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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 01:01:20 AM
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Okay I've done Camemberts and a Cambozola and neither of them ever got soft so I went back through my makes to see what might have gone wrong. First thing I found was the extra cream I was using was ultra pasteurized. The second thing I found was that I was adding Geotrichum per the recipe I found on the New England Cheese Making Site. However, when I went through Tim Smith's book, he only has Camembert, and the 200 Easy Homemade Cheese book, for Brie, neither of them said to add this. Not sure if Rikki is just trying to push product or if she really thinks this is necessary but I left it out this time around to find out if that was some of the problem. I also used the SAM3 PC I recently purchased to see if I got better results with it. I made a 2 gallon recipe from the 200 Easy Homemade Cheese book for Brie. I have 5 1/4" molds so it made up three cheeses. Now we see if they fair any better then their predecessors. Here's what I have salted and out of the molds.
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Now, with that said, here is a question for the pros out there, LB, Sailor, Alp, pay attention please. This recipe said to cut the curd into 1" squares, which I did, and stir them gently. I always thought, from all of the other things I've read, that you tried to keep the curd as large as possible to put into the mold. Am I not getting something here? :-\ Seems every time I set out to make a cheese there are 10 different recipes and ways of doing things. I usually try to combine the things that make sense from three different recipes to make a cheese but this is totally opposite.
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I'm certainly not the expert you're hoping to show up but I can tell you that I've heard nit's important, according to some people, to use the Geo for more flavor nuances. I think I read that at the www.cheeseconnection.net (http://www.cheeseconnection.net) site. That said, I started making Brie without it. I don't actually stir the curds at all.....I just ladle them into the forms.
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That's what I've been doing Tiarella. Largest curds I could ladle. I also bought Geotrichum just for making Brie and Camembert and now find that it's, apparently, not used at all. I have several different mesos that I can use for flavor nuances but it seems I always ended up with geo on the outside and little PC. Bottom line is the Geo is out if this works without it. BTW I certainly appreciate your input and experience as I would that of anyone else. Please, anyone feel free to comment.
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Check out this (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801)
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Thanks for the link Mike. Once I get one to actually soften like it should I can move on to more complex recipes with different nuances. Right now I'm just a beginner trying to get one right. LOL :'(
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I hear you--did you see my recent experience (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10858.msg82357.html#msg82357)?
My first cam (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10229.0.html) was nasty--the geo took over and very little PC grew. My wife also complained that it stunk really bad. The second batch looked good, and softened after about 9 weeks. The texture was great, but it didn't taste very good. You just saw how my third started, but I'm still hopeful it will turn out. I hope yours turns out well, too.
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Pretty sure too much geo was my problem too.
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Al, the 200 Easy recipe is what I use. I usually don't bother with the geo either. And I can tells ya that 19 batches down, it works just fine and produces a perfectly yummy cheese - as long as you don't do what I do half the time and forget to tend them at critical stages. :o
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Thanks Mary. I tend my cheeses twice a day, every day so that won't be a problem. ;D Glad to hear someone else is using and liking this recipe though. I used a straight meso this time but may try the Flora Danica next time if this works. I understand it gives it a buttery flavor.
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This recipe said to cut the curd into 1" squares, which I did, and stir them gently. I always thought, from all of the other things I've read, that you tried to keep the curd as large as possible to put into the mold. Am I not getting something here?
In classic cam made with meso culture, an issue sometimes is curd that is too wet and never drains fully. Stirring a little helps to mitigate this by drying up the curd.
If your cam never softens, of course, change it up to not stir, and cut to bigger size to increase moisture content.
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LB the ones that didn't soften were scooped out as large as I could. This is the first time I ever cut the curds for a cam or brie.
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What was your milk like? And how good was the cover of mold? and what temp for affinage? Too much cream, cams don't run. Too little remaining water, cams don't run. Too low of a temp, and they don't run. And a poor coating, they're not likely to run.
Have to balance everything. If they didn't run while scooping, curd size is not the issue.
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I believe the issue was too much cream and too much geo. Temps were in line with the recipe 88F this time but 86F for the last recipes I believe. Hopefully this recipe will give the desired results. PC coverage was not what I would consider good on the last ones. I changed to SAM3 on this one and will wait to see how good it works out.
