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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Salilah on March 03, 2013, 05:48:58 AM

Title: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 03, 2013, 05:48:58 AM
I'm trying my first Chabichou - used the lactic set bloomy rind cheese recipe in Caldwell
2L goat milk - FD for flavour - 72F (well actually probably 76F) then added 3 drops rennet in water (3 rather than 2 in the recipe as I think my rennet is a bit weak / out of date)
24 hours at around 72F and it did get to pH 4.6!  Good appearance of curd, and lots whey on top - coming away from sides of pan
However:
When I started to ladle into moulds, it was apparent that the curd really wasn't set at all!  Very runny / wet and leaking badly from the moulds - lots of white small solids dripping out back into the whey

I plan to try ricotta from the rich whey - a couple questions though
a) should it be this wet / not set?  I'll leave it to drain (and I have a fair bit of "cheese" from the 2L milk
b) is my rennet too weak?  It is past the use-by date, so I will get a new one - just wondered if that was the issue

thanks
Sali
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 08, 2013, 08:52:10 AM
Sadly no responses? 

I persevered with the original 2 cheeses - very soggy, unmoulded after about 24h, somewhat falling apart!
I used muslin on top and bottom to turn

After another 12h or so drying, I sprayed the top with the Chabichou slurry (after salting); then repeated for the other side
Left them in the cool spare bedroom in plastic tubs for 3 days (I work away from home)
Came back - although the tub was very wet and the bottom of the cheese (on muslin) still wet, the top of each cheese had the wiggly rind starting!! <grin>
Very excited!
Drained them; turned; removed the muslin and sprayed what was the bottom with the slurry again - top back on tub and still in the spare bedroom (around 11C?)

I decided to try again this weekend - with new rennet - same recipe, same approach, but 3 drops (not 2) of the new rennet - 24 hours at around 72F
The top was more set, but the underneath still very soggy - I decided to fill little moulds with the set stuff, and am draining the more soggy curdy/wet liquid through muslin and a sieve to try to get rid of some of the whey earlier...

Slurry is still in the fridge, so I plan to use it again (think it keeps around 2 weeks?)
onward and upwards :-)
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: george (MaryJ) on March 09, 2013, 06:06:23 AM
I know nothing about this cheese, but it almost sounds like the rennet isn't fully distributed?  If the top is set but the bottom isn't ... could this be a possibility?  How are you stirring in the rennet?  Diluted in water, etc.?
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 11, 2013, 06:42:44 AM
Heya - thanks for the suggestion!!
I'm adding in about 50-75ml of water (for 2L of milk) - and mixing in by using a small sieve or a holed ladle (not sure of technical terms) for about a minute, up and down rather than round - so I'm hoping this isn't it?
My second lot of Chabichou was much the same - but I ladled half into the moulds and then strained the rest through a muslin square inside a very fine sieve and got a fair bit more curd - so maybe these ones will work out better?
They are salted, now (though I wish I knew a better way to salt the sides!!) and I've sprayed the slurry on the base, ready to turn again in an hour and spray (I work in London during the week so my cheesemaking has to happen from Friday to Monday!)
thanks again
S
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: margaretsmall on March 11, 2013, 05:02:22 PM
Could be the rennet, but it might be the milk. I've been making cheese with raw goats milk from Saanens, and it seems this is not the best milk, as they are bred for volume not density. My curds are definitely much more fragile than unhomogenised cows milk. It's not UHT milk by chance? Salting - OK to just salt the top and bottom, don't need to salt the sides as well.
Margaret
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 16, 2013, 02:49:05 PM
Thanks Margaret!
It's supposed (!) to be a semi-lactic semi-rennet set - I think to be honest it just is a soggy curd!  The draining for the last part in muslin worked pretty well...

the milk is supermarket goats - so it is pasteurised and homogenised - sadly, where I live in the UK I've been unable to find any farms who sell milk, and you can't buy raw milk other than at farm gates :-(
Definitely not UHT though...

