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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: BobE102330 on February 12, 2013, 02:02:27 AM

Title: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 12, 2013, 02:02:27 AM
Inspired by Alpkäserei's posts, I made a mutschli (I think) using his recipe. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10178.msg75470.html#msg75470 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10178.msg75470.html#msg75470)

I added the culture at 90 degrees and heated to 105 and added the rennet. For some reason I forgot to check floc time, but I used the same amount of rennet as Saturdays  I cut after 35 minutes, and stirred as directed.  After 40 minutes the temperature had only fallen to 100 degrees, so no extra heat.  I guess I should have taken it out of the water bath.  I stirred for another 30 minutes. 

After draining, the curds didn't really stick together, so rather than knead I pressed in a 7.5" tomme mold. Initially the curds wouldn't fit in the mold, but after pressing at 35 pounds for 30 minutes it just about fit into the mold.  Pressed at 35 pounds for another hour, flipped and pressed for 12 hours at 70 pounds. 

By morning, I had a huge fairly soft cheese.  Starting with 3.5 gallons of milk I ended up with 5 pounds 4 ounces of cheese that just barely fit in the mold.  The same amount of milk made a bit over 3 pounds of Jarlsberg using the recipe in 200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes. 

Obviously, I didn't expel enough whey.  Assuming I remember to measure the floc time next go around, what should I use for a multiplier? Is 2 reasonable?  I'm sure kneading kneading would have helped, but how to do it when curds don't stick together?

I plan to wash daily as directed, but I'm thinking that with this moisture content it shouldn't age long.  Suggestions? 

Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 12, 2013, 02:40:07 AM
You did not brew the curd at all, and so the culture did not adequately acidify the curd. This is why it would not mat properly.

Also, I do not see any secondary heating mentioned. The reheating up to 105 is not prior to rennet, Rennet should go in at 90-91 degrees. This is important. The heating to 105 is after the curd has been cut and brewed for 30 minutes.
So progression should look more like:
-Culture @ 90 degrees, if freeze dried culture than incubate 15-20 minutes or so
-Rennet @ 90 degrees, sufficient amount to set curd in 30 minutes (these cheeses do not use the floc method, but use the rennet measured out at specific amounts as to set the curd properly in 30 minutes. I can see floc methods being a benefit in other cheese type, but we never do so with alpines)
-Cut slowly during a period that should take a total of nearly 20 minutes
-brew curd for 30 minutes to develop cultures
-reheat up to 105-110 F over a period of about 15 to 20 minutes
-knead curd into form and press.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 12, 2013, 03:33:24 AM
Thank you Alp!  I misunderstood your recipe.  I read "heat the milk with the culture added" and assumed that this was a new to me technique.  Newbies like me tend to take things literally.  I'll give this another shot soon.

Any ideas what to do with the current block of curd to make it something edible?

Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 12, 2013, 03:38:21 AM
It will be fine, just not an Alpine cheese.

It has a lot of moisture, so I would not age it for very long at all. This would be very similar to how some goat cheeses are made, so it is fine for a 'fresh' cheese (an entirely relative term)

Maybe you could even try and grow some white mold on it instead of the washed rind method. 
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 12, 2013, 04:01:36 AM
Thanks.  PC it is!
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 22, 2013, 12:50:55 AM
curious as to how this cheese is developing...
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 22, 2013, 01:18:05 AM
Other aspects of life took over and I didn't get around to spraying with PC.  I've been eating it as a substitute for queso fresco.  It also went over well on a cheese plate last weekend.  What does it say about my cheese making skill that two mistakes were the favorites? This mild one and a b. linens covered iberico that was almost limburger stinky beat out my best montasio to date. 

This cheese is so moist it left a puddle on the board.  Tasty but could use a bit more salt.  Thanks for asking.  I plan another attempt at mutschli this weekend following your guidance. 
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: bbracken677 on February 22, 2013, 05:17:29 PM

-Rennet @ 90 degrees, sufficient amount to set curd in 30 minutes (these cheeses do not use the floc method, but use the rennet measured out at specific amounts as to set the curd properly in 30 minutes. I can see floc methods being a benefit in other cheese type, but we never do so with alpines)


You basically just described a floc factor of 2. The ideal being set in 30 minutes with a 15 minute ideal flocculation. 15 x 2 = 30 minutes from when rennet is added.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 22, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
True that you can use a floculation calculation to get the same time factors. But the methods are different.

