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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Boofer on May 29, 2013, 01:50:50 AM

Title: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on May 29, 2013, 01:50:50 AM
Definition of N'EST-CE PAS?
: isn't it so?

Origin of N'EST-CE PAS?
French
==================================================
Chasing the success of my first effort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11164.0.html) with this cheese, I decided to jump right in and repeat it.

The song remains the same...without the added cream.

This was made on Sunday. Today it seems almost finished shedding its excess whey. It is in its minicave in the cave which has been reset to 57F. The minicave lid has been cracked slightly to allow the exit of the excess humidity. In the the next day or so I will salt the cheeses which should expel additional whey.

The brick mould was filled to the top with curd and I am still hoping that the height of the cheeses is further diminished, although that didn't seem to be a big problem with the first effort.

This is expected to take 8 weeks to reach optimum ripeness.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on May 29, 2013, 10:24:52 PM
Those look nice.  Looking forward to see how this goes.  Hmmm, could you insert a couple of layers of needle point matting, with maybe something solid between them, as a vertical wall in your mould so that you don't need to cut the final cheese when they come out?  Sort of a duplex mould?  I'm only thinking this because I recall some discussions about the ripening of the cut edge being less than the others. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on May 29, 2013, 11:22:31 PM
Those look nice.  Looking forward to see how this goes.  Hmmm, could you insert a couple of layers of needle point matting, with maybe something solid between them, as a vertical wall in your mould so that you don't need to cut the final cheese when they come out?  Sort of a duplex mould?  I'm only thinking this because I recall some discussions about the ripening of the cut edge being less than the others. 

- Jeff
Yeah, this has worked out okay in several of my makes, but today I decided I needed a better solution and took the plunge. Stop the madness! Along with a couple replacement cultures I grabbed two Taleggio moulds. They should improve my desire for square cheeses immensely. The brick mould will be relegated to Esrom, Tilsit, or whatever else comes along that may need to be a brick shape.

Good idea of yours though, Jeff. Thanks for that.

This afternoon, a little bit ago, I flipped these cheeses. Already I see a bit of Geo coming out. Good stuff. The cut side in the #1 make didn't seem to be a problem. I don't foresee it being a problem here either.

The wife will probably go into a melt-down when she hears I bought the two new moulds. ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Tiarella on May 29, 2013, 11:47:36 PM

I bought the two new moulds. ::)

-Boofer-

Need photos of the new molds please.....!   ???  can't imagine them.    But you'd love the Tellagio (sp?) mold with divider I got from Yoav.  Is that what you got?
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on June 06, 2013, 01:14:39 PM
Here's an updated link which shows the new Taleggio mould (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9368.msg67308.html#msg67308).

I had seen the dimensions of the Taleggio mould, but somehow I had this vision that it would produce a similarly-dimensioned cheese as the brick mould. Viewing them side by side, it is quite obvious that I was having an extreme day dream. :o

The spreadsheet gives me the volume of curds that the mould will accept, which is larger than the brick mould, but I don't know what the optimum volume would be to create a properly thick Taleggio. Anyone done this before with this mould? The brick filled to the brim will settle curd to a little thicker cheese than the style seems to demand.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on June 06, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
Hmmm, my gut instinct is to suggest that the same height of curds will compress to the same thickness.  If you want a slightly thinner cheese, base the height on 90% of the brick's height.  You can then calculate the volume of curds that would hold, and use that to calculate how much milk to used based upon your make experience with the brick (i.e. your current makes fill the brick, and you can work out the brick's volume, etc).

- Jeff

P.S.  My guts have been wrong before, and believe me, when they are it is not pretty.
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on June 06, 2013, 11:38:16 PM
My guts have been wrong before, and believe me, when they are it is not pretty.
Boy, you've got some guts. :P

If I were to use the same recipe and volume of milk that I have been using with the brick mould, I believe that would give me 81% in the Taleggio mould. That might be acceptable. I guess the only true test is to follow that logic and make the cheese. Once done, it can be tweaked up or down as required.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on June 07, 2013, 12:32:42 AM
Ok, 81% would suggest, if I'm right in my assumptions, that you should end up with a cheese that is roughly 4/5ths the height of what you're currently getting.  Will be interesting to see if that's the case.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on June 29, 2013, 01:44:50 PM
Seems like this is at the midway point. The rind has been taking an interesting turn. The core appears still fairly firm when pressing lightly on the middle.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on June 29, 2013, 06:20:57 PM
Seems like its got a wire frame!  Interesting development.  Out of curiosity, how is the thickness relative to your previous makes?  Were our calculations anywhere near accurate (One of the curiosities of the English language is in the proper use of the possessive pronoun with respect to predicted outcomes; in the unknown result case, it is proper to use "our", as in "our calculations", in the case of a known result of high accuracy, it is proper to use "my", and in the known result of being wildly off the mark, the term is "yours", this is just how English works! :) )

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 01, 2013, 01:14:57 PM
Don't confuse this with a cheese that could be done in the Taleggio mould. The form factor, quantity of milk (except for the cream), and thickness are identical to the previous make.

