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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Likesspace on January 20, 2009, 03:13:50 AM
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I don't know if you all remember this cheese, but it was my first experience moving to an eight inch mold.
I had gotten so used to turning out nice looking wheels that this was a major bummer when it came out full of cracks and fissures, due to underpressing the curd.
Thanks to the work that Carter and Wayne have done I finally accepted that pressing weight MUST go up as the size of the wheel goes up. This has made a huge difference in the results I have gotten.
When this cheese first came out of the brine I was ready to throw it in the trash. It was so ugly that it hurt me to look at it and I was sure that mold would be a major issue when the swiss entered the sweating stage. Well long story short, I was not disappointed concerning this fact because I fought mold the entire way.
The mold (of course) formed in the fissures so no amount of wiping with brine or vinegar would get rid of it. I had to literally carve this wheel up, cutting out the moldy places when they appeared.
In many places I had 1/4" deep pock marks on the surface of this cheese and I have to say that it is without a doubt the ugliest wheel I've ever produced.
Now, having said all of that I will say this......
I am so happy that I did not give up on this cheese.
Tonight finished the three week sweating stage of the cheese and since it was so ugly I was not going to waste time trying to age it any further.
I instead decided to cut it into wedges......trim off the rind and give it a try. Well folks, this cheese turned out to be an excellent example of swiss.
For the first time I did form some eyes in the cheese (although very small) and the texture and taste are pretty much perfect. After one small slice my wife pronounced it the best cheese that I've ever made.
It has a nice swiss cheese taste and a perfect texture (nice and elastic and quite moist).
Of course it does not have a really strong swiss flavor since it is so young, but it gives me high hopes for the two month old swiss I have in the cave.
Anyway, here are a couple of pics of the swiss after being cut and trimmed.
Please let me know what you think.
Dave
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Aside from the small holes it does look like swiss. Taste is afterall, all that is important. We must remember experience is the key to making good cheese. So I don't go all over the place, I stick to a handful of types, trying to perfect these. Sounds as though you continually turn out swiss which is good.
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I am certainly not disputing what you've found, but I'm still at a loss as to the need for pressing.
Watching the various videos, plus the photos taken on factory sites, I note that pressing does not seem to be obvious when making original cheeses.
To date I've watched Stilton, Parmesan, Grana Padarma, Swiss and none stress or talk of pressing. In fact Stilton stress it is never pressed. I am wondering if it is associated with the sheer size of professional wheels, or could it be more to do with the curd preparation?
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All the videos I've seen show pressing. Stilton is not a hard cheese BTW. You know most videos you find are not instructional but just informative. They leave a lot out. Trust me you have to press cheeses.
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Dave I am surprised at the amount of eyes. Is that normal or do some join up as they get bigger? Never made a swiss, but that looks interesting. Might have to give one a go now.
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Yes, they start as little colonys and then merge.
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Tea,
I'll defer to Carter's statement on the eyes. This is the first swiss I've made where there was anything more than very minor eye formation.
Now I wish I would have aged this one longer to see if it did form larger eyes and so that the taste would have gotten more mature. I was just positive that it was a lost cause so I cut it way too early.
As for making swiss, the most important part is the recipe you use. I tried three recipes before I found one that always seems to turn out good results. The key is in limiting acid production (only a 10 minute ripening stage) and foreworking the curd. If these two procedures are followed closely I think it would be hard not to turn out at least a good edible cheese.
If you are interested in using the recipe I use I can post a link. It's from an E-how article and it really is the best I've found, by far.
Dave
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Tea..
After having give this a little more thought, I decided to post this follow up.....
I've spoken with quite a few home swiss makers and none of us have been able to form large eyes in our wheels.
We have discussed this to the point of weariness (since we ALL want to form the eyes you see in store bought cheese), but none of us have have been successful.
I honestly think that the problem lies in the size of the wheel we are limited to making.
If you're not a Carter (you know, one that spends a couple of hours in the shop and builds a new enormous press, capable of putting 35,000 lbs. of pressure on a cheese), we simply aren't capable of turning out a 100 lb. wheel of cheese like the professionals do.
From what I understand, most commercial swiss cheese is cut out of a much larger wheel.
For instance you might buy a 5 lb. wheel of baby swiss but that was more than likely cut out of a 50 - 100 lb. original wheel....hence the lack of a rind on the wheel you purchased.
I honestly don't know if it's possible to form large eyes in a small wheel.
By far the best example of barrelling is on the little wheel of swiss that Wayne has in his cave. Honestly I can't wait until he cracks it open to see what type of eye formation he has.
