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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: Cartierusm on December 12, 2008, 01:37:14 AM

Title: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 12, 2008, 01:37:14 AM
So I built a prototype last week of a curd knife. Horrible. PITA. SO today I built 3, 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". These seem alright I'll try them this weekend. The stringers going across are 1/16" Stainless Steel Tig Wire, which I tigged on of cource. Still once I got a design down it wasn't hard to build them but originally I was going to use smaller stringers but couldn't figure out a good way to secure them. I tried everything. Anyway here are some pics of the finished product. I was going to put a handle on then realized I can just turn them to the side and use them for the entire operation.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 12, 2008, 02:16:42 AM
Cartierusm,

You are just killing me.
;)

I envy your building skills.


Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 12, 2008, 08:44:29 AM
Wayne, I gave you a cheese. Don't know what that means but you now have one.

Thanks for the praise. I'm in the process of starting a restaurant and regular work is slow, so I have the time.

Of course I just realized another way I might have made the curd knives. I tried soldering, but realized that the torch was heating and allowing the wire to stretch, I was using .023" SS welding wire for my Mig welder. SO that was out. I tried drilling holes and then cutting notches in the side of the SS frame and everything was a no go. When it came to using the Mig wire I just couldn't get the wire taught enought to stay straight. SO I ended up Tig welding regular tig SS rod 1/16". Then a few minutes ago I realized I could have tried using my regular soldering iron which would melt solder but not damage stainless steel. A little late now as the other ones are built, but if I need to make further alterations I'll keep it in mind. I couldn't solder them now even if I wanted to the dam plastic bottle the SS acid comes in shattered in my hand and all over the shop a friggin' mess. Thank god I was wearing latex gloves.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 13, 2008, 12:54:09 PM
I actually looked into getting a curd knife made for me.
I contacted Terry at Dairy Fab  (http://www.curdknives.com/index.html)

He makes great custom knives,  but holy crap they are expensive.  I had no idea how expensive. 
I want one like this:
(http://www.curdknives.com/knives/Round%20vat%20curd%20cut.jpg)
This starts as about 950 USD.

Looks like i will be taking my lead from Cartierusm, and making my own.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 13, 2008, 06:50:53 PM
Holy Crap! I was only going to charge you $949, Wayne...LOL I would make you one but I still a ways to go to figure out how to use thinner wire and string it tight. Even Dairy Fab's wires are not completely taught.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 13, 2008, 11:01:45 PM
I just got back from the store,  I was bored and took a ride to the local hardware store for ideas for my curd knife.

You mentioned something about the wires not being taught.  I'm not sure how to make the wires very tight without requireing a very thick/sturdy knife frame.

That got me thinking. 

How bad is it if the wires have a bit of play in them?.  Not a lot mind you,  but enough that if i were to pull on one, it moves say 1/4in.

That would not really impact the straightness of the curd cut.

And,  I would not have to use a real thick frame.

So again,  how bad is it, if a curd-knife's wires are not under great tension?



Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 13, 2008, 11:22:08 PM
Well depends the reason for the wires to be straight is so that they cut a certain size cube. Once you start pulling it would probably self align because the resistance of the curd would pull it to it's furthers poin from the frame and equalizing the distance. Should work fine. Actually to get enough tension so it stays relatively straight doesn't take as much forch as you would think.

If you have a nice shop vice all you would have to do is get 1/2" x 1/8" Stainless steel flat bar, here it's $16 for 12', so you probably should just buy an entire stick. Then mark your first bend point, put it in the vice tight and hit with a hammer. That's how I did mine. I did weld it shut, but it you have a propane torch for sweatin copper you do that if you buy the correct flux. It's an aicd base made by Harris. Or just bend the two ends where they meet drill a hole and bolt it shut with a SS screw and nut. Then go to your local welding shop, not store but an acutal welder, and ask for like 20' of .023" Mig welding wire or buy a small spool at the welding supply store and start it off with a wrap and a loose twist, a hard tight twist made with a pair of pliers would break the wire, it's kind of brittle. So twist with your hands then use pliers to pull it taught as you wrap it around the frame. As it goes around each side just wrap it once and so on.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 14, 2008, 01:15:11 AM
Very interesting.

