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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: Boofer on October 13, 2009, 07:16:30 AM
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I feel good about my second Gouda wheel (wish it was a traditional ball shape). It's from 4 gallons of whole milk. I started it on October 3rd, pressed it for 20 hours with 50 pounds (yes, I know, Sailor...should be to psi), whey-brined it for 7 hours, air-dried it in a mini-cave at room temperature until October 9th, wiped it with vinegar, and then vacuum-sealed it and put it in the cave at 55 degrees.
Within two days, it was showing whey at the edges inside the vacuum-sealed bag. My question is: should I leave it alone in the bag or take it out, dry it off, wipe with vinegar again and seal it again? :(
Edited to include a copy of Pav's Gouda treatise since his website was taken down.
-Boofer-
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My vote is as you said, take out, re-clean it and reseal it. I think Debi vac bags hers after a couple days drying at room temp and is OK. I find I always get moisture around the outside which in my experience leads to rot, so am trying natural rinds.
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Would you want that vinegar on the outside if you seal it? The seal is the rind, and I am not sure what the vinegar would do for you. Most people seal (aside from ease) to create a "no rind" cheese, thus more creamy meat to devour. I wouldn't treat the surface of the cheese before sealing, just wipe off any moisture, shove in the bag, seal.
I'll keep an eye on this progression: I just did a cheddar with around 3.5 gallons (3 whole milk, .5 Ultra-pasteurized whipping cream) that pressed for 60 hours at 50 and then 70 lbs. for around 40 hours. It sits in a cupboard so the last of the flies can't get to it. I'll wax and refrigerate sometime around Friday.
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The vinegar wipe is a final non-invitation to any lurking nasties. I wipe with the vinegar and then dry the wheel.
-Boofer-
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I see! Makes sense. I was worried about the vinegar moisture being inside the sealed bag.
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I wipe with a very light vinegar solution then pat dry before bagging.
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Following the guidelines presented here I pulled the wheel out of the bag and dried it off. I thought about just drying out the bag with paper towels and reusing it, tried it, but then just replaced the bag with a new one. After drying the wheel with paper towels, I lightly wiped the wheel with vinegar, blotted that, and slipped the wheel into the new bag (gallon size...just fits :) ).
After a couple days it is still looking dry inside the bag. I will be monitoring.
-Boofer-
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I had to scrap and wipe a jack yesterday with vinegar also, so I hope it works.
Hope your's is also on the mend.
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Hey Boofer-that is areal nice effort in your Gouda. I think you probably should air dry maybe 2-3 weeks depending on the weight of your wheel before moving to the bag or waxing.
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zenith1 - I think you're right. I just checked the bag and guess what?...it's wet inside. It's a 4+ pound wheel. I'll be taking it out of the bag again tonight and air-drying it in the cave. The temp hovers around 55 degrees F @ ~94%RH. I hope that will allow it to dry out a bit.
I really have high hopes for this Gouda. It looks good so far (fingers crossed ;) ).
-Boofer-
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Boofer- the temp is good, I think the RH should be around 80-85% for a Gouda. You should be close enough.
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I air dry at low room temp for a couple of days. Then I rub it down with olive oil and age it in the cave for about a month. Then I vacuum bag.
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Except for maybe havarti and edam I don't vac pac until it sits 3 to 4 weeks in the cave. Depends on how it develops. Goudas maybe 3 weeks. It also depends on how many cheeses are in the cave but when it seems stable no mold growth, good rind development then vac pac.
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Should the gouda be brined at room temperature, or should it go with the brine into a refrigerator? I just have to guess that it's supposed to be room temperature.
I just took my 1-gallon gouda with the liquid smoke in it out of the improvised press, and I've got it in brine, but Ricki Carroll's recipe didn't specify a temperature for brining.
I'm almost embarrassed to ask my cheese kindergarten question in front of such experts.... but I trust you guys. You seem kind. :)
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I read somewhere on this forum that brining should be done in the cave so that's what I've tried to do.
