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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Boofer on October 11, 2013, 01:14:07 AM

Title: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 11, 2013, 01:14:07 AM
I hadn't really intended to make cheese this week, but something drove me to redo a favorite recipe with pasteurized & homogenized supermarket industrial milk. For the past year or two I have been using either creamline or raw (or both) in my makes. The curd behavior and set as well as the end product have been very rewarding, delicious, and consistent.

The makes using creamline or raw milk have been almost "cookie-cutter" in predictability and ease of use.

The make today was nothing like my previous efforts (#1 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10685.0.html), #2 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11475.0.html)). The floc was 20 minutes. I used a 3X factor just as before. After an additional 40 minutes, I cut the curds. They seemed fairly delicate at that point. I rested them for 10 minutes. The "shattered curds" pic shows them in the 2 o'clock position when I had just started to whisk to smaller curds. I rested them again at that point for 30 minutes to try to firm them up.

I proceeded to whisk gently to reduce the weak curds in size. Several times I wondered whether I should just dump the mess. I was disappointed, deflated, and really surprised that the change in milk had brought such a dramatic and unexpected result. I pondered dumping the kettle down the drain and driving over to pick up some of my "regular", quality milk. I decided to see this experiment through and try to be objective in my observations and conclusions.

I normally perform a curd texture test while cooking to see whether the curds will stick together when squeezed but still fall away from each other fairly easily. This test resulted in no joy. The shattered curds simply refused to do the customary bonding to one another. Matting?...yeah, not happening. :(

Make started 10/10/13 0600hrs

Initial pH: 6.70

1/8 tsp TA-61
1/8 tsp Alp D
1 tsp CACL diluted with 1/4 cup distilled water
1/16 tsp Renco dry calf rennet, dissolved in 1/4 cup distilled water

Pressed the four Reblochon moulds with 15 lbs for 30 minutes (open air, not in kettle, not under warm whey)
Redressed, pressed with 25 lbs for 30 minutes
Redressed, pressed with 25 lbs for 60 minutes

At pH 5.44, removed from pressing and brined for 2 hours, then flipped and brined for 2 more hours.

Removed the wheels from the whey-brine, dried them with paper towels, moved them to their minicaves to dry at room temperature for a day or two.

The snowy whiteness of this milk reminded me of other weak-character products:
The stark white characteristic of the industrial cow milk stands out as downright clinical when compared to warmer, cream-hued creamline milk and slightly yellow, rich raw milk.

I do not know what I have created today. My guidance for acceptable cheeses to attempt with supermarket industrial milk was for no long-term cheeses. With that in mind, I decided on a semisoft cheese that would be consumable within a couple months.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: jwalker on October 11, 2013, 08:29:06 AM
Welcome to my world , those curds look just like almost every make of mine , except for the few makes where I managed to get some raw milk.

Amazingly enough , I have turned out some very good cheeses with P/H store bought milk , especially Gouda type cheeses , the cooking of the curds seems to firm them up and help keep them from breaking into much smaller pieces.

I have found though , when you have those smaller curds , it's best to use way less weight when pressing , I now press with 10 pounds on my Goudas and they turn out great , just opened one yesterday and it was wonderful at six months.

Not sure about other styles of cheese though , but the cooked curd type seem to survive better and actually come out very consistent with P/H store milk , but just use less press weight.



Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JimSteel on October 11, 2013, 09:28:39 AM
Yep, looks about right for me too.

I've found that I have to be extremely gentle with my curds to prevent them from "exploding".  In my last few makes, I've been generous with the CaCl, allowed lots of healing time (though I see you let them heal for 40 minutes) and stirred very delicately at the beginning.  My experiences are highly variable though.  On some occasions, they've ended up like yours(or worse) and on others they held their shape much better.

We'll have to see how it turns out after aging.
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Digitalsmgital on October 11, 2013, 10:01:09 PM
I need to buy some of those mats. Where to purchase them?

I have read here that Trader Joe's Organic milk works well? I'm guessing P&H is the local market?

Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 12, 2013, 08:24:04 AM
I'm guessing P&H is the local market?
Pasteurized & Homogenized....

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Digitalsmgital on October 12, 2013, 10:20:09 AM
LOL, I'm an idiot!

