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GENERAL BOARDS => DAIRY FACTORY - Butter, Cheese, Ice Cream Making => Topic started by: wharris on November 24, 2008, 04:24:42 PM
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I am just daydreaming here. Lately I dream of making cheese and opening a small shop.
So, I am trying to figure out the legal requirements in order to even entertain the idea of selling some of my cheddar and Emmental Swiss.
I have been looking at what licensing requirements I might need. Off hand, they look extreamly hefty.
The Wisconsin Cheesemaker License.
http://wisconsindairyartisan.org/pdf/ATCP_69_cheesemakers.pdf (http://wisconsindairyartisan.org/pdf/ATCP_69_cheesemakers.pdf)
I'm not sure that is achievable from my standpoint.
So, short of that, I don't what is needed, who to ask, or even what the governing bodies are?
Is this is state license? A Federal license?
Thoughts?
Any thoughts?
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Thought the same thing too.
I live in a REAL small "town" I guess you'd call it, where they have a small Farmers Market from Spring to the end of Summer. I spoke with some of the people there this year and they were all excited about me selling homemade cheese there for the coming year.
I would start that way. Find a Farmers Market and see if there is a demand. The idea of a shop and paying rent kills me. Zero profit margin.
I seem to recall reading that any non-store bought milk cheese needs to be at least 60 days old in order to make sure there are no hebbie jeebies in it.
B
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I have floated some trial baloons here, and there is definately some interest. Local grown, local made, organic market.
I really don't care about making a living at it.
There are two things would make me happy enought to try it.
-Have my milk paid for
-Know that others enjoy my cheese
That's really about it for me.
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Here in WA, I need to be licensed by the state and then only to sell wholesale. If I want to sell retail I need a food handler permit from the county, though there are temp ones available for farmer's markets.
I think the biggest obstacle, especially while wanting to keep it small, is producing the cheese in a licensed kitchen. I'm lucky in that WA doesn't require a *commercial* kitchen but it does have to be a separate facility than your main household kitchen. I'm actually doing some costing right now to see what it would take to build a small operation, maybe 50 gallons per day, as a part of a greater farm that produces other food items as well, including microbrewed beer (future plans for the family property). The nice thing is that I wouldn't have to buy commercial appliances like fridges, freezers, etc. But still will be pricey because it will have to be a separate facility than my home kitchen.
So I think it really varies by state because I know some states will approve someone's home kitchen, but then others require the food to be made in a commercial kitchen which drives the small guys out of the market. No one can afford to invest $50k to build a commercial kitchen just so sell a bit of cheese! So yeah, check into state and county regulations for food processing cuz everyone's different. I wish I could make cheese at home and sell it!
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One thing a lot of starter-upers do is rent kitchen space from other commercial kitchens. A lot of restaurants are only open for lunch and dinner or only dinner, well, trust me, they would love to get a little money for renting out their kitchen to someone who really could use it when it's not being used by them, thereby making some money instead of it sitting idol. A lot of bakeries are this way as most only bake during the morning. You can also look at establishments that have kitchens bigger than they use. So figure out if aging has to be at the same site or can be off site and approved for the home. That way you can make it at the commercial spot and then store it at your house. Or if the establisment kitchen is big enough you pay them a little extra, $50 a month and put your own commercial frig in there and regulate the humidity and temp. Mind you professional artisan cheese makers don't make a million different cheeses, most make one type of cheese, so one frig would work and should be able to handle a ton of wheels. Another consideration is most schools that have kitchens for teaching home ecc. or cooking classes very often rent their kitchens to start up companies. There are a lot of possibilities as far as facilities for manufacture. And if it's a kitchen that's already working it would be easy to get that checked off on the list for a license. Selling at the farmers market is a great idea. I wouldn't even get a business license at first or anything. I would just sell it and see how well it went.
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I am working on setting up a commercial cheese operation in Utah. Each state has different requirements. Some want commercial kitchens some do not. Your state department of agriculture usually enforces the food safety rules and regulations.
Also are you milking your own animals? There is a completely different set of rules and regs associated with milk parlor etc.
Any cheese that is not aged 60 days must be made from pasteurized milk. A commercial pasteurizer cost a minimum of $10,000.
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The Ohio Department of Agriculture (ODA) is my local regulatory agency.
They enforce raw milk laws much the US federal DEA enforces drug laws. It really is saddening. (the ODA part I mean. not DEA part)
I have come to understand that there is a sizeable blackmarket around meeting the need for raw milk. While I need/want that same milk, i do not need to be a part of that scene.
So, i do not have my own cows, i will have to restrict my milk acquisition to pasteurized milk. I feel lucky if i can get it non-homogenized.
