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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: Dethstryk on January 14, 2014, 05:38:37 PM
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I am new to cheese making and want to purchase or fabricate a vat. I am looking into either using a hotel pan with a countertop food warmer or a sous vide setup but unsure of which to route to take. What are the pros and cons of each and are there other/better options?
Thank you for your help.
Jesse
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Jesse use the search feature there is a whole bunch of DIY vat's on the forum
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I have searched the forum and that is where I learned about the sous vide system I was just wondering if anyone has compared the two or if there is anything out there thats better. Thank you for your reply.
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Hi Jesse,
A sous-vide or PID controller setup is the way to go if you don't mind dishing out a few bucks. I started out with the "stove-top/bain-marie in the sink" method and it worked just fine. It's just that the sous-vide method gives you a bit of set-it-and-forget-it moments, which is a welcome break, and fewer, if no, overshoots.
As for sous-vide/PID method, I would recommend any one of the 3 following setups:
The "griddle" system
Fairly cheap yet very effective. Very versatile as you can switch from full pan to 2/3 pan to half pan if you want. A poster here sells these. You can find more info here:
http://www.perfect-cheese.com/the-griddle-system (http://www.perfect-cheese.com/the-griddle-system)
The "food warmer" system
Any food warmer plugged into a PID controller. Very effective as well.
The "Sous-vide Circulator" system
You have total absolute control of temperature as the circulator assures precise and even heating on the bottom as well as all sides of your vat. If you want 88F temperature, the circulator warms at 88F, other systems warm at 140F until 88F is reached. Is it necessary? no. This system is fairly expensive, but at least you can use the circulator for some great meals. This is the system I have, I'm a bit of a "modernist" in the kitchen so I didn't mind this extra expense. I would only recommend this setup for a "modernist" cook. Otherwise, the other two systems are perfectly fine and are lot more affordable. Here's a pic of my 8-10L setup:
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To provide an example of the food warmer Spoons mentioned, here's my 24-litre setup. I was inspired by Spoon's sous vide setup but wanted something larger, and was fortunate to come across a benchtop bain marie for about the same amount of money as Spoon's sous vide controller. This bain marie has a full, 8-inch deep pan so I can do a 6 gallon batch.
Obviously I have the advantage of larger batches, but Spoon's setup has some advantages over mine:
- The sous vide controller has a better temperature control. The heating element in the bain marie is either full on, or full off. To control temperature, I currently have to keep a thermometer in the milk and turn the heat on in very short bursts, keeping an eagle eye on the temps at all times and allowing conduction to equalise. It's very easy to overshoot temp if you lose attention. By contrast, Spoon's setup allows you to dial a temp and allow the sous vide controller to do the work. I plan to fix this issue in the long-term with a PID controller (there are some excellent examples of this on the forum) but haven't yet got around to it. This will mean a little extra expense and the wiring involved with a PID. You can also buy plug-in temperature controllers but they are more prone to overshoot temp compared to a PID.
- The bain marie is prone to hot spots in the water. Ideally, one would have a small hot water pump to circulate the water: but this also adds to the cost. I get around this by stirring the milk well as it warms, and taking my time to warm the milk so I don't overshoot. The disadvantage to that approach is that I can't really leave the cheese vat while making cheese. I find that the size of the water bath and the insulation provided by the bain marie means that the vat keeps its temperature well once it's reached temp, so rarely needs to be topped up with heat except on the colder days.
An advantage of my system over Spoon's is that I can press directly in the vat with my smallish home-made cheese press (very high-tech: two pieces of wood, four lengths of dowel and some gym weights!). For very small batches (4-8 litres), I still use the stove-top, two-stockpot bain marie method.
The image shows the bain marie with a 24-litre (6-gallon) batch of milk in it, with thermometer on the left and spoon handle on the right.
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... Oh and I'd also like to add that it's hip to be square ;)
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HAH! ;D
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Thank you both Geo and spoons. That is exactly the info I was looking for. That being said I believe I will go with the sous vide setup but I am looking at materials to setup for a 6"full size hotel pan. I want to do a little more shopping around but once I build my vat I will post pics.
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Pleased to be of help Jesse. Do let us know how you get on.
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You could also check out what John is offering at his web site. Www.perfect-cheese.com (http://Www.perfect-cheese.com). And a couple of forum members have had great luck with turkey roasting pans.
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I got John's controller and will be hooking it up to an Avantco food warmer and 6" deep hotel pan, in a water bath setup. John was great to work with, and I can't wait to start back again, using his elegant design.
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I got John's controller and will be hooking it up to an Avantco food warmer and 6" deep hotel pan, in a water bath setup. John was great to work with, and I can't wait to start back again, using his elegant design.