I have sweated some of my swiss attempts for up to a month but after the three week mark I've not noticed any extra swelling of the cheese.
It could be that if I left it longer, I would see the numerous small wheels consolidate. That might be something that I try with this new swiss.
Wayne....if you are reading this, when do you plan on opening the "round" swiss I've seen in your past posts?
I'd really like to see an interior example of a swiss that has this much swelling.
Also, is there anything special you did to get the great swelling?
My flavor and texture are both there....now I need to work on eye formation.
Dave
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Ok - as a newby - all I can say is "WOW - that cheese looks great to me!" and if it tastes great too... CONGRATS!! Thanks for the fun updates on the "holey-ness" - fascinating. I have SOOOO much to learn.
Thanks for sharing the pics.
Jill
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Jill,
Thanks for the compliment. I do appreciate it.
As for cheesemaking, it's really all about practice.
Believe me, I've turned out my share of unsavory cheeses but even the bad ones are edible.
The key is to make as much cheese as you have time for and like Carter said earlier....focus on one or two varieties until you are satisfied with the end result.
With each batch you make you will see areas in which you can improve.
Even the smallest changes can have drastic results and it's a craft that you can (and will) continually improve upon.
For instance I've been making cheese for three years and just recently found that pressing weight is not as simple as it always seemed.
Thanks to information found on this forum I've now found a way to greatly improve my success.
Good luck in your cheese making and believe me, the knowledge will come. At times it comes in such large amounts that it can seem overwhelming. :)
Dave
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Jill, I like your handle (jillyphish) are you a Phish fan, the band that is.
Anyway, basically since you're introducing bacteria into the entire cheese of course you're going to find numerous holes. It's not until they get bigger and merge that you have huge eye formation. Or if you have colonies that are grouped from the beginning. Hey as long as the taste is there then everything else is aesthetics.
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Just a quick reply - not to take away from the "swiss" details...
While I do enjoy Phish... the nickname originated when I had time and money for scuba diving... "jellyfish"... "jillyphish" (with some influence from Phish the band).
Now I have an 11 year old daughter and two dogs... which replaced any time and money that I had back then! HA... but am happy with the exchange. I'm hoping to someday do some diving again - but not now.
I'll keep reading and absorbing everyone's blogs. Need to find my next easy recipe. I'll keep you posted.
Jillyphish
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Jill, just FYI, but I now have 25 Cheese Making Recipes (http://cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipes.htm) on the website :).
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Jill, me too when I was younger I used to dive down in Southern Califorina and other places, I miss it but have other things to occupy my time.
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I have a question. Has anyone tried using the propionibacteria used for Swiss and then freezing the whey or using it the next day in the next batch? I have tried it with other cheeses with great success and since they say it is not culturable.............I think I beg to differ. How else could they do it from season to season in the Alps? I have yet to try Swiss but I am interested in comment. In addition, from what I have read, a lot depends upon the temp at different stages of development. Namely cold to warm and then back to cold. Then storage at cold until the eyes meld together. Let me know.
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I read in a book recently that you can not get big eyes in small swiss cheeses because the percentage of "holes" form is so small that most are lost before they have time to develop.
From Cheese Problems Solved
The saturation concentration of carbon dioxide in Emmental is around
34mmol kgÿ1 and depends on pH and temperature of the cheese body. At 10 ëC, 50% more carbon dioxide is soluble than at 20 ëC; at a pH of 4.8 twice as much CO2 is soluble than at pH 5.2. The high pH of Swiss-type cheeses and the ripening step in the warm room are therefore two important factors that are responsible for a lower solubility of CO2 and consequently for better eye development.
A soft and elastic texture is crucial for a regular eye formation. This is why
the technology of Emmental cheese production is aimed at the achievement of optimum conditions not only for propionic acid fermentation, but also for the development of a soft and elastic texture. Furthermore, the rind is also essential for eye formation. Brining of the cheeses for 2±3 days and the rather low relative humidity in the ripening room (70±80%) lead to a firm and dry rind [43], which reduces the loss of CO2. The brining and the low relative humidity of the ripening room results in a loss of water from the rind and, consequently, to a compact protein network at the surface of the cheese, which acts as a barrier for gas diffusion. If the rind is too soft and too porous, the brine can be supplemented with calcium, which leads to a stronger protein matrix. On the other hand, if the rind is too rigid, the calcium available in the brine can be eliminated by precipitation. Thus the porosity of the rind can be controlled by adding or removing calcium.