"so what's the pH of your P&H"  >:D
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 13, 2013, 09:05:38 PM
LOL, I'm an idiot!

"so what's the pH of your P&H"  >:D
First page:   "Initial pH: 6.70"

Umm, this does get easier.  :-\

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JeffHamm on October 13, 2013, 09:46:19 PM
It's amazing how much of a difference a good source of milk can be.  I've not got easy access to raw milk, but using creamline pasturized milk creates much stronger curds.  My main P&H milk is ok, and doesn't shatter completely, but the curds are not overly strong.  I've started putting the CaCl2 in when I take the milk out of the fridge and leave it to sit while prepping the rest of the equipment.  This seems to help, but the first 10 to 15 minutes of stirring still has to be jiggling or a lot of curds break up.  I find that if the curds have to be cut to 1 cm (around 1/2 an inch) cubes, then it is usually ok, but larger cubes will break up.  The class I took a few years ago used Raw milk and the curds were so much stronger. 

Still, one can make decent cheese with P&H milk, but it is critical to test a lot of brands until you find one that seems to work well.  And it's not always the more expensive ones. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 13, 2013, 10:51:19 PM
The Geo is making its debut so the two minicaves were moved to the caves. This morning, while I was flipping & drying the wheels in one minicave, my peripheral vision picked up a fruit fly hovering near the other minicave. Arrgghh!! Get outa here! It was very perceptive...the minicaves hadn't been out for long when it showed up.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Tiarella on October 14, 2013, 06:57:34 AM
Hi Boofer!!!!  I don't have anything to say about your lovely cheeses but wanted to say hello since it's been a while!!!  The milk production is down in my herd since I've been selling and butchering some so there's not a lot of cheese making going on here.  I have offers from goat-owning friends to use their milk and it will come to that but it's funny.....I feel strangely reluctant to use milk that I haven't "grown" and "harvested" myself.  I'll get over that I suppose.  Anyway......glad to see you are cheesing onwards, bringing your care and attention to even less-deserving milks!!!!  Bet you'll be glad to be back to your raw milk.   ;)
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 14, 2013, 08:33:43 AM
Hi back to you, Kathrin! :)

Yeah, I'm trying to keep my hand in. This whole make was a bit of a lark, trying to re-evaluate the potential for P&H milk. I'm not entirely hopeful about the outcome for these cheeses, but I'll make every effort to be nonjudgmental. :-\

When you get down to herd size you seek, how many animals will there be? I guess it will feel strange using milk from someone else's animals. I'm sure if it's someone you know, that issue will vanish in a puff of Geo.

I saw a horseradish and bacon Cheddar yesterday. Very intriguing. I wonder about the viability and safety of incorporating bacon in one's cheese.

I'd like to make a softer cheese with either some raw or creamline milk. Lately, except for this make, it seems like I've been focused on hard cheeses (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11991.msg92108.html#msg92108). I do like that style but I certainly don't want to be a one-trick pony, so I'm leaning towards a semi-hard such as Tilsit (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg76908.html#msg76908) again.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: jwalker on October 14, 2013, 08:39:46 AM
It's amazing how much of a difference a good source of milk can be.  I've not got easy access to raw milk, but using creamline pasturized milk creates much stronger curds.  My main P&H milk is ok, and doesn't shatter completely, but the curds are not overly strong.  I've started putting the CaCl2 in when I take the milk out of the fridge and leave it to sit while prepping the rest of the equipment.  This seems to help, but the first 10 to 15 minutes of stirring still has to be jiggling or a lot of curds break up.  I find that if the curds have to be cut to 1 cm (around 1/2 an inch) cubes, then it is usually ok, but larger cubes will break up.  The class I took a few years ago used Raw milk and the curds were so much stronger. 

Still, one can make decent cheese with P&H milk, but it is critical to test a lot of brands until you find one that seems to work well.  And it's not always the more expensive ones. 

- Jeff

I also just read that if you have no alternative to store bought P/H milk , you are better off buying skim milk and heavy cream and adding them together to better approximate creamline milk , I will be trying that soon on one of my next makes.

