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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: Cartierusm on January 24, 2009, 08:45:20 AM
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So I'll be making a 15 gallon Farmhouse Cheddar today when the sun comes up. I'm going to bed right now.
My objectives this time are to see a change in PH during cooking, get some PH test papers and check the PH during aging, to get a nice smooth pressing with no voids. I'm not worried about PH during ripening. I'll just let it go the regular time. I'll also be checking the curds with my fingers for toughness instead of just cooking them based on time.
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I would love to see your pH data over time during your cooking, then cheddaring/milling phases.
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I'm doing a Farmhouse so I don't know if there is a milling stage and I don't have any PH papers yet, anyone know where to find some on a saturday. I think the More Beer near me should have them, but I won't need to test the surface for a few days.
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Dang, here in Houston I was just in WalMart for milk et al and I forgot to pick up litmus strips, I am very sure they have them in the pool supplies department, assuming they still have that equipment out. Also, I think there are two ranges of litmus papers. Pool supply shops will also have them :).
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Thanks, I was hoping to get to the brew shop but haven't been able to get away, maybe while it's setting I can go. I want to make sure the ones I get are non-toxic as I'll be touching the surface of the cheese. They might be all non-toxic I have no idea.
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Carter,
Just made it online a few minutes ago.....
How did the large cheddar work out?
Looking forward to seeing some pics of the process.
Dave
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Still working on it Dave, I went real slow on the heat up 3+ hours for the initial heat up, taking a cue from you. I'm at the set point and it's a little mushy giving it another 15 minutes.
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"The Brick" didn't come out, but the curd was the best set I've had to date, but I also ripened for 3 hours.
This batch I wanted to replicate and used the same milk that SayCheese suggested, Bayview Farms.
I didn't get a great set but a decent one. Lots of little bits but they held together. I only ripened 1 1/2 hours but did get a drop in PH of 6.7 from 6.8. So at least it's moving. I decided that I will add 30 minutes to any recipe for ripening time as I read somewhere that DVI cultures have a lag time of 30 minutes and until I'm corrected I'll continue to do so, plus half and hour here and there can't hurt much...LOL, as I wipe a tear from my face.
So my starting PH was 6.9, after heating up to the starter temp it was 6.8, which I always get a .1 drop after heating. My PH at end of ripening before adding rennet was 6.7. I'm in the cooking stages now and my auto mixer seems to be doing a great job, so far. We'll see if any of the curds are matted. I'll post pics tomorrow when I'm done.
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Pics first them explanation.
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The pics really don't do it justice as the wheel is 10" in diameter and 6" high. It's a biggun.
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OK, so revelations and questions.
So my goal was to see a change in PH during ripening without going over or waiting forever. I waited the standard time of 1 1/2 hours, 1 hour for regular recipe and 30 minutes more because I'm using a DVI. PH at end of draining was 5.5. I am going out soon to pick up some PH papers and test the surface and I'll post back. My other goal was to have a smooth beautiful rind, which I did. The bunching of the cheese cloth was the probelem with the surface defects, but over all I'm happy and have ideas on what to do next time.
So that leads to question one. I never seen a video to date professional or otherwise that doesn't use cheese cloth during pressing. I've also talked to professionals that say it is necessary to wick away moisture. What I hate about cheese cloth is three fold, I hate cleaning it, the wrinkles it leaves in the cheese ok so that's only 2 fold. The question is how important is the cloth on the sides if the mold doesn't have holes? Most professional HARD cheese molds I've seen don't have side holes. Because moisture is not going to migrate to the sides to drain it's going to go down. So my idea is to do what I did once with the last Parmesan use 2 round pieces of cheese cloth on the top and bottom. That way I get no bunching and it won't distrub my embossing plates.
A little backgroud on the pressing, I use the press pictured below. It rotates down so I don't have to remove the cheese for flipping because I don't want to disturb the embossing plates. Both top and bottom followers have drain holes. Aside from letting the butterfat and whey distribute evenly is there really any other reason to flip? I mean you're not really losing any by removing the cheese from the mold during flipping?