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I have a question. Has anyone tried using the propionibacteria used for Swiss and then freezing the whey or using it the next day in the next batch? I have tried it with other cheeses with great success and since they say it is not culturable.............I think I beg to differ. How else could they do it from season to season in the Alps? I have yet to try Swiss but I am interested in comment. In addition, from what I have read, a lot depends upon the temp at different stages of development. Namely cold to warm and then back to cold. Then storage at cold until the eyes meld together. Let me know.
propionic bacteria is indigenous to the alps. it's not something the cheesemakers do on purpose. if you want to see all sorts of movies on authentic swiss making i would use the interweb and, my friend, the google. be sure and use "cheese" in multiple languages to get the best hits.
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Your cheese is beautiful. Great job.
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Debi....
Thanks for the above post.
I've always gotten a nice elastic texture with my swiss but as yet I have NOT gotten a nice firm rind. That might just possibly be the problem area for me.
The best swelling cheese I've made to date eventually just...deflated, overnight on me. I had no idea why this would happen but it could have been that the Co2 escaped from the surface of the cheese.
On my next attempt I will try to get a good rind formed before moving the cheese into the sweating stage. You might have just given me the missing variable to making a good swiss.
I just can't accept the premise that nice eyes can't be formed in a small wheel. I might eventually be forced to accept this fact but right now I am not even close to that point. :)
Thanks again. That's why I love this forum. So many people working on the same problem...making a perfect cheese.
Dave
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I hope it works for you I think I posted that just about the time of your hiatus.
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Hey Dave,
I ran across a Danlac recipe:
http://www.danlac.com/news/making-swiss-cheese-recipe (http://www.danlac.com/news/making-swiss-cheese-recipe)
and here's what they say:
Possibilities to enhance eye formation:
* higher inoculation amount of propionic acid bacteria
* higher scalding temperature up to 40 - 41 °C
* shorter salting time with a weaker salt concentration
* higher pH after salting: not under pH 5.30 - 5.40
* shorter ripening time in cool storage, with a higher temperature, e.g. 7 days at 11 - 14 °C
* longer ripening time in warm storage, e.g. 5 - 6 weeks at 22 - 24 °C
What if you tried scalding at a higher temp? The higher temp would help with curd knitting, and maybe that would eliminate the multiple nucleation sites so that the holes would be larger?
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Danlac also says: "packaging in special foil for large eye formation cheese, or coating".
What kind of "special foil"?
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that's ringing a vague bell. one of the culture manufacturers (hansen?) makes an eye formation "system" that includes a wrap to keep in the gas.
nice eyes can be formed in a small wheel. we make swiss in 10kg blocks and the europeans thought we were crazy, they said good eyes couldn't be made in a wheel smaller than 80 kg. we have our own special sauce though, we manufacture our own propio. the 10kg block is only a few inches thick, you should be able to do it on a small wheel.
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Wouldn't vacuum bagging do the same things as a "wrap to keep the gas in"?
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Guys, thanks for the information.
Sailor when I read about the foil, my first thought was the same as yours. I wonder if there is any reason that vacuum packing wouldn't work in the same way?
I might just have to give this a try.
After three years of fighting this problem I'm willing to try just about anything.
Dave
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Some of the cheeses I bought in Vermont a few years back had a foil wrap with an almost waxed freezer paper interior.
I've wondered about vac packing soon after brining but leaving the out of the cave for a few weeks.
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Debi,
There's no doubt that it would have to be left out of the cave during the sweating period. I would also think that it would have to be vac'd loosely so that the cheese would have room to swell.
I'm really thinking that this might be worth a try. Along with pressing under the whey, creating a nice rind and vacuum packing I now have renewed hopes for a successful swiss.
Thanks for the ideas everyone!
Dave
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"propionic bacteria is indigenous to the alps"
It is also native to my farm. I did figure out how to exclude it - by shutting the kitchen windows while I make cheese. Conversely, if I put the pot, uncovered, near the window while doing the stir, I frequently (mostly in June) can get a nice, very sweet-tasting swiss, but with many small eyes. (Perhaps this is because my cheeses are usually around 12 oz.) This means it's floating around in the air on my farm in June. But what's the source? ???
Thanks, linuxboy for that eye-formation list. That may be just what I'm looking for to make this "wild thing" make the right kind of eyes.
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We vacuum pack it. We make something like 10 tonnes an hour with this method. Pe the Naitonal Dairy Council:
Rindless Swiss cheese in blocks is an American innovation. The milk is set, and the curd cut and cooked as described above for traditional Swiss cheese. In rindless Swiss cheese, the curd and whey are pumped into a forming tank, where the curd settles and pressure is applied with press plates before the whey is removed. After the whey is drained off, the curd is pressed overnight, then cut into blocks of the desired size (usually 80 to 100 pounds). The blocks of cheese are salted in brine similar to traditional wheels of Swiss cheese, usually from 1 to 3 days. The surface of the cheese is dried at 50° to 55°F for 5 to 10 days.
