CheeseForum.org » Forum

CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cooked (Swiss) => Topic started by: Sailor Con Queso on March 31, 2010, 10:45:35 PM

Title: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 31, 2010, 10:45:35 PM
I have made several of these lately so they can start aging (one tonight in fact). This is similar to Gruyere but has a much more complex bacterial mix and pH targets are a little more acidic because of the addition of the Meso culture. It is scalded to a higher temperature and is allowed to sit for 24 hours before brining. Traditional Beaufort is not very common in the marketplace. If you like Gruyere, you'll LOVE Beaufort.

Alpine Beaufort

5 gallons of whole milk heated to 90F

Starter Cultures:

Mesophilic  - MA011 (1/8 tsp). This develops the initial acidity at the lower ripening temperatures.

Thermophilic  - TA061 (dash - 1/16 tsp). This will develop acidity at the higher temperatures and during early pressing

Thermophilic (Helveticus)  - LH 100 (2 pinch – 1/12 tsp). Enhances proteolysis (protein breakdown) during aging to help create that fabulous Alpine texture.

Propionic shermanii (1 pinch – 1/24 tsp). Personal preference. This is one of the “tricks” to a good Gruyere.

Ripen for 30 min. at 90F

Rennet: 1/2 tsp. of single strength calf rennet. Adjust as necessary to achieve flocculation at 10-15 minutes. Floc multiplier is 3. So let it sit for 30 to 45 minutes or until a clean break is achieved.

Cut: Initially cut curd into 1 inch cubes, rest for 3 minutes, then cut to 1/4 inch. Let heal for 10 minutes.

NOTE – The small curd is typical of the thermophylic long aged Alpine cheeses as well as the Parma style cheeses of Italy. This encourages whey release and a drier curd.

Cook: Heat curds slowly to 128F over 40 minutes.

Prepress: Press under whey or “In The Pot” for 30 minutes with 20 pounds for better curd consolidation. Flip and repeat.

Pressing: Move cheese to regular press and gradually increase weight to 2-3 psi. Continue pressing overnight. As the acidity continues to develop, the curd can aggressively stick to the cheesecloth. To avoid this, soak the cheesecloth in acidified whey (or vinegar) with a little calcium cloride added. Resoak after each flip.

Salting: Remove from press, but keep cheese in the hoop. Allow unweighted cheese to cool and rest for 24 hours. Remove from hoop and brine for 6-8 hrs.

Aging: 80% RH at 52-54F. This is traditionaly a washed rind cheese. In about 7-10 days surface molds will start to develop. This needs to be wiped down with a saturated brine at 3-6 day intervals to start. Traditionaly the surface of large Beauforts is sprinkled with salt and allowed to develop its own brine. This is rubbed into the surface the following day, the cheese is turned, and the cycle repeated. A red rind will form in time and will require less frequent treatments.

Age for 6 -18 months depending on the flavor desired.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on April 01, 2010, 10:45:12 PM
Brilliant recipe, Sailor. I'll try to make one your way vs my regular make and see how it turns out. A lot of similarities between our two styles.

My notes on this are to cook hot, but to use little rennet, with a 3x multiplier. Traditional French recipe is to use European calf rennet, which is 1:10,000 strength, at 7-10 ml per 100 lbs milk. This gives you a longer floc time of 15-25 mins, and then a 3x multiplier gives 45-60 mins rest before cutting.

My aging notes say 85-88 RH, so a little higher than yours.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on April 01, 2010, 11:57:21 PM
I have just one obscure Beaufort recipe that I have modified to my style & taste. So I have been looking for another traditional recipe for comparison. Does your recipe use a Meso/Thermo mix?

I use pH targets .1 less than Gruyere because of the starter mix. I don't know about yours, but this cheese really cranks up the acid production about 2-3 hours into pressing. It is the most aggressive cheese that I have made and will stick like crazy to cheesecloth or a Kadova mold if you don't manage things properly.

Actually, my notes call for a RH of at LEAST 80%.

A couple of sources that I have read recently suggest that a longer floc time produces a firmer and more stable curd. Just from observation, I have to agree. I usually shoot for around 10 minutes to floc, but the curd seems much stronger if I use just a "little" less rennet and extend the set time. This has been particularly evident with the Holstein milk that I have been using lately.

I actually saw another reference to 25-30 minutes floc times for Beaufort. What's your take on longer floc times? Does the theoretical chemistry actually support a stronger curd set? Is there a practical reason to use short floc times for some cheeses and longer times for others? My initial thought is that an extended floc/curd set time is going to allow more acid to develop. In some cases that could really change the timing for pH targets. It might be necessary to cook faster before too much acid develops. Maybe that's what you meant by cooking hot?

Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on July 14, 2010, 06:00:16 PM
Keep meaning to answer this, finally have a few mins. Traditional Beaufort is very similar to emmenthaler, except it uses less propionic, doesn't have a warm aging for the eyes, and has more salt and different culture. Also the ST strains seem to differ. Emmenthaler will drop pH pretty quickly in 6 hours, and beaufort will still be at 6 or so after 6 hours, then drop quickly.

My target ph for the culture is to hit 5.9 after 6 hours, and then the acidity should spike and after 8 hours be at 5.3-5.4, and ready for brining. So similar to yours, that little bit amount of ST kicks in later on in the make. The culture should be predominantly LH, with various naturally occurring strains of mesophilic. I like to add a little FD (.1-.2% bulk starter equivalent), ripen that in the milk for an hour along with the rest of the culture at 90F, and then kill it off by heating. I'm looking for the complex mix of proteases and peptidases from the cocci with that approach, and there's just enough there after heating the milk to add a little character. Sort of like adding flavoring. For acidification, the ST does most of the work. And the lactobacilli are there and keep multiplying in the aging room, then autolysing as aging progresses.

