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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Aging Cheese, Everything Except Caves => Topic started by: justsocat on December 24, 2009, 03:11:44 PM

Title: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: justsocat on December 24, 2009, 03:11:44 PM
I reed a lot at CF about vacuum sealing and at the same time have so many problems with aging cheeses in my fridge. So i made up my mind to purchase a sealer. But yesterday i've seen at cheesemaking.com that plastic bags are not good for aging cheeses. They say plastic don't let bacteria to breeze and aging process stops. That sounds logical. But almost all people here pack cheeses into plastic bags, right? Can you tell me, please, what is true?
BTW Sailor, and someone else use vinegar before sealing. What particular concentration of acetic acid solution i have to use?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: Alex on December 24, 2009, 04:03:43 PM
I do not use vacuum packing. I have good experience with wax (when I want a sealed cheese), I even recycle the wax. I am not sure that ageing stops because of sealing the cheese. Vacuum packing or waxing gives the same type of sealing and oil, almost the same.
Washing the cheese with a solution of vinegar and salt should prevent mold growth. The most common vinegar is 5% concentrated.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: Tea on December 24, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
I also don't seal, but either wax, or let a natural rind form.  What problem are you having with aging in the fridge?  If I am aging in the fridge, and it is a natural rind, I first wrap in baking/silicone paper, then in foil.  This seems to keep it free of contaminants and is easy to check it's progress.
Just wondering.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: zenith1 on December 25, 2009, 12:01:42 AM
Hi Pavel- What problems exactly are you having with your cheese development? I agree with Tea- I too usually proceed with a natural rind. But that being said I have used wax before with success. The thing with a good cheese wax is that a small amount of respiration continues to progress while your cheese ages. That allows your cheese to further develop it's flavor. If you vacuum bag your wheel you have at that time totally cut of the respiration process, so in effect the cheese will emerge from the bag very much like it went into the bag. So you are correct in your understanding in that regard. The  order of my preference is natural rind, wrapped, waxed, and then bagged. I frequently will age a natural rind wheel to the point I feel is where I want the wheel to be from a flavor standpoint, and then bag the wheel to keep it from excessive drying in the long term. Wax is very effective and widely used, just be careful working with the stuff. If you are having a molding problem that needs to addressed in another step either with a brine rub or using plain old white vinegar. This will likely kill off any mold spores on the surface before you proceed with whatever step you have chosen to use to age your wheel.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: DeejayDebi on December 25, 2009, 12:50:15 AM
Pavel the plastic bags most places sell are different from the vacuum bags. More rubbery. They seem to encourage mold growth for some reason.  The vaccumm bags do not.

I tend to age for about 2 weeks to a month in the cave depending on the cheese (2 weeks for soft cheese wthout a rind) to form a rind then vaccuum seal and my cheeses age wonderfully with no mold. They will kep for years that way with little to no attention needed.

I wipe most of mine with olive oil first. If there is a hint of mold I will wash first with a bit of salt water and vinegar then dry as norma,l then oil and seal.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: justsocat on December 26, 2009, 05:49:54 AM
The problem is i always have different types of cheeses in my fridge. As usual there are blues, Cheddars and washed rind cheeses. It is hard enough to control humidity level especially because i havn't separate fridge for cheeses. Only one shelf of my kitchen fridge is given for aging area. And after humidity i constantly fight with molds appeared exactly where i don't want them.
I didn't find cheese wax in the area and regular wax doesn't work well. It stuck to the wheels and it's fragile.
I can stand that problem for two or four weeks but i hate it lasts longer. So i want after 2 or 4 weeks vacuum pack cheeses to get some ease with aging them the rest of the time they call for.
So vacuum bags are different from regular plastic ones? Have i better vaccum pack in special cheese bags?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: Alex on December 26, 2009, 08:06:33 AM
As I understand you can not get proper wax for your cheeses. May be you can get Potasium Sorbat you should delute with water and wash the cheese. It is a known bad mold inhibitor.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: justsocat on December 26, 2009, 10:48:34 AM
Yes, i can not get proper wax for my cheeses. Potassium Sorbat sounds good but a bit "chemically", and i'll give it a try but only when nothing else help :) And i've already made the payment  for vacuum sealer. Hope i'll get one in a couple of weeks. Now i think about propper material for packing.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: Alex on December 26, 2009, 12:21:36 PM
I wish you luck, anyway, if you'll decide to use Potassium Sorbat, don't exceed a 2% solution and wipe the cheese not more than three times in a row.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: zenith1 on December 26, 2009, 05:11:28 PM
for me the problem with the mold growth in the bag is probably due to not drying the wheel enough before placing in the baq.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: DeejayDebi on December 26, 2009, 06:54:46 PM
I don't know if these are everywhere and I just posted this to another thread somewhere but ...

We have these plastic bags here that are a diffrent plactic than the "normal" food bags that really seem to help keep food fresh. You can wash and reuse them indefinatelty as long as you are careful and don't poke holes in them. They are pricey but they work. They do not encourage bad molds in cheeses like regular plastic bags.  They also have some for fresh vegetables and fruits. I have no idea why they work but they do. Maybe the material maybe the color? They are a yellow/green color.