The cheese is then wrapped in plastic film and placed in a box under pressure in a cold room (50° to 55°F) for 6 to 10 days to prepare the cheese for eye formation. Thereafter, it is transferred to a warm room maintained at 70° to 76°F, the optimum growth temperature for Propionibacterium shermanii . During this principal ripening period, propionic acid fermentation occurs. Proprionibacterium shermanii and related organisms convert lactic acid and lactates to propionic and acetic acids and carbon dioxide. The propionic acid contributes to the characteristic sweet flavor and the carbon dioxide collects to form holes of eyes. The development of eyes is completed in 3 to 4 weeks. The cheese is then returned to a cold (35° to 40°F) curing room for 3 to 9 months or longer for slower ripening and more flavor development. Most of the Swiss cheese manufactured in the United States is marketed after ripening for 3 to 4 months.
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10 tons an hour? Good Lord!
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The surface of the cheese is dried at 50° to 55°F for 5 to 10 days... The cheese is then wrapped in plastic film and placed in a box under pressure in a cold room... It is transferred to a warm room maintained at 70° to 76°F... The development of eyes is completed in 3 to 4 weeks. The cheese is then returned to a cold (35° to 40°F) curing room...
Does "wrapped in plastic film" mean vaccum bagging? Please explain "box under pressure". So you actually keep it at room temp for 3 to 4 weeks? What if the cheese starts to sweat? The 35F to 40F is pretty much normal refrigerator temperature. I keep my cave about 55F. Should we age Swiss types in the refrigerator instead of our caves?
Thanks again for your wonderful insight.
10 TONS.......... WOW.
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The description is from the US Dairy Council website, it's not our method. We make two kinds of swiss, wheels and blocks. The blocks are vacuum packed and held at high temp for a few weeks for eye formation (25C). Sweating is not an issue. For the wheels we dry after brining, paint them and then give them a few weeks at temp (25C), after that they are vacuum packed and chilled. It is industry norm to store cheese at either 2 or 7C. 2 just takes longer to age.
Keep in mind these are pretty big volumes and not exactly what most people would consider an artisan cheese.
NZ has some of the largest cheese plants in the world. Lichfield, a mainly cheddar plant, is the largest in the southern hemisphere. The mozz plant does 9000 tons per year.
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I may be having a DUH moment but hon what do you "paint" the cheese with?
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PVA cheese coating. Most places sell it for coating swiss.
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Francois what are your thought on this PVC coating. I have coated a number of cheeses in this and then waxed and have found that it sticks to the cheese. The wax will peel off, but not the coating. Personally I have given up using it as it seemed like more hassle than it was worth.
I thought I has a photo showing the coating sticking, but I can't find it.
Debi here is one showing a cheese half coated.
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PVA is edible (food-grade PVA). It's not usually removed. Other industries use it, too. For example, sometimes fruit is coated with PVA, or a PVA-alcohol-water solution to prevent dehydration and to improve glossy appearance. Cheese PVA usually has a small amount of Nat and/or sorbate used as a preservative. PVA is gas-permeable so it shouldn't affect affinage or final cheese taste and texture.
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I bought a jar of that from Glengarry awhile back but I haven't tried it. Margaret recommended it for a pre-wax coating. She said she uses it on every cheese before she waxes.
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I'm glad you pointed out that there is preservative in it. In my experience it's good for about 4-6 weeks before it needs a recoating or over waxing. Natamycin degrades over that period and the coating becomes susceptible to mold growth. I have used it in the past, personally, but not in a long time. I have more fun with natural rinds. We use it commercially at the plant to protect swiss types during high temp eye formation.
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Does it come off cleanly. That had been my concern and why I haven't tried it yet.
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Nope, it sure doesn't come off. You have to cut it off.
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Yeah, PVA is basically glue. I think Elmer's white glue is PVA, or something pretty close.
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Yep, it has to be cut off, and personally I don't think it is a good look, all this white stuff sticking to the cheese. It is supposed to help the waz adhere better to the cheese.
I too am prefering natural rinds, and have been trying different finishes, so I don't have to use the stuff.
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Glad didn't try it. I would have been very upset if it gunked up my cheese. The teny tiny little flecks from the wax made me crazy enough - yuck! I'll stick to natural rinds and vac paks.