Thanks re the salting - I'll see how it works - the first (very flat) cheeses have a wriggly rind, the second (taller smaller cheeses) have wriggly rind on the sides but not the top yet!  It's very exciting though, seeing the development <grin>

cheers
S
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: bbracken677 on March 16, 2013, 03:10:19 PM
The only goats milk I can find here in the markets is Ultra-pasteurized...that would produce results about what you are describing.
Perhaps yours is U/P?
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 16, 2013, 05:11:30 PM
Definitely not UHT though...

I have never seen a supermarket goats milk that wasn't UP. Milk does not have to be labeled as UHT or UP.
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 17, 2013, 02:25:23 AM
That's interesting - I thought it had to say!

This is the milk I used
http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-19537-Waitrose+full+cream+goats+milk (http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-19537-Waitrose+full+cream+goats+milk)

My third try - new rennet so used 2 drops for 2L milk - has been in the warm for 19 hours (recipe says 18-24) and no separation, not a clean cut, no whey on top - so it is worse!
It's got to 4.4 or so pH which is right I think

oh well, back to the camemberts next week!!
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 17, 2013, 11:04:39 AM
Things may be a little different in the UK, but in the states manufacturers are not required to label milk as UHT or UP. They often don't because of the negative connotations. You should contact the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Leandro's on March 20, 2013, 05:08:12 AM
Salilah , ive tried making lactic set cheeses from buffalo milk , goats milk , and cows milk , one thing for sure that every milk have different rennet dosage .  Goat has a more dosage than cow's and buffalo, ratio for goat and buffalo is 1:20 , BTW you can not have a clean break for a lactic curd, one thing more what is your dosage for cultures in a   2 liter pot?  I think i had the same problem when i first try the lactic set cheeses. Ive tried so many times with different recipe until i found the perfect recipe for different kinds of character for a lactic set cheeses. The best training i had is with the Buffalo Mozzarella, i can make high moisture to low moisture mozzarella , soft  texture to firm texture.  I had a friend who is a cheese connoisseur who taught me this " PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE" and i did !
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Tiarella on March 20, 2013, 06:52:10 AM
Salilah (beautiful name!), How did your batches turn out?  The squiggly rind you mention sounds like Geo growth out of control and I don't have enough experience to suggest what would dampen it's enthusiasm and let the PC take over and how to avoid slipskin on it.  Good luck!   :D
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 24, 2013, 08:06:00 AM
Hi Leandro's
For the 2L milk, I used a "smidgeon" plus a half of Flora Danica - it's the smallest measuring spoon I've got, and the only culture! <grin>
Thanks for the suggestion of trying mozzarella - I'll give that a go next time
I agree re practice - the third Chabichou I tried didn't set at all! (not even to yoghurt consistency - more like single cream) so that went down the sink, which was such a shame, but I reckoned it wouldn't even have worked in a muslin cloth!
I've decided to have a quick break and go back to Camembert (I'm only in the house at weekends, so it's one small 2L cheese batch a week at most) and will try the Chabichou (or maybe a cabecou) after Easter
Thanks lots for the support (now, I know I CAN get buffalo milk, but it's horrendously pricy!!  Think I might stick to cows milk for a bit)
Salilah
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 24, 2013, 08:12:26 AM
Hi Tiarella!
re the name - grin!  I'm Sali in real life (christened Sally but then met a german ordering system - it's a long story) - on one forum for learning, someone decided to christen me Salilah so I use it!

