CheeseForum.org ยป Forum
CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Sing_cheese on January 06, 2009, 02:21:48 PM
-
My "holy grail" in Cheesemaking is to make soft washed rine cheeses in the style of Epoisses. I have one batch of muenster going at the moment. think some of the process should be similar at least in regards to early development and orange bacteria (B. Linens). I just waxed these without too much success with the bacteria showing. I have also done a Cammbert like version with B. Linens and have been washing it e3very other day with Marc (de Champaigne in this case - only Marc I could find in Singapore). Results do not look promising (despite an interesting aroma).
I have expermented with very slow rennetting (18, 12, 6 hours) as indicated by some of the research that I have done. I have had no success with this (always gave me sour very weak curds that did not look healthy enough to work with). I have recently looked at using a brie recipe and working more on the aging and daily care aspect. I figure that if I can create a good soft cheese of about 3-4 weeks to maturity, I can refine the curd making after getting this nearer the goal (and at least have something edible to show for my work).
I am thinking it may require a closed, very high humudity environment for bacteria growth and a rather cold ~45f environment. Perhaps I will try the plastic boxes that I use for growing bloomy camemberts. Has anyone had any experience in trying for this style of cheese? If so any pointers would be appreciated.
I have cheese making logs and notes of several attempts and so far only a couple of funky muensters and some hard as hockey pucks (yet smelly) disks that I am sure are not the consistancy I am looking for.
If any one is interested in collaberating on making this kind of chesse I would welcome sharing the logs of my failures as well.
Thanks,
Gerrit
-
Check following sites: BL doesn't grow well below 50F
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes.shtml)
Try Tallegio
http://books.google.com/books?id=NEItzh7YTqAC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=dornic+acid+test&source=web&ots=VYiv0-LFk1&sig=EXTHfE7Y3TToUHlAhTX3oSSO6WA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPR11,M1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=NEItzh7YTqAC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=dornic+acid+test&source=web&ots=VYiv0-LFk1&sig=EXTHfE7Y3TToUHlAhTX3oSSO6WA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPR11,M1)
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/ (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/)
-
Hello Old Dutch Cheese in New York and welcome to the forum!
Checked out the Heine-n-Nellie cheese making blog in your signature line (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/), you sure have been making a huge range of cheese, most look wonderful, (a few not so), welcome to the forum appreciate any more advice you have!
-
Oude Kass,
Funny you should suggest that book. I ordered from Amozon a week ago and my daughter is bringing it back to singapore when she comes on the weekend. She said over the phone that she had check it out and thought we had finally found "the book" we needed. I look forward to getting my hands on it when she gets back,
Will try a bit warmer environment as well for the B linens. How do you keep the cheese soft? One of my problems is the resulting cheese is like a hockey puck after about 2 weeks, cant imaging that it will ever sften up and be edible.
Gerrit
-
I have tried to age my Epoisses tries at around 46f at 80% humidity and even with regular washings they have become very hard and not runny at all. I have also tried using B linens in the milk and spraying. what are you doing to different to make the cheese not hard. My comment on the other thread regarding trying them in plastic boxes for the first few days was an idea to keep them soft.
Also, when you used lactic acid renetting (with a small anount of rennet) for 16+ hours, did you get a curd formed below a layer of whey and some top floating sourish scum? This was my result and I did not trust the underlying curd so I dumped it. Also what sort of temp did you do the extended lactic acid renneting? I am in Singapore and have tried doing it both at the ambient evening temp (86f) and have tried it in my cave that is mimicing high latitude ambient room temp (72f) and both times had the same smelly results. Also I was using 6-8 drops of veg rennet. Are you using animal rennet instead (I have not tried this yet and am not sure if it will make a difference).
Thanks,
Gerrit
-
I keep my aging cave and fridges at 90% rh minimum.
Some very helpful and hands on information can be found in: http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml (http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/publications.shtml)
I really recommend it.
I do get a lactic curd. The scum you refer to might be fat floating on top which happens when using non-homogenized cows milk. You can ladle this off and use it as sour cream. Because goat milk is naturally homogenized, this does not happen. Some cow breeds have smaller fat particles and it is less likely to occur.
I use animal rennet, but I also manage to establish a curd without any rennet.
If the pH is high in the milk you are using (late lactation or mastitis) it might be hard to get a lactic curd.
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/ (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/)
-
Any pics of these kind of cheese?
-
Here are some pictures of my first attempts. I am still working on improvement.
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/06/broken-rind.html (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/06/broken-rind.html)
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/06/broken-rind-continue.html (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/06/broken-rind-continue.html)
Here's a better looking one:
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/05/smears.html (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2008/05/smears.html)
-
Are you sure that's not an alien head? LOL Looks interesting. Any more pics of your cave, how big is it looks nice.
-
Go to http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/ (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/) and browse the archive.
-
Oude, you've got a hell of an operation there. Your cheese are very very impressive. I have a couple questions if you don't mind.
1. I see you have mold and bacteria cheese in the same cave as your gouda and regular cheese do you find that they cross contaiminate?
