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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: H-K-J on October 26, 2012, 11:47:12 PM

Title: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 26, 2012, 11:47:12 PM
Last one was a total disaster but I aint no quitter so tomorrow gonuh get some milk and make an attempt at another one (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) :o
besides I wahna use my press again, it's been sittin on it's laurels long enough >:(
I think Sunday is make day :-\
ROCK-N-ROLL 8)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: mjr522 on October 27, 2012, 12:57:36 AM
Good luck!  I'm looking forward to hearing about and seeing pictures of your experience.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 27, 2012, 07:30:55 PM
I jumped the gun as usual  :-[ no milk today so no make tomorrow.
so this gives me a moment to clarify a couple of questions on the cutting and stirring of the curd.
1. my recipe calls for 1/4 inch curd cut, I was thinking bigger?
2.after cutting how long should it rest before stirring?
3.Just how gentle is stir gently (I'm thinkin more like a giggle at first then just a little more aggressive as the batch moves on)
Any thoughts or help with this as this is where I believe I went wrong on my first effort.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: JeffHamm on October 27, 2012, 07:43:10 PM
Hi H-K-J,

I've never made swiss, but if you're using H/P milk, then I find that after cutting, even if you let it rest 5-10 minutes before you start to stir, you have to just jiggle the curds at first.  I use a plastic spatula (egg flipping kind, not the one for cleaning icing out of bowls - is there any other use for those - oh yah, getting the last of the peanut butter, but I digress) and just insert it down one of the cuts.  Then, just jiggle enough to get the curds to set up a gentle wave motion.  This gets them moving around a bit, prevents matting, and helps them to expel whey and firm up more.  Eventally, the curds shrink up as the whey expells and you can start to do something that resembles stirring.  However, all you really need to do is move the curds.  My last make, though, no matter how gentle I was, the curds just shattered, so I won't be using that brand of milk again. 

I also used some non-homogenized milk recently, and it sets up a lot firmer and the curds were much more enjoyable to work with. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 27, 2012, 09:03:34 PM
Hi Jeff
the milk I plan on using is 3 gal pasteurized whole and 2 gal 2%
I read somewhere on the forum that alps use a lower fat content although my memory aint what it used to be ???
anyway that is kind-of were I'm at.
thanks for the help though ;D 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 28, 2012, 12:08:34 AM
I'll refresh your memory for you then.

Some alpine cheeses are part skim, while others are full fat. You can go either way and you will be fine.
A lot of the current small producers in Switzerland would make full fat cheese.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 28, 2012, 01:59:28 AM
So now  a new thought all 5 gallon pasteurized whole milk?
But the end,  the point of cutting the curd the gentle stir to the more how do I say, less gentle stir of the curd
how do I keep the curd from drying out
less cook time? this is where i am getting lost.

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 28, 2012, 02:52:00 AM
would have to see your recipe to tell you much
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on October 28, 2012, 05:51:30 AM
Here are a few notes for you to ponder.

Never made an Emmentaler, but I've done some Goutalers, Maasdammers,and Beauforts.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: george on October 28, 2012, 10:13:19 AM
So now  a new thought all 5 gallon pasteurized whole milk?
But the end,  the point of cutting the curd the gentle stir to the more how do I say, less gentle stir of the curd
how do I keep the curd from drying out
less cook time? this is where i am getting lost.
If I'm reading this correctly (which I may not), the jiggling counts as stir time.  As long as it's moving and the curds are separating from each other, it counts.   So you don't have to adjust cook time for jiggles vs. actual stirs.  :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on October 28, 2012, 03:52:20 PM
You might also (if using h/p milk) consider using 0% fat milk and add cream to get where you need to p/f wise. I tried that a few weeks ago and got pretty good results, curd wise. Curds were pretty decent, kind of between regular h/p milk curds and raw milk. Very comparable to a non-homogenized pasteurized milk. It is hard finding a cream that is not ultra pasteurized, but I have found a dairy that supplies cream for several of the local groceries.
If I have the time, I get raw milk...my 2nd choice is non-homogenized milk, but that is only available at whole foods and the supply is iffy...last time I got that only 2 half gallon jugs were available. My 3rd choice is organic no-fat milk with added cream.  Last and final option is regular h/p milk but I won't go there again...curds were rather delicate.

That being said...I have no finished cheeses made with the no-fat milk/cream combo...so really nothing I can compare finished product-wise.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 28, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Thank you everyone for the input so far greatly appreciated :)
would have to see your recipe to tell you much

here is the basic part, as far as pressing I have no problem.
My problem, last time was no curd knit and that is what I want to avoid this time, I don't remember who or where I got this from but I am positive it came from the forum.
I should also add that this is not the same recipe I used last time (I am avoiding that one all together) :P

5 gal. Whole pasteurized milk (my new choice)
   ⅜ tsp. TA61
 ⅜ tsp. LH100
 3/16 tsp. Propionic shermanii
1 pinch and a dash = (3/16 tsp.) Dry calf rennet

   Warm milk to 90°f.
   Sprinkle TA, LH Starters and Propionic over surface of milk cover and let sit 5 to 10 minutes
   Mix in gently trying not to disturb surface of milk let ripen for 60 min.
   Prepare rennet by adding 3/16-tsp. to ¼ cup distilled/sterile water 
   Add rennet by pouring through perforated spoon over surface of milk again mix in gently
   Multiply floc. x 2.5
   Cut curds to ¼ inch and let heal for 10-15 min.
   Start to gently stir while raising temp to 100°f in 40 min.
   Then slowly raise temp of curds to 122°f in another 40 min.
   Cook at 122°f for approx. 30 min. more....curds should be "pea - rice size".
   cook until semi-dry and semi-firm but still able to knit easily
   Drain in cloth and load into mold in one piece or large chunks.
   Press under warm whey (120°) for 20 min. @ 18- lbs. (I don’t think it should be 120°f maybe 90° to 100°)
   Flip and re-press warm for 20 min. @ 30-lbs.

one thing I am not to sure about is pressing under whey at a temp of 120°f for 40 minutes
wouldn't you be cooking it more and drying out the curds even in the press, anyone have thoughts on this?

Here are a few notes for you to ponder.
Never made an Emmentaler, but I've done some Goutalers, Maasdammers,and Beauforts.
-Boofer-

Thanks Boofer, I will be reading these today ^-^

[quote If I'm reading this correctly (which I may not), the jiggling counts as stir time.  As long as it's moving and the curds are separating from each other, it counts.   So you don't have to adjust cook time for jiggles vs. actual stirs.  :)

That is kind-of where my thoughts are turning also.

Again, thanks everyone for the in-put on this I truly do not want another 5 gallon disaster :-[

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on October 28, 2012, 05:51:55 PM
Seems like a lot of culture for 5 gallons: 3/4 tsp. not counting the shermanii.  Is this proper?

Have never made emmentaler, but will eventually get around to it. I will be making a 2 gallon make, more than likely.     :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 28, 2012, 06:02:26 PM
OK, here's what I can tell you

I have never made an Emmental style cheese, and never really intend to. But the cheese I make and learned first hand how to make in Switzerland from a who-knows-how-many'th generation cheesemaker is really very similar. It is just cooked a tad bit more, and not allowed to form eyes (eyes are considered a defect, and a cheese with eyes cannot be sold) So the techniques all apply.

People's recipes for Emmental style cheese always confuse me, because they don't usually quite mesh up with the Swiss traditions. But there are reasons for that, such as different milk, and different ways of handling the milk.

But here's what I have...

The initial warming can be as fast or slow as you want. Only here's my suggestion, why not add the starter before the  milk is all the way up to 90? On the Alp, we added the culture immediately to the fresh morning milk before warming it up, and before the cool evening milk was added and again warmed up.

As for your 60 minute ripening time, I guess that's a necessity with powdered culture. With our whey culture you don't need that.

Mix your rennet with clean water and fully dissolve it before adding to the milk, then stir extremely well. The biggest problem people run into I see is under-mixed rennet. It will still set the milk, but takes a lot longer to do so.

We also used a 2-part curd cutting system. The curd is cut into big chunks and stirred, allowing it to ripen a little more and also get toughened up before cutting.

When cutting, the 2-stage system is useful. First cut into big chunks, then stir this with a small bowl in such a way as to pull the bottom chunks up so they can be cut (with the bowl) to the same size. This was done for 10 minutes, giving the culture more time to ripen. Stir with the bowl by putting it into the vat at the far end, then pulling it toward you. This will pull up the bottom of the curd.

The second cutting is also timed, the harp is used to break up the curd but is done so very slowly. You should cut in such a way, with such a pattern, that it takes 10 minutes to reduce your curd to the 1/4" size.

Also, we brewed the curd. This is a step left off of most recipes I have seen. After cutting, the curd is stirred continuously for about 30 minutes to give the curd time to develop and strengthen before heating. There is a special tool for this that stirs the curd without cutting it, in Swiss German it's called a Brecher The stirring has to be very slow too, to not break the curd. You want to keep it from clumping.

I suppose you can skip the 60 minute ripening at the beginning and instead do the post-rennet ripening like described here. These steps make for a healthier curd.

The cutting of the curd should be at a consistent, slow speed. You never want to move too fast, this will shatter the curd which causes problems later, also variable speed winds up giving you inconsistent curd size which is a bad thing. The curd should be as uniform as possible (I can tell you the technique to do this in a large vat, but not for 5 gallons)

When stirring the curd during the cooking, use something that is not going to cut it. Don't use a whisk by any means. If you could fashion a brecher, that would be great, ohtherwise use a fairly narrow spatula (without holes in it) or a spoon (without holes in it)

You want to again stir very slowly, just fast enough to keep the curd from clumping together. If the curd clumps, then it will not sweat properly.

I would recommend something along the lines of the above technique. Letting the curd rest for 15 minutes is not a good idea, it will clump and then when you go to break it up again you will tear it up into little pieces. I was taught that under no circumstances should the curd be allowed to clump for the first cutting until the cooking is finished.

Pressing under 120 degree whey will not cook the curd, because it is meshed together and therefore cannot sweat out any more moisture.

Also, I would recommend you change your pressing schedule.

Press for 5 minute under warm whey
Press for 10 minutes under warm whey
Press for 20 minutes under warm whey
Press for 45 minutes under warm whey
Press for 1 hour under warm whey
Press for 2 hours, probably don't need whey by this point as curd should be well knit.
Press for 4 hours,
Press overnight.

This pressing schedule will give you a much more uniform, well packed, and flawless loaf. It also gives you plenty of opportunity to eliminate any surface imperfections.
This is the obsessive Swiss schedule.