Right now, i need to get more consistent with my cheesemaking operational processes. I have not watched my acid balance consistently, I have not pressed consistently, i have not stored/flipped/brined consistently.
But every batch i make, I get better and closer.
Someday, when I better understand what is going on, and better execute the required processes, i would love to share my cheese with others. Perhaps even commercially.
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We tend to refer to it as the Gray Market. We are always trying to introduce sanity back into rules and regulations. The very concept of sustainable and community negate the need for regulatory agencies. Anyone doing anything with integrity will not need regulation. Secondly, if I poison someone with my product, the entire community is sure to know it and that would be the end of my business.
But, as it is now, the corporate influence does not want to see it's piece of the pie made smaller by local people participating in food production.
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I hear conspiracy...but really agencies are there for a reason, for the simple fact that not everyone plays by the rules. Throughout history people have been selling things that will kill you no matter the consequence just to make a buck. Even today, china and their lead toys. I would rather have regulations than leave it up to the individual. Raw milk from cows with certain pathogens are very harmful to humans, I'd rather be protected. But I do agree coroporate sucks and do try to screw every little producer of anything in any field, which is sad.
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I agree, greed is powerful. We must remember that the pathogens in the milk get there because of neglect on the milkhandlers part. It is difficult to discard a batch of milk because a bit of manure got kicked into the bucket.
Regulatory agencies are not doing a real good job of it either. For example, the spinach that poisoned hundreds last spring. It took forever to find the cause. I think the answer is in the downsizing of the system. If the things we use are produced locally everyone using the product would know where it comes from, and free enterprize would eliminate the poor producers.
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Your talking about regulating humanity. That will never be a possiblity most people don't care about other people and where something comes from and the fact is that if a producer can get away with something and they as a person are already morally neglectful then we're all screwed. If we were self regulating and/or has locally based regulations and someone did get sick even if we knew the producer more than likely the majority of people won't care. It's very rare that public outcry leads to anything constructive. Mind you I'm not trying to argue with you, I wish things were different.
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Most [states require that you get a food license and be inspected by the food inspector.
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That's another benefit of a communal commercial kitchen. I've been searching for freezers on Craigslist and a few commercial kitchens for hourly rent are available, I think in the $200 an hour or something like that. I've seen other I think for $50 an hour.
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I am looking at a couple of plots of land here in Northeast Ohio. I may buy an acre or two and build mine.
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Sweet, I'm in if you need help, I'm so done with California.
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I build this 2 years ago.
(http://taomyg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p6hhVJd-wYjhPM8WElyD9WPdxqXwR8Yy6xTsgRvqKReJkEI2SsjRZhAbiAkDOKAJbnQyVmsAHjXQ/DSC06134%20(Large).JPG)
Inside:
(http://taomyg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pCH7m5s1bCSNm86Nnib_H7PbvFDV_bdOq0Cwg7BDh317rMiCvjEMfm8IxfSlPqIPK1OxMBy1nK1Y/DSC06137%20(Large).JPG)
Like to do a pole barn next, about 20X30. Complete with sewer, water, electrical. The works.
I'm thinking that with my wine and cheese, it would be perfect.
A Man-Fort!!
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Wayne, looks like a nice place for wine & cheese making, 20x30 ft would be huge.
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I was thinking that's where wayne wanted me to stay...LOL What's a pole barn?
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"I'm so done with California"
Yep. I bailed about 6 months ago. Now I'm going to get an IOU for my tax return and now they're messing with my unemployment.
Trying to start over again.
B
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I build this 2 years ago.
([url]http://taomyg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p6hhVJd-wYjhPM8WElyD9WPdxqXwR8Yy6xTsgRvqKReJkEI2SsjRZhAbiAkDOKAJbnQyVmsAHjXQ/DSC06134%20(Large).JPG)[/url]
Inside:
([url]http://taomyg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pCH7m5s1bCSNm86Nnib_H7PbvFDV_bdOq0Cwg7BDh317rMiCvjEMfm8IxfSlPqIPK1OxMBy1nK1Y/DSC06137%20(Large).JPG)[/url]
Like to do a pole barn next, about 20X30. Complete with sewer, water, electrical. The works.
I'm thinking that with my wine and cheese, it would be perfect.
A Man-Fort!!
My husband would love that, we just have no more room. Now may he could extend his woodworking shed some - he's already done it once, why not again?
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I actually thought about putting my wine/cheese operations out here...
Would cost a fortune to run water and sewer to this...
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Wayne I can run all that for you, I'll just come out. I do plumbing and electrical for a living. The hard part is digging a trench below the frost line, 18".
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Dude,
How damn cool would it be if you came out here for a weekend of cheese makeing and workshop planning.
I have plenty of my wine, and you can bring some of your mead.