The pics above show how much whey was expelled by pressing. Not much but then again my recipe calls for 1 hour of hanging/draining so most whey was lost that way. Weird part is the press whey was milky but the whey dripping off from hanging was as clear as water.
So I'm not sure with all these variables what I should be looking for. The cheddar is air drying right now and is moist and is starting to mushroom but that may just be from the weight as it's a heavy wheel, very heavy.
If you've made it this far in the post I'll sum up the question, do you think not flipping but use my flipping press and just 2 circles of cheese cloth will achieve the same as using a whole piece of cheees cloth?
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Wow, nice looking Cheese.
Flipping, I've watch enough videos to know that not only do the pros flip, but they re-wrap the cheese in the cheesecloth too. Sorry.
Are you goingto wax or wrap this?
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Yeah Wayne, but are they removing the cloth just so it doesn't stick as much later on? And I'll be flipping using my rigged press but not removing the cheese from the mold, but turning upside down, like you're supposed to do in making blue and stilton.
Haven't decided what to do, what are my options wax or brine? I tried bandaging on a small cheddar a few months ago and smeared it with lard and it's nasty to work with, you have to wash your hand every time you flip and it smell, so I couldn't put it in general population.
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That really depends on your aging plan... how long do you plan on letting this baby mature?
You are going to need a rind, bottom line, a year down the road, you will loose just too much moisture.
god, i dunno.
I guess I will say that i am not qualified to answer.
If i had to guess, i would let it suface dry and then wax. But i really need to stew on that.
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Carter..
Sorry that I don't have an answer to your question since I have always flipped and also do as Wayne said, re-wrap the cheese at each flip.
I do think that the top and bottom cloth method will work just fine if you are using a mold without holes in the side.
The reason that I feel this would work is simply because the downward pressure on the cheese will push the curd out towards the side of the mold. The only problem might come from the fact that there are imperfections on the interior walls of PVC pipe that might show up on the surface of the cheese.
One thing that I have found is that once the cheese is out of the press for a day or two, the imperfections from the cheese cloth do mellow.
This is especially true if you give the cheese a light rub with flake salt or wipe the wheel as you do with a swiss.
I don't think it would hurt a bit to rub some flake salt into the surface of this wheel so you might give that a try.
Other than that, all I can say is that is one FANTASTIC looking wheel of cheese!
I always look forward to seeing how your large batches turn out.
Thanks for the post and the pics.
Dave
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Thanks Dave. I think so I don't have to worry about it is wax it. Heating up the 2 gallons of wax i have is going to take forever, it always does and it's in such a large pot (turkey fryer pot) I was never able to find anything to use as a double boiler.
I think I'll do the 2 circles of cheese cloth and be done with it. I always wanted to go to a 12" wheel but trust me this is plenty big.
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Carter, that is an impressive wheel of cheese!! You say your press, 'It rotates down so I don't have to remove the cheese for flipping..." Can you explain this a little more. Are you still pressing vertically? It looks in the picture that you can pivot the press at the bottom point and it will lay horizontal on the stand. Just trying to understand your process... :)
Also, it looks like you had the same milky whey as I did in my cheddar from the weekend. Is that the butterfat that is coming out? What causes that and I assume one would ideally not want this to happen?
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"Smashing" the curd during a stiring phase is where i seem to lose a lot of butterfat.
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That sounds right.... I suppose that is the drawback of stirred curd cheddar vs. traditional cheddar?
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no,
Actually i was referring to the stirring that occurs initially at the curd cooking stage.
I actually seem to smash the curds during this delicate phase in a curd's short life.....
;)
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hmmm.. interesting. So you are getting milky whey (gotta chuckle ever time I type that) early on and right after cutting. I assume it helps when you let it rest after cutting but does it still release?
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I've learned recently that it is imperative that you let the curds sit for 5 minutes after cutting to let the skin toughen up.
Yes Chili, I don't actually flip it, I tilt the press down, my follower has holes in it too, so the whey comes out the top, and then I spin the hoop 180 degrees to keep the butterfat and whey distributed evenly. I hope that helps, I know it might be hard to picture. When I get my new HD Camcorder this week maybe I'll shoot some footage.