Today , I am going to Idaho where I can buy raw milk in the store , I will try to get some back into Canada , technically , it's illegal to bring it back , but we'll see if I can pull it off. >:D

I
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Tiarella on October 14, 2013, 09:34:42 AM
I won't tell anyone.    :-X
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JimSteel on October 14, 2013, 08:44:18 PM

I also just read that if you have no alternative to store bought P/H milk , you are better off buying skim milk and heavy cream and adding them together to better approximate creamline milk , I will be trying that soon on one of my next makes.

Today , I am going to Idaho where I can buy raw milk in the store , I will try to get some back into Canada , technically , it's illegal to bring it back , but we'll see if I can pull it off. >:D

I

I tried this last month on a 3 gallon Gouda I made.  I did notice quite a difference actually.  The curds were much sturdier and my usual pressing values weren't enough to get a tight knit.  I did not realize it at the time, but after reading your earlier post about pressing weight, it clicked in my head.
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: jwalker on October 15, 2013, 12:20:14 PM
I won't tell anyone.    :-X

Thanks for keeping quiet , I got down to Idaho yesterday and got 4 gallons of low temp creamline milk , looking forward to a make tomorrow , a four gallon Gouda.
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Smurfmacaw on October 16, 2013, 08:53:34 PM
I won't tell anyone.    :-X

Thanks for keeping quiet , I got down to Idaho yesterday and got 4 gallons of low temp creamline milk , looking forward to a make tomorrow , a four gallon Gouda.

Now that is going the extra mile for quality milk!
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: jwalker on October 17, 2013, 07:52:17 AM
I won't tell anyone.    :-X

Thanks for keeping quiet , I got down to Idaho yesterday and got 4 gallons of low temp creamline milk , looking forward to a make tomorrow , a four gallon Gouda.

Now that is going the extra mile for quality milk!

Well, it's only a half hour drive , I live about five miles from the border crossing , we go down regularly anyway for groceries an gas.

I'll be going down this weekend for another 8 gallons , made another Gouda yesterday.

Oh , and gasoline is $1.32 per litre in BC , just across the border , it's .87 cents , so I save a pile just filling up there. >:D

Oh Canada !

Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JimSteel on October 18, 2013, 06:15:49 AM
Living on border towns definitely has advantages.  Is that a Canadian or an American litre?  ;) 
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Smurfmacaw on October 18, 2013, 10:32:36 PM
So much for my geography! A)  I made it to Ottawa for a couple of weeks once for a conference.  The Canadian government is WAY nice than the dysfunctional buffoons to the south.  They put us up in a suite each and even gave us a break on the exchange rate.  Everyone hates when they hold the conference in the US. 

Sorry, rant mode off.....it's nice you can drive only a little bit and get quality milk.  Enjoy it, I pay 16 USD per gallon for raw cow milk.  Weather sure is nice here though. ::)

Still, you get to tell everyone that you are so fanatic about your cheese that you travel internationally to source milk of an appropriate quality.
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 20, 2013, 11:04:59 AM
I pay 16 USD per gallon for raw cow milk.
  ???...:o Yeow! And I thought $11.99 was bad. I get a little break if I use creamline.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Digitalsmgital on October 21, 2013, 08:33:09 PM
Enjoy it, I pay 16 USD per gallon for raw cow milk.

On the black market? or across the border?
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 30, 2013, 03:02:54 PM
Tomorrow marks the third week for this cheese. The recipe called for 12-15 days before removing the linens. I decided that because this was a P&H based cheese that it should get a little more time for the linens to work on the paste.

The wheels are firm but still soft enough to hold promise of another satisfying Saint Paulins cheese. Removing the linens makes the entire cheese edible. Before I began doing that, the linens attached to the rind was offputting and, in most cases, had to be removed to enjoy the cheese. A number of recipes do call for the linens to be washed off under cool, running water. I use my special cheese brush to remove the linens layer but leave the cheese intact and unblemished.

After perhaps another couple weeks these cheeses should be ready for tasting.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2013, 04:31:20 PM
Nice presentation of linens removal.  I do the same thing.  Works a treat and you get a nice cheese.  I should look at trying one of these. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Tomer1 on October 30, 2013, 04:38:30 PM
The shmir removal is to decrease the stinkyness of the cheese? (reduce enzyme activity)
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on October 31, 2013, 08:22:20 AM
The shmir removal is to decrease the stinkyness of the cheese? (reduce enzyme activity)
I find the schmier not exactly a taste sensation. It could be stinky and/or bitter which would be counterproductive to tasting a cheese with an otherwise sweet & creamy profile. I just want the cultures in the PLA to work their magic and then Poof! ... disappear.