That would rock
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Hey no better time as I work is at a crawl. Do you have snow? Because I ain't digging no trench in frozen ground, hell carbide tips on backhoes might even break in frozen ground. I guess we could drink lots of wine and pee outside to soften up the ground.
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LOL
You sure you don't live here in Oregon?
Hell, we might be related by the sound of it.
Brian
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No, sorry.
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:o (ears pricking up & swiveling) Mead???? Did someone say "Mead"?????
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:o (ears pricking up & swiveling) Mead???? Did someone say "Mead"?????
Mmmm. Mead. Melomel. Metheglin. Nom!
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Just figured out a way to sell cheese legally at a Farmers Market.
2 ways.
the first I can't do and that involves using gold or silver as a barter item. they are not considered currency anymore. But I can't afford, not do people carry gold or silver.
The other, have the customer purchase "tokens" aka poker chips, then use the tokens to exchange for your cheese. The buyer is purchasing tokens that they are then exchanging for your cheese. No "currency" is changing hands for the exchange of your cheese.
Any thoughts?
Brian
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Are these ideas you came up with or found out from someone at the famers market?
No offense but these are run arounds for the same end game and the law will see right through them. It has the same conotation as selling a customer a pencil and giving them a free bottle of vodka. If the famers market doesn't need to have a permit or copy of a professional kitchen that the cheese was made in then don't worry about any of it and just sell it.
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Cool.
I spoke with the people at the market last summer when I moved up here and they were all excited about the prospect of me selling cheese there. And possibly mead. I had mentioned my concerns about having to get the appropriate permits etc.. and they said not to worry about it. They said, "Your in the poorest county in OR, nobody cares about that stuff here".
I guess we'll see.
I thought about the pencil idea too ;D
Brian
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Go for it. Mead...alcohol, risky, I'd still do it though ;D
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As the originator of this this thread, I think its relevant to refocus the thread back to the original intent if i may.
This thread was all about obtaining the proper licensing need to legally sell cheese.
Not devising ways around the law.
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Sorry, it got so far down the thread I DID forget what this thread was about. Maybe John can split it?
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Gents, I could do, but see so no logical point on where to split so from now on in this thread just Licensing please, unless someone can suggest a split point.
Forum Posting Etiquette & Best Practices (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,735.0.html) reminder (I've been guilty of this also).
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No prob. I was just mentioning it to make Wayne feel better.
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I'm not sure about your area, but our regs are online.
We had the inspector over to see our barn for mods. The shed you built is close to what we have now, I need to flip some doors around, add drainage, a flushing toilet, more sinks, cement board walls, cages on the lights, and find an a/c unit for the aging room and we're set structure wise. Not bad. I think I might modify the attic of the barn to be livable since we have to add a toliet, to let interns or cheesemakers stay. :) I wanted to do an outhouse, but Inspector says no, must flush. :P But we have to check with the county if we can do a storage septic w/o drainfield, DH says a drainfield is easy to do, so either way, it's good. I'm just doing it bootstrap style so like to be cost effective. ;)
Then equipment wise, there's a guy who makes small all in one units our inspector approves, just need one dual ss sink for the processing room, feta/make table, brine tank, press, and ss shelving for the cheese.
Megan
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I'm new to cheesemaking still but I'm always a dreamer. I had thought maybe about selling my cheese someday, but more immediately interested in giving it to friends to share it, friends and family of course.
There is a new market close to my house that has local, organic, farm fresh stuff. Breads and cheeses and nice foods. I went there to buy raw milk and I told the employees that I was making cheese and they were really excited. The one guy told me to bring some in for them to buy. I said "legally, do I need a permit, or inspections or what?" and he didn't say anything and I asked "or should we not talk about that?" and he said "yeah let's not talk about that. Bring in some cheese." And I will.
So this thread is of interest to me. I'm looking into the laws and regulations for my state anyway. I want to share my cheese with other people, and getting it into a cool market would fulfill that. Also it's not a hobby without expense, so if I could subsidize my new craft with income from selling cheese, that'd be great. I'd like to be able to use nice milk, get a wine cooler for a cheese cave, have nice equipment, and all that.
So to revive this thread, I just wanted to talk about my experience today. I'm going to start a batch tonight and take them a sample this weekend. I'm also going to read up on local rules and regulations.
edit: wanted to add this link http://foodsafety.psu.edu/processor/resources.htm (http://foodsafety.psu.edu/processor/resources.htm) Resources for people thinking of becoming food entrepreneurs.
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The owner of that market loved my honey chive raw neufchâtel but won't sell it since I don't have a legit operation. Oh well. It would have been great for my hobby to pay for itself. I understand her situation entirely. I mostly print tshirts for a living and I turn a lot of jobs down that would be copyright infringement, when shirts would be illegal to print and sell.