Paul, you should share the link to that cool Avantco food warmer you found. That looks great and I can imagine others wanting it. In fact, a question about it.....is it a water bath method or is there a heating element in there and does it cause hot spots? ???
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Thanks, Tiarella, here's the Avantco (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-w50-12-x-20-electric-countertop-food-warmer/177W50.html)...I actually got it somehow on this forum, someone mentioned it in lieu of a very similar Adcraft (and $70ish v. $130ish to boot).
I have heard people just describe using the warmer as the water bath, and sinking the 6" in...knock on wood, that's what I hope to do. I have several 4" pans, but those won't give me the volume I'm looking for on my tommes, so...fingers crossed!
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You could also check out what John is offering at his web site. [url=http://Www.perfect-cheese.com]Www.perfect-cheese.com[/url] ([url]http://Www.perfect-cheese.com[/url]).
Thanks for the link Tiarella. I looked at Johns website and I will definitely be purchasing the temperature and humidity controls from him for my cheese cave and if needed the cave cube. I really like their design and abilities.
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spoons, what is supporting your hotel pan when it sits in your food container.
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Just wanted to mention, my Avantco arrived today, and I sunk my 6" full hotel pan into it. The Avantco calls for a gallon of water in the well for the bath, and that's what I did. I don't see the water level on the sides of the pan (perfect fit, by the way), but the pan floated until 3ish gallons were poured. I will see how much water I can get away with.
The warmer heats from the sides, like a turkey roaster; a big band that wraps around the well. Equal distribution of heating from the sides, not a point or set of points on the bottom.
In terms of pan capacity, I can easily do 4 gallon makes. John's Temp control arrives with today's delivery (man, that was quick - thank you again, John!) so we'll play with that later on, but for now, the Avantco is performing brilliantly in heating up my test run, 4 gallons of water.
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spoons, what is supporting your hotel pan when it sits in your food container.
It's a perfect fit. The food pan fits perfectly on the inside of the top groove of the plastic container. The food pan doesn't wobble, isn`t loose or doesn't fit too tight and get stuck. It's perfectly inserted. That's for a half pan only.
Also, the temp differential is great because there's only a small volume of water in the bath. That's why I haven't yet tried a full pan, I just can't seem to find a plastic container of the right size. I may have found a good match for a 2/3 pan though.
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Just wanted to mention, my Avantco arrived today, and I sunk my 6" full hotel pan into it. The Avantco calls for a gallon of water in the well for the bath, and that's what I did. I don't see the water level on the sides of the pan (perfect fit, by the way), but the pan floated until 3ish gallons were poured. I will see how much water I can get away with.
The warmer heats from the sides, like a turkey roaster; a big band that wraps around the well. Equal distribution of heating from the sides, not a point or set of points on the bottom.
In terms of pan capacity, I can easily do 4 gallon makes. John's Temp control arrives with today's delivery (man, that was quick - thank you again, John!) so we'll play with that later on, but for now, the Avantco is performing brilliantly in heating up my test run, 4 gallons of water.
That's good news Arnaud! You'll probably get some very accurate temps controls. Would you put your temp controller thermometer in the water bath then (as opposed to putting it in the milk)?
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Spoons and Geo, looking back over the thread and your rigs...very sweet. All my experience in brewing, cooking,etc., tells me that almost more than anything else, it's getting to know your equipment, your kitchen, etc. I really liked John's design, the inherent ease of use in just plugging my gear in, and going. I do know to watch as it approaches target temps, as it (if I understand correctly, from memory) doesn't have a slow-down feature, unlike a PID...which bursts in shorter and smaller increments as it approaches the set temp. I don't think it's a big deal....2 degrees up or down. I love that there's no wiring, and the probe itself can be disconnected easily. Flexibility, a very cool, elegant design. This is my vat for rebs and tommes.
That said, if I get a wild hair, I may just yet get that PID and enough capacity to return to my first love......M. le Beaufort, with Oude Kaas's true hoop, for huge wheels! (I would love a copper jam pot and an open fire...but as I intimated to our good friend Pav, sometimes reality has such an annoying habit of being so, real).
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Just wanted to mention, my Avantco arrived today, and I sunk my 6" full hotel pan into it. The Avantco calls for a gallon of water in the well for the bath, and that's what I did. I don't see the water level on the sides of the pan (perfect fit, by the way), but the pan floated until 3ish gallons were poured. I will see how much water I can get away with.
The warmer heats from the sides, like a turkey roaster; a big band that wraps around the well. Equal distribution of heating from the sides, not a point or set of points on the bottom.
In terms of pan capacity, I can easily do 4 gallon makes. John's Temp control arrives with today's delivery (man, that was quick - thank you again, John!) so we'll play with that later on, but for now, the Avantco is performing brilliantly in heating up my test run, 4 gallons of water.