There are no kindergarten questions here. What may seem innocent and newbie to you may be a source of enlightenment to someone else more "expert". In our own individual fashions we are all in pursuit of some ideal in cheesedom. 8)
Here is an Alpine I did recently.
-Boofer-
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I brine at room temperature. Seems to work best for me.
Hey Boofer I have the bowl too! Did you air dry the cheese before bagging it? I thought I'd read you did.
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I went back and checked here on the forum and it calls for 60°F/15.6°C brining temperature.
That seems to work for me, although if my cave is filled with cheeses, that may not be an optimal solution.
Debi - If you're asking about that Alpine, yes, I did air-dry it before I bagged it. It's looking pretty good, but it's still quite young. I'm hoping it turns out to be more than just another Parmesan look-alike. Seems like all my Swisses turn out hard and dry. I sweated this one for about two weeks before I sealed it up.
-Boofer-
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Ah I see good luck hon!
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This wheel has been in a vacuum-sealed bag since October 9th. Some small amount of whey accumulated inside the bag. Last night I cracked the wheel. Once again, I have a crumbly cheese. Salt content is okay...fairly light actually. It was in the brine/whey for 7 hours. I see that I used 2 cups of kosher salt to 1 gallon of whey. I should have doubled the salt.
As you can see from the pics, the slice is fractured. :(
I felt good about the techniques I employed for this cheese, but somewhere along the line I missed a beat. At 5 drops of annatto, the final color is a shade of light cream.
So why the crumbling texture? 25 minutes ripening. Temp at 89F. Cooking slowly up to 100F.
I sliced (or tried to) some off of one quarter (the other three were vacuum-sealed with my new FoodSaver and returned to cave-age), and toasted it on sourdough, then added a thin slice of roast beef. Pretty tasty! ;D
-Boofer-
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What were your pH levels during the make? Crumbly usually means too much acid production before draining and moulding/pressing.
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I'm sorry, I don't check pH levels yet. No meter and I don't trust the strips. I was keenly aware of the possibility of excessive acidification. That's why I limited the ripening to 25 minutes. I was really trying to limit the acid production. Eh, didn't work.
Maybe Santa will bring me a pH meter. :)
-Boofer-
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Boofer...
Here's my take on your situation (take it for what it's worth).
I agree 100% with LB concerning too much acid.
A Gouda should have a whey Ph reading of 5.4 to 5.5 at the END of pressing.
Since Gouda curd is not salted it continued to become more acidic all during your pressing time so I'm sure that your final Ph was well below the target.
Today I made my first Gouda of the year and here is my pressing schedule (understand that I'm reading from my notes and I use a pneumatic press so my readings are LINE PRESSURE of this style of press).
20 lb line pressure for 15 minutes
40 lb line pressure for 30 minutes
70 lb line pressure for 1 hour, 20 minutes
At this point I removed the cheese from the press and placed into my saturated brine solution. The reason being is that my whey Ph was reading 5.45 at this point which is right where I wanted to be.
I had originally planned on a 3 hour press at 70 lb line pressure, but since my ph was right, I ended the press.
Is this the right way to go? Well the answer is I really don't know.
What I do know is that some of my Goudas would turn out fantastic and others would be crumbly and bitter. I've not been one to keep really good notes in the past and because of that I never knew what type of cheese I would turn out with. I will say that even the Goudas that had a good flavor did NOT have a good texture (crumbly) and I'm certain that it was because I pressed too long.
My family and friends have always raved about my Gouda attempts but I've never been that happy with them.
Because of that I am now building my own recipe and hoping for the best.
This is my first attempt, using this recipe, but the wheel did have a completely different "feel" than any of my past attempts. Time will tell how it works out, but I am pretty happy that I hit the proper Ph target.
I'm going to give this wheel two weeks and then cut it open. If it does work out I will be sure to post the recipe I used on this board.
As with any other cheese I'm positive that Ph is everything when it comes to a proper Gouda texture and taste so that's what I'm working towards.