I have attached the recipe so that you can see the schmier-removal step.

I should look at trying one of these. 
They are pretty foolproof to put together and the wife and I enjoy them equally. The small form factor allows them to ripen fairly quickly and they make great gifts. My son and his family may get one of these for the holidays. It will most likely be in a cheese assortment with some young and aged Beauforts, saffron-infused Hispanico, Gouda, and Baby Swiss.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on November 10, 2013, 09:47:28 AM
I couldn't resist cutting into one of the wheels.

When handled, the wheels all feel soft and pliable under the vacuum sealed plastic. The stark white color is somewhat offputting after having used both raw and then creamline milks in the previous two efforts.

The texture and sliceability were very similar to #1 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10685.msg80670.html#msg80670) and #2 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg89867.html#msg89867). The first taste of this cheese was mildly distasteful. As I chewed and let the flavor and character of the cheese develop...no "Wow!" here. The character of the cheese is nonexistent, just like the color. Clinically white and vapid. It's cheese alright, but there's little else to recommend this cheese.

Okay, to be fair, this cheese is only 4 weeks old. So, a little more ripening time may allow the inner character to emerge. With that in mind, I will try this again in several weeks...and try to maintain a somewhat objective viewpoint. :P

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: JeffHamm on November 10, 2013, 11:33:01 AM
Hmmmm, does look very Velveta like.  More time, though, may help.  Apart from caerphilly, I've found most cheeses really improve around 2 months, and I use P/H milk for the vast majority of my makes.  Some cheeses are supposed to "quicker", but I've not really found that to be the case.  Could be due to the processing of the milk, so I wouldn't count this as down and out just yet.  It will ripen further, I'm sure of it.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: george (MaryJ) on November 11, 2013, 04:54:10 AM
Funny how that color (or lack thereof) affects us, huh?  There have been times when I didn't even have to check the dates on the cheeses in the cave, I could tell which ones were made with winter milk just by the paleness in comparison to the other seasons.  And I could tell exactly when the grass started growing in spring that year by the gradiations in the aging "lineup".

I confess that many times I was evil and used the winter cheeses as gifts or barter and kept the "good stuff" for myself.   ;D

Hopes for the flavor of this one o' yours with a little more aging.   :)
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on December 12, 2013, 10:33:12 AM
Okay, I gave this cheese another month to develop and bring itself up. Alas, another stretch of time didn't help the cheese. It's very soft. It has a bit of a tang accompanied by some saltiness.

The cheese is edible but not particularly attractive in the sense that I can't stop eating it. With this cheese, I CAN stop eating it with no problem. It is quite far afield from the quality of the previous two efforts(#1 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10685.0.html), #2 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11475.0.html)).

It does show some similarities to Laughing Cow (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelaughingcow.com%2F&ei=n-KpUpuzCsfaoASNyoGAAw&usg=AFQjCNE20LG8n_izTSJWP0OhtStP9wSZjA&bvm=bv.57967247,d.cGU) as far as texture goes. Yes, this could be a spreadable cheese.

I'll be including this effort in the Failures (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10888.0.html) thread. :(

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: H-K-J on December 12, 2013, 11:51:19 AM
A decent candidate for fondue? maybe? or just something for a holiday cheese plate with crackers and other cheeses.
if your house is like mine, it is cheese and it will get ate ;)
as my wife tells me, if it aint in the garbage bin, it's just a different cheese type.
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Geo on December 12, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
It's a shame that it didn't turn out the way you intended but as H-K-J points out, it's all in the spirit of experimentation.

I might be joining you in the failures thread in a day or so...
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on December 13, 2013, 08:39:43 AM
as my wife tells me, if it aint in the garbage bin, it's just a different cheese type.
Very philosophical.  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Shattered Dreams of Saint Paulin #3 Using P&H Milk
Post by: Boofer on September 26, 2014, 11:01:44 AM
This cheese has languished in the refrigerator since it was made. It hasn't made a lot of friends in there and now it has been asked to leave.

-Boofer-