That's good news Arnaud! You'll probably get some very accurate temps controls. Would you put your temp controller thermometer in the water bath then (as opposed to putting it in the milk)?
Not sure yet, Spoons. I think I'll likely just drop it in the milk. I love that it can be bent to shape.
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I agree that it's about getting to know your equipment, Arnaud, which is why I haven't got around to installing a PID yet. Controlling temperature manually is a bit of a faff, but I figure I'm there stirring anyway.
John's design is an elegant solution for someone starting out: sometimes you just want to make cheese, not play with wiring!
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spoons, what is supporting your hotel pan when it sits in your food container.
It's a perfect fit. The food pan fits perfectly on the inside of the top groove of the plastic container. The food pan doesn't wobble, isn`t loose or doesn't fit too tight and get stuck. It's perfectly inserted. That's for a half pan only.
Also, the temp differential is great because there's only a small volume of water in the bath. That's why I haven't yet tried a full pan, I just can't seem to find a plastic container of the right size. I may have found a good match for a 2/3 pan though.
I found this container on amazon. the dimensions are 18x26x9 which will fit the full size pan and leave room for the sous vide circulator.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D1ZTYY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1842KRTT9LNAG&coliid=I3395UIYSTPF0E (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D1ZTYY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1842KRTT9LNAG&coliid=I3395UIYSTPF0E)
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I'm fascinated by engineering, though I've no mind for its rigors nor no talent for it's creativity. You guys impress the hell out of me. If I had my druthers, I'd have one souped-up techno make room, with every convenience well at hand, and a small plot of land in an alpine setting, with a copper cauldron and logs for years of old-school, Beaufort makes. But I don't have the bod anymore to do the latter, and you're spot on - as much as I learned by doing Yoav's PID design, it's not my forte....so I leave it up to John, and guys like you!
edit: Just want to say, got John's TC hooked up, and it absolutely rocks!!! John, thank you so much!
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I found this container on amazon. the dimensions are 18x26x9 which will fit the full size pan and leave room for the sous vide circulator.
[url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D1ZTYY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1842KRTT9LNAG&coliid=I3395UIYSTPF0E[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D1ZTYY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1842KRTT9LNAG&coliid=I3395UIYSTPF0E[/url])
I've never been sure about that container serving as a water bath for a full pan. There'd be a lot of water, maybe too much. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.
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edit: Just want to say, got John's TC hooked up, and it absolutely rocks!!! John, thank you so much!
Want to see photos of your set up now......please????? ???
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What Ms. T said >:(
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Hahah, I will guys - sorry, after doing the trial run I ran out to Dairy Connection (now called "Get Cultures, for its retail end) for stuff for upcoming rebs (tommes first), so I broke down for the night. I promise to take shots next time. Thank you again, John, if you're reading this - what a fine thing you've provided. :)
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Hi Jessie.
the food warmer seems to be a great idea with not much fiddling around with....I bouilt a 40 litre vat from a stainless steel laundry sink and an outer skin for a water Jacket.
you can get PID temp controllers fron the net easily and the elements can be made ...soft so you can form the shape you want inside your jacket.
mine is up one end of the jacket and the water circulates by convection around the tank giving me even heating!
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Vat envy vah-t en·vy noun a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's cheese vat.
Thank you for sharing that pic, Mister Chicken man. I can honestly say your pic left me a feeling of Vat Envy ;) Nice work!
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I admit to vat envy also. ::)
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That is one hell of a vat Chicken man.
For those of you using the Avantco, where do you put your temp sensor? I just finished installing the temp controller, but not sure what the best place is for the sensor to prevent it from going beyond the range I set.
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Hi Seemunkee.
Thanks for the praise!!
I put my temp sensor about 4-5 inches above the element...Keeps good temp and heat spreads well with just convection!
Cheers
Ian
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So excited!! My Avantco "vat" is on its way! Now, I will need to order a temp controller. Suggestions on that??? Will it work okay to just turn the unit on and off in pulses to bring the water up to temp until I get the controller wired in?
Susan
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So excited!! My Avantco "vat" is on its way! Now, I will need to order a temp controller. Suggestions on that???
How fun!!! You'll love having a rectangular vat. "it's hip to be square". LOL! JohnPC sells some good temp control units. You can even choose one of 3 types of sensor probes. Ask him what the advantages are and which one will suit you best. He also sells a great curd knife for rectangular vats. Here's his website.
http://www.perfect-cheese.com/temperature-controller (http://www.perfect-cheese.com/temperature-controller)
Will it work okay to just turn the unit on and off in pulses to bring the water up to temp until I get the controller wired in?