The biggest difference would be, if we don't get the desired set in exactly 30 minutes, we will wait until its ready, maybe up to 40 minutes even. As I understand floculation, you just go for it when you reach the target time, no matter what the curd does.

When it comes down to it, the tradition I learned from doesn't do it this way, so I'm not going to go out and change things. They have a proven method that works reliably and consistently. It would be arrogant of me to assume I could improve on their methods which have proven themselves over thousands of years. All I can hope to do is modify the basic practice to get different (not better, mind you) cheeses.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 22, 2013, 08:14:25 PM
My understanding of flocculation is it is a means of standardizing the set of the curd to allow for variations in milk, culture and rennet without requiring as much experience to know when the curds are exactly right.  It allows those of us without a teacher to get a feel for when the curds are right for cutting.  Somewhere along the line I hope to develop a feel, but since I make all sorts of cheeses it's not likely to happen soon.

I would have used the multiplier of 2 as Bruce suggested had I remembered to measure it.  Higher multipliers lead to higher moisture content.  I had been going without CaCl2 and used the appropriate amount of rennet for pure store bought P/H milk, even though I used CaCl2.  I did notice I had achieved flocculation fairly early, although I couldn't say how long it was so I let it set for the specified 30 minutes.  Given the moisture content of my resulting cheese, it seems floc was very short, as one would expect without adjusting the rennet. (Hindsight being perfect.)   

Here's to a better result this time.  8)
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: bbracken677 on February 22, 2013, 08:59:24 PM


The biggest difference would be, if we don't get the desired set in exactly 30 minutes, we will wait until its ready, maybe up to 40 minutes even. As I understand floculation, you just go for it when you reach the target time, no matter what the curd does.



My understanding is that if you get flocculation at 15 minutes, and use a x2 multiplier then there is no need for a subjective decision about the condition of the curds, because they will be exactly as needed at 30 minutes.   ie: if your amount of rennet results in say a 20 minute flocculation then, by definition, you would not have achieved the proper set for cutting at 30 minutes and would cut at 40 instead (pretty much as you just stated) and you would also know to use a tad more rennet next make.

The problem with assessing the necessary condition of the curd by feel or appearance is that unless you have a lot of experience working with the curd then one person's "proper condition" will differ slightly with another's unless you use flocculation which pretty much takes out all the subjectiveness of the decision of when to cut.

The use of flocculation also gives you a solid indication of whether you are using too little or too much rennet so that you can adjust for the next make (again, unless you have a lot of experience and know exactly how the curd should be in what period of time). Given that most of us on the forum here do not have years of experience making the same cheeses, we rely on the flocculation method to help standardize our makes in a way that can be repeated with a bit more certainty.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 22, 2013, 11:41:24 PM
Good points here, I see what you are saying.

I also somewhat misunderstood your position on this. I have had several times people tell me I should be using the floc method, and stop using my 'old fashioned method' because it is seen as somehow inferior (even though as you point out the end result is the same). I also often see where people say the old method is unreliable and leaves too much to chance.

One thing we emphasize on our cheeses though is the time factor. It is critical that the variables be as tightly controlled as possible, and time is one of the most important variables to control. While we can let our cheeses go to the 40 minutes if we need to, we do not want to as this will not give us consistent products. It is important to us that we understand just how much rennet we will need to set the cheese properly (there is an acceptable range, not a specific point) in the proper amount of time at the proper temperature.

It is true that the necessary fell of the curd is difficult to judge with no experience, this is one reason why I hope some day to be able to give demonstrations and to teach the methods that I was taught. But this is just one of many parts of the handmade cheese process that cannot be expressed by words.

