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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: bbracken677 on August 30, 2012, 04:40:45 PM

Title: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on August 30, 2012, 04:40:45 PM
Hi! My name is Bruce. I am a cheese addict. My last make was yesterday, and one the day before....


Taleggio
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For (1 gallon) milk:
Heat milk (used 1/2 gal raw, 1/2 HP milk, 1 cup cream) to  95°F
Added  1/32 tsp of Choozit SU Casu LYO 50 DCU, 1/32 tsp MD89, 1/32 tsp C101 and a puff of Geo.
Ripen milk for 60 min. (looked for pH drop of .2) Actual time was 40 minutes
Add  rennet   pH=6.4
Check for flocculation  (should be 12-15 minutes), and wait 4 times the flocculation from the time of adding rennet to cutting the curd, e.g. 4 x 15 min. = 60 min. Or: 3x15 from flocculation point. Actual flocc was 9 minutes x 4 from rennet addition.
Cut the curd into 2-3 inch pieces. After 5 min. cut the curds again into hazel nut sized pieces. Settle under whey 5 min. Remove whey from surface of curds. Stir curds and whey briefly and gently transfer curds and whey using scoop or pitcher to the open-ended forms sitting on drain matting. Whey pH is 6.2-6.3 at hooping.  Curds were still very delicate, so I added a bit of heat to get whey/curds back to 95F, stirred and allowed to rest another 10 minutes
At the end of hooping, turn cheeses in the forms. Do this at least 2 more times, 1 hour apart. Wait 2-3 hours before turning a last time.
Leave in draining area at 71-77° F for 18-24 hours until pH 5.20-5.30. Checked pH of whey this morning (less than 24 hours from the make) and it was showing 5.4…just a bit longer in the forms.
Rub cheeses with coarse flake dry salt (2.5% by weight) Just salted them before submitting this post. Move cheeses to aging room the next day.

Affinage:
The cheeses are aged on wooden shelves or on plastic matting on wooden shelves. Conditions are 39-42° F and 90% RH with slight ventilation. The cheeses are periodically turned and brushed with brine or wiped with brine-soaked cloths to promote growth of yeasts and Coryneform bacteria such as B. linens. Turning and washing is done every 2-3 days for 2 weeks and then every 3-4 days for 3 more weeks. Cheeses are wrapped in breathable wrappers made for washed rind cheeses such as crystal and stored at 38F until ready for sale at 60 days of age.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: smilingcalico on August 31, 2012, 04:50:20 AM
They look good.  I'm not familiar with some of those cultures, but I was wondering if you are missing B. Linens from the make?
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Boofer on August 31, 2012, 05:34:53 AM
So, you're a CA member, huh? Welcome, Bruce.  :P

Yeah, they look good. I'd agree with Brian...linens or maybe PLA if you have it. In a 3% brine, mist it on or gently wash the wheels.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on August 31, 2012, 05:37:58 AM
I was planning on washing with the b. linens in a few days. It is mentioned under affinage. I placed an order for SR3 from Yoav, which is on it's way to me now. Will be my first "exposure" to using b.linens.
Should be an interesting contrast to the cams I have maturing now.  :)

As far as the cultures go, C101 I bought from our local brewers supply who is dipping a toe, so to speak, into cheese making supplies. Similar to MM100 I believe. Interestingly enough, they (the packets) were accompanied by documentation/advertising from cheesemaking.com so I presume that is where they got them from.
MD89 was suggested for use with the cams I made previously to add buttery notes, and also when used with the C101 gives a similar list of components, if not proportions, to Flora Danica.
The Choozit Casu is composed of: Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis, Lactobacillus helveticus.

I am thinking about a 2nd make without the c101 and geo...just the Casu and MD89, along with the b.linens and then comparing the flavors.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on August 31, 2012, 06:35:19 AM
Where is the recipe from?
I thought that the rennet point seems a bit acidic for this cheese but maybe I am wrong?