It will work ok. Just be careful doing it manually because the minimum temp when heating is 140F I believe.
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So excited!! My Avantco "vat" is on its way! Now, I will need to order a temp controller. Suggestions on that??? Will it work okay to just turn the unit on and off in pulses to bring the water up to temp until I get the controller wired in?
Susan
I used this one
http://www.amazon.com/AGPtek-All-purpose-Temperature-Controller-STC-1000/dp/B00862G3TQ (http://www.amazon.com/AGPtek-All-purpose-Temperature-Controller-STC-1000/dp/B00862G3TQ)
Found this useful for the wiring diagram
http://benstarr.com/tag/stc-1000/ (http://benstarr.com/tag/stc-1000/)
Just remember that the coil will carry over residual heat.
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Hi.
I thionk youll find that the water will hold temp really well when you get to set temp!
Ian
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I did a test run with 4 gallons of water in the 6 inch deep pan. I used a thermometer in the pan with the 4 gallons, with a lid on. The temp controller on the unit is numbered. On number 1, it took about one hour to increase the water temp 10 degrees, and when I turned the unit off, the temp gradually increased another 3 degrees. Later I did a run on number 2. It took about 30 mins to increase 10 degrees, and again when I turned it off there was a 3 degree creep. Then I tried to see how hot it would get on maximum temp. It topped out at about 160 degrees. So with that in mind, I may try keeping a close eye and turning the heat down as I get within about 5 degrees of target.
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Man oh man I've been quite struck with vat envy seeing this post. I must make one!
For all of you that have purchased the Avantco warmer, has it performed to your liking? It seems so inexpensive! What is the source of heat with the Avantco? Arnaud: you mentioned a heating band. What kind of power drives that?
Is there anyone using PIDs with it yet? I'm set to move forward but am intimidated with PID programming especially since each model is programmed uniquely. Would love to draw on your experiences with it especially the PID programming language. And could anyone explain what ramp soak is?
Any ideas about circulation pumps? I expect there would be large variations with heat distribution. I would prefer to not drill holes in the warmer for an exterior circulating pump. Is there a device that can sit in the water bath distribute heat instead?
Cheeses and thanks for your help. :)
Nathan
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Any ideas about circulation pumps? I expect there would be large variations with heat distribution. I would prefer to not drill holes in the warmer for an exterior circulating pump. Is there a device that can sit in the water bath distribute heat instead?
Cheeses and thanks for your help. :)
Nathan
There is no circulation in this type of setup. Some food warmers only have a heat source on the bottom, so that could be a slight inconsistency. Pretty much everybody makes very successful cheeses in this type of setup regardless.
If you're looking for a water bath circulation setup check out my 8L and 16L vats. I posted this in your Beaufort thread:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10147.msg93356.html#msg93356 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10147.msg93356.html#msg93356)
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12461.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12461.0.html)
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Wow Spoons you are doing a very good job at changing my mind towards this kind of set up. If the power is all there with sous vides this may be the best way to go. An added bonus is the cooking options with it too! Cheese to you with my thanks!
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Wow Spoons you are doing a very good job at changing my mind towards this kind of set up. If the power is all there with sous vides this may be the best way to go. An added bonus is the cooking options with it too! Cheese to you with my thanks!
Thanks! The funny thing is, if you are making a Parmesan cheese, you can put a vac-sealed steak in the water bath at the same time. You'll end up making an awesome parm and a delicious rare steak at the same time ;)
IMPORTANT about sous-vide circulators (for cheesemaking) : Heater wattage and circulation rate are REALLY IMPORTANT. I would say the minimum for a 16L vat would be: 1KW heater and 12L/min circulation. The Anova and Sansaire both have those specs.
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The funny thing is, if you are making a Parmesan cheese, you can put a vac-sealed steak in the water bath at the same time. You'll end up making an awesome parm and a delicious rare steak at the same time ;)
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Oh my God I had a good laugh at that one... but funny enough I may end up doing it! Cheese making sure makes you hungry alright!
I fully understand what you mean about sous vide wattage. I will definitely get a powerful one especially considering my thermo makes of 16 liters +. Ar there options of even more than a 1 kW-12 liters per minute output?
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I fully understand what you mean about sous vide wattage. I will definitely get a powerful one especially considering my thermo makes of 16 liters +. Ar there options of even more than a 1 kW-12 liters per minute output?
I only saw the Polyscience circulators (the higher end one) that has a higher output, but it's ridiculously priced at over $1000 if I remember well. But then again, I haven't shopped circulators since I bought mine last Fall.
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Egad! Ok I think a 1 kW will have to do the job. I'll for sure be researching and shopping around first after I talk to the chef at my restaurant about it.
Thanks for the help Spoons! Really appreciated.