The longer floc times, I completely agree with you. Seems that by letting the milk sit undisturbed longer, the curd is better. It's not the same thing to reduce total set time and use more rennet. Might be a function of acidity because as the acidity develops, rennet is more effective. Except, in Beaufort, that acidity is like 6.3-6.4 by the time it's drained, so I'm just not sure acidity plays a big part.

Beaufort is cooked faster than other similar cheeses, from 90 all the way to 127 or so in a little more than half an hour, then cooked until the curds are the right consistency
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on August 05, 2010, 02:03:14 AM
Trying to fine-tune my timing and pH points....

Sailor, I used your Beaufort recipe and have had the cheese under the press for 4 hours @ ~2psi. I decided to unwrap, flip, resoak the cloth, and press overnight (7 hours) @ 3.5psi. This is the second cheese using my calf rennet. I had been using the mucor miehei for all my previous makes.

I made a Gouda using 1/8tsp dry calf rennet and it took 22 min to floc. This time I used 1/4 tsp and it came in just under 15 min. Much better.

The temp was supposed to be brought up to 128F in 40 min. It took me 60 min. I've had troubles with my Extech PH100 from the get-go and today it told me "Renew". You have got to be kidding me! I haven't had it that long or used it that much. I will call them tomorrow.

I used it anyway after calibrating it. Not sure that the calibration was accurate if it's flashing "Renew", but I pressed on. When I was 20 min in to the cooking/stirring, my reading was 6.54 @ 86F. After the cooking, I loaded the curds into the mold. Per your direction, I pressed under warm whey with 10 lbs for 20 min. (Yeah, I modified that). Then I rewrapped , soaking the cloth with whey/vinegar/CACL2, and pressed under whey for another 30 min using 25 lbs. When I'd finished that, I rewrapped, soaked the cloth, flipped, and pressed with my press @ just under 2psi. I tested the whey coming out at this point and it read 4.83 @ 83.3F. Seems a tad low. At some point I'm going to get this right.

Have I created yet another acidic, crumbly cheese? I hope not. I used likesspace (Dave's) Gouda recipe and ripened for about 5 min. This Beaufort wanted 30 min, so I obliged. Is that too much ripening time given the culture mix?

By the way, the cloth really does stick to the cheese. I can't imagine what it would be like if I hadn't been soaking the cloth in the whey/vinegar/CACL2 broth.

One more thing: linuxboy, you say the LH should be the dominant culture yet this recipe by Sailor makes the meso the big player. Have you posted your Beaufort recipe on the forum anywhere?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on August 05, 2010, 02:14:37 AM
When I'd finished that, I rewrapped, soaked the cloth, flipped, and pressed with my press @ just under 2psi. I tested the whey coming out at this point and it read 4.83 @ 83.3F. Seems a tad low. At some point I'm going to get this right.

Are you measuring the whey or the residual vinegar?
Quote
Have I created yet another acidic, crumbly cheese? I hope not. I used likesspace (Dave's) Gouda recipe and ripened for about 5 min.

No, you drained way too high for that.

Quote
This Beaufort wanted 30 min, so I obliged. Is that too much ripening time given the culture mix?

No, it's fine.
Quote
By the way, the cloth really does stick to the cheese. I can't imagine what it would be like if I hadn't been soaking the cloth in the whey/vinegar/CACL2 broth.

One more thing: linuxboy, you say the LH should be the dominant culture yet this recipe by Sailor makes the meso the big player. Have you posted your Beaufort recipe on the forum anywhere?

TA is the main acidifier here during cooking and after. Meso is for symbiosis and for more complex flavors. With raw milk, you wouldn't need the meso. The meso also helps with the initial pH drop.

The LH is the dominant culture, but I didn't exactly say when. What I meant is that after aging if you look, the majority of bacteria are LH. That's because LH multiplies after the cheese is in the cave.

So during the make, TA acidifies. The meso cocci add some flavor during affinage, and LH acts are the main agent that leads to flavor and paste formation. No time to post recipe right now; so much stuff is in my notes or my head, but I'm trying to go through it all. It's pretty similar to sailor's.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on August 06, 2010, 11:34:56 PM
In this case, dominant doesn't mean quantity. Both cultures are active early on and usually facilitate a faster initial pH drop. I feel that the Meso is the dominant player in the beginning, although both are working hard. However, when you heat to 128F you kill off or deactivate many of the Meso bacteria. Now the Thermo is clearly dominant and continues the acidification thru pressing and brining. Meanwhile three things happen with the Meso culture. First, there is a well documented symbiotic relationship with the Thermo that enhances the whole make process. Second - some do survive and continue doing their thing. Third, the dead ones become part of the proteolytic process much earlier than normal in the affinage process. They release enzymes and provide a complex mix of flavors to the finished cheese. This early die off and proteolysis means that the cheese will also mature faster than a pure Meso cheese. Ironically, as LB pointed out, raw milk contains natural meso bacteria anyway and is one of many reasons that raw usually produces more complex and flavorful cheese.

Some award winning Cheddars for example are quietly being made by taking advantage of the meso/thermo symbiosis to produce more complex flavors with a much shorter affinage. Imagine getting the texture and flavor of a two year old cheddar within 8 or 9 months. Makes for better cheese and a better bottom line. That's probably why you don't see any recipes or many articles talking about this. The exact culture mixes and techniques are being carefully guarded. But I'm sure LB knows...... Ta