In the whey yes it's a little butterfat, not as much as I originally thought, if you swirl the mixture around use see it's not that dense of color.
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So after Wayne and I confired on what to do about my cheddar as it was drying too fast and the wrinkles left by the cheese cloth were cracking. We decided I should put it in my cave at 55F 85%. It's been in there about 3-4 days and all is well. The cracks seemed to heel themsleves, not close up but stop cracking and look dry and not so puckery looking as when they were newly formed.
I took it out tonight and was going to wax it but whey kept leaking from about 10 spots that were little pricks in the rind. As I left it out in the open in the kitchen it started to weep a little more, I guess expansion and contractions going from a cold to warm enviroment. Then I put it in the regular frig to chill up until I could get the wax melted and it started to weep even more, mind you this are little trickles, not visible but come back a few minutes later and it's got a few drops leaking down the side. So now the rind is a little developed I'm going to keep it in the regular frig for a while as an experiment and see if the dehumidifying properties of a regular frig helps dry it out.
I hope I didn't confuse people what I did, but I would like your opinions if I get whey leaking out the sides a few drops after 10 minutes should I let it still air dry or wax it? The rind is fairly dry but am I looking for more than that?
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Carter, you know this may be another of these subtile variances that we need to really hash out. My question to go along with your question is do you really want all the whey out of the cheese or are you just going to cause it to be a dryer cheese? If you were to wax and age it without the whey totally expelled, will it absorb back into the cheese? Are we just looking for a rind to develop or are we truly trying to get all the whey out?
My first cheddar was pretty dry and I let it dry out on the counter for about 5-6 days. I'll be curious to see what the chokecherry stout cheddar Will do since I only let it dry for about 2 days. There were 2 of the little weeping holes like you are describing and I just wiped them down before waxing and still waxed.
Good question and I look forward to hearing more about the answer.
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I will say that the cheddar I like the best, (12/1/08) was vacuum sealed after air drying only 2 days.
It is more in line with my moisture, texture, and flavor expectations.
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Good to know Wayne, but remember mine is huge. Chili, I don't think the leaking whey will incorporate back in completely, it leaks out too easy.
So the results! From the eggining, originally I put the cheese in the kitchen to air dry, the sides developed a sem-hard rind and the top was a dry supply rind, The bottom was wet as I'm sure whey was expelling. Then I would flip it, the top(formerly the bottom) would get a nice supple rind and the bottom (formerly top) would get wet as why expelled. I use bamboo mats and they are pretty close knit and would stay wet. I'm thinking next time to take out everyother bamboo skewer. The top and bottom were doing what was expected, the sides dried too fast and I got cracks from the wrinkles from the cheese cloth. Then I moved it to the cave at 55F 85%. The top and bottom did the same as I flipped but the side remoistureized and because a semi-semi-hard rind but a little more moisture and supple. Then I put it in the frig last night and the little holes were still weeping every so often. The rind now is hard and the cheese is very solid feeling as opposed to before where it was a little wobbly and rubbery.
So my conclusion. This is a great way, as chili hinted to, to control mositrue of the final cheese. When making a new cheese I will air dry in the kitchen for a few hours, then transfer to my cave for 5 days or so, less for more moisture and more for more moisture. Then I'll put it in my regular frig to harden the rind quickly locking in the moisture, stop the weepings and making the cheese more solid. This way you have a controlled drying and it prevents it from getting cracks. I'll be waxing this cheese today.
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Good luck with the waxing -- hope all goes well! Please post a picture of this monster when you're done.
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Carter what type of lard are you using? If you are using the mexican lard, the stuff that comes in a white and green tub, there shouldn't be any scent at all.
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Yes the one in the white tub, I don't mean smells real bad but there is an odor, and I don't like it.
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Went ahead and waxed 'the beast' last night. Here are two pics first pic was dip number 1 and pic two was dip number 2. I dipped a few more times after that and the embossing didn't come out, it was filled by wax. So next time I'm not going to emboss the waxed cheeses but I'm going to machine next week some brands to melt into the wax my name and date.