Sorry this was so long winded, but as I said earlier I'm certain that your problem is with too much acid production. Hopefully my take on this situation will prove itself out with my own attempt.
Dave
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Oh, and one more thing....
Every single one of my past attempts have looked exactly like the photos you posted.
Not exactly what I would call an ugly cheese, but not exactly what I'm sure we are both looking for.
Dave
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Dave - Thanks for your insight.
I guess I have a couple ways to go for this.
- Less culture to begin with
- Shorter ripening time
Then if I also shorten the pressing time, that should lower my overall acid level. I really want to discover "the secret" to why my cheeses are dry & crumbly. That seems to be a really common theme here. I have heard the common rationales but I have yet to correct the problem and produce a decent Gouda or Colby. Two tries each...four cheeses total that ended with the same defect. Arrrgh! >:(
One of the clues that Sailor presented seems very plausible for this Gouda. There was whey leakage in the vacuum bag even after I removed the wheel and dried it off. I am now rethinking my pressing program and eyeing a 15:1 advantage pulley&lever press that will press every little bit of whey out of the wheel. It has yet to be built, but I'm thinking I need to have more press power in a shorter period of time to also reduce the production of acid. Isn't that what commercial operations do?
-Boofer-
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Well here's an interesting development in Gouda #2. I had cut the wheel into quarters and then vacuum-sealed three of the quarters and put them back in the cave.
The vacuum bags have seemingly released their vacuum and the bag is quite loose around the cheese. I know the vacuum is intact so the only other reason for the bag being so loose is that the cheese is outgassing. Add to that the fact that the center of the cheese seems to be developing a Brie-like consistency. The picture attempts to show that. I sampled the first quarter with these two characteristics and noted that the salt content is relatively low, as is the acid level. Now these are two traits I wanted to nail down in my next cheese (this one) so that should be a good thing. But at this point I don't know what's going on. Any ideas?
As far as the overall flavor after barely a month, the flavor is . . . curious. I don't know whether I like it or not. The spreadable nature of the inner part is troubling. I know I definitely did not make a Brie. :o
-Boofer-
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Gee when you added the water to the whey that should have slow acid production. Maybe the Havrati trick with dipping it in plain water would help?
It could be that the curds held to much moisture too. Maybe cut them sooner and heat slower. The melting cheese could be to much moisture also. Did it come up to temperature really fast after healing? That can harden the outter edges of the curd and cause them to hold to much whey.
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Like I said, the acid level was reduced. The wheel, when cut, showed a crumbly texture which seemed drier than perhaps a Gouda should be so I don't think excess moisture was an issue. What seems plausible is that the culture (or some culture) was working overtime on the cheese. As far as the temperature coming up after healing...I brought it up slowly, taking about an hour.
What is the "Havrati trick with dipping it in plain water"?
-Boofer-
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There's a Havarti thread here somewhere (Havarti is washed rind also) and the recipe said dip the cheese in plain water. I think it's on Ricci's site. well we mulled this over for awhile and I tried it. It works great! Perfect texture every time. I tried it twice now. It stops the acidification and makes the cheese nice and rubbery(?) Pliable (?). Very Gouda like. may try this on my next gouda.
Here's the recipe (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html)
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Well, this goes down as a strange-tasting, odd-acting, out-of-character cheese for me.
The cheese quarters have been in their vacuum bags aging in the cave, but they have continued to "ooze" like Brie. I don't have any idea why the cheese developed this characteristic. Further, the taste is very difficult to describe. It's a little bitter, but overall just not edible. I was hoping that the flavor would improve and I could maybe live with and truly enjoy the Gouda that thinks it's a Brie. There was no mold nor other signs of contamination.
Sad to say, this one goes out with the morning's compost. :'(
-Boofer-
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Quick question for the thread.
At what stage during cheese development does pH actually stop?
From the cheddar thread I've been reading-- apparently the pH doesnt even stop while the cheese is being pressed. It continues on going.
So does the pH number ever cease to stop dropping over time or does it continue doing so all the way through the aging process, while it's in the cave?