Brine for maybe 6 or 8 hours. We would brine 24 hours, but that is for a 30# cheese and yours would get very salty if left for that long (like a parm)






Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 28, 2012, 06:17:42 PM
The rule for pressing weight, as I learned it, is that you should have 8 pounds of pressing weight for every 1 pound of cheese being pressed.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on October 29, 2012, 01:42:30 PM
Press for 5 minute under warm whey
Press for 10 minutes under warm whey
Press for 20 minutes under warm whey
Press for 45 minutes under warm whey
Press for 1 hour under warm whey
Press for 2 hours, probably don't need whey by this point as curd should be well knit.
Press for 4 hours,
Press overnight.
Wouldn't the overnight pressing result in a cheese too acidic? Seems like that would be more appropriate for the 30 pound wheels. My limited experience dealing with 4 pound wheels has been to press until pH 5.3-5.4 which occurs in under 8 hours.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 29, 2012, 02:07:36 PM
Alpkäserei, thank you for such an in depth answer, 8)
I do anticipate at least a 5 lb wheel, so I should press with 40 lb's all of the time?
Quote
First cut into big chunks, then stir this with a small bowl in such a way as to pull the bottom chunks up so they can be cut (with the bowl) to the same size.

I am not sure how I would do this in a 5 gal pot (will have to think on that)

Boofer I don't own a PH meter :-[ (one day I hope)

Such great input thanks guy's ^-^

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on October 29, 2012, 02:39:56 PM

Wouldn't the overnight pressing result in a cheese too acidic? Seems like that would be more appropriate for the 30 pound wheels. My limited experience dealing with 4 pound wheels has been to press until pH 5.3-5.4 which occurs in under 8 hours.

-Boofer-

At which point it goes into the cave, correct? How can you check the pH of the cheese once it stops draining whey? I think you have a similar pH meter as mine, which works great for liquids, but measuring a solid is another story.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 29, 2012, 06:23:45 PM
IF you continue to press with no heat loss (i.e. under whey) then it will continue to increase in acidity. But if you press at at room temp for this period, perhaps not.

It might not be necessary to press it as long with a 4# wheel, as it will be easier to knit the curd. But with a big wheel, you have to press it a long time especially if you want good big eyes. The curd has to be thoroughly fused together, and the best way of doing this is with moderately heavy weight over a long time. The size and quality of your eyes is directly related to how well you pressed it. You can only get the 1" eyes which are the standard of Emmental Schweiz AOC with a very thoroughly pressed cheese. Otherwise, you get a lot of smaller, scattered eyes. (The large eyes are the standard because they are a measure of how well the cheese is pressed, which has a lot to do with the texture of the cheese)

During pressing, scale should have little to do with acidification (actually, if you do things right, scale should have little to do with it period, but it does inasmuch as on a smaller scale it is harder to be precise with rennet and culture) What matters here is heat loss. When pressing our big wheels, we keep them wrapped in a heavy towel for the first several hours so that the curd on the surface will be well knit. After this, it doesn't matter so much. The latter period pressings are uncovered (so it won't acidify) but are important to get a uniform cheese.

After pressing, an emmentaler should not go directly into the cave, it should go into salt brine which is at or below room temperature (55 degrees F is ideal). This brine not only hardens the rind and helps you in forming a good washed rind (which is how an emmentaler should be done) but it also stunts the acidification by cooling the cheese down.

As for not having a pH meter, look here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10346.msg77268.html#new (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10346.msg77268.html#new)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 30, 2012, 02:11:27 AM
In a 5 gallon pot, maybe you could use a tea saucer as your stirring tool (or 2 of them, 1 in each hand.) I would think that would work.

Just be sure and draw the chunks slowly.

If you decide to do it this way, here is how you proceed:

Take a long knife and carefully cut the curds in parallel lines about 1 to 1.5 inches apart. Then cut in parallel lines running crossways so that you have a checkerboard appearance on the top.

Now take your saucers, and carefully dip into the vat at the far edge, against the wall. Slowly draw toward you and this should pull up the bottom.

As the big chunks come up from the bottom, use your saucers to chop them into smaller pieces. Continue until all the pieces are 1-2 inch chunks and there are no bigger chunks remaining. When stirring, you might slightly change the point where you put the saucers in from time to time to ensure there are no pockets of big chunks trapped down there. 

This all should take a little over 5 minutes, maybe less with so small a cheese. Don't fret the timing, go slow. After the curd is in even chunks, continue to stir until the whey is no longer white (this is what you do lacking a pH meter. This is how I learned to do it. I never have measured the pH) Total, this should happen within 10 minutes of first cutting the curd. The whey should be a pale yellow, but not too yellow.

Once this has happened, take whatever tool it is you use to cut the curd (maybe a large whisk? I doubt you have a Swiss harp) and stir in a gentle 8-pattern. At the beginning, you can use more of a circular pattern but this is trickier, I recommend you use an 8-pattern. It should take you about 10 minutes to cut the curd down to final size, and using this pattern they should end up evenly sized. (Stirring the big cheese with a Swiss harp involves a lot of technique, it is really hard to describe and maybe wouldn't work as well in  a flat-bottomed pan) If your curd gets to final size and even size much faster than this, then you stirred it too aggressively.

After the curd is the size you want, take you saucers or a wide spoon and very gently stir for about 30 minutes. This we call brewing the curds (actually, in German we just call it Rühren, which means stirring) It is important that you do not let the curd come to rest (I don't know why some recipes say to do this, it is a bad practice) If you do, they clump and you will have to break them to get them apart again. keeping them gently stirred constantly will keep them from clumping, and keep them the size you want them.

Brewing the curds makes them strong and ripe, and prepares them for the scalding stage (in German, this is called vorkäsen). Now it is very important to keep them moving. As they heat up, they will want to stick fast to each other.

It is also imperative that the Vorkäsen be done in the proper amount of time, this is the number one determiner of the hardness and texture of the cooked Swiss cheeses. A little variation makes a lot of difference.

As a rule, I was taught that it should take as close to 40 minutes to reach the cooking temperature as you can possibly manage. This will take some practice, and is very difficult to get right the first time. I think maybe this step is easier to get right over a wood fire than it is on an electric or gas stove. If you get there too fast DO NOT continue cooking until the 40 minutes is over, you just need to remove the heat right away, and stir for maybe 1 or 2 minutes. When removing the curd, you need to be as fast as you can. On the Alp, we take a cheesecloth and with our arms dip in and remove the whole mass. It takes 2 or 3 times to get all the curd, and by the 4th time anything left is too hard to put into the cheese, and you just eat it right away.

Likely the biggest variation at the cooking stage is that an emmentaler will cook to a slightly lower temperature. We cook our hard alp cheese to 125 degrees, an emmental cheese is usually only cooked up to about 121 or 122 degrees. This makes our cheese a little drier, which also helps prevent the eyes from forming (we don't want the eyes)

There are a few option to customize the texture and character of your cheese. Do you want a true Swiss style Emmentaler? Then you want to make it hard and press it well to get very big eyes. Do you want a more American style Swiss? Then cook it to a little lower temperature, so it will be a bit softer and have smaller eyes.

The true Swiss style will age better, and an 18 month Emmentaler is a fantastic cheese (though not near as good as a 2 or 3 year Alpchäs) A more American style (softer) is more suited for a brief aging period (like 90 days). (There is a lot of opinion in this, I know)





Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 30, 2012, 04:30:09 PM
Alpkäserei, you deserve a cheese for all this information, guidance,direction and help  :D
I am now taking in all of the information that all of you have shared and will go over it until I feel confident enough to attempt this cheese once again.
so this weekend (maybe?)

Thank you all again ;D

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on October 30, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
I would agree...a cheese for really good detail.

Interesting idea with saucers to stir. I'll stick with my SS flat, perforated stir tool. Not sure what the real name is. I use it in much the same manner as described.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 30, 2012, 06:58:58 PM
The tool we use looks like a dust pan (we jokingly refer to it as such) and it is shaped that way so that it draws the curd more effectively, and also can be used to skim the cream out of the Gäbse, the shallow pans where the milk is stored overnight. This tool is called a Kelle (or Chälle in Swiss German, with that wonderful Swiss front guttural)

Also before we first cut the curd into big chunks, we use this tool to skim off the very top from the cheese and turn it over, so that it won't dry out and set up more than the rest of the cheese. For your bitzli cheese, I am sure this is unnecessary. But for a 40 gallon cheese, it certainly makes a difference.

One more thing, when cutting and stirring the curd you will get small pieces of curd that float up to the top. These we call Wildchörnli or wild grains. The rest of the curd wants to settle to the bottom of the vat. The Wildchörnli should be removed. Take a small wire strainer and skim these out and throw them away. They are no good. There will only be a few, and maybe you will not have any (they do not always show up. I think maybe they are caused by foreign matter like ash that finds its way into the vat before the cheese is set up by the rennet)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on October 31, 2012, 05:10:57 AM
I think the dust pan is useful for larger kettles. I have seen it in use there. My kettle holds just 4 gallons so a dust pan would be like using a grenade to kill an ant. I've attached pics that show what I'm using to stir and turn the curds.

I'm afraid you've got me again: "bitzli cheese"?

Good idea about the "wild grains". I do get those regularly and have tried to either avoid them when I'm collecting whey for my whey-brine or try to scoop and toss them. A strainer would work a lot better to just clear them out. Thanks for that tip.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on October 31, 2012, 02:52:57 PM
Great idea Boofer, I believe I will be out shopping for this Item today :)
anything that will help this make go in the right direction  :D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 31, 2012, 04:11:44 PM
I'm afraid you've got me again: "bitzli cheese"?

Sorry, didn't even think about that one. I'm used to that word, around here everybody knows it. But maybe since most of the people I know also know a dialect of German...

The word means 'small' you might otherwise in English say bitty, or bitsy, or something like that.

Ya I know the Kelle would be a little much for a 5 gallon cheese, that's why I thought maybe saucers. What you have there would work too.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 01, 2012, 07:32:05 PM
As I said I am reading all of this great information ^-^
in the process of trying to see it in my minds eye it wasn't getting very clear and Had some questions and started to search,
and everything Alpkäserei has tried to explain is in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w8oNMXcVNE#)
it may be I can't understand the language, I can understand what is happening,
now all I have to do is improvise and apply it to my bitzli cheese make ;)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 01, 2012, 08:44:26 PM
So...what is he doing at 3:55? It appears the curds are not fully set, in fact they seem to be just beginning to set, yet he is doing something to them..later he cuts the curds (once set).
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 01, 2012, 10:22:26 PM
It is either what Alpkäserei called the first cut where you cut the curd in big piece's or where he said they cut the top off of the curd so it doesn't jell faster than the rest of the make, not sure but I think it is the first cut.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 01, 2012, 11:15:25 PM
Yes that is a good video. Even though it is from Austria (so it is very hard for me to understand a lot of what he is saying) the process is very similar.