Su Casu is a specially formulated thermophilic mix for Pecorino. I am not sure what texture it would yield. Hopefully the mesophilic would help the suppleness of it. Unfortunately that C101 is kind of a mystery culture; it's an amateur product with no documentation (also costs about x20 per dose more than the well-documented professional grade cultures from Danisco, Hansen, Abiasa etc.).  Ah, next time we will get you Flora Danica (or Aroma B from Abiasa, or Probat 222 from Danisco - they all do the same thing). If you have MM100 you can add LM57 to it to make it work like Flora Danica.

Yes, I think the SR-3 works better with this cheese than PLA. Some interesting yeast to de-acidify the surface and help with aroma and color would help too. R2R is beautiful. KL71 is nice too.

In any event, they look really nice. Make sure to age them colder than Camemberts. Taleggio ages slowly and cold.  Don't be alarmed by greenish mold spotting in late aging stages - it's quite normal. 
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on August 31, 2012, 07:32:55 AM
Except for the cultures, which were based on what I have vs a recipe I got from here the procedures were from http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_Tallegio.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes_Tallegio.shtml)

The next make should be closer to the dairyfood one since I will be omitting the c101 and geo.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 04, 2012, 04:48:38 AM
Yes, Peter Dixon has great recipes, but you listed pH points in yours and some exotic cultures -so I was wondering where you got them. 

I am with Brian too. I think the SR3 is perfect for this. I would consider mixing it with some geo or cheese yeast.  I wouldn't use PLA for this one. PLA is too specific aromatically and doesn't really smell like Taleggio. I also think it may be slow to develop at the low temperature in which you are supposed to age the Taleggio.

I would like to comment conceptual about altering formulas.
Protein-to-fat ratio is really important in developing texture and flavor. Generally, cheese recipes are designed to enable the development curve of texture and the development curve of flavor to eventually meet up in sync at some coordinated end point when the cheese matures. The breakdown of fatty acids (lipolisys) creates flavor. Breakdown of proteins (proteolysis) develops texture.  If you disrupt the balance between those (oh, say ...by adding cream and tripling the amount of fat), your cheese will render fundamentally different. Cream doesn't make the cheese creamy, it makes it sharper and softer. Creaminess and suppleness are derived from proteins and the lactic bacteria. Easy to remember when planning a cheese:
FAT = FLAVOR        PROTEIN = PASTE  (or, PÂTÉ)

And so, if you want to get Taleggio, I suggest to stick with the recipe. Use milk without cream.  If you are looking for creamier cheese (and in my opinion classic Telaggio is plenty creamy, you don't want to feel like you are eating salted butter), you can play with the cultures to achieve that.

One thing I can't understand; if you have access to raw milk -why would you mix it with supermarket milk? It's like squeezing fresh oranges right into a cup of Sunny Delight!

As far as the formula goes, use 1/8th tsp TA50 per your 1 gallon batch. If it's 100% raw milk and very fresh, you can take it down to 1/16 tsp.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 04, 2012, 01:09:13 PM
I do plan on using the SR3 (once it arrives)...included Geo in the mix, so that should show up on the surface growth soon.
Thanks for explaining the cream/fat/flavor/protein connection! 
The only discussions, previously, involving fat content were concerning texture, not flavor. The triple cream cams I have eaten were anything but bitter, so I assumed that the difference between a triple cream and a brie, for instance, was mainly in the cream/fat content. I am not a fan of brie, but I do like a triple cream cam.
Regarding the combination of HP milk and raw was simply an experiment in an effort to extend the dollars spent on cheesemaking. With a fixed income I have budgeted a specific number of dollars towards cheesemaking. I felt that the mix would provide a better result than HP by itself and would increase the amount of cheeses I could make. ($3 vs $8/gallon).

How does one "play with the cultures" to achieve creaminess? My previous perception was that creaminess was a function of process...I will be attempting another Taleggio make and will endeavor to stick more to a single recipe, as opposed to an amalgamation of several. One thing I have discovered is the variety of recipes that, apparently, produce similar results. When I search the forum here for a cheese recipe I often find 2 or 3, and perhaps, another 2 or 3 on other websites all differing in various ways.