With reference to the possessive pronoun use of "our", my understanding is a shared experience. ;)

When I wiped/rubbed these cheeses and the Saint Paulins (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg89575.html#msg89575) this morning the "wire frame" has become exaggerated. I'd say shrinkage is a factor.

Tomorrow is week five. Three more weeks to go before cutting. I hope it holds up and doesn't implode during that time. ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on July 01, 2013, 06:28:16 PM
Doh!  Of course, this is from the brick mould make that you started with!  Sigh.  Not enough coffee before posting.  There's never enough coffee! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Spellogue on July 02, 2013, 04:59:47 AM
I'm gearing up to christen my new taleggio mold from Yoav and this may be just the right make.  I've been dreaming about making something like petite pont l'eveque for some time now.  (I say "something like" because I'll use goat's milk). Thanks so much for posting your notes in these two threads, Boofer.  I offer you a cheese for such generous effort.  You are a gentleman and a scholar. 

And a cheese to you too, Yoav.  I'll stick to the ARN on my first try, as tempted as I am to bust into that new packet of PLA.

I aspire to such fine cheese as you both have depicted here.
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 02, 2013, 01:34:27 PM
Thanks for the cheese, Mike. I will interested in your first Taleggio-moulded cheese.

You're very generous with your compliments about my rendition of this cheese style but I'd say it wouldn't be appropriate for the Taleggio mould. Not enough milk...too few curds. Instead, I'd like to suggest you christen your new mould with Jim Wallace's Taleggio recipe (http://www.cheesemaking.com/Taleggio.html). Having recently acquired Taleggio moulds myself, that will be my recipe of choice for the first cheese out of the gate. It uses a bit more milk than this make.

I'm also curious how the ARN works out for you. I've made a number of cheeses with PLA and they've turned out fairly well, but I acquired some ARN recently and I have yet to use it in anything.

This is a small cheese compared to what the Taleggio mould will produce. Man, now that I'm typing this and pondering the poor Taleggio mould out in the garage with nothing for it to do...and all that rich summer milk.... Nope, must be patient.:(  Tick, tick, tick....

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Spellogue on July 02, 2013, 07:27:18 PM
What?  No room for a taleggio I the cave network, Boofer?

I'm rarely doing larger than a 2 gallon make now until we get all the kids weaned.  I was thinking about filling just two of the 4 divider spaces in the taleggio mold, but that might be a dicey move.  I might try a two quadrant fill for the first time with a more flexible cheese.  I was inspired by Jeff's recent posts to make feta again.  Perhaps that will be a better subject cheese for the partial fill experiment.

I've liked the cheeses I made with ARN, but the results I got were a bit variable because of the different ripening conditions I used. I'm sure. I keep learning.  I didn't realize there was geo in the ARN blend until just recently.  When I first started making more classic style cheeses I ordered "b. linens" and ARN is what I came in the order.  The b.l strains are supposed to be ivory to orange, but I've obtained more brown and burnt orange shades when using it.  Flavor and aroma were good, but I don't have anything to compare it to since it's the only b.l. source I've used up to now.  I'm holding off on opening my new packet of PLA.

I have a recent 1 gallon make that I vat innoculated with 1/16 tsp ARN.  I'm about to start washing it this week.  I'm wondering if it is still viable as I had it stored next to some white mold packets that went clumpy on me.  I'm thinking he geo in the blend might be dead, but I still have hopes for the b.l.  It's pretty tenacious stuff.  Should be interesting to see what develops.
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 12, 2013, 02:07:03 PM
Yesterday when I had the cheeses out for their airing I decided to cut one open. It's at the 6.5 week point and my target was for 8 weeks just like the first effort, but my curiosity would not be held back.  :-\

I had tried to work through some slip-skin moments and that's pretty obvious from the wrinkly rind and the folds & creases. The paste near the rind is gooey which also reflects a slip-skin condition. The core is still fairly firm. It was just out of the cave so it was still chilled when I tasted it. Slightly tangy, slightly salty...with an earthy character, especially from the rind. Interesting and not altogether disagreeable. :P

I tasted it a couple hours later after it had warmed to room temperature...better. I sliced it (very soft, so rather difficult to really slice) and spread it on some sourdough bread which was then toasted in the toaster oven. It melted quite readily under the heat of the oven. This cheese would lend a lot of character to a tartiflette or other cooked or baked dish.