So, i'm  looking at some SS flatbar here (http://www.discountsteel.com/index.cfm/go/main.itemDisplay/itemID/111.htm)

But I can't help but wonder how you get this knife INTO the curd without just crushing a 1/2 in wide hole into the curd when you initially push the knife into the curd.

I wonder if one could just place the knife in the milk just prior to adding the rennet, and let the curd set around the knife.

I'm curious what the Mig welding wire had to do with the setup?  I was gonna look for SS "safety" wire (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/safetywire.php). 


Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 14, 2008, 06:40:17 AM
Sorry I guess I said a little more in my head than in the post. I figured out using SS Mig wire would be way cheaper than finding regular SS wire. I even Priced out SS Guitar Strings and they were like $5 a pop. The wire would be used as the cutting wire.

As for lowering it into the abyss, you kind of lower it in at an angle it really won't hurt anything.

I guess you could start with it in but I would think it's a bit cumbersome to work around.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Tea on December 14, 2008, 08:56:52 PM
I recently watched a cooking show here, and they were showcasing a boutique cheese factory that was making goats cheeses.  They briefly showed them cutting a vat of curd, and I was stunned at what they were using.
It looked like a large homemade fly swat.  (I hope that a fly swatter in not used only in Aussie and you know what I am talking about??)

They had bent a piece of wire to fit the inside dimentions of the vat, then in the most haphazard way, had strung wire across the frame similar to stringing a tennis racquet.  You could see where the wired had been wound around the edges to secure.  It was rough!  :o

Just thought I would add, as it seems that tight tension on the wires is not necessarily needed.  Althought it is interesting seeing what you both are concocting up.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 14, 2008, 09:06:06 PM
As i said in previous posts,  much of the allure of cheesemaking/winemaking is the tinkering required. 

I am not the tinkerer that Cartierusm is, but i try.

Right now, my curd knife is only in my head.  As I collect material and make progress, i will post pictures.


Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 23, 2008, 11:02:21 PM
Just a little update on the curd knives I made. They work!. They worked perfectly. You have to go slower than I thought or the curds move and shift.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 24, 2008, 03:10:21 AM
Congrats!. 
I will be building mine at some point.  I may follow this style.
(http://vxxwgg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pNXfg6P-JSI4jKgyxJHG_itz51I5fsfTOm7Ad0m4snSYi8R_s0sXEq6fpwzIxe54sQ0H8sVq2hKqi6Kv2jPbiNw/cutting%20the%20curd.jpg)

Some of the hardware can be found here. (http://www.bosunsupplies.com/ProductPadEyeUEyeBolts.cfm)
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 25, 2008, 12:31:34 AM
After my seconds batch I don't like the curd knives I built I'm going to redesign. The wire I used is 1/16" which is way too big, I need small wire, which I have, I just have to figure out how to tension.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on December 25, 2008, 02:36:28 AM
If you look close at the picture in my previous post, you will notice that the SS wire is held taught by SS eye-hooks.  They are merely screwed in tighter...
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 25, 2008, 04:12:23 AM
I saw that but I'm trying to do horizontal cuts, that's the hard one to make. But your picture did give me ideas.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 30, 2008, 05:03:14 AM
I made the new curd knife today, what a calamity. It's was hard. Here it is in all it's glory. It's in the dishwasher now on one of it's 3 washes.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cheese Head on December 30, 2008, 01:23:40 PM
Cartier, great work!