Thing like floc, pH, etc. are all reasonable substitutes for experience, but my desire is to be able to equip cheesemakers with the understanding of how cheese works, to get a deep feel for their cheese so that we can all craft our cheeses, not simply produce them. Proper technique is everything, and when you become a part of the art of cheesemaking then your results improve ten fold or more.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 23, 2013, 12:43:18 AM
Thanks, Alp.  I'm sure I am not alone in really appreciating the many pearls of wisdom you give us here in cheesehead world (as my girlfriend calls it)
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: JeffHamm on February 23, 2013, 03:26:37 AM
Hi Alpkaserei,

What would be interesting would be to do a "reverse engeneering" of the floc multiplier for your make.  What I mean is, on your next make, when you add your rennet float a little bowl in the milk.  Tap it gently each minute until it is clear the milk is about to gell.  Then tap every 15 or 30 seconds, and figure out when the milk has gelled - when the bowl doesn't move out of place when gently tapped.  Write down how much time has passed since you added the rennet.  Now, ignore that value, and cut the curds when they are ready based upon your experience.  Write down how much time has passed since you added the rennet.  (let's say this is your standard 30 minutes for this make).  Now, if your floc time was around 10 minutes, then voila, we've got a 3x floc, if your floc was closer to 15 minutes, we're at 2x floc.  Do this for a few makes, and we can work out an average floc factor.  It would be interesting to see if on a make where the curds weren't ready until closer to 40 minutes if the floc time was also a bit delayed.  i.e. your experience may be using the floc, just not calculating it by math but by feel.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Boofer on February 23, 2013, 02:54:17 PM
Thing like floc, pH, etc. are all reasonable substitutes for experience, but my desire is to be able to equip cheesemakers with the understanding of how cheese works, to get a deep feel for their cheese so that we can all craft our cheeses, not simply produce them. Proper technique is everything, and when you become a part of the art of cheesemaking then your results improve ten fold or more.
With repetition we all improve our techniques and develop a feel for what the milk is doing and where it is at a particular stage of the cheesemaking process. The comfort and confidence level improves over time as well, giving us the insight needed to make on-the-fly adjustments to our process if different situations intervene.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: bbracken677 on February 23, 2013, 03:11:58 PM

With repetition we all improve our techniques and develop a feel for what the milk is doing and where it is at a particular stage of the cheesemaking process. The comfort and confidence level improves over time as well, giving us the insight needed to make on-the-fly adjustments to our process if different situations intervene.

-Boofer-

Absolutely....I have made a number of cheddars, and I am beginning to see where I can make improvements in my methodology. When I first began I was all questions, inexperience and clueless. Now I have graduated to semi-clueless but the eyes are opening.    :)

I believe my biggest problem with my cheddar makes has been the overnight pressing resulting in a too low pH by the time I take it out of the mold. Since I start my makes in the morning, I can actually remove from the mold later that same evening to begin the drying phase and I believe I will see some improvements. Also...based on taste tests, I believe I can increase the amount of salt used somewhat to further slow acidification. 

Until I got my latest pH meter I was unable to test the pH of the cheese out of the mold.

 I also believe that I have not allowed quite enough time for drying before bagging. Hence I have added a secondary drying phase inside the cave (somewhat higher RH inside the cave than the ambient RH here in Dallas).

The lessons above were learned the hard way, aided by the use of the pH meter.  There is no perfect substitute for experience, but the proper application of knowledge combined with a bit of science and experience will go a long way.

And when you add the combined experience of people in this forum to help you along the path...excellent cheese is just a ways down the road!!  (havent quite got there yet, but it is the journey that makes the destination worthwhile).
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 23, 2013, 06:10:59 PM
YEs repetition is a great teacher.

And experience cannot be replaced. Even when using modern methods, you still need that expert human touch.

I understand that the traditional methods also are not for everyone, for making hard cheeses like ours, it requires dedication and passion to be able to spend the time and effort necessary to master the craft.

I had the benefit of being able to make maybe 14 or so Alpkäse in  a 2-week time under the tutelage of one of the finest cheesemakers in the region, the experience gained there spending time where cheese was quite literally our life was invaluable.

My opinion is that a scientific approach is a substitute (not a replacement) for having it passed down to you. I was blessed to have had it passed down to me as a part of a millenia-old tradition. But not everyone can have that. So my contribution is to try and get our operation set up so that I can do the same for cheesemakers here in North America.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 24, 2013, 03:48:49 AM
Today's make went much better.  I was able to knead the curd mass to expel enough whey that it fit the mold and 3.5 gallons of P/H milk made a cheese that is now under 150 pounds and 2.5" high in a 7.5" mold.  The first two pressings were under whey at 70 pounds. 