The Chabichou should have a squiggly rind - and yes, I reckon using Geo rather than PC and Geo will work - I tried missing both out when mixing the culture, and then spraying the surface with a mash of shop-bought Chabichou rind and water - worked out well in appearance, we are about to try it for the first time this lunchtime!!  I think it's worth pursuing, the shop-bought one I can only find in Waitrose and I think it's about £4 for a small cheese, so if I can make it, that would be great!
http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-151840-Waitrose+Chabichou+du+Poitou+Goats+Cheese+AOP,+France (http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-151840-Waitrose+Chabichou+du+Poitou+Goats+Cheese+AOP,+France)
sadly doesn't show a picture
this is one image:
http://asset.keldelice.com/attachments/photos/565721/original/chabichou-du-poitou2.jpg?1285185301 (http://asset.keldelice.com/attachments/photos/565721/original/chabichou-du-poitou2.jpg?1285185301)
and another one
http://www.lecoinfermier.com/ane-vert/10-50-thickbox/chabichou-du-poitou-aop.jpg (http://www.lecoinfermier.com/ane-vert/10-50-thickbox/chabichou-du-poitou-aop.jpg)

I'll post again when we've tried it! (and see if I can add my own photos)
I will try this one again (once we've eaten the 2 current flat ones and the four slightly taller ones in the fridge!!)

thanks everyone for your help and advice!!
cheers
Salilah
Title: Re: Chabichou - OOPS!
Post by: Salilah on March 24, 2013, 08:58:39 AM
OK we tried the first one today
It was done in a slightly large mould - and then flattened out a lot
Looked fine though - wriggly mould a bit

Took it out of the fridge and within 30mins, a little leak of white liquid
Oh-oh I thought
Yup - middle was completely liquid!!  a very very soggy cheese - well, to be honest, quite a tasty rind with a slug of dubious goat-flavoured milky liquid in the middle!!

We ate the rind - tasty, not too goaty, but made the shop-bought camembert taste dull in comparison (!)

So - please - what did I do wrong specifically relating to the completely liquid centre???  Any ideas really appreciated, as I've looked in my bible (Caldwell) and can't find much about this...

 :)
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Tiarella on March 24, 2013, 06:54:59 PM
I am ONLY guessing......I think you needed to move them to colder fridge (either wrapped or in an enclosed box) sooner, that the Geo got into some heavy out of control partying and went too far.  This is just a guess though.  Hoping someone with more experience will chime in with something better than a guess.  Sorry for the news.  You didn't want to smear the liquid-y center on bread or crackers?   ???

Thanks for the story of your name!  It is lovely.   :)
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on March 25, 2013, 06:29:56 AM
The rind (with small amounts of the runny middle) did go very nicely on my (also slightly dubious) rye loaf!!
Yes nice idea about fridge sooner - I left it out until the wrinkly rind developed.  I also made 4 smaller taller ones (a week later) so I'll see how those are

If this works, here's a pic of the cheese just before eating, after most of the liquid had been drained (it did start flat, and got flatter!) - and another showing it mostly eaten (!!)
It does have a bit of the wriggly skin <grin>
Title: Re: Chabichou - success!
Post by: Salilah on April 02, 2013, 02:08:25 PM
Well, family were here for Easter Sunday, so I thought they could try out the taller thinner Chabichou <evil grin>

It was very good!!
Left the rind behind on the plastic mat (thoroughly) - the cheese was smooth and soft, a bit runny under the rind but not too much, it was a rich taste, fresh and complex at the same time, with a pronounced tang of goat...
OH and I had the second one on Monday evening when family had gone - yummy! 

2 more in the fridge (oh, and a flat one)
so I need to make some more

Tried a different culture at the weekend (finally got my parcel - long story) so I'll report on that on another thread later
photos to follow!!
S
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Tomer1 on April 02, 2013, 03:49:33 PM
I think you should drain longer. sounds like too much moisture.
Colder ripening might also be a good idea at 8-10c.
Title: Re: Chabichou - not really set curds?
Post by: Salilah on April 03, 2013, 02:23:27 AM
Re temperature:
I start in the kitchen for draining - so up to about 36h - at around 20-23C
I then move into the lounge for around 24h at about 16C
(unmoulding some time in the above, salting)
Then move to the "baby barn" which is currently between 4C and 8C (the weather is cold here this year!) for a week or so, until the PC or whatever develops white furry covering (other mould)
Once furry, into the fridge at 4C
All the time, on a bit of plastic matting on something (to keep it off the base) in a plastic tub with a fitting lid (but not sealed down)

Hope this makes sense!