I wrapped up the rest of the cheese to age a little longer in cheese paper under cooler conditions. The cheese is fairly decent right now, but might benefit from ripening a little longer. It isn't as rich as the first effort since it didn't receive the added cream. I think the first effort was more correct, but the added cream level should be reduced.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on July 12, 2013, 08:11:31 PM
That's looking pretty good Boofer.  The solid centre to be expected as there's still a week and a half to go to EDT (estimated done time).  I suspect it will be gooey to the core by 8 or 9 weeks.  So, for your next make, would you add 1/2 the amount of cream you did the first time?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 13, 2013, 04:39:26 PM
Yeah, I think half the cream would be just about ideal. I'll probably hold off on a third effort any time soon though  because there are other cheeses in the queue.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Spellogue on July 15, 2013, 04:02:57 AM
From other photos I've seen I'd always thought that Pont l'Eveque was a PC and b.l. ripened cheese.  I still wonder if such an attempt might be successful, but now I know the rind is geo based.  I see they Yoav suggests just the ARN alone, but would you continue with the addition of geo 13 Boofer, or might you tweak the recipe by using 15 or 17?  I think I'll need the Geo boost as I fear my ARN blend no longer carries a viable geo strain.

Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: FRANCOIS on July 15, 2013, 04:10:53 AM
You certainly could do a PC and BL rind, it would be very much like a traditional farmhouse brie.  Just leave it alone and let it grow.

Or you could replace the PC with GEO (I prefer 17 or 13) and wash it.
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Spellogue on July 15, 2013, 06:34:40 AM
Mmmmm.   Thanks Francois.  Perhaps in the next week or two I'll try one of each, but with goat's milk.  The sort of version one might find in Poitou, no?  I've got quite a few bloomies going now, but I'd also like to add something like Boofer has acheived here. 
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 16, 2013, 01:45:05 PM
I see they Yoav suggests just the ARN alone, but would you continue with the addition of geo 13 Boofer, or might you tweak the recipe by using 15 or 17?  I think I'll need the Geo boost as I fear my ARN blend no longer carries a viable geo strain.
I still am fairly well off the mark for this style. My first effort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11164.msg87940.html#msg87940) was closer, but still didn't achieve the texture and character of the target cheese I tasted.

When next I attempt this style I'll use my recently-acquired ARN along with half the cream and I'll use my Taleggio mould. I would expect the results to be much different.

Why do you believe that the Geo in your ARN has retired? Perhaps just not the environment that makes it happy. You can see I had some difficulty with the Geo and linens in this make. Ahh, affinage, you're a cruel mistress. :(

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Spellogue on July 16, 2013, 06:43:49 PM
Last season and over the winter I stored my cultures and mold packets in the refrigerator, no vacuum pack.  I should've known better. When I tapped into my PC and Geo stash this spring I couldn't get a cheese to bloom if my life depended on it.  They'd even clumped a bit from moisture issues.  New stock I recieved last month is working and I'm now storing them in a sealed mason jar in the freezer, bringing to room temp before opening.  The ARN was stored all winter in the same fashion as my dead PC and Geo 17, so I'm concerned that the geo in the blend might also be kaput. It never went clumpy on me though.

I'm two weeks into developing a schmier on my first washed rind of the season with brine I innoculated with that ARN.  I'm confident the b.l. is good because of the early stage  ivory-grey shade that's taking hold.  The same color resulted from ARN for me before.  The wild b.l. that turns up on my cheeses on occassion tends to be reddish-orange from the get go.  Perhaps the yeasts in it are still good too.  Time will tell if the geo might still be viable. 

Shouldn't usually need to use extra geo with ARN, but I do think I compromised my blend due to bad storage.  the only isolated geo I have right now is Geo 13.
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 21, 2013, 07:28:23 PM
A couple days ago I enjoyed a wedge of this latest make. It has been ripening in the cheese wrap inside the colder refrigerator. Upon opening the cellophane wrap, the ripened cheese adheres to the wrap and is gooey and taffy-like. This is a characteristic that I enjoy. There is still some disparity between this and a commercial example, but it's closer.

The inner core has all but disappeared and presents no obstacle to spreading this delightful cheese on sourdough bread. The taste is mild. The odor that emanates from the cheese is strong but not off-putting. No obvious ammoniation. The rind is soft, moist, and not disagreeable.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: JeffHamm on July 25, 2013, 07:00:07 PM
A cheese to that great looking result.  Very nice.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Pont l'Évêque...n'est–ce pas? (#2)
Post by: Boofer on July 26, 2013, 01:48:52 PM
Thanks, Jeff.

I started a new thread (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11698.0.html) asking for ideas for a 4 gallon make this weekend.

Any suggestions? You're a cheese repeater...meaning that you've been over the same style, in several cases, multiple times. You've honed recipes and techniques to a fine point.

-Boofer-