What you are asking about is the turning over of the cheese. The curd is set good, you do not want it to set until it is hard. That is the right time to begin cutting. As soon as the top is turned over, you cut coarsely. You see if you look close, the break is clean when he tests it with a knife (I always just use my finger) . But it is not set hard. This will cause problems if you set more than this (most people apparently make their emmentaler cheeses too hard, and this is probably why)

Here you can see everything well. He turns the top over and then cuts coarsely with the harp, then stirs with the Kelle to pull up the bottom, and then cuts again with the harp, all while watching the cheese to make sure the culture is working right. See how small he cuts the curd? You don't want that for a 5 pound cheese! Go much bigger.

Here is another video, though it doesn't show quite as much.
Alpkäse im Muotathal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvl6JyYHuk8#)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 02, 2012, 12:26:30 AM
OK something I am not sure of, Temps,
1. heating the milk at the start and as you suggest adding my cultures before it is heated to?
2. The correct temp 90 deg.F?
3. then rennet at this temp?
4. stirring at said temp for 30 min after clean break and double curd cut before scalding?
5. scalding temp 121 deg. F?(with a constant stir and a 40 minute temp rise?)
I know where my thoughts are, what is your recommendation :-\
I am really lovin all the input i am getting ;D

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 02, 2012, 01:06:33 AM
My recommendation, do what your signature says.  ;D

Temperatures depend on your recipe. Look at the recipe you are using, and do what it says. For our Alpkäse, temperature targets are different.

That said, your temperatures are around what I would say is good.

What culture are you using? I assume you are using a powdered starter?

When we use our whey culture, it has been incubated overnight and when we put it into the milk it is warm and fully actve. This makes a difference.

For a powdered culture, you have to adjust. I can't tell you exactly what adjustment.

If you take your culture out of the refrigerator, you should be fine to add it to refrigerated milk. Then it will gradually get warmed up with the milk. If you do this, warm it up slow.

I would actually recommend you do something replicating the practice on the alp. Heat up half of your milk to maybe 100 degrees (precision here is not important). The culture is mixed with this first part. Then add the other half, and heat up to 90 degrees (or 91, or whatever number you want.) If you are not preserving a whey culture, you can fudge things a little bit. When passing on a culture, you have to do things exactly the same every time, or you risk changing the balance of your culture or causing it to do strange things. But since you are probably using an isolated single use culture, this is not a factor.

If you do the 2-part warmup, it helps the culture to wake up and get to work.

Add the rennet at the proper temperature.

Now here is where I disagree with the 'common wisdom'. Many people will say all of this jargon about floc times and what have you. What I learned is that rennet should be measured out in such an amount that the curd is set in as close to 30 minutes as you can manage. I suppose this is because a lot of cheesemakers do pre-coagulation ripening and shoot for specific coag. pH targets, but we don't (and we can get consistent results). We just have a different method of accomplishing the same goal.

Now I have wondered off topic. Let's get back to your questions.

1. Yes, I would say so.
2. Yes, sounds good. Only if your air is particularly cool then maybe add 2 degrees.
3. Yes. 
4. Complicated. Stir for 30 minutes after the FIRST cut, then finish cutting.
5. Yes, correct. Only I will add one thing, during the first 10 minutes the temperature rise must be very slow. Even the thermo Swiss type cultures don't like it if they get hot too fast.

Now like I said up there somewhere, if you are using a powdered culture (or rather, if you are not passing on a whey culture) then you have a good deal of room for error. yes, error will yield slight differences in the finished cheese but there is an acceptable range that you should shoot to be in. The temps you have listed land you right in the middle of that range.

 Since I preserve whey cultures, I have to be precise with all of my methods. The bacteria adapt to the process, and when you are all over the place then your bacteria can go off in unpredictable directions. Consistency for me means that the strains I want thrive and dominate. For you, constancy just means that you are doing a good job ;) You have a culture that is isolated and one-time use. I don't.

I am thinking I might put up a small-batch adaptation of the Alpkäse recipe. If I do, you can use that as a reference as the process is very close. Just keep in mind that temperature targets are different.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 02, 2012, 01:17:13 AM
A small batch adaptation would be awesome!  Looking forward to it   :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 02, 2012, 02:02:29 AM
I am just awed by all of the information contributed  to this thread  ^-^
My thought is Saturday, the attempt to place this altogether and see if an improvised 5 gal. batch will work out  ???
many thanks and another cheese to Alpkäserei for all of his tutoring and most welcome knowledge
will be keeping this updated just need to absorb and comprehend :P 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 02, 2012, 03:24:53 PM
looking at the video I posted at around 5:49 what is that device he is attaching to the side of his vat? and what does it do? :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 02, 2012, 04:36:23 PM
I thought this rather amusing but informative even with the language barrier :o

Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu9_bjLNotw)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 02, 2012, 10:05:37 PM
didnt look back at the video, but I'm assuming that's the curd breaker. It's just a flat piece of wood or metal used to disrupt the otherwise circular flow of the curd. This isn't necessary if you are stirring by hand, but if you use a machine that spins fins in a circle to stir the curd then you need one of these or else you won't actually be stirring anything, you'll just be spinning the whole mass around in a circle.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 03, 2012, 03:34:43 AM
do you think this will work as a stirrer after curd cut? 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 03, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
I would say you want something that is either solid or if it has holes they should be small. You don't want anything that the curd will try and get through. This  that you show might try and break the curd and make it smaller. But it would be a good tool for training it out when finished.

I was thinking about this, and for the stirring stages something with a shape similar to a paint stirrer would work well for a small cheese
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 03, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
GOT MILK? I do or did, it is now cheese and in the press (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) ;D
IMHO the make went perfect, well as perfect as I could determine.
I will put up details latter, I am so happy how this one came together :) ^-^ :D ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 03, 2012, 08:59:26 PM
looks good, have any more pictures?

isch ei guete!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 03, 2012, 10:05:32 PM
 Alpkäserei
I do have more pix', I will put them up when I re-wright my note's
I am contemplating my brine for tomorrow, thinking 1/4 cup salt in 4 cups of the saved whey at about 55 degrees.
any thoughts on this?
BTW the knit seem's to be excellent  ^-^
I Just put in in the press (without whey) for the 2 hour pressing period, I was thinking for the 4 hour press I want to raise the weight to say 60 Lbs. and for the overnight press at 80 or 90 Lbs. is this advisable?  :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 03, 2012, 10:41:34 PM
Just saltwater is good for brining. An authentic Emmentaler would be soaked in plain old saltwater.

Put the cheese into the brine, and sprinkle a handful of salt over the top side and smear it around evenly. If you do this, it's not actually necessary to flip it halfway through, though you may want to anyway.

What is the weight of your cheese? I would need to know this before I could advise on pressing weights. We use a constant weight for pressing -a big beam that puts about 300 pounds of pressure on our 30+ pound cheeses. As I have said elsewhere, we follow the rule of 8 pounds of pressure for every pound of cheese being pressed (ok, so I learned it 8 kilograms pressure for every kilogram of cheese)

Really, I don't know how much effect over pressing would have. On a soft cheese it might do quite a bit but on an Emmentaler I don't relly think you are going to put too much weight on it. There is an old cheesemaker's operation 1 1/2 hours from me, the beam press that was used puts 1500 pounds of pressure on the cheese, which was similar in size to what we make.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 03, 2012, 11:03:27 PM
13 minutes to 4 hour press so I think I will up the pressure some.
What do you think  the salt content in a 1/2 gallon of water should be for a brine?
we have chloride in our water so maybe get some distilled water and add some cal cl to it?
Just a thought ???
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on November 04, 2012, 02:30:03 PM
we have chloride in our water so maybe get some distilled water and add some cal cl to it?
You mean "chlorine" in your water, right?

Looking forward to seeing more pics of your efforts. This is really exciting. :D

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 04, 2012, 05:19:27 PM
distilled or spring water would be recommended. The chemicals in city water can be harmful to bacteria (since that's their whole point anyway). I'm fortunate enough to not have to live in a city, and we have good well water. So I use our hard water for all cheesemaking applications.

I often make my brines fully saturated, but this is also for a big cheese.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 04, 2012, 05:41:45 PM
Here are a few more pictures 8)
I hit all my target temps and drained the whey as fast as I could, then got it in warm whey and in the press.
I knew it was going to be fine right after I took it out of the draining cloth after spinning the cloth tight to get more whey out of the cheese ^-^
the curd was already beggin to get in the mold.
It was a little hard to get out of the mold after the overnight press, the knit, I think, could not have gotten much better.
I couldn't find a skimmer like yours Boofer so sort of did what Alpkäserei suggested, improvised with a tea saucer (just one) could not get any pictures of this process as both hand's were busy, it worked just fine, Thank you Alpkäserei :)
It is now in the brine, if memory serves, I have read to brine for 4 to 6 hours a pound of cheese,flipping half way through, the cheese weighs 4# 91/8 oz.
This is twice the weight of my first attempt ;D, anyway so figure 41/2# would be an 18 hour brine at 4 hours per pound :-\
I am thinking maybe 9 or 10 hours, suggestions anyone?

distilled or spring water would be recommended. The chemicals in city water can be harmful to bacteria (since that's their whole point anyway). I'm fortunate enough to not have to live in a city, and we have good well water. So I use our hard water for all cheesemaking applications.

I often make my brines fully saturated, but this is also for a big cheese.


I just saw this post :)
I made a fully saturated brine that is why I am thinking a shorter brine period?

Thanks everyone for all of this great information, this has went so much better than last time (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9541.0.html) ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: JeffHamm on November 04, 2012, 05:57:52 PM
Fantastic looking wheel!  A cheese to you.  Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 04, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
It's hard to give a rule for brining times like x hours per pound. This is because every tradition has different notions of how salty the cheese should be.

If I remember right, I think the big wheels of emmentaler are brined for 2 days, but I might be wrong. They also say 22 kg salz for 100 liter water. The rule for Alpkäse is 20 to 24 hours, but the mountain cheeses are brined less than the valley cheeses. They say this is because you have to carry everything up the mountain, so you spare as much extra weight as you can. SO you salt the cheeses less so you won't be carrying as much salt up with you.

Obviously at 30+ pounds, we aren't brining 4 hours per pound of cheese  :o
If we did that, we'd have to brine for 5 days. This leads me to believe that this rule is for more along the lines of Parmesan than Swiss cheeses.

I would imagine that 8 to 10 hours would be good.

Nice looking cheese, it is good to see that things worked out well. How will you be treating this cheese after brining? The makers in the Emmental smear them with salt and b. linens several times per week.

Now when it comes to aging procedure to get the eyes, I'm afraid I can't be much help. We go to great lengths to avoid eyes in our cheeses, so I only know how not to get them...
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 04, 2012, 07:01:54 PM
Alpkäserei
A quote from you on another thread
Quote
The wash I learned was simple. A little water, a little salt, and a little white wine (no b. linen cultures or anything like that). This makes a nice golden brown rind which really has a pleasant, simple flavor. The wine also does a quick job of making the surface uninviting to any molds. I found that even in my blue mold infested cellar in damp humid Indiana, this wash keeps my cheeses spotless.
this is what I wold like to try, do you have a basic recipe for a wine wash?
I do need to start thinking about salting or washing this one.  :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 04, 2012, 09:14:37 PM
Ya, basic recipe is:

Some water,
some salt,
some wine.