The lack of instant feedback (eating the cheese!  haha) is rather disconcerting, since when I cook (and I am a very good cook...my kids have often encouraged me to open a restaurant...but that is just too much work and too time consuming for this period in my life) I can a) sample the work in progress and make adjustments to suit my target taste and  b) get virtually instant feedback by being able to sample the finished product relatively soon.

I really do appreciate all the feedback and information y'all have provided on this website...makes my cheesemaking much more enjoyable   :)
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Boofer on September 04, 2012, 02:14:59 PM
Bruce, the only thing I can suggest in answer to your (and most everyone else's) need for quick feedback, is to write detailed, copious notes covering all aspects of your cheeses. Including pictures (1000's of words) helps to tell the story of a particular cheese as well. Solicit opinions on your finished cheeses from other folks such as family, neighbors, and coworkers; they may offer some piece of information that may have eluded you. Add these to your notes for quality improvement for the next cheese make.

I know I'm probably telling you something that you already know. Maybe it helps someone else.

What's really hard is making a cheese that requires extended aging (12 months or longer) and not knowing if your process/technique is correct until that cheese is opened. I'm in that mode right now with my Cheddars. I would like to make a Wasabi Cheddar but I don't know if my basic cheese process is correct for the Cheddar style.  ???  :-\

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 04, 2012, 03:21:51 PM
yeah...I am making notes, even regarding daily progress in some cases (such as development of rind and affinage conditions) and taking a few pictures....but really, such as in the case of the cams, I just dont know, until I eat some, if the process has been a success...as such I am reluctant to try another make until I get that "feedback".

The note taking/recording of every step of the process is probably the most important of my learnings since joining this forum!!  An awesome tool...I just need to learn more so that I can begin to really know what adjustments to the recipes to make to achieve desired results. I have some basics, but really dont have enough knowledge or experience. More telling is the fact that other than the feta and cream cheese I have made I have yet to actually eat one of my creations lol.

Iratherfly's remark about cream making a cheese more bitter seems counter-intuitive to me, since (in cooking) sauces are my specialty and if I want a rich and creamy, perhaps even slightly sweet, sauce adding or using cream as the base is the way to go. Hence most of my cheeses made to date have added cream.....I guess I need to seriously rethink that.

My next make is going to be a Gorgonzola Dulce and I had planned to add cream to that (big surprise!) lol...now I am not so sure.

Based on the taleggio outcome (which I wont know for quite a while) I will probably be remaking that recipe and making it much simpler (no added cream and fewer cultures).

Thanks again for all the remarks as well as your copious notes in many of your other makes...because of your experiences with blues I will be making a slurry and adding it to the curds before (or during) scooping into forms.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: BobE102330 on September 04, 2012, 04:04:33 PM
I mixed the slurry into the milk when I added cultures.  Maybe that is why it grew so aggressively... 
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 04, 2012, 04:16:07 PM
That was my take on Boofer's experiences...and seems to make sense, although the "vitality" of the culture slurry would also play a part...Since I am looking for a milder blue flavor I decided to add the blue slurry after coagulation.

Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: BobE102330 on September 04, 2012, 04:28:45 PM
It will be interesting to see if it makes a difference. 
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: soleuy on September 04, 2012, 08:33:59 PM
I admit I´m a bit lost with  the discussion about starter cultures. But I´ll put here the only information I've got about the traditional inoculation for this cheese ( I don't know if this is the correct word).
This is a paragraph of an Italian book Ive got( Mucchetti 2006), it´s part of the recipe for Taleggio.
“Tipo de innesto : Talvolta si usa lattoinnesto naturale termofilo, ma in prevalenza si impiegano colture liquide o preaparate a inoculo diretto in caldaia costituiti da una miscela di Streptoccuus termophilus e Lactobacillus delbrueckii spp. bulgaricus messa apunto negli anni cinquanta.”