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Temps were in line with the recipe
I meant during aging.
Too much geo.[/quote]
Possible, also possible what happened is not enough PC or not right conditions for PC.
PC coverage was not what I would consider good on the last ones
IMHO, don't fancy it up when you're just figuring it out. Use PC, work on the details and technique, and then play with the rind.
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LB my cave is 56 F with 85-90% RH. This cheese is also moister. The recipe I used originally called for the cheese to sit out at room temperature for several days until the surface dried. The one I used this time does not.
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Well here it is day 4 and the pretty white fuzzys are starting to show up. ;D
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Quite a nice little fur coat now. Had to sit them on the cheese paper to keep the mold from clinging to the mat. You can see where it stuck on the back ones. I pet them every day!! A)
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That looks great Al :o
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Thanks H-K-J!! Now if it will just keep it up and the little fuzzys will do their thing to the insides. ???
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Al, when are you going to put them in the fridge for the final ripening?
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Not for a while. They are less than a week old right now. I'll have to check the recipe again when I get home.
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Mind you, I'm doing Cams, but mine says 2 weeks or when fully bloomed. I guess I thought yours was older since it looks just about fully bloomed to my inexperienced eyes across the ether. It helps with ripening the entire thickness of the cheese. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801)
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Alright Andreas, the recipe calls for wrapping after about 12 days and returning to the aging area, not the fridge. It says within a week it will begin softening and will be ready to eat at 4 to 5 weeks.
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Just a quick update. They're still furry but not so fluffy. :o
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Alright, day twelve was Sunday so I wrapped these in cheese paper and put them back into the cave. I guess we'll see if they worked next week. :D
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Can't wait to hear how they turned out. Good luck
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They're doing great!!!
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Al, when are you going to put them in the fridge for the final ripening?
I do not put mine in the fridge until they are fully ripened and ready to eat. Once in the fridge at the lower temps, ripening will all but stop. I have made several batches, and the only one I had ripening was a triple cream I made that a recommendation was made to lower temp to 43F, which I did...and they never did fully ripen, and developed off flavors. The following makes I maintained temp at 50F for the full duration and did not wrap...they turned out great!
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The recipe I used does not call for putting them into the fridge either. I will once they are ready to eat but not until.
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Well this recipe worked just fine. Boxed these up and placed them in the fridge today. Really need to get those measuring spoons from Rikki. LOL Then I can add a measured pinch or smidgen. :o
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Al
you should be able to get those at any restaurant supply store, thats where I picked mine up at.
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I'll check Cash & Carry next time I'm there. Hate to pay more shipping than something costs.
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Well the wife and I had one of these Bries last night and it was great. Looks like I sussed it. ;D
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Great to hear Al, My first brie was runny and lumpy inside but the rind was great. I plan on doing another Brie just do not have the time right now.
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Well I have since sussed out how to make a good Brie and have been making the little buggers left and right. Thing is mine are a bit thicker than the normal ones. More to love!!! These are just 7 days old.
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Look good! My 3rd Brie is a week today as well, and has decent coverage. However, it was a bit damp (from whey) and every flip for a few days had the down side quite wet. It looks like some blue might be growing with my PC, or the PC is taking on a bluish tinge. It's dried out now, so I'm hoping it will be ok. I've had this happen on cams before and they still develop fine, but the rind looks less appealing (although apparently the rinds used to be multicoloured before labs separated out the strains of moulds).
- Jeff
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Thanks Jeff!! Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas. We'll see how they turn out. :o
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PC is best used at a ratio of 4x to GC 1x
congrats AL for persevering and i learnt much from posts,thankyou
i have always used both PC and GC together at the above ratio for three years and as yet [ fingers crossed ] no
problems
many regards ,brian
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I have found a heavy whipping cream from Albertson's "Everyday Essentials" brand that is not ultra-pasteurized. I am adding 2 pints of it to 2 gallons of whole milk. The curd is amazing. After adding the rennet I allow it to sit for 90 minutes to set.