No seriously, that's my recipe.

But maybe that's not so helpful  :P

If you would use a quart of water, maybe you could add a cup of good wine and 2 T salt or so. Mix it well, keep it covered, and just use this same wash the whole time. It will get some slime in it from the cheese and maybe even a little mold will grow on the slime but that's fine. If you keep it in the refrigerator, it will be fine. I just keep mine on the shelf in the cellar near the cheeses. You don't need a whole lot of salt, but you also aren't going to put too much salt. A lot of people just rub with dry salt.

The proportions of a washing brine don't seem to really make much difference. It's the soaking brine that really determines the salinity of the inside of the cheese.

I did check out some information I got from a cheesemaker one time when I was in the Emmental, they would indicate that as soon as the rind is developed and dry you move the cheese to a warm place. But when forming the rind, it needs to be in a cool damp place. The PS needs good warmth to grow.

They also say that the cheese in the warm room will sweat out fat that needs to be regularly wiped off. 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 04, 2012, 10:49:15 PM
Thank you for the recipe, I will make that up tonight.
I will be taking the cheese out after an 11 hour brine then pat it down with paper towels.
put it in an ageing container for the night at around 50 to 55 deg. for the night. in the morning I will start the wash, daily?
Fantastic looking wheel!  A cheese to you.  Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
- Jeff
thank's for the cheese Jeff ;D encouragement is all way's nice to have.
Can't wait for next week, to bring it out and see if it will start the swelling process ^-^

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 05, 2012, 02:57:23 PM
Nothing disastrous happened overnight :P the rind is nice and solid and dry, RH is 91% and temp is 51°f ^-^
Now I just have to keep it this way.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 05, 2012, 03:12:41 PM
Am keeping an eye on this make...I may try one myself in December so it will be ready the following Christmas. Great looking cheese so far. I think before I try my hand at it tho I need to improve my rind smoothing skills since that is still one area I am struggling with.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 05, 2012, 09:21:44 PM
I would say wash daily for a while.

producers can get by washing their cheeses 3 times a week or so, but also remember they have climate controlled rooms, and wear lab suits to keep things out.

We don't have that luxury, so we wash daily.

If you have 100 kilo wheels, and maybe a few hundred of those, it makes sense to not want to wash them all every day  :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 05, 2012, 11:25:07 PM
Yep :) I plan on washing tonight for the first time ^-^
I will do that after I air my Stilton and wipe thing's down ;)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on November 06, 2012, 05:17:50 AM
I couldn't find a skimmer like yours Boofer
Here are some ideas:
A)

-Boofer-

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 06, 2012, 03:09:21 PM
Thanks Boofer,
I did  check out the cheese maker, my problem was gettin it the day before my make, that wasn't going to happen unless I could fin one in town :(
When you live in poedunk Idaho and the pony express is the mail system (not that bad, just seems to be) I just decided to improvise and geterdone ;)
I do plan on ordering one the next time I order some supply's.

Adding some cheese porn uh, pics, the cheese lost a couple of oz' after the brine yet it still weighs twice as much as my last one :)
the last pics are after the first wash I will do this every day, besides I like pickin it up and smelling it and talkin to it and OK! gettin a little excessive here :o
 at least the little nubbins are smoothing out, it is lookin so nice
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 06, 2012, 11:30:01 PM
The rind looks very well formed, and it took the brining very well. This means that a mature rind is not far off, and if it doesn't get attacked by molds it does not need as intense of washing.

What tool do you use for washing?  A soft, natural brush is ideal. A rag tends to wipe off too much of the smear that will form, and can make a streaky, bumpy rind.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 06, 2012, 11:56:59 PM
I am using a very soft natural bristle, it did a nice job (I thought) the rind does  seem to be coming along nicely ^-^
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on November 07, 2012, 02:28:03 PM
Dude! Looks so good!  8)

Glad this one didn't fall apart. ;)

A cheese to you for making it all work.

Yep :) I plan on washing tonight for the first time ^-^
I will do that after I air my Stilton and wipe thing's down ;)
This caught my eye (Yow! :'() and I thought I'd mention it. Quite often I will be servicing several cheeses at once (washing, rubbing, checking, turning) and I try to limit the cross-contamination opportunities by doing the youngest and least advanced-rind cheeses first. I don't want to put linens, Geo, PR, or whatever into the air ahead of a cheese that has yet to be serviced.

In your case that I quoted, I would probably have wiped the new cheese down first before airing the Stilton. But that's just me.... :) YMMV.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 07, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
After very little thought I did wash the Alp cheese before the blue :o (with a little memory  prod from MBH) ;)
And I thought she just looks at me with that deer in the headlight look and shakes her head up and down, She actually is listening :D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 09, 2012, 08:52:45 PM
Sunday will be 7 day's in the cool room, washed it every day flipped it twice a day and sang a little happy song to make it happy and content' an old Swiss lullaby me mom taught me (Aint nothin but uh hound dawg). ^-^
So I am thinking, bring it out into a warm room on Sunday and see if we get swelling, start the ageing process.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 12, 2012, 09:40:44 PM
Brought the Swiss out and letting it warm up, I do have a question though,
Right now it is in a transparent ageing container, my question is should this be in a dark area as in no light?
I have it in the kitchen on top of the fridge, temp is around 70º F and wondering if I should cover it so no light can get to it.
The cheese is looking fantastic and don't want to mess it up :(
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 12, 2012, 11:18:17 PM
sang a little happy song to make it happy and content' an old Swiss lullaby me mom taught me

Es schneielet, es beielet, es geit e chüele Wind. Di Meitli lege d'Handschüe a und Buebe loufe gschwind

In response to your question, yes you should keep it covered from the light
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 12, 2012, 11:44:32 PM
Alpkäserei thanks again for your input ^-^
Quote
Es schneielet, es beielet, es geit e chüele Wind. Di Meitli lege d'Handschüe a und Buebe loufe gschwind

In response to your question, yes you should keep it covered from the light

I placed the ageing container with the cheese inside 2 paper sacks I think this should be dark enough??
 and ok I'll bite, whats the first line mean ???
thanks again for the quick reply
H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 13, 2012, 12:39:48 AM
It's a real Swiss lullaby
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 13, 2012, 12:56:20 AM
 ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: cowboycheese on November 13, 2012, 01:10:38 AM
I am so looking forward to the bitzli version of Alpkäserei's recipe. I already look like my roomies dog when it sees a squirrel - with drool hanging down my face...  :)

Besides - my press needs more punishment ... however 1500 lbs would render it into toothpicks.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 15, 2012, 12:45:36 AM
I brought this out into the kitchen, the temp and RH are holding prity good and the rind seems very pliable.
I'm hoping this is what is supposed to happen?   :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 15, 2012, 03:57:26 PM
Nice looking cheese H-K-J!! I havent tried one yet (making), but it is on my list of makes to get around to one day.

A cheese for such a beautiful cheese! Keep us informed bud!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 15, 2012, 04:01:55 PM
Thanks for the cheese  :D  this one is kind of fun as I am still anticipating the swelling stage to start :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 15, 2012, 05:13:18 PM
The rind will be a bit soft and pliable for quite some time -this is good during swelling, if it were hard then it would not be flexible enough and would crack.

You still need to watch the rind, and maybe wipe it down once or twice a week. definitely flip the cheese a couple times per week, or the swelling will be one-sided (like a French Emmentaler)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 15, 2012, 05:24:55 PM
I have been washing daily after flipping and only the up side and sides, is this to much to often? :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 15, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
after the first 10 days, no need for daily washing. you want to let the rind firm up after this point, so just wash a couple times a week to keep t clean.

it looks to me like your rind is well developed (which means you have done a wonderful job at washing it) So it is certainly ready to be a little drier.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 19, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
I am getting some PR on the rind, washed lightly tonight and got rid of the few spots there were.
the rind seems very pliable, a soft rubbery feel to it, tried not to rub/wash to hard, the rind wanted to peal or should I say slurry up because of the softness.
the sides are bulging slightly yet not as much as I was expecting at this point.
The temp and RH are holding the same, I wonder if the temp is to high  :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 19, 2012, 03:49:35 AM
if you are getting mold, then you dont have a strong enough smear. was you cheese slimy and gooey on the outside when you finished the washigng, with a pronounced dirty feet smell? if not, you need to wash it some more
It is important that you use the same liquid for all the washings. we keep ours around all year. it never ge5s thrown out, just added to on occasion as we use it not only to wash our cheeses but to wipe down our wooden shelves. You want to keep the same liquid because it will become thick with the smear from the cheese, and wil incubate the natural wild linens that you are growing on the cheese
furthermore, in addition to insufficient smear this also means that your conditions are too wet. either the rind has not been allowed to dry properly or the rh is too high or both. are you still wiping it once or twice a week? this will keep the mold down.
I might have a look at the AOC xpecs for Emmentaler cheese for some more specific details.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 19, 2012, 02:38:30 PM
The Rh is running at 92-93%  I am sure I can get that down, temp stays 72-73 deg.f, I can bring that down if need be.
It smells like dirty feet with a tang :o
I washed it on the top were the mold was and it all went away, the bottom did not have any on it so I left it alone,
My main concern was how the rind  "smear" looked, according to your description It is just about right.
I have been using the same wash the whole time and it is getting a little cloudy, so I am thinking this is OK also.
The wash is made up with 1/2 cup water, 1 cup white wine and 2 Tbls Salt.
where should I be trying to keep my RH? am I to high?

thanking you for your help

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 19, 2012, 03:31:47 PM
RH is probably too high, should be 70-90%
Temperature is right

You should have more water in your wash. It is maybe a little too alcoholic even to stunt the BL. How does the cheese smell?

From the AOC conventions for Emmentaler
Quote
Im Gärkeller sind die folgenden Lagerbedingungen einzuhalten:
Temperatur: 19 - 24°C.
Luftfeuchtigkeit: 70 - 90 % relative Luftfeuchtigkeit.
Pflege: wöchentlich wenden und bei Bedarf trocken oder feucht abreiben.

That is to say,

In the Fermenting cellar the following conditions are observed:
Temperature: 19 - 24°C.
Humidity: 70-90% relative humidity.
care: weekly turning and when needed wipe dry or wet. (meaning, if it gets too wet, wipe it off. If it gets too dry as to be in danger of cracking, wet it)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 19, 2012, 03:37:49 PM
I'll boil some more water let it cool and add to wash,
Will drop RH this morning.

Thank you
H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 20, 2012, 12:03:43 AM
Trying to get the RH down, after checking tonight still needs work but at least no mold and didn't need to wash :D
I still think it is trying to swell.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 20, 2012, 12:11:08 AM
Looks like the start of swelling going on. On the Alpkäse, the amount of roundness I see on the top of the last picture would be enough for me to discount that wheel (because we don't want any eyes, and this looks like it already has quite a few small eyes)

From the color, I would say your smear is weak. It should have a deeper tint to it. So maybe insufficient linen growth to keep the mold away.