It says that they use natural  thermophilic starter or a manufactured culture mix of Streptoccuus termophilus e Lactobacillus delbrueckii spp. bulgaricus.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 04, 2012, 10:20:03 PM
Good info! Thanks!  Those strains were included in the mix I used, I believe, along with a couple others.
The Casu culture was comprised of: Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis, Lactobacillus helveticus, so the helveticus is "extra"...one or 2 (I forget now) of the other recipes I found called for a meso, which is why I added the combination that would be similar to flora danica.
Will be interesting to see what it winds up tasting like  haha
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: boothrf on September 04, 2012, 11:53:40 PM
bbracken, I understand your frustrations! One thing cheesemaking has taught me is ........P A T I E N C E.........  I'm normally used to getting quick results and feedback, but with my cheesemaking I just have to be patient.  I sometime wish I could make much bigger batches, so I had enough samples to taste one every week of maturation! ;)

Regarding the learning process, I totally agree with boofer, taking lots of notes and photos really helps. I also found that concentrating on one variety and aiming to "perfect" that really helped me focus my learnings. I spent 9 months just on simple cams initially, and have only now branched out into pressed cheeses. This allowed me to keep very focused on the one cheesemaking process and get to know it well. I was even able to get a better understanding of the seasonal variations in environmental conditions that us home cheesemakes need to contend with. ie make room temps varying from 12C to 40C!

I also research various recipes, and like you, often end up with 3-4 slightly different versions. I usually defer to a recipe from the forum, rather than random websites, as I can usually see the results and know a lot more about the cheesemaker from their forum posts! ie I develop a level of trust in their processes and recipes.

Good luck with your upcoming projects, I'll be watching with much interest!
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 05, 2012, 12:05:46 AM
Thanks Bob! Funny thing is, regarding most things in life, I am actually pretty patient, but with cheeses (being similar to cooking) I find that there is a bit of a disconnect lol

But yeah...no real choice but to be patient  :)

I dont think I want to just focus on one style of cheese...there are just too many I enjoy. Besides...given the delay in feedback I have to wait until one is ripe in order to be able to tweak a process or formula...in the meantime I could initiate other projects to run in parallel, so to speak.

Love cheesemaking! Just about every aspect is cool...the research, the formulation, the process, the community and specially....Frankenstein's monster! It's alive! .... oh wait...no.... cheesey goodness!
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Boofer on September 05, 2012, 06:18:01 AM
....Frankenstein's monster! It's alive! .... oh wait...no.... cheesey goodness!
By jove, I think he's got it!

It's like your birthday and Christmas (or favorite holiday ;)) whenever you open a cheese!  8)

Yeah, Bruce, I'm with you...concentrate on just a few select cheese styles at a time!  :D

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 10, 2012, 03:11:31 PM
I have been washing the cheeses in an SR3 and 3% brine solution for the past week...there is a slight geo growth, I believe, but no sign of the SR3 yet. They have become a bit moist to the touch, so I have set them out for a few hours to dry. I ran into an issue last week where I apparently contaminated my SR3 wash and had to mix another batch up. Not sure if that has anything to do with the moist exterior or if they just need another salt application before resuming the SR3 application.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Boofer on September 11, 2012, 02:50:19 AM
They look good. Be careful that the rack isn't rustable. Some folks have done that and had rusty red marks underneath.  :o

Patience. Sometimes the linens takes a while. It also needs to breathe, so take them out for an airing every so often.

-Boofer-


Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 11, 2012, 03:00:11 AM
Thanks for the advice!

The rack is stainless and no problems so far....the racks are solely for my cheese. Cookies can rest elsewhere  haha
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 11, 2012, 06:47:40 PM
Looking good!
The B.Linens will grow strong. In fact, when the cheese is dark beige, you should stop the wash and the geo will mature to the strong orange within a week or two. This is your 2nd week so you need to give the B.Linens more time to grow now, space your washed now to once every 3 days and next week do only 1 or 2 washes, then stop.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 11, 2012, 07:31:21 PM
Ok cool  :)  They are hanging out in the cave atm...left them out a few hours a day or 2 ago and gave them a light dusting of salt. About time for another wash!