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Someday I will.
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Someday I will.
Wayne, from what I've seen on the boards, I think you're the most likely one here to become a professional cheesemonger.
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I appreciate that, but there are those here among us that are infinately more qualified.
Which, of course is why I love this board.
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Right now in the state of Texas the county you live in controls cheese laws, but soon it will be moved under the state jurisdiction.
So, I am licensed by the state of Texas as a Grade A Raw for Retail Farm. This means I can sell anything made from Raw Milk on my farm. You come to my farm and purchase it...perfectly legal. Now, for hard cheese, (made from raw milk) it has to be aged at least 60 days to be sold at a Farmers Market and you have to have a Manufactured Food License and that you get from the county. I can't wait until the state takes over the cheese! Our state inspector is a great guy, but I 'hear' that our county inspector is not so great...have not met him yet, and am not looking forward to it.
I am not a fan of pasteurizing milk so I am trying to stay raw with everything!
So Wayne, you should check with both your state and county Health Departments to find out the who/what/where about obtaining a license to sell cheese.
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michelle if the state takes over, i assume it will be for all states? and how will that be better?
wayne i'm sure there are some artisan cheese makers in ohio. i think they are your best bet to get information.
i would love to sell cheese too. it is the first step that is the hardest ;)
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Wayne, I suggest filling out this form (http://www.agri.ohio.gov/public_docs/forms/dairy/Dairy_3500-003.pdf) and contacting the Ohio Dairy Board to find out what stipulations are required. They will have all the answers to your questions.
Ohio Department of Agriculture
Dairy Division
8995 E. Main St
Reynoldsburg,OH 43068
Phone: (614) 466-5550
Email: dairy@agri.ohio.gov
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I will do so, and let everyone know the results
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I mentioned wanting to sell cheese to my father, who is an attorney. He said that his church gives sandwiches away to homeless people and that the health department approved it as long as they have a sign up saying they are not produced in a commercial kitchen.
I know selling is different than giving away, but I'm curious if I'd be able to do that at a farmer's market... I'll let you guys know what I find out. There is a pretty awesome farmer's market close to my house on Saturdays and Thursdays.
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There are strict regulations surrounding the sale of dairy products. Your production must comply with state dairy ordinances and licensing, and you must supply the market management with documentation of such compliance.
However, it might not be that hard to get licensed. If you are buying grade A milk you don't have to worry about licensing a dairy just a processing plant. Most likely you will need a kitchen away from you living area and a separate bathroom not for household use, a three compartment sink and a hand wash sink. Check with your state dairy board for more info.
Christy
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I went back and read the earlier pages of this thread. Gee, I hate to sound like such a stickler for the rules but people do get caught. Last year a lady was ‘busted’ by the State for selling herbed butters at my farmers market in small town Kansas. They didn’t do anything, just told her to stop selling it.
That is nothing compared to what happened to another woman I know. A few years ago she was taking hard cheeses to the Kansas City farmers market and making a full out killing! When they busted her they took all of her equipment and her cows!!!
Since I want to be legal someday I don’t want to do anything to compromise my business or my goats :)
Christy
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The other problem with not being legal is if someone get sick (or claims they did) from eating your cheese you are looking at loosing everything whether you win in court or not (legal fe$$), and if you are unlicensed it is any legal proceeding against you it is another bad mark against you.
I dont think there is any insurance company out there that will cover an unlicensed operation.
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I mentioned wanting to sell cheese to my father, who is an attorney. He said that his church gives sandwiches away to homeless people and that the health department approved it as long as they have a sign up saying they are not produced in a commercial kitchen.
I know selling is different than giving away, but I'm curious if I'd be able to do that at a farmer's market... I'll let you guys know what I find out. There is a pretty awesome farmer's market close to my house on Saturdays and Thursdays.
Not sure about your location, but here on the west coast, dairy sales are governed by different statutes than sales or giving away of regular food. If you were to buy your cheese from a licensed dairy or processor, and then sell it without intervening modification, that may be OK. But if you touch or modify at any stage, then you are governed by state regs, as well as federal regs. I'm not an attorney, but that's what I heard from multiple people.
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michelle if the state takes over, i assume it will be for all states? and how will that be better?
wayne i'm sure there are some artisan cheese makers in ohio. i think they are your best bet to get information.
i would love to sell cheese too. it is the first step that is the hardest ;)
I have no idea if ALL states will move the cheese regulations from county to state, I only know about Texas and it will be better because our state inspector is not as big of a stickler as our county inspector. I currently have a good relationship with our state inspector.
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Kentucky government officials had a meeting yesterday. The topic was how to encourage more artisan cheesemakers while not loosening the existing regulations. A bureaucratic Catch 22 - especially for raw milk producers.