They look like this:



Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: Brie on December 28, 2009, 12:37:11 AM
My question about the vacuum-sealed bags is how does the cheese achieve the proper humidity during aging with this form of packaging? Or does this work only with cheeses that could otherwise be waxed?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: DeejayDebi on December 28, 2009, 01:28:28 AM
All of the moisure in the cheese remain in the bag so humidity is not a problem unless it was not properly dried before bagging.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: wharris on December 28, 2009, 02:05:40 AM
I am sure Linuxboy and/or Francois will chime in here.

But I think vacuum sealing a cheese can work, or it can be disasterous depending on the type of cheese you are looking to make.

Sealing a cheese after pressing is certainly done for some commercial cheeses.  I find it difficult to understand why cheese aging will fail due to being sealed. My understanding is that the aging and ripening of cheese is a wide and complex collection of activities, only some of which is bacterial in nature.  I don't pretend to know what they all are.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: linuxboy on December 28, 2009, 04:50:26 AM
I reed a lot at CF about vacuum sealing and at the same time have so many problems with aging cheeses in my fridge. So i made up my mind to purchase a sealer. But yesterday i've seen at cheesemaking.com that plastic bags are not good for aging cheeses. They say plastic don't let bacteria to breeze and aging process stops. That sounds logical. But almost all people here pack cheeses into plastic bags, right? Can you tell me, please, what is true?
BTW Sailor, and someone else use vinegar before sealing. What particular concentration of acetic acid solution i have to use?

Where on cheesemaking.com does it say that? Vacuum packing cheese is a tool used to achieve a specific result. The result is a rindless or semi-rindless cheese. Lactic bacteria is in an anaerobic phase after it finishes eating lactose, it's dormant, and then dies. That death doesn't need oxygen. Some byproducts produced are gases, and having them exposed to air does vent the gases. Also, oxygen does help with some later proteolytic processes. So a vacuum packed cheese will taste slightly different than one that is not. But the aging process does not stop.

I should be more clear. This applies only for lactic acid bacteria. Molds and other bacteria are different. You couldn't pack, say, a b linens cheese until after it matures because it does need to breathe and you also need to wash it.

Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: justsocat on December 31, 2009, 08:34:17 AM
Here i've found the information that confused me a bit:
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/245-FAQ-Aging-Cheese.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/245-FAQ-Aging-Cheese.html)
There is written:

"10. Can I vacuum pack my cheese instead of waxing it?

Vacuum packing is only good for storing cheese. It stops the culture and keeps ripening from happening. For aging, we recommend either waxing or keeping the rind natural."

I understand that vacuum sealing inhibits ripening. But isn't it recommendation not to vacuum pack cheeses of any kind?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: linuxboy on December 31, 2009, 09:35:49 AM
Here i've found the information that confused me a bit:
[url]http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/245-FAQ-Aging-Cheese.html[/url] ([url]http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/245-FAQ-Aging-Cheese.html[/url])
There is written:

"10. Can I vacuum pack my cheese instead of waxing it?

Vacuum packing is only good for storing cheese. It stops the culture and keeps ripening from happening. For aging, we recommend either waxing or keeping the rind natural."


That is a false statement. The lactic acid culture almost completely stops metabolysis in 2-7 days after the make. There's no food left. Vacuum sealing does not inhibit ripening. Molds and other rind finishes like b linens-washed rind affect the cheese by giving it additional flavors that the molds release, so  you can't vacuum pack those until after affinage.

It is correct to say that various affinage practices contribute to ripening and flavor. Of course, if you want, say, a bloomy rind like a camembert, you don't vacuum pack that. Or if you want a natural gruyere type rind, you also need to let that be, washing the rind with brine. Commercially, rindless cheeses are painted with PVA or vac sealed and age fine. Here in the USA, there is a defined commodity, sold on the brokerage/exchange. It is a 40 lb chunk of cheddar vacuum packed immediately after its made and aged in the bag, then sold at various stages of ripeness (baby, mild, sharp, extra sharp).

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: DeejayDebi on January 01, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
I have a ton of cheeses vacuum bagged to disprove that statement.
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: cath s on January 02, 2010, 01:14:48 AM
just reading this thread prompted my memory.

I used to work for the NZ Dairy Board in the Cheese Area.  I spent alot of time with NZ's largest factory dealing with cheesemakers and the cheese.  All 20kg blocks were vacuum packed, and aged accordingly..
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: wharris on January 02, 2010, 01:32:51 AM
I'm sure that the those at cheesemaking.com are busily conducting a proactive and vigorous self-review and will be issuing a statement, correcting this mistake.


(i love this forum...)
 
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: DeejayDebi on January 02, 2010, 03:28:26 AM
Steve is big on the mold ripened cheeses maybe he was thinking brie like we tend to think about cheddar?
Title: Re: Plastic bags - good or not?
Post by: justsocat on January 02, 2010, 12:49:18 PM
Thank you all for chime in. My mind is much clearere now and i'll be waiting for vacuum sealer delivery without thinking of the money spent in vain :D
What a huge heap of books i'd  had to go over to get all those answers if this forum doesn't exist!
Yes, Wayne, I love it too!