Thanks for the advice! 
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 12, 2012, 06:39:29 AM
Why do you dust them with salt?  Too much salt may kill the b.linen. It also dries and salts the cheese. You only use it as an abrasive once or twice on some cheeses. You should have 3-4% in your b.linen morge which is perfect.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 12, 2012, 03:06:22 PM
Thanks....wasnt sure what to do and since the cheeses were a bit slimy I thought a bit of salt may be what is called for....is the slime related to the b.linens?
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 12, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
The slime is probably moccase. That's geo having a party.  You can retake control by reducing temperature / humidity.  Remember what I said about geo loving fat? That's probably related to you adding cream. When you do that, you may want to adjust the conditions to restrict or slow down geo growth.  Overgrowth of geo also inhibits B.Linen growth because too much nutrients are consumed by the geo so the B.Linen is starving.  Luckily though, B.Linens are really great at growing in lower temperature so if you lower the temperature you can have great growth of B.Linen while slowing down the Geo. Do I make sense?

Did you use geo? Which type?
What's your aging temperature now?  Note that Taleggio is aged at particularly cool temperatures. Much colder than most washed rind cheeses.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 12, 2012, 08:09:10 PM
I will have to check what geo I used...the cheese is aging at 41F and 85-87% RH (except for the few hours I had it sitting out to breathe yesterday, or day before).  I can drop the temp a bit more but they are in the same container with the cams...that may have "helped" the geo growth as well    :)  Will keep up with the b.linens brine wash...since I left it sitting out and gave it a taste of salt the slimy has just about gone away.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 13, 2012, 04:36:45 AM
41°F is good temperature. No need to change. Geo will be kept in check. The salt might have killed it off and dried off the surface, but it may be fighting the B.Linen too.
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 14, 2012, 11:59:44 PM
The Geo I used was: GEO 15 LYO 10 D.   I checked it today, and gave it another b.linens wash and they look much improved with a tad bit of an orangish hue showing as well as areas of mild whitish barely distinguishable growth. No gooey stuff lol 

We seems back on track here so far.

What flavor characteristics to b.linens impart to a cheese?
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: iratherfly on September 18, 2012, 06:56:50 AM
Stinky! It also helps break down acidic pastes. Sulfuric, meaty notes. Enhancing the meaty and beer/yeast properties. The mild supple interior stands up to the stinky qualities and it's just a fantastic combination
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 21, 2012, 01:36:22 PM
Here is a pic of the taleggios next to my 2 cams for contrast in color.

Everything seems to be progressing well, although slowly.   :D

Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Boofer on September 22, 2012, 06:22:17 AM
Looking good, Bruce! How soon before one of these gets sampled? Not rushing...just asking.  ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: Tomer1 on September 22, 2012, 07:44:07 AM
Niice!
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 29, 2012, 12:45:47 AM
Looks like maybe a couple more weeks. They are ripening ever so slowly...I am considering moving them to a warmer part of the cave. They have been aging at 41F, but I am thinking perhaps a period of 50ish may speed things up. I can always move back to 41 if things seem to be getting out of hand.

I am really looking forward to trying these out!
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: JeffHamm on September 29, 2012, 03:45:27 AM
Be careful though.  Sometimes speeding things up doesn't go so well.  If they are developing slowly then I would recommend you at least leave one of each as is.  Slower development can result in more complex flavours and deeper ripening, so moving only one of each would at least give you a chance to compare.  Also, there's no need to have them all ready at the same time, so this would help extend your cheese time. 

They look really good by the way.

- Jeff
Title: Re: 1st Taleggio make
Post by: bbracken677 on September 29, 2012, 07:09:05 PM
Thanks Jeff...I may just do that (moving just one each). Havent moved anything yet...last couple of days have been kinda busy. Makes sense to not have them all ripen together. Mainly I was talking about the taleggios though.

I am thinking that I may try another make...I have updated my recipe to a more accurate one (I believe). Maybe this week...or next. Unfortunately the next couple of weeks I will be busy and wont have much time for cheese making, but I should be able to slide a make or 2 in.

I also want to make a Forme d' Ambert...I just got back from the cheese festival they are having at Central Market here...I looked at a lot of their blues for "inspiration"....we wont discuss the drooling   :D