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 20, 2012, 12:31:14 AM
So what I think you may be suggesting is wash and create more of the slurry and leave it alone until the white mold starts?
 then just a light brush every once in awhile?
I'm just trying to get a handle on the washing and brushing part :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 20, 2012, 12:56:18 AM
OK, so I will try and clarify. I may say some things you know already, so just bear with me here.

First of all, a review of the concept of washing.

Our goal, contrary to what many people think, is not to create a clean cheese. Our goal is to make a really infested cheese. But we wash it in such a way as to discourage certain organisms (molds and yeast) and encourage certain others (bacteria, especially b. linens). People figured out how to do this by centuries of experimenting without understanding what was going on microbiologically.  Fortunately, we don't have to figure it out for ourselves since they did long ago.

Washing will keep the mold from growing. We are somewhat poisoning the surface with alcohol which quickly evaporates or is absorbed into the cheese and broken down, so it really doesn't amount to much as a mold killer after the first few minutes. But that brief moment does kill any small colonies that may have started.

Keeping the cheese wet is really the most important thing early on. Mold won't grow if it is too wet. Again, mold likes dampness. If your cheese is lightly damp, mold will go crazy on it. If it is sticky wet, mold can't grow (I suppose it can't adhere to the surface)

What we need to do then is to get our bacteria matured to the point where it will kill off any mold that tries to grow. We create a strong organism that eliminates its competition. As a side benefit, these bacteria also give us a nice flavor. This is where the smear comes into play. Every time we wash the cheese, we need to have this slimy cream worked up and thoroughly smeared all around. This is the environment where b. linens will thrive. We keep doing this until the cheese really starts to smell. But it should smell like dirty feet. If it smells like bread or like dirt or like urine or ammonia or any other strange thing then something is wrong. But this is unlikely to happen.

We can cultivate our own b. linens. I suspect that your cheese may not have had enough exposure to the air around it or to your skin to pick them up. DO you wear gloves when you wash it? Don't. You ant to let the b. linens that grow all over you spread onto the cheese. Do you keep the cheese hermetically sealed from the real world? don't, because your bacteria will have no way of getting to it.

If we use adjuncts as surface ripeners, then we keep it isolated and all that, but for a simple washed rind traditionally we rely on nature to supply our ripeners. Again this goes back to the goal of washing. Exposed to nature, there is a great deal of risk of contamination from undesirable organisms. We remove this risk by the way we care for the cheese. We make it an environment inhospitable to the likely offenders and very hospitable to our desired bacteria.   

This not only applies to the cheese, but also the water we use to wash it. In German, this water is called Schmierwasser. This implies that it is what we call a Schmier which would have the same meaning as when we talk of a smear ripened cheese. What we are implying is that our washing water is thoroughly colonized by b. linens or something similar. So this means that
1. The water needs to get some of the smear from the cheese in it. So don't wash your brush off before you dip it again.
2. The water can't have so much alcohol content as to kill them. Maybe your proportion of wine and water should be reversed. Twice as much water as wine seems like a reasonable ratio to me (I have no where near as much as this in mine, maybe closer to 4 times more water)
3. We don't need to keep the water 'clean'. I have never boiled or otherwise sterilized the water used for my wash. I just use hard water straight from the tap (which I know contains some bacteria, because it comes from a peat bog)

If you just can't seam to get linens started, you might just add a pinch of linen starters to your wash.

When you brush the cheese, be slow and gentle. But do it long enough to get a good smear each time. Also, flip and wash only the top and sides, never the bottoms. This will just make a mess.

You might also consider keeping your cheese on a piece of wood. Softwood. Spruce or fir if you have it. Each time you turn the cheese, wash the wood with your wash water.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 20, 2012, 01:18:28 AM
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy ^-^ now I get it, I may like a lot of wine but the cheese  doesn't ::) less is more.
This is so cool now maybe I can get this to work,
Another cheese for you and all your help ;D

Again thank you

H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on November 20, 2012, 07:19:39 AM
Very comprehensive dialogue about washing techniques. Should be tacked to the wall.

We can cultivate our own b. linens. I suspect that your cheese may not have had enough exposure to the air around it or to your skin to pick them up. DO you wear gloves when you wash it? Don't. You ant to let the b. linens that grow all over you spread onto the cheese. Do you keep the cheese hermetically sealed from the real world? don't, because your bacteria will have no way of getting to it.

You might also consider keeping your cheese on a piece of wood. Softwood. Spruce or fir if you have it. Each time you turn the cheese, wash the wood with your wash water.
Because I may handle three or four of my cheeses during a washing/flipping/rubbing session, I use gloves which can be washed off fairly easily between cheeses. Each of the cheeses has a different rind treatment and I don't wish to cross-breed them.

In that last statement, wouldn't washing the wood when you turn the cheese cause it to be wet under the cheese and possibly cause problems?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tiarella on November 20, 2012, 12:46:32 PM
Alp,  I really appreciate the details you add each time you explain this technique.  This time I'm learning about the wine/water ratio and the possibility of a pinch of B. Linens added. I haven't successfully done this whole thing yet but next hard cheese I will.  The washed curd cheeses I tried this on dried out too much in between because you hadn't yet posted about how moist to keep them.

I wonder whether you add this threads info to the other thread or collect it all and post it as a new thread under rind treatments or as an article in the library?  This is something I really want to learn because it feels like it solves one of my questions/dilemmas.  (how on earth can I have a cave with some wild rinds and some no mold rinds). By creating different buy-terrains on different cheeses it seems possible but I wasn't sure how to do that u til you started posting on the traditional Swiss method.  Big thanks!!

I have a cheese care system......I start by dealing with any bloomies: I pat them down (cheese police pat downs) and flip them.  Then I do the washed rind wheel care that I'm slowly learning from Alp.  Next comes any natural rinds that need brushing. Then I do the truly stinky cheeses like Rebs.  Of course I wash thoroughly in between each set of care but it would feel dangerous to do the stinkies or natural rinds earlier in the routine no matter how much I wash since I think it's likely that dealing with them releases a bunch of whatever they're hosting on their rinds.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 20, 2012, 11:22:43 PM
Today i'm seeing some white mold on the cheese, no blue, just wonderin if this is what I am looking for or should I wash it :-\
the surface is clammy not wet sort of sticky and clammy ???
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 20, 2012, 11:39:26 PM
Is it fuzzy mold, or is it dust?

If dust, than it is a good thing (geo) if it's fuzzy p.candidum than it has to go.

A lot of old wheels are of aged washed rind cheeses are very dusty from geo. It adds another level of flavor and isn't seen as a flaw in the tradition my experience comes from. I actually wish it would grow more on mine but it never seems to do very well (I usually just get spotty, light dusting even if I wipe it around and so forth)

You should, though, keep the cheese washed 1x per week for a while, we would do 3 to 4 months.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 21, 2012, 12:02:32 AM
I have had white nasty looking mold on one or two of my blues, you could tell this was not a mold that belonged on the rind as it was more puffy lookin.
got rid of that with vinegar, this white looks more like dusting, guess, I will let this go a day or two, if it gets nasty lookin I will get rid of it.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 21, 2012, 07:12:02 PM
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/IMG_20121121_130051_980.jpg)

Here are two cheeses that are about 4 1/2 months old (these are Alpkäse, and have quite a ways to go before they can be cut)
This is to give you an idea of what they ought to look like.

At this point, they are done washing and will not be wetted again. The rinds are drying off and forming a good hard coating. This will be important for such a long aged cheese as this, as the coating stabilizes the inside and also significantly slows moisture loss.
For an emmentaler, you may not age it so long and so you do not need a rind as thoroughly developed as this. Typical Swiss emmentaler has generally a light brown rind or even pale yellow because they do not age it for so long, so the rind is not as thoroughly washed.

(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Mobile%20Uploads/ResizedImage_1353523307006.jpg) (http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Mobile%20Uploads/ResizedImage_1353523295136.jpg) (http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Mobile%20Uploads/ResizedImage_1353523279113.jpg)

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 22, 2012, 01:02:10 AM
There is a spot of blue on the top to night, I just went ahead and flipped it, I didn't wash it :-\
I  will flip it again tomorrow and wash that side to get rid of the spot then flip the following day and wash that side.
then let it sit with no wash for a few days, flipping each day and see if it needs washed or wiped or nothing.
there is some dark discoloration and a dusting of white mold, I think it is coming along I will just keep workin at it  :)
Alpkäserei
Your cheese looks Excellent!! 8) would love to try some  :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 22, 2012, 02:00:46 AM
If these pictures are more accurate to the color (which is difficult in pictures, especially digital ones) then these are exactly the rind stage you want for emmentaler. If this is so, do not smear them anymore.

At this point, wipe them so they are dry with a clean (linen if you have it) cloth. This should not have the funky dark rind that my cheeses have for the earlier explained reasons. These cheeses of mine have a coating developed to the point where it is almost like a waxy coating on the surface.

To maintain these cheeses, all you want to do is wipe them with clean water (not smear-water), perhaps with a small amount of salt.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 22, 2012, 03:50:42 AM
I do have a blue  spot  on the other side I will take a small mount o the wash rub and leave it alone
Just flip, for another week and then it will go into a cool area (50 to 55 deg F)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 23, 2012, 03:00:38 AM
Like I said I have a few spots of blue, I used a piece of medical gauze and just a little of the wash and just wiped down the blue enough to get rid of it.
It is now nice and clean and back to bed, Monday will be two weeks in the warm room, lookin good at the moment 8)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 24, 2012, 04:44:25 PM
I flipped the cheese yesterday and it felt dryer than it has been so I used some gauze dampened with the wash,
I have diluted the wash with a pint more water, didn't rub/wash the cheese very hard just made the surface damp.
there was a few spot's of blue mold (very small) I rubbed a little harder to get rid of, all in all I think it is looking very nice ^-^
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 25, 2012, 03:07:25 AM
How's the swelling at this point?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 25, 2012, 04:11:29 PM
The swelling is a little disappointing, I thought it would swell more than it has :(
The aroma is very nice, I think Monday makes two week's at the higher temp
I will see how the swelling goes in the finale seven day of warm temp's.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 25, 2012, 06:24:30 PM
Are you keeping it cool?  I read somewhere that a swiss cheese is removed from the cooler environment after a couple of weeks and left a few days(?) at room temp so the gas producing can occur.