2. By having the cheese directly on the wood do you find the bottom of the cheese stays wet?
3. How do you keep the cheese cloth on your cheese press from creating wrinkles or a divit on the top where the follower goes?
-
Thanks for the compliments.
In answer to your questions: no, I don't have cross contaminations, although I do keep blue cheeses separate and I do wash the hard rind cheeses regularly (I do not wax).
If you turn the cheeses regularly, at least daily or once every other day for the first four or five weeks, they are fine.
For the last two times of redressing the cheese with the cloth during pressing, I do not dress the top face of the cheese. The cloth hangs over the hoop and the follower sits directly on the cheese.
-
Thanks good to know. I noticed your list of books you recommend, where did you get all the recipes you seem to make all sort of interesting cheeses?
-
I use some from here:
http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes.shtml
(http://www.dairyfoodsconsulting.com/recipes.shtml)
I have used recipes from Margaret Morris's book, Kosikokowski's book (see the list on my blog) and various other procedures for cheeses I have found in the books I list. A lot of these procedures are very rudimental, but with some know how of the cheese making process, they are a good basis for working a recipe.
-
Thanks.
-
Hi Sing, I was wondering if this thread has helped you in finding the answers you were looking for?
I would love to work with you on this cheese, but I need to set up a better cave arrangement first, before I could commit to doing so. The softer cheese intrigue me also, and these are the ones that I am wanting to perfect also.
-
Tea,
This thread has brought out a heap of suggestions. I have had very little luck with lactic acid curd formation. Or perhaps I have just too chicken to try the smelly curds that Ihave formed using this method (and I have wasted 3 patches of 12.5 Liters of milk on this already).
I have taken Oude Kasse's advice and put up a batch of Tallegio (peter dixon recipe) this past weekend. Here is the link to the process and some early pictures of what I did:
http://sites.google.com/site/urbanfarmsteadcheeselog/Home/tallegio-11-01-09
I figure if I can make the tallegio turn out OK then I am on my way to making something like epoisses. I cant resist the temptation to experiment and try to speed the learning process so I split the batch into two and am trying the following varients
Batch one (3 cheeses) - age in colder cheese cave ~45f and wash with brine solution every two days
Batch two (3 cheeses) - age in warmer cheese cave _54f spraw with b-linens, wash with brine every two days for first 10 days and then wash with Marc every other day there after.
I will age both batches about 5 weeks before giving them a try.
I am also putting these in plastic humidity boxes (tupperware like I use for Camemberts) as my caves tend to run at around 75% humidity and I have trouble getting good mold growth (my other attempts that got to this stage in the open cheese cave were all hard like hockey pucks).
Many thanks to all who have made input on this thread. I will keep you posted as the cheeses develop.
Gerrit
-
I just did my first spraying of B-linens on the four cheeses on the right in this picture. I am using the three on the right as a control group using the peter dixon recipe for tallegio. I plan on starting to wash the B-linen treated cheeses in Marc every other day after about of week of B-linen development. Anyone know when I should start seeing the B-linen orange coloring start to show. I am aging this batch in ~54f cave and the control batch in my colder cave (~45f).
Gerrit
-
The cheeses are now about 1 week in the cave had been washing with 5% brine solution (control group) and the warmer cave ones with 5% plus b linens. No mold of an kind yet or color. How long till the orange color from B-linens should start to show?
Thanks,
Gerrit
-
My cheese book says that after 3-4 weeks of ripening a sticky orange surface will start to appear.
So you may have a few more weeks before you see anything. HTH
-
If you have not already read through this site there is some good information there: Fromagerie-Berthaut (http://www.fromagerie-berthaut.com/site_uk.html)
I found this statement very interesting (quote from their site)
"A patient re-wiping precedes the maturing of about five weeks, during
which the cheese receives manual and individual care, two to three times a
week, with water loaded more and more with Marc de Bourgogne. Its rind
then slowly takes on a beautiful red-orange tint. Its aroma is rich, its
flavours stay sweet and subtle."
Here is some info on Marc de Bourgogne. (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-marc-de-bourgogne.htm) Basically a spirit distilled from spent grapes.
What would be interesting to know if there is still B. linens utilized or if somehow the Marc de Bourgogne creates the similar reaction? I would think you would still need the B. linens bacterium. So to what effect does the spirit have on the rind?
-
This is basically what I am trying to do. HAving had poor luck with real lactic acid renetting, am using tallegio rcipe as a base as the tallegio base that have tried before at least has similar texture and form. I am using Marc De Chamgagne as it is the only Marc that I have been able to find. It is made the same way the marc in epoisses but a slightly different grape remains from the wine pressing. It is basically like a Grappa and I assume the correct marc is near the same. Have been washing with a 5% brine and b-linen laced solution ecery other day and will start to add the marc to the mixture later in the week.
I have some plane tellegio's from the same batch that are just getting a plain wash with brine at the same schedule.
-
Well what ever happens keep us informed on how this one goes. I am watching this one with interest.
Best of luck.