Lousy picture in the press.  Going naked, so you can see nubbins in the making.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: JeffHamm on February 24, 2013, 06:06:53 AM
Just to reinterate what Alpkaserei says, I think the scientific approach will really get you through that first learning phase much faster.  You should produce far fewer abject failures.  However, you still need to pay careful attention to what the curds and the cheese is doing, not just your measurements.  The measured approach should get you to the point where you are observing more or less the correct textures, and firmness, etc, but your experience will help you tweak things, to adjust.  Measurements are about averages, not necessarily specifics.  They minimize the error you will make, your experience will help you correct those errors.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 24, 2013, 07:23:33 AM
The floc time was 11:30 but at 23 minutes I didn't get a clean break so I let it go 5 more minutes. I followed Alp's directions cutting slowly over 20 minutes with a whisk then some pretty vigorous stirring for half an hour before heating to 107F. Carry over heat took me up to 109 for a bit before draining. I probably should have been more aggressive kneading it. It came out of the press with major nubbins weighing in at 4 pounds 2 oz from 3.5 gallons of milk. It feels pretty good, though.  In the whey brine until later this morning when it may be ready for its close-up.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 25, 2013, 03:04:15 AM
Heading to the cave
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: bbracken677 on February 27, 2013, 01:19:58 PM
Nicely knit! Knice job! Nice looking kcheese! 

Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on February 27, 2013, 02:43:18 PM
Thanks, BB.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: BobE102330 on March 28, 2013, 02:12:03 PM
At a month the cheese was looking like it was blowing up - the top and bottom were bulging more than my attempt at Jarlsberg.  Expecting the worst, I opened it last night. 

Looks like the bulging was actually shrinkage/water loss at the edges. Nice dry orange rind - washed with white wine brine for a week.  Way too soft to be a Mutschli, guess I needed more kneading time.  About the texture and firmness expected of a Muenster, and slightly sharp linens taste.  I got a little closer than my first attempt, but I will have to try this one and Jarlsberg again.

Cut up to share.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 01, 2013, 08:46:14 PM
Since I'm going to make one of these pretty soon I have a question about the initial heating and brewing process.  In Alp's recipe he has the milk heated to 108 degrees then it gets heated again to 97 degrees.  I'm not sure I would loose 11 degrees of temp in an hours (more or less).  In the AlpKase recipe he heats half the milk to 108 degrees but then puts the other half in which I would assume would lower the temp considerably.  Is that step omitted in the Mutschli recipe? 
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Alpkäserei on May 01, 2013, 10:26:47 PM
The recipe you are referencing implies the adding of the milk in 2 different stages. This is because that is the way we do it in the mountains. The fresh morning milk is added directly into the vat, the culture added and cream from the evening milk melted and blended into it. The rest of the evening milk is then added. Since the evening milk is cool, it will lower the temperature quite a bit. We always tried to warm the first round in such a way that when we added the second round of milk, it would be just at the right temperature for adding the Rennet. But the milk is only chilled to maybe 45 to 50 degrees, not cold.

I imitate this practice in the more in depth recipes, because I think it has an affect on the quality of the cheese. I would feel safe to say this overheating, cooling, then reheating has a definite effect on the bacteria cultures within the cheese, and I would also guess that it would have an effect on the enzymes and protein structures in the raw milk.

But if you are doing a hobby cheese make, and aren't so in depth to care about these minute details then its fine if you skip this double initial heating, and just heat up once, and let incubate about 20 minutes. As far as bacteria count goes, this will be about the same. And if you are using pasteurized milk then this technique won't matter anyway. There are no wild bacteriae contend with, and the enzymes and proteins are already thoroughly screwed up.
Title: Re: Mutschli
Post by: Smurfmacaw on May 02, 2013, 01:30:24 AM
Thanks, that is what I thought was going on.  Just wanted to understand the process to prevent any disappointments.  I appreciate all the cool information you are posting, it really helps.