Assume you know you could have just ordered one (http://www.curdknives.com/), albeit probably for several hundred $'s.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 30, 2008, 06:12:33 PM
Oh, I know, I've talked to dairy fab and for 2 knives 24" x 30" it's $2000. So what do you think CH, should I have bought them or made them? LOL
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cheese Head on December 30, 2008, 06:32:31 PM
Looks to me like you saved yourself USD1900 after tax . . . congrats!
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 31, 2008, 12:54:16 AM
I have a few techniques to work out then I might make them for sale, the hard part is the even tensioning.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cheese Head on December 31, 2008, 01:58:51 PM
Small question that you may already answering in a different post, why did you weld on the wires rather than do a tennis racket style continuous threaded wire?
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on December 31, 2008, 07:55:18 PM
You could but then if ONE wire breaks you have to restring the entire thing. But mainly it's a matter of drilling really small holes into stainless steel which is pretty hard. I tried this at first and would probably prefer it but the bits kept breaking. Plus, have you ever seens someone restring a tennis racket? Trust me it's an art form all its own, trying to kep all switchbacks taught is a job.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: chilipepper on January 02, 2009, 05:06:53 PM
So what about using something like this: Stainless Wire Mesh http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/product/~category_id=TWPCAT_14/~product_id=002X002WT0216W48T (http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/product/~category_id=TWPCAT_14/~product_id=002X002WT0216W48T)

You would still have the trouble of making a frame of some sort but the tedious work of stretching and spacing seems to be taken care of.  Price is not bad at $5/square foot (however there is a $75 minimum).  You would get both the vert. and horiz. cuts at once....

Or is there something I'm missing by utilizing a mesh like that for a knife. Most of the designs have one cut isolated from the other.  Does the curd not like to squish through little squares?

BTW, Cartierusm, that is impressive work once again! well and again with the modified v.2.0!
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 02, 2009, 05:43:15 PM
I'm not sure. It could be the squishing. It also could be the same, what if a wire breaks? Could be a sanitary thing, what if stuff can get inbetween where the wires cross. If I can find it locally I might try it. That's a good question, good work Chili.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 02, 2009, 07:21:39 PM
Chili, I emailed the guy at Dairy Fab and asked him this question and he said the only concern he would have is what I said, the sanitary issue. Particles of crap getting in there. The problem with the old style, as I made, is tentioning the wires is almost impossible. I won't go into the specifics but I do retention them after soldering them on, working my way back and forth, anyway, it's very difficult as the frame bends a little each time. What I like about the mesh idea is that I don't have to cut 120 individual wires, they will always be tentioned to each other. The work then is easy. So I will come up with a price and take pre orders for the finished product and then make a test piece. I need to take pre orders as you said it's a $75 minimum order, the probelm is I talked to the company, it's $75 minumum on each pieces and I would need 1/4" and 1/2". I do have some recipes that call for 3/8" but I think that's over kill, 1/2" would work fine.

For those of you reading this I will reply to this post in a few minutes and give a price for curds knives of a certain size and will go from there as a general idea of price cost. I will repost this in the selling area, please respond to that area for a preorder and give the size you need, size of the frame and size of the mesh either 1/2" or 1/4". I've been manufactuering items my entire life so believe me when I say to take a ton of measurements to make sure the final product will fit into your vat. I always subtract 1/2" from each side to make sure the cutter goes through easy and doesn't bind. It doesn't need to fit perfect. Plus it probably won't cost more to have it extra tall, that way if you go to bigger batches you can use it for that. They will have SS handles if you want.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: chilipepper on January 02, 2009, 09:07:16 PM
Cartierusm, what you've got going really sounds good. I can certainly understand your pain in individually tensioning each of those wires and then the stress on the frame makes it a serious task!

I can certainly understand the sanitization issue with the wire mesh and see where one might have to take some extra care when cleaning, sanitizing and storing.  I see that they do 'sell' samples for $8 each.  I guess that could be a good way to really analize the quality and usability before committing to the $75 order (or $150 for the 2 sizes).

I do agree that having the 2 sizes would be good and possibly the 3/8 inch might be nice but possible overkill.  However, if you do make and sell these, there may be some that would rather just compromise on the 3/8th inch and get one rather than buying the 2.  You may end up buying some 3/8th inch anyway. 