Also I have to redesign the dipped I used to lower the cheese into the pot. The chees was so heavy that the nubs on the dipper pushed through the cheese, dented not poked, that's not so bad but it allowed the cheese to rest on the metal and everything stuck so when I pulled the cheese off the wax tore. Needless to say I brushed wax on that side and I didn't post a pic but it looks like a jackson pollack painting.
My new design will be posted when I make it, should work better.
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Carter....
At this point in my cheese making I can't imagine the tricks and traps of dealing with such a monster size cheese.
Regardless, it sure does look nice.
If possible, could you use something as a reference point (like a coffee cup) to give us all an idea of just how big this thing actually is?
I know that my Co/Jack looks huge and it was only from a six gallon batch.
I'm just having problems really visualizing something this big.
Great work though.....
Dave
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Porn
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Okay, at first I was impressed with the size of the cheese wheel.
Now I have to ask:
What in the HELL are you going to do with that much Tabasco??
Sheesh!
Dave
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Basically, it's one of those life things, if you experience pain beyond all recognition the rest of life seems REAL easy, so all I have to say is Tabasco Colonic...AHHH feel the burn.
No really, I love hot sauce so this was one of my Hanukkah presents. I'll drink it..I mean use it then fill it with tomato juice or something just for display. That's nothing though I've got a ton of unique hot sauces. I even have straight habanero, Jalapeno and Serrano Mash so I can make my own hot sauce. I originally tried making my own mash but it didn't work. Chopping up 10 pounds of habaneros in my kitchen even with the fan on, windows open and gloves it was torture.
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Very impressive Carter, you should be one proud papa bear with that one. Hope it ages well for you.
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Thanks. I hope it ages well too. It's in my cave 55F and it'll be ready in about 8 months.
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Thanks. I hope it ages well too. It's in my cave 55F and it'll be ready in about 8 months.
It's a beautiful looking cheese, Carter!
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I am very impressed/envious.
2 questions.
What are your turning plans?
Would you use the embossed follower again for waxed wheels?
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"Feel the burn" Sheesh! ROFL!
You crack me up.
Anway, it is a great looking wheel of cheese.
Of course I'd probably give it a try within 4 months, instead of eight. ;D
Dave
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Wayne, I'll flip it everyday as I have other cheeses to flip. No I won't use ther follower for the waxed cheeses I'll be making a brand this week to brand the wax. I'll also see how it brands the rind of parmesan. I'm going to start working on mold inserts for side designs, such as the ones for parmesan and manchego. Just have to figure out the details on drain holes or pressing and that sort of thing.
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Wayne, I'll flip it everyday as I have other cheeses to flip. No I won't use ther follower for the waxed cheeses I'll be making a brand this week to brand the wax. I'll also see how it brands the rind of parmesan. I'm going to start working on mold inserts for side designs, such as the ones for parmesan and manchego. Just have to figure out the details on drain holes or pressing and that sort of thing.
Let me know how that goes. If this manchego turns out well, I would love to get an imprint all the way around it, the next time we make some! :)
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It's going to take some R&D.
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Carter I have been looking at wax stamps the last couple of weeks, and I was thinking of something along the lines of them, where the heads can be replaced with different motifs etc. Even something where dates could be interchanged for easy recall.
For burn stamping, maybe something that fits over the top of one of those kitchen flame burners (sorry can't think what they are called at the moment).
I wonder if, with the plastic follower, if the imprint was inverted into the mould, if that would give a better result when waxing?
Anyway still think this is a great idea, that is still worth some R&D.
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Tracey, so the letters are raised? Might be worth a go, but I'm not too fussed, I'd rather have the burning....hee hee fire.
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Any help is appreciated. My farmhouse cheddar has been in the cellar for a week or so and I'm starting to get some leaking from small pin holes in the wax. I sealed them up and they reformed in the same region. I don't think excess whey will hurt the cheese but it certainly won't age properly.
So my question to you all is should I cut off the wax, redry and rewax?
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Well I have to admit that this hasn't happened to me, but I think if it is still leaking whey at that rate, that I would take off the wax, and let dry for, well I probably would start with a 3 day minimum, and see what that did. Maybe the larger wheels just need longer to drain/dry than usual.