Of course...I have 0 (zero) experience with this type of cheese...so just wondering how that is handled, since I will be tackling one relatively soon.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 25, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
I had it in the cooler environment for 7 or 8 days to start the development of the rind then out for a 3 week warm period for eye development.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 25, 2012, 07:18:22 PM
Cool...hoping you have success with this, since I will be following closely, more than likely, your recipe and process when I finally do make a swiss type.  :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 25, 2012, 08:20:13 PM
Making my first attempt as I type this.  Just getting ready to transfer the hot curd into the whey filled mold.  Good luck!!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on November 25, 2012, 08:32:35 PM
Good luck to you as well!  Post pics and make notes please!   :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 25, 2012, 08:36:06 PM
YOU GO AL!! one more fer yer cave ;D
YES!! more cheese erotica!!! :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 25, 2012, 08:38:59 PM
Here's the recipe I found and am following.  I did a Jarlsberg a several weeks ago and after two weeks at 70 degrees I too am a little disappointed at the swelling but expect a different outcome from this cheese based on the amount of propionic shermanii used.  I doubled this recipe for a 4 pound cheese.

Ingredients:

2 gallons Fresh Milk from cows, goats, or both
1 teaspoon Propionic Shermanii Culture, dissolved in ½ cup milk
1 packet Direct-Set Thermophilic Culture (use 1/8 tsp. if using bulk packet)
Rennet, choose one:
½ teaspoon Liquid Animal Rennet, dissolved in ½ cup cool water OR
¼ teaspoon Double-Strength Liquid Vegetable Rennet, dissolved in ½ cup cool water OR
¼ Vegetable Rennet Tablet, dissolved in ½ cup cool water
2 pounds Sea Salt (non-iodized) or Cheese Salt
1 gallon Water
Olive Oil

Instructions:

Heat your milk to 87°F.   Add  the thermophilic culture and stir well.  Add Propionic shermanii culture and stir for at least 1 minute.  Cover and allow to ferment for 15 minutes.

Check temperature and make sure milk is no warmer than 90°F.  Stir to homogenize the milk, and slowly fold in the diluted rennet.  Using an up-and-down motion with your spoon will ensure that the rennet works its way through all the milk, so you can get the highest possible yield.

Allow the cheese to set for 30-45 minutes at 90°F, or until the whey begins to separate from the curd.  You should see a layer of mostly clear whey floating on top of the curd, and the curd should be pulling away from the sides of your pot.

Using a long knife, cut the curds into 1/4 inch cubes.

Take your whisk and stir the curd, slicing it into small pieces.  The pieces should all be roughly the same size.

Keep the curds at 90°F and stir with your wooden spoon, working out the whey, for 35 minutes.

Over the next 25 minutes, slowly heat the curds to 120°F, stirring frequently with your wooden spoon.  As you stir, the curds will shrink.  Keep the curds at 120°F for 30 minutes.  The curds should be small, and if you bite one it should squeak in your teeth.  A handful of curds, squeezed into a ball, should fall apart in your hands.
Pour the curds into a press lined with cheesecloth.  Work quickly; you do not want your curds to cool.  Press at 10 pounds of pressure for 15 minutes.

Using a fresh piece of cheesecloth, flip the cheese and press, again, at 15 pounds of pressure for 30 minutes.

Repeat this process again, at 15 pounds of pressure for 2 hours, rinsing your cheesecloth in clean, cool water each time and hanging to dry.

Finally, press at 20 pounds of pressure for 12 hours, or overnight.

Mix two pounds of sea salt with 1 gallon of cold water to make a brine.  Place the cheese in the brine and let it soak for 24 hours.

Take the cheese out of the brine and age at 55-60°F for one week.  Flip and wipe daily with a damp cheesecloth dipped in salt water. 

Age the cheese in the kitchen (or another warm room) for 2-3 weeks.  Flip and wipe daily with a damp cheesecloth dipped in salt water.  The cheese should swell and will smell “Swiss-ey”. 

Place the cheese back in your aging fridge (or cheese cave) for 12 weeks or more (click here for practical methods for aging cheese).  Flip once or twice a week and remove mold with a cheesecloth dipped in salt water.  Wipe with the olive oil, once dry, to inhibit mold growth.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 26, 2012, 01:58:16 AM
Interesting make Al ^-^ you should start a new thread so people can follow the progress of your cheese  8)

I brought my Swiss out again, flipped it, had some blue, just wiped it down with the wash generally to get rid of the blue,
I hope for the next few day's I can just flip.
the rind has came back flexible and just smells fantastic.
Still, the swelling is just not there, I just hope I have a few holes be it big or small :-\
I am now thinking of the next make and the things I have learned from Alp, I don't think it will be as stressful and should go smoother 8)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 26, 2012, 02:37:57 AM
how moist is the rind at this point? it seems strange to me that you are still having trouble with mold.it should be dryer at this point.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 26, 2012, 03:52:23 PM
It really isn't all that moist, I wonder if I should just be brushing it with a soft brush and see what happens with the mold?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 27, 2012, 01:31:15 AM
I think making sure that all thing's inside the ageing container changed daily with clean draining mats, wiping things down has help the mold situation.
Everything look's great tonight, the rind is dry, most importantly no mold other than a light dusting of Geo and b-linens.
So maybe some light brushing and flippin we can make this work. ^-^
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 27, 2012, 01:39:57 AM
you could do a dry salt rub as well.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 27, 2012, 02:17:45 AM
The recipe I used said you could put a light coat of olive oil on it to inhibit the growth of mold.  Hoping that works because that's my plan. ???  BTW It looks great!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 27, 2012, 02:31:42 AM
I am more inclined to use a salt rub, my thought on the olive oil is it will add a flavor that will not compliment my wine/salt brine.
at the moment I have such a wine enhanced aroma  I am not wanting to change it by adding another flavor or aroma to the essence.
Trying to keep the fruity smells with dirty feet happening  :o 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 27, 2012, 02:36:20 AM
Makes sense to me.  At this point I'm pretty much just following the written directions, well, except for that colby/merlot thing. LOL
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 27, 2012, 07:49:13 PM
surfin the web today, don't even remember what I was looking for I found this 1950's USDA pamphlet on manufacturing Swiss cheese (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=swiss%20curd%20harp&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Forganicroots.nal.usda.gov%2Fdownload%2FCAT87217520%2FPDF&ei=9Aq1UPHZGYHJiwLOz4C4AQ&usg=AFQjCNFcg66dUEp6_UWD0vJXqeSPKH1CnQ) 8)
I like readin this old stuff :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 29, 2012, 01:13:54 AM
Just turned/flipped, it was just a little dryer than I thought it should be.
the pictures are what it looked like.
I dampened some cheese cloth with the wine brine and wiped it down then rubbed it with some salt on all sides
Looks very nice, smells very fruity from the brine.
I will keep it at room temp till next week then it goes into the cool room.
I'm thinkin I'll make another just so it can age awhile, I know I am going to open this one early :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 29, 2012, 01:15:51 AM
Looks great!!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 12:50:54 AM
OK, a question for you Alp.
Last night the cheese was very dry (dryer than I thought it should be) I wiped it down with the brine and it still wasn't wet, Just damp,
then I rubbed salt on it, tonight when I flipped, it was dripping wet on the top and bottom so I just wiped it dry and put it back to bed.
Is this a normal thing after rubbing with salt or have I crossed some line I shouldn't have :-[
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tiarella on November 30, 2012, 01:05:14 AM
HI H-J-K, my cheeses always are very wet after I've rubbed them with salt.  In fact, it's created problems when I thought I was just rubbing down a natural rind only to have it get very wet and the blue mold coming back.  I've stopped rubbing with salt once the cheese has dried off.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 01:14:56 AM
Thank you T makes me feel better :) at least there is no mold YET :o
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 30, 2012, 03:24:40 AM
From what I've read the salt on the surface draws the moisture out of the cheese as it is absorbed into the cheese.  That would certainly explain your situation.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
That,s what I was thinkin
I don't think I want to remove the interior moisture I want a natural rind.
just not to sure how to get there.   
newb attitude ???
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on November 30, 2012, 03:49:01 AM
I found with my Jarlsberg that as I covered it with a tupperware cake cover it would be sticky, even damp, the next morning.  I left the cover off one day, actually 6 hours per side, and it dried out to a nicely colored dry rind.  That evening I waxed it before anything else could happen. 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 04:01:15 AM
I won't wax just trying to get a nice natural rind
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tiarella on November 30, 2012, 04:26:21 AM
I won't wax just trying to get a nice natural rind

Hey HJK,  I think there's a difference between the rind style we are learning from Alp and a natural rind with some mold.  I'm still failing with Alp's style....mostly (I hope) because I didn't yet have a full understanding of all the aspects at the crucial time for the cheese I was trying it on.  I am learning to do a natural molded rind using a mixture of salt/wine/water brine wipes, rubbing or brushing dry molds and being better at staying on top of it.  This said,  I know I am failing to maintain humidity levels that are suggested.

My cheese smeared with smoked paprika/olive oil paste turned out to be a very tasty cheese and I managed that rind by rubbing it when mold appeared, oiling another time or two and rubbing it with salt which I regretted the next day because it made it wet for ages.  But it did dry out again and the natural molds returned.  I feel like I'm learning the natural rind balancing act but I want to be able to do Alp's style also.

So, which do you want?  The beautiful pristine rind of Alp's style or a natural molded rind?  I'll have to read your answer tomorrow because the wood stove is loaded and I'm heading up to bed.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on November 30, 2012, 04:33:39 AM
LOL :D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 30, 2012, 09:59:31 PM
Yes, the salt draws out some moisture to the surface. It will sweat and bead, and then you rub it around until you get a good smear. This is a good technique for later on, as it will help to harden the rind. Although a lot of Emmentaler I have had does not have a very hard rind. Just washing it down with water can otherwise result in a waxy rind.

Any molds you allow to grow on a natural rind will create off flavors. In certain cheeses, especially meso-cultured cheeses, this is desired but with the Swiss and Alpine style it is a definite no. The flavors in my opinion do not mingle well and result in a 'dirty' tasting cheeses.

What is your RH at this point? You may consider letting your cheese out in dryer air for a day or two to harden the rind.

The most crucial period is the first 10 days. I am suspecting that some of you may have over-isolated your cheeses during this time. If this is so, you won't get a strong bacteria growing on the surface which will [not]allow mold to grow.

When you have salted the cheese, rub it every other day. You can just rub it with the dry brush (or your hands even, which I do sometime for salt rubs. Gets my hand all dirty but oh well it washes off) or you can rub more salt on it. The important thing is that you keep it smeared around all the time. This helps the bacteria and slows down the mold.

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 01, 2012, 12:23:02 AM
Alp,
Quote
The most crucial period is the first 10 days. I am suspecting that some of you may have over-isolated your cheeses during this time. If this is so, you won't get a strong bacteria growing on the surface which will allow mold to grow.
I am sure you are right, this cheese is very clean( no mold at all) I thought this was a plus  :-\
It sure does smell good though :)

tiarella.
Quote
So, which do you want?  The beautiful pristine rind of Alp's style or a natural molded rind?