Did you speek to anyone at the TWP company?  I would also be somewhat interested if these are 'food grade' or if they use a sanitized weld to join those wires.  As for the sanitizing issue for the end user, if you have a dishwasher with a sanitizing cycle that would probably cover you.  Unless your knife ends up larger that the dishwasher can handle! :)

Anyway, great info and if you would like someone to help 'beta' test I'd be very interested! Plus it would save me from having to brunt a minimum order and the R&D myself.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: chilipepper on January 02, 2009, 09:38:54 PM
One other quick thought about the sanitization is that how would the sanitization issue be much different than they typical mesh strainer??
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 02, 2009, 10:39:39 PM
Sanitation wouldn't be an issue if you have a bucket of Star San to dunk it in or if you have a dish washer.

Here is what I came up with. Normally a set of 2 professional curd knives 24" x 36" are $2000. I'm only going to charge $1000. Who wants one? LOL Just kidding.

For the Dedicated Amateur #1: (cough under my breath "wayne")
1/2" Squares (.478") 316 Food Grade Sanitary Stainless Steel. 12" wide by 22" high. With angled Stainless Steel Handle. $100.00 does not include shipping.

For the Dedicated Amateur #2:
1/2" Squares (.478") 316 Food Grade Sanitary Stainless Steel. 6" wide by 22" high. With angled Stainless Steel Handle. $90.00 does not include shipping.

For the Home User:
1/2" Squares (.478") 316 Food Grade Sanitary Stainless Steel. 5" wide by 12" high. With angled Stainless Steel Handle. $85.00 does not include shipping.

A lot of this is just for the materials besides the mesh itself. There is a lot of construction in it as well. And even though the smaller ones use less material it still takes the same amount of time to construct. These Prices are only for Cheeseforum members that have joined up until today's date. These are labor intensive so I'm just making these at this price for the current members. I'm going to try to sell some to the online cheese making supply stores and those will retail for about $200 - $300 or so. Not sure yet on pricing.

Custom Sizes available but I recommend Pro Model #2 as it will be more versatile and easier to handle. If you notice online videos of cheese making they don't use a curd knife as big as their vats. The move the knife around until they get all the curds.

I will provide clear written instruction on how to use and care for as well as a warranty. I will also have an online video showing how to use it effectively.

I'm looking to manufacturing Cheese Presses for home and professional, hoops for cheese molding with customized followers.

*****ATTENTION I didn't join this board to make money or sell any of my items, it just came about because people were asking. I plan on being a contributing member of this forum as long as I'm making cheese. I don't want people to think I've had an ulterior motive. Work for me right now is so slow I'm on the verge of going broke. So it's something to do and make a little money. I also have honestly priced these items WAY below what I would charge the public.

I will repost this in the selling section, John (CH) if I have violated any rule let me know and I'll stop posting stuff for sale. Thanks.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on January 03, 2009, 02:52:29 AM
I am going to wait to settle on a vat, then create my own custom cheese knives.


The thing with these knives are that depending on the cheese, you may need differently spaced knives. 

So,  I can see making both a 1/2" knife,  and a  1/4" knife.

Either way,  i will be going with the turnbuckle (http://vxxwgg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pNaaiKzvcZ2qNeysmF3q8_HQTBtV3CqLRHopvW0gwLZidYSm-JEqRhnGH5Xim_48zoowLJof0TQE/cutting%20the%20curd.jpg) approach when I make mine.  This is for two reasons.

1> I can keep the SS wire tight
2> I do not need to weld. (I have no welder.)
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 03, 2009, 02:59:29 AM
I agree it's a little expensive more than half is materials. What are you going to use to make the cross cuts, horizontal?
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: wharris on January 03, 2009, 03:02:11 AM
That is an interesting question.  I would ask that guy in my picture the same question. 