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Oh, i'm sure they need to drain longer and I went 5 days I think, I thought that was enough, but then again I was being impatient. I just finished modifying my wax dipper so maybe I'll do that.
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Tea, I went ahead and took off the wax, it came off easy as there was a ton of liquid in there. For such a big cheese I definately need to let it weep for probably a week in a my cave 55F 85% that way the rind won't form and whey can still excape. The smell of the whey was really nasty. Might be normal but don't know. A few chunks of the wheel came off with the wax, but that allowed me to examine the cheese. It's crumbly but still creamy when mashed. Before I waxed it originally it was still weeping a little so that tells me it wasn't ready. I hope next time I can tell if it's going to be ready.
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The chunk missing from pulling wax is so wet I wonder if I should remill this cheddar and repress? Anyone think this is a good idea?
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I put in on a drain board at an angle in my cave and it's still leaking whey. Next time i will put on a drain board at an angle in my cave until it stops leaking. I was going to make a big Stilton tomorrow but I'm going to make another Farmhouse to see if I can get it right.
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I don't think re-milling is a good idea. the fibers in the knit curd are set by now.
Where you flipping this cheese daily? and if so, does it still weep from both top and bottom? How long after the waxing did you notice the weeping?
I'm thinking that if the curd is crumbly, that perhaps next time the salt is pitched earlier, thereby stopping acid production when the pH is a bit higher.
Speaking of, would love to know the pH of the whey that is weeping out now.
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Good idea Wayne, I'll see if there is enough to take a reading.
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Ask and you shall recieve Wayne. There was about 3 oz. of whey in the pan this morning from the cheddar, it definately was not ready to be waxed, PH was 4.8.
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So after much draining in the cave the cheddar has stopped leaking. I rewaxed it today. I screwed it up royaly as fas as being pretty, but the good part is some of the rind got cut off, which allowed me to see the inside, which is very creamy and moist. I only cut off a little and was surprised that the rind only goes down a few mm.
P.S. I believe I forgot to drain this cheese and thought the whey would naturally get expelled thorugh pressing. Also it's good to see that there are no voids, the knit was perfect despite the originaly cracks in the side.
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The curd looks really really good. This will be much better than it looks.
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I thought it looked good too, I was surprised, I'm gald you didn't see it waxed Wayne it would have given you nightmares. I think I've finally come up a waxing procedure.
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Looks like Ratatouille, or one of his buddies got to your cheese, Carter!
(http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/trat5.jpg)
:)
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That's Remy's Brother. That movie is awesome but it's hard on the colon. When my GF and I watch it we pig out on cheese and crackers and wine the whole day. It goes down well but then a few hours later...ooooooooh too much cheese.
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Too much cheese? Is that possible?? :o
That's a great movie, Thom hasn't seen it, I should order it so he can see it.
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Being the evniromental person you are Joy you should definately watch Wall-E.
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Wall-E was watched at our house a couple of weeks ago. We all agreed that it's a great movie.
Last summer my youngest daughter (8 years old) started calling my middle daughter (14) Wally, out of the blue. We asked her where she came up with this name and her response was "Taylor looks like a robot."
Well none of us had even heard of the movie at this time so it didn't mean a lot to us.
What is funny (at least to me) is that Erin bought the movie Wall-E, as a Christmas present for Taylor.
Tay isn't too awfully thrilled at how all of her high school friends have now nicknamed her Wall-E, but the rest of us find it amusing.
Anyway, just one story from a male living in a household of females, (wife and three daughters).
I'm sure that one day they will find me half starved and stuck to the toilet seat from all of the hairspray fumes in the house. :-)
Dave
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Being the evniromental person you are Joy you should definately watch Wall-E.
I've heard that. I'll put it on my netflix queue. Right now we have "Bottle Shock".
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Great Dave gang up on one of your kids...at least you'll be the one shelling out for the therapy. ;D
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Carter, LOL!
If therapy equals college, I'm already paying with my oldest daughter. Out of state tuition is INSANE!
As I've mentioned before, each time I want something new for my cheesemaking, my wife reminds me of our college expense.
Just the thought of having two more kids to put through college, scares me (especially in today's economic situation).
You did give me a laugh though!
Dave