Because if the latter is true, that means that technically the cheese is alive, which would defeat the very purpose of vac-sealing it, as sealing it would inhibit the living bacteria's natural interactions with the environment and air around it.
I swear linuxboy addressed this already and said that the bacteria inside of it was virtually dead:
Lactic bacteria is in an anaerobic phase after it finishes eating lactose, it's dormant, and then dies.
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2795.msg22516.html#msg22516 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2795.msg22516.html#msg22516)
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pH stops falling once the bacteria stop producing lactic acid. Yes, in cheddar, and most other cheeses, some bacteria continue eating the lactose, but decreasingly so. Usually, it will stabilize 1-2 days after press, and then over time most cheeses will rise a little in pH during maturity. Some, like emmenthaler, rise a lot, all the way to the high 5s or low 6s.
You are right, vac sealing does inhibit the natural interactions, but not so much of the bacteria, which enter an anerobic/survival phase anyway, but more so of the physical cheese. Oxygen, for example, aids some catabolytic and proteolytic processes. Similar to wine in analogy, but different pathways.
You will produce different flavors when you vac seal vs air age.
And yes, the bacteria first eat, then slow down eating as they run out of food, then go to sleep, then slowly die off over time.
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Assuming it's an impermeable membrane, doesn't waxing cut off oxygen and inhibit proteolysis as well?
I know that Francois has talked about vac bagging Swiss and others to create rindless cheeses. Of course many commercial makers use flavor enhancers and some age at higher temperatures so they can get product out the door quicker. I have also read a couple of articles recently that suggest slow aging around 45F. They suggest that bacterial breakdown and proteolysis takes longer but produces a much more complex cheese.
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Sailor, cutting off oxygen has to do with the redox reaction in oxidative phosphorylation. Meaning glycolysis and ATP/NADH. Sorry, no time to get into a detailed explanation right now. But recall that cell walls in bacteria have a shell of bonded polysaccharides, and when they break up, the glycolysis of those sugars are important, as is the glycolysis of residual lactose and any trace sugars that remain. Proteolysis by proteases in protein catabolism is simpler than that; it's just the hydrolysis of peptide bonds in the caseins into the monomer amino acids that make them up.
Try saying that one three times fast :P
Having the cheese exposed to the air not only provides oxygen, it also removes any gases produced, lowers the water content, etc. This makes for a different cheese. Not fundamentally different, of course, just slightly different in terms of the balance on the sensory wheel. But that subtle difference is sometimes the difference between good and fantastic.
You're right, a lower aging temp will produce a more complex cheese, but it takes a long, long time. Not practical for most producers; there are bills to pay :)
edit: Re:oxygen and water. This is more important when there are active cell processes that go on, meaning in the first 2-4 weeks of maturity. Those weeks are ultra crucial to the final character of the cheese because bacteria still carry out metabolytic processes, mostly anaerobic. With active metabolysis, Krebs and other similar processes have a chance to produce more complex foundational compounds that are then key in later chain reactions as the cheese ages from 30 days to eating.
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Yesterday I cut the Gouda that I made on November 21.
I used the recipe from Ricki Carroll's "Home Cheese Making" book, -- mostly -- as close as I could. The final aging was in the vegetable bin at the bottom of my refrigerator, so that's got to be cooler than 50 degrees. I put a few tablespoons of liquid smoke in the one gallon of whole cow milk, storebought milk at Aldi.
I posted this picture of how I pressed it before. Some of you might remember. :) Seems to have worked.
I waxed it with melted candles I bought at the thrift shop.
It came out like smoked Gouda. :) Seemed pretty good, but then I'm not a cheese expert. I just make stuff and eat it and think it's pretty darned cool. That, with some of my homemade-from-frozen-grape-juice-concentrate wine, and I think I'm doing something neat. It's enough to amuse myself and impress my friends, anyway.
Thanks to all of you guys for your help, encouragement and information. As you can see, you have nothing to worry about as far as competition goes! LOL
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I love your setup Mosborn! Looks too familuar!