At this point Just hoping to pull off a decent looking cheese that taste's good ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 01, 2012, 04:36:00 AM
sory, that should say that will *NOT* allow mold to grow. typing error, corrected for any future viewers
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 01, 2012, 07:57:15 AM
I think it looks beautiful.  Just needs to puff up a bit.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tiarella on December 01, 2012, 12:39:43 PM
sory, that should say that will *NOT* allow mold to grow. typing error, corrected for any future viewers

Alp, I really appreciate your support on this topic.  I want to become good at this type of rind.  Can you tell me what molds you'd like to have growing during this smearing around stage?  I think you've said B. linens but are there others too?  And if I worry I don't have enough happening does it make sense to create a wash with some PLA or something....or what is that stuff....Mycodore or MVA options perhaps?  I can't remember right now what those are for but I bought them recently and need to look up the info on them.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on December 01, 2012, 05:35:48 PM
I want to become good at this type of rind.  Can you tell me what molds you'd like to have growing during this smearing around stage?  I think you've said B. linens but are there others too?  And if I worry I don't have enough happening does it make sense to create a wash with some PLA or something....or what is that stuff....Mycodore or MVA options perhaps?  I can't remember right now what those are for but I bought them recently and need to look up the info on them.
Here's a cheese (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7719.0.html) a did using mycodore.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 04, 2012, 06:43:16 PM
Well, what is ideal is if you get native wild bacteria, mostly local b. linens. to grow on the rind.
You want nothing that will bloom at all -no fungus (mold), no yeast. Nothing that will give you any visual evidence of its existence other than color change.

I am not familiar with all of the ripeners, but all that is permitted by law for most Alpine Swiss cheeses (the actual Swiss ones, not imitations) is b. linens, and then generally it is preferred by most makers to add nothing.

When cultured b. linens are used for cheeses, they don't add them to the milk. Instead, they rub them onto the finished cheeses.

The basic rule of thumb is that if you see anything grow during the first few months at all -we're talking blooms or yeasts here- you wash it off. It might take some time and practice and you may have to experiment to find what wash mix works best for you. But again, the idea is to get a cheese surface that can dry off without cracking and that will not harbor mold. It may be that a few spots of blue appear here and there while the cheese dries off -just remove them before they amount to anything. But you should be able to let the cheese dry when a good washed rind is developed.

And to help understand the science here a little,

A washed rind in not a sterile environment free from any culturing agent. It is not slat treated and preserved so that it can dry out and stay plain cheese without cracking. After washing, the rind is chemically totally different than the cheese inside, and this is why it protects and preserves the insides of your cheese.
Bacteria grow on the surface of the cheese, consuming fats, proteins, and sugars and releasing certain by products (this is the basis of the 'Schmier'. This will first be a somewhat thin paste, more like dirty wash brine. Over time, it gets thicker and pastier as the bacteria dissolves more of the surface and turns it into paste. In theory, once the smear is well formed all you need to do is rub it down with dry salt, but I usually keep washing it with the brine to add flavors.  As the paste dries out, it gets like a wax that can easily rub off of the cheese when you handle it. Wetting this waxy coating will turn it back into a thick paste. This will eventually dry out too after a period of months, forming a hard shell. The hard shell should get somewhat slick when wet, but not easily transform back into paste. The rind, of course, is edible. In general, the form-side (don't know what you call this in English? We say Järbseite, or the side that is against the form) of the rind will be harder than the top or bottom, and on an old cheese may not be as pleasant to eat.

It is important that no yeast or molds grow for any period of time. These too, will cause chemical changes and release their byproducts, resulting in off flavors. The combination of a washed rind flavor and a mold infection is, in my experience, quite unpleasant and you often have to discard the rind. You can generally tell right away from looking if a rind has had mold or yeast infection that were not immediately taken care of. They will have dark spots where the mold was, or other spots or stands of off-color. (In my experience with a washed rind allowed to mold, you first get wild blues, which grow and stain the rind and are then overtaken by wild whites)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on December 05, 2012, 01:02:43 AM
Bacteria grow on the surface of the cheese, consuming fats, proteins, and sugars and releasing certain by products (this is the basis of the 'Schmier'. This will first be a somewhat thin paste, more like dirty wash brine. Over time, it gets thicker and pastier as the bacteria dissolves more of the surface and turns it into paste.
Oooh, love the schmier!

Thanks for more detail on rind development. Another cheese for your enlightenment of others.

My Beaufort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10316.msg79165.html#msg79165) has a nice schmier going.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 05, 2012, 02:36:48 AM
Okay H-K-J how long before this swiss should start to swell?  Anything happening to yours?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 07, 2012, 10:56:31 PM
Okay H-K-J how long before this swiss should start to swell?  Anything happening to yours?

I don't know how I missed this :-[
There aint no swellin, going to put it in the cave/cool-box and keep an eye on it for a few more week,s
I will probably cut this one young, I'm thinkin on startin another one soon though. :) 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 08, 2012, 04:43:04 AM
You could always age it as a hard alpine, like an Alpkäse. If the PS has not grown, it is entirely possible it will turn out this way. But this would require a much longer, rather than shorter, aging period.

Emmentaler is flavored by PS fermentation, and its primary flavor is that of proprionic acid. If we have a mountain style cheese however, such as Emmentaler's cousin (or perhaps father?) of the Bernese Alps, Berner Alpkäse, then we have a lactobacilli-flavored cheese (that is, a hard nutty, spicy flavor) But this takes a lot of time to properly develop. You would have to let your cheese set no less than six months to get the right character, and over a year is better. 2 years is ideal, and 3 years is incredible stuff.

The nice thing about an alpine cheese, you can cut it in half and seal off the one part and let the rest of the cheese continue to age. It is not like some soft cheeses where the aging process stops as soon as it is opened.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tomer1 on December 08, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
Quote
you can cut it in half and seal off the one part and let the rest of the cheese continue to age.
Is this is when they melt the exposed end with heat over a fire?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 11, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
That is Raclette, or its precursor (some say just a version of the same cheese) Brätchäs. It used to be melted over an open fire and the goo scraped off onto stale bread, potatoes, etc. A tradition originating in central Switzerland. I don't know how or why the cheese ended up with a French name (I suspect Wallis had something to do with it)

A cut open cheese can be wrapped tightly with paper or foil or even the open end smeared shut if you want to age it more. In my experience, cutting open a hard Swiss style cheese doesn't actually have that much affect on flavor.

You can just even leave the cut end exposed and it will dry out and harden, this just will give you a little sliver of cheese that needs to be discarded. It is not like when the cheese is fresh and it will split and mold and all that stuff.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 11, 2012, 02:08:44 AM
Al, If I do decide to cut I can just vacuum bag maybe? :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on December 11, 2012, 02:37:44 PM
My Swiss-styled cheeses (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9667.0.html) do just fine with vacuum-bagging.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 17, 2012, 10:06:54 PM
I've looked into vacumn bagging my 4 pound wheels but it seems I would have to cut them in half first as the vacumn sealer I have, FoodSaver, only has 10" wide bags.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on December 18, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
I've looked into vacumn bagging my 4 pound wheels but it seems I would have to cut them in half first as the vacumn sealer I have, FoodSaver, only has 10" wide bags.
Are you sure they're 10 inch and not 11 inch? I think the standard sizes are 8, 11, and 15 inch widths.

I use the 8 and 11 inch rolls and the larger size accommodates my 4 lb wheels just fine. If you need a little extra room, DJDebi has a thread in here somewhere about making larger bags.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 18, 2012, 02:58:24 PM
Thanks Boofer, I'll have to pull it out of the box and measure it again.  I just bought a load of bags and thought I got every size so maybe the ones I looked at weren't the biggest.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 20, 2012, 10:51:34 PM
The cheese has been mindin it's P's-n-Q's looks very good ;)
I will have to post some of my pix's since it has been in the cool box/cave smells wonderfull
I have been washing it once a week and flippin it in between.
Finally finished up my make notes on my blog (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) it took awhile but Im-uh slow typer 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on December 20, 2012, 11:13:27 PM
Loved the blog!  Very cool H-K-J! 

Hope this turns out well...sooner or later I will be giving the swiss type a go. Love swiss cheese!
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 23, 2012, 12:08:54 AM
Gave the Swiss (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) it's weekly wash, smells so nice :)
will flip and wash the other side tomorrow then just flip for awhile, when I lightly push on the cheese it is quite pliable.
The surface is kind-of wrinkly, I think that started when I rubbed it with salt the one time Oh well :-\
It is now 7 weeks old, I have to fuhgetaboudit sooo tempting :P
I better get another Stilton going so I have something else to babysit :)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 23, 2012, 12:16:49 AM
What ya washing it with buddy?  I'll have to do the same to mine now that it's in the cave.  Been washing it with vinegar/brine to keep the mold off while witting outside of the cave.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 23, 2012, 12:21:32 AM
1-qt water, 1/4 cup wine, 2-Tbs canning salt
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on December 23, 2012, 12:37:30 AM
Thanks a million, I'll start on that tomorrow. ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 23, 2012, 01:14:40 AM
The wrinkles can happen, don't worry about it. As long as you don't see any cracks (which I don't see why you would at this point) there is nothing to worry about. There is a fairly good chance that these will go away eventually. And if they don't, no problem there other than cosmetic.

The cheese looks good. A nice color, a well matured rind for 7 weeks old. Wait a few months and you will see a beautiful deeper brown or red color to the rind, if it isn't first overtaken with geo dust.

Salt rubbing is something that should start from the beginning. It's hard to just break right into it. Though it is a very good way to go for a lightly flavored rind. With the route you are taking, you will have a very characteristic and noticeable washed rind flavor to the cheese. And mind you, don't cut off that rind when you go to eat it! This will wind up more of a handmade alpine style cheese, less like large factory made Emmentaler. I think you will be pleased with the results.

One thing, with a cooking schedule (temp, times, etc.) more like an Emmentaler, this may not be a concern but with a good alpine cheese, there is often a significant texture change that occurs around the 6 month time period. There can be a huge difference between a 5 month and a 7 month cheese because of this significant ripening time. This is part of the reason why Swiss law mandates that Berner Alpkäse can be sold no younger than 6 months (in reality, this will mean that you are always buying last year's cheese when purchasing from a small producer) AN under mature alpkäse can be rather crumbly and almost dry and hard. But the change that occurs transforms it into a smoother, more consistent, more palatable cheese. It is only after this change occurs that these cheeses will begin to take on their characteristic spiciness and nuttiness. This is why I try to recommend to people, don't go less than 6 months and go a year if possible.

Emmenaler seems to not have this crumbly stage. Maybe due to a combination of lower cook temp and the activity of p. shermannii. I would suspect that propianic acid would contribute to a quicker breakdown of the paste.