I wonder how much he relies on simple stirring to break up his "columns" of curd into small squares.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 03, 2009, 03:37:36 AM
Wayne, I don't think if you ask the picture it's going to talk back and if it does then we'll have to get you a nice padded room.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: chilipepper on January 03, 2009, 04:54:54 AM
 ;D ;D ;D

Talking to the pictures again... been there, done that! ;)

Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Likesspace on January 03, 2009, 06:02:22 AM
Well my opinion is this.....
I do a great job on my vertical cuts. I'm pretty much a perfectionist so I take great care in making my 1/4" or 1/2" cuts as exact as they can possibly be. The problem comes in when I have to do the horizontal cuts. I simply do not have a knife that will reach into the pot to make these. I've bent my wrist until they felt like they would fall off and have still been unable to get the columns cut.
What I am using now is almost too embarrassing to mention although it does work.
I took stainless stell pastry cutters/blenders and removed them from the handles. I then attached them to bamboo skewers. I have four of these spaced along the length of the skewers and I simply drag them through the curd. The problem is that in some places I get 1/4" cuts and in come places I get 5/8" cuts and every imaginable size in between. As I said, it does work and it's probably more exact than I can do with my spoon (my old method) but it would be so quick and easy to use one of these knives to make both the vertical and horizontal cuts with one pass.
In the past month I've spent well over $300.00 on molds, cultures, wax, cloth and salt. These are all necessary items in the cheesemaking business but what does it all mean if you get an inferior final product due to inferior methods used?
As I posted in the selling section offering, I'm in.
My plans are to buy one of the 1/2" knives and cut a little more aggressivly if I'm doing a swiss or cheddar. I'm sure it will work better than the whisk I currently use for a swiss and if it doesn't work well, I'll order one of the 1/4" knives for these cheeses.
Just my two cents.....

Dave
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 03, 2009, 06:09:17 AM
Dave, I agree it's much easier to cut smaller, but to cut bigger it needs to be more exact or you'll release too much whey. You can just double cut with 1/2" one and be fine.

Using a round vat I plan on sweeping the cutter along the circumference and then starting in the center use a regular curd knife (for frosting cakes) to cut radially toward the outside of the circle. You could use one knife for both ops if your vat was square, but with round it's a little more tricky so you don't over cut and get little bits....HA I get little bits no matter what I do, on that note I might splurge and buy the DAM expensive raw milk at whole foods and try a batch and see if it coagulated like it's supposed to.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Sing_cheese on January 07, 2009, 07:49:10 AM
I too only worry about the horizontal cuts.  Our solution was to get a food grade stainless wire mesh grill (1/2 inch squares) and cut out all of the vertical wires (actually you cut one and pull a bit and the whole wire usually comes up with it.  After a bit of working some of the mini-spot welds break off, in which case I wrap them with needle nose pliers back in place.  Seems to last about a month then its to bent up to work with so I make a new one.  Cost about S$10 for a 50cm/50cm square.

I did trie to run the whole screen through some curd and couldn't budge it without totally ruining the curds.

The vertical cuts are quite easy and as said - after a while you can do this quite easily.

Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 08, 2009, 08:12:21 AM
Gerrit, what was the diameter of the stainless wire, that may have somthing to do with it. I did order some 1/2" welded stainless mesh from a different supplier that the one posted by Chili. They had better stock but had a $75 minumum order. The one I ordered uses .047" wire and the other place uses .022, so a huge difference. If the piece I ordered doesn't work I'll just order some of the other stuff.
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Likesspace on January 09, 2009, 01:26:11 AM
Carter..
Does this mean you will be selling the curd knives since you ordered some of the mesh?
As I told you before, I'm definately in if that's the case.

Dave
Title: Re: Curd Cutter - Carter's Build
Post by: Cartierusm on January 09, 2009, 06:00:15 AM
Depends on how many I get out of it. The probelm I realized is the mesh I ordered, I ordered from a different company and the wire size is twice as big, .047 instead of .022 so I hope it cuts instead of just pushing the curds around. I might return it, if I can and just go buy $75 worth of the other stuff. Dave, I'll let you know.