl works like a charm. 150 was definitely a little aggressive. Press, spray, flip. Increase weight, repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Jotting this down....  ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on July 06, 2010, 03:08:59 PM
Sticking starts when the pH really starts to drop, generally a couple of hours into pressing, depending on the cheese. I usually flip 3 times at 1/2 hour intervals and then flip a 4th time and finish up overnight. I do NOT spray on the first two flips. I always spray on the last two flips.

As whey is squeezed out during pressing, a little calcium comes out too and can aggressively bond to the netting or cheesecloth. The idea is to balance the DIFFERENCE between the pH and calcium levels at the surface of the cheese and those of the netting or cheesecloth.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: cclear1959 on July 08, 2010, 01:50:01 PM
Sailor, do you have a "recipe" for your vinegar spray? I would love to try this method on my next cheese. Thanks.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on July 08, 2010, 05:16:31 PM
I use a quart spray bottle. I add 1 tablespoon of CaCl2 solution and 2 tablespoons of pickling salt then fill the rest with around 25% distilled water and 75% white vinegar. I spray both the netting or cheesecloth and the cheese itself.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on September 15, 2010, 04:18:03 AM
It has been a little over two months so I sliced a little off one of the small wheels to sample for breakfast. I resealed the rest for continued aging.

Not bad. No bitterness or crumbliness! Hooray!  :D  Salt level is good. Tastes a little like cheddar. I am pleased.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: DeejayDebi on September 16, 2010, 01:07:02 AM
Well in spite of it troblesome beginings it look like a nice cheese. Good job hon!
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: Boofer on September 16, 2010, 07:46:38 AM
Thanks, Debi. I'll do better next time around with this style. Learned a lot. That's important too.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack")
Post by: DeejayDebi on September 18, 2010, 05:33:47 AM
Everyday is a chance for an new learning experince. Grab it with gusto!
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: Spoons on November 15, 2013, 04:50:31 PM
I wish I had found this post BEFORE last night's incident.

Last night I made a Caerphilly (not cheddared). Room temp was 24C and the final press was 5.64PSI. The recipe calls for "medium" pressing, whatever that means. Maybe I pressed too hard.

I'll try Sailor's spray next time.

Since this is an old thread, has anyone adjusted well to Kadova moulds where this never happens?
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: linuxboy on November 15, 2013, 05:09:56 PM
Flip early, flip often. After the pH drops a bit (after hour in press), won't be an issue.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: Spoons on November 15, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
Here's what I'll try then;

My pressing schedule was:
Ambient temp: 24C
Press 1: 15 minutes @ 1.88 PSI
Press 2: 15 minutes @ 3.10 PSI
Press 3: 5.5 hours (until PH 5.13) @ 5.64 PSI
Results: curd fused to netting

I'll do the same recipe later this week and try:
Ambient temp : same
Press 1: 15 minutes @ 1.88 PSI
Press 2: 15 minutes @ 3.10 PSI
Press 3: 30 minutes @ 5.13 PSI
Press 4: 30 minutes @ 5.13 PSI
Press 5: 1 hour @ 5.13 PSI
Press 6: until desired PH @ 5.13 PSI

This should be ok without using the salt/vinegar spray?

Thanks for the tip, LB!
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: linuxboy on November 15, 2013, 05:53:02 PM
Depending on how your curds look (moisture level at press), you may want to lower the PSI for first hour.  I like to cook pretty dry and fuse high PSI for first 10 mins to get a good press (like you do in alpines), and then keep PSI more moderate. The curds must be cooked completely though. Else, you get whey trapped in the curd and it will keep seeping and give you flavor issues later on.
Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: Spoons on November 17, 2013, 07:15:15 AM
I made another Caerphilly tonight. I pressed and flipped 6 times at much lower PSI. First few were bellow 1 PSI working the way up to 2.5 PSI.

The bad news is the cheese stuck to the netting once again, but not as much. Next time, I'll dunk the netting and then the cheese in my brine for a few seconds right before the final "overnight" press. Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

This time though, I managed to salvage the cheese surface; i rinsed and scrubbed (no soap, just tap water) the netting until all the stuck cheese came off. I flipped the damaged cheese and pressed it at 2.5 PSI for 1 hour.

I'm determined to get around this. Getting better  :)

Title: Re: Pressing Curds - Sticking to Net & Cloth Discussion (Starts With "The dark side of Monterey Jack
Post by: Geodyne on November 17, 2013, 08:16:38 AM
It's looking good, Spoons. Good save!