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Here are the 3 Cambozolas I did last week. Coming along nicely. :D
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Those look a little thick, but hard to tell with no reference. How thick are they?
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Thanks Jeff!! Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas. We'll see how they turn out. :o
Hi Al, Kathrin added beetroot juice (I think) to one of her cams for valentines day and it had a light rosë tint to it.
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Those look a little thick, but hard to tell with no reference. How thick are they?
BB like my Brie, they are at 2" thick after the first week, about 2.5" out of the mold. By the time they ripen and are ready to eat they will be about 1.5" - 1.7". I use two gallons of whole milk and two pints of heavy cream to make three cheeses in 5.25 diameter molds. After 90 minutes of setting up with the rennet in it the pot is a virtual solid mass of curd. Very little whey left. It's the same recipe as my Brie. I decided to try and add some PR in the center of these just to see how they came out. The wife really likes Cambozola. ;)
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Thanks Jeff!! Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas. We'll see how they turn out. :o
Hi Al, Kathrin added beetroot juice (I think) to one of her cams for valentines day and it had a light rosë tint to it.
I may have to try some food coloring just to see what happens. ;D
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Al,
If this same recipe was to be made using fresh raw jersey milk with the cream, (I guess it is called cream line) do you think that the extra cream you added to the recipe would be needed?
Or, would it still be recommended?
They look great by the way.
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I added it to make the cheese richer.
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My first cams were made with extra cream....one of the results was it took longer to ripen. Hard to say exactly what the effect was in total because it was my first make and I think I caused some of my problems by lowering the ripening temp to around 42F which also contributed to the extended ripening period.
End result was some off flavor that I really cannot say exactly what caused it other than the longer ripening may have contributed to the issue.
Have had much better success since that first make, but then I havent given the extra cream another shot either....the thought of giving it another go has been in the back of mind for some time, but just havent gotten a round tuit ::)
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I haven't had that problem with the extra cream. I find that these bloom quickly and age just fine in the cave.
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I noticed that the rind on yours does not look as fuzzy as what I am seeing on mine, and not sure if your comment on petting them was just a joke or if you do lightly wipe them.
Should I be brushing/wiping them to knock down the fuzzyness? If so what is the reasoning behind it?
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Hi Seemunkee, bloomy cheeses do need patting down. Too luxuriant a growth of the PC causes slipskin and too rapid ripening directly under the rind. Sometimes it seems hard to pat them down successfully but they will subside a bit if you keep patting every day or so.
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Thanks, one more reason I had such a running batch the last time. I will have to start treating my cheeses like little immobile pets and being more kind to them.
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Thanks, one more reason I had such a running batch the last time. I will have to start treating my cheeses like little immobile pets and being more kind to them.
I am not a good example of good cheese parenting. :-\ I regularly forget to take care of mine. Maybe because I have noisier things to take care of; goats, sheep, chickens, cats. I have gotten better at cheese care...... The things I try to do are:
on bloomy cheeses I flip (or rotate if there's something on top and I can't flip them) so that they don't stick to the matting as the PC starts to grow. I pat them down as much as I can on the every three day rotation of getting around to remembering I have cheese responsibilities. :-[
on natural rind hard cheeses I use a bamboo scrub brush or surgeon's brush to brush the mold off the rinds when I remember and I prop open box lids according to how much moisture is collecting on the inside of the box and how moist I want it to be. I also wipe out moisture on the boxes when I'm checking. If a cheese gets too dry I wipe it down with salt brine (sometimes with a bit of wine added) or oil it. Even if it's dried out to the point of the rind cracking I have had good success at rescuing by using a brine wipe down and of course, keeping the box lid a bit more closed for a while.
on hard cheeses that I'm trying to keep pristine I've been getting into coconut oil after using olive oil for the first few months of my cheesemaking adventure. The coconut oil is easy to put on and can be whatever liquidity that you want for ease of use just by choosing what temp you store it at. I massage the cheese with coconut oil to put on a layer and then check it every few days and when/if any mold starts to grow I add some more coconut oil. It seems like I only need to do it 2-3 times and then nothing grows on it. If just a little something grows on it I massage it without adding any oil.
Hope this helps......
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I pet mine down every day and turn them at the same time. :o