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 24, 2012, 02:22:41 AM
I don't know Alp But I don't think it will last more over 3 months >:D
I am going to make another Stilton (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/08/5-gallon-stilton-style-blue-cheese-8412.html) and then try this again, I have a few ideas after crafting together a recipe with the information from this tread,
going to go over it and re-read everything glean what I need from it to improve on my Swiss (http://cocker-spanial-hair-in-my-food.blogspot.com/2012/12/another-attempt-at-swiss-style-cheese.html) :-\
I will post (as I always do) and ask for guidance :)
as always your's and anyone's input and knowledge will be more than appreciated.


                H-K-J
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 24, 2012, 05:58:54 PM
You can always do this:

(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Mobile%20Uploads/ResizedImage_1356370135825.jpg)

So stored (the foil crimped tightly to the cheese) it should in most cases last a long time. Store it in cool conditions.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on December 24, 2012, 06:14:04 PM
Great Idea Alp when I get around to tasting it I will try that.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on January 04, 2013, 09:32:49 PM
I waited 9 days and washed again, no mold has grown on the cheese at all,
have been keeping it in the cooler/cave at 50 to 55 degrees around 70 to 78%
It is sure smellin good :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on January 04, 2013, 10:10:56 PM
Looking good buddy!!!  Thinking about waxing mine soon.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on January 04, 2013, 10:16:39 PM
I want to keep this as a natural rind but then again if I don't I will vacuum bag :)
I'm just not sure how long to keep washin it :-\
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on January 04, 2013, 11:21:14 PM
Well mine has plenty of rind but I've been holding off on waxing until the Double Gloucester was ready.  Hopefully that will be this weekend as I plan on doing a Wensleydale tomorrow and need the room for it.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 05, 2013, 08:31:19 PM
If you aren't going to age it for a very long term, you are probably fine to stop washing it now. Just keep a close eye on it for a few days to make sure nothing happens like mold or splits, but from the looks of it you have a nice rind that should be able to handle whatever you give it.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on January 05, 2013, 08:59:09 PM
As always, thanks Alp, it is always nice to have your input :D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 05, 2013, 12:17:34 AM
Brought this out to check on it, found 2 very small spots of a blue on it,
don't think I will worry about them unless they start to grow.
It is now 3 months old and we are thinking about cutting it, I want to have a look and a taste (maybe ;))
Hmmmmm ::)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on February 05, 2013, 12:44:26 AM
It is now 3 months old and we are thinking about cutting it, I want to have a look and a taste (maybe ;))
Hmmmmm ::)
What's the rush? Out of Stilton? ::)

You might want to give this puppy at least 6-12 months. Patience, grasshopper. ;)

Looking good, have a cheese for your efforts.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 05, 2013, 03:31:20 AM
Thanks Boof, I am Trying Master ;)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 15, 2013, 01:00:05 AM
I pulled this out to check and flip, I am getting a definite ammonia smell :o
I went ahead and washed it with the wine brine, going to let that dry and see how it smells.
I'm thinking this is not normal, any thoughts on whats happened?? :-\ 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 15, 2013, 11:30:31 PM
Well enough is enough. I took it out of the cool-box/cave this morning, had a slight ammonia smell, left it out to air awhile.
the smell turned to a earthy mushroom, very light, said to heck with it and cut it up, no real holes of any type which was disappointing :(
I was worried about the ammonia aroma getting into the cheese so of course we had to have a sample, my wife hates store bought Swiss
I have now 1/4 lb or more, less of the cheese she wouldn't stop eating it, so in that respect we had a success.
Nicely sharp, Swiss tasting cheese, I am sure we are going to enjoy this in a short time and I will be making another soon with a few tweaks I have been thinkin about ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 16, 2013, 12:45:09 AM
Well if you want it I have Tim Smith's recipe for Emmental and it's certainly different from anything I've seen so far.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on February 16, 2013, 01:12:13 AM
Nicely sharp, Swiss tasting cheese
Looking at the only pic that isn't overblown, STA75194, it looks like you've made a fine Parm. ;) Kudos.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 16, 2013, 04:32:09 AM
Looks good, the texture looks spot on for a young Alpkäse.

Does it have the proprionic flavor at all? Or does it have the sharp nuttiness and spiciness of the swiss, without the proprionic overtones? Knowing this will help me to tell you why it did not swell and develop eyes.

Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 16, 2013, 04:35:05 AM
Also,

These things need air. A washed rind should never be kept in a box. It needs to have a steady supply of oxygen in order to live (and the rind needs to continue living and changing even after you are done washing it, as it trasforms through a number of stages into the final form.) You get heavy Ammonia smells because the rind can't breathe. It might put off ammonia anyway, I don't know (we never keep them in a box) or it could be that some ammonia-producing bugs are kicking in when the oxygen is depleted.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 04:54:20 AM
I am in agreement ALP, just need to adjust a thing or two but  whatever it is it is lovely  ^-^
for a 14 week try MMMMMmmmMmmMmMmm 
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 05:01:47 AM
Looks good, the texture looks spot on for a young Alpkäse.

Does it have the proprionic flavor at all? Or does it have the sharp nuttiness and spiciness of the swiss, without the proprionic overtones? Knowing this will help me to tell you why it did not swell and develop eyes.

I don't think the PS over tones are there more of a provolone? love it as it is just need to adjust to what I want, OH but it is a lovely cheese :D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 03:55:17 PM
Well if you want it I have Tim Smith's recipe for Emmental and it's certainly different from anything I've seen so far.

AL, I would love to see that.

Went to the library yesterday and checked out Cheese it by Cole Dawson, I will be reading this today
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 11:29:31 PM
I went back through all of my Swiss type cheese recipe's today, and reviewed this recipe, not very happy with myself at the moment >:(
I don't know where I got the idea I needed only a 1/8 tsp  Proprioni shermanii for a 5 gallon batch, every one of them say at least 1/8 or more for a
two gallon batch. even the recommendations from the cheese maker say's 1/8th for two gallons, and now I am finding recipes that are using 1 tsp. for a
2 gallon make, now being totally confused, any recommendations out there for 5 gallons :-\
And I wondered why I didn't have any swelling or eyes ::)
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 16, 2013, 11:36:21 PM
I'm going with Tim Smiths on my next one.  Pretty sure I'll have eyes. LOL
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 11:41:52 PM
How many gallons are you going to make up? and if it is 4 gallons will you use 2 tsp. in it?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 16, 2013, 11:46:10 PM
Yes and yes.  Unless Alp tells me something different.  I may also go with a 6 pounder.  Started opening the 4 pounders and they are going fast.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 16, 2013, 11:50:40 PM
Have you opened your Emmental yet?
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 16, 2013, 11:51:49 PM
No, still have another month.
 :'(
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 12:22:54 AM
Here (http://www.culturesforhealth.com/how-to-make-swiss-cheese-recipe) is the recipe I used.  Calls for a teaspoon of culture for 2 gallons of milk.  I did a 4 gallon make but only used 1 teaspoon of PS.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on February 17, 2013, 02:04:10 AM
Here ([url]http://www.culturesforhealth.com/how-to-make-swiss-cheese-recipe[/url]) is the recipe I used.  Calls for a teaspoon of culture for 2 gallons of milk.  I did a 4 gallon make but only used 1 teaspoon of PS.
Interesting recipe, especially this line "Stir to homogenize the milk, ". No floc technique. A 24-hour brine for a two gallon cheese...? Expect the cheese to be salty. Too much salt is bad for the PS's health. Also, ordinarily when the cheese comes out of the brine, it undergoes the Cool Phase which helps to dry and harden the rind for about a week. Then it undergoes the Warm Phase. At least that's the process I've been following. ;)

IMHO, I think you guys are missing the point here with the Propionic shermanii dosage. Here is a sampling of Emmental usage:
From Danlac (http://www.danlac.com):

"Possibilities to enhance eye formation:
*   higher inoculation amount of propionic acid bacteria type 2
*   higher scalding temperature up to 40 - 41 °C
*   shorter salting time with a weaker salt concentration
*   higher pH after salting: not under pH 5.30 - 5.40
*   shorter ripening time in cool storage, with a higher temperature, e.g. 7 days    at 11 - 14 °C
*   longer ripening time in warm storage, e.g. 5 - 6 weeks at 22 - 24 °C
"

FWIW....

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 17, 2013, 02:31:42 AM
ps will run into trouble if the ph gets out of its range. this happens usually in a cheese like this by too long a warm period in the press.
i believe that some people overdo the whole pressing under whey idea. on many cheeses, this wont have any pronounced effects, but on a ps type cheese it will drive the ph down, which is bad for the ps. you only need to keep it warm for the first hour or so of pressing, after that we want it to cool down and slow down the growth of acidifying bacteria
also about scalding temperature, this is important for the texture of the curd, makes a harder curd resulting in larger eyes
the amounts of the culture here are not that critical.
adding more culture will not mean better eyes.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: tnbquilt on February 17, 2013, 04:51:04 AM
I made a Swiss that tasted like an asiago once. It was delicious, just not a Swiss. I have made several good Swiss cheeses since then and they never last long. I've been using ricki carrrolll's recipe but I am going to try some of Al's suggestions to see what happens to the texture and flavor. I am going try adding the culture to the milk at a cooler temp and then bringing it up to 90 and I am going to try cutting the curd twice.

I have enjoyed reading this thread and I appreciate all of the input on it.

My Swiss that I have now is 6 months old and it did weigh 4 lbs and I had put a tablespoon of caraway seeds in it. At first the caraway flavor was prominent but now it has a rich nutty cheese flavor to it. It goes great with corned beef. My next one will be plain
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 17, 2013, 04:48:39 PM
Thanks for all the help on this everyone, this has been a cheesy adventure ^-^
I will be doing another one soon, I am going to go back through this and put all of the info in a recipe form.
there is a lot of information on this thread,
at least I can say this was (is) an edible cheese instead of cheese crumbles like my first one.
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
I'll be making one soon also.  Plan on picking Alps brain on my recipe though.  I mean, he does do this for a living and, like the other pros on here, is very good about helping people out. ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: H-K-J on February 21, 2013, 11:39:48 PM
We took some marbled rye, pastrami and this Swiss (?) to make some excellent rarebit for dinner,
was so delish MMMMmmmm!  ;D
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Al Lewis on February 22, 2013, 03:37:31 AM
You're killing me man.  LOL :P
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Boofer on February 22, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
We took some marbled rye, pastrami and this Swiss (?) to make some excellent rarebit for dinner,
was so delish MMMMmmmm!  ;D
Yum! Hey, is this the deli? :P

Nice, H-K-J.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: bbracken677 on February 22, 2013, 05:13:08 PM
Man H!  Nice looking rarebit there!  I find myself getting a bit peckish for some odd reason.....
Title: Re: Emmentaler lets try this again
Post by: Tiarella on February 22, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
We took some marbled rye, pastrami and this Swiss (?) to make some excellent rarebit for dinner,
was so delish MMMMmmmm!  ;D

Oooh, I wish I'd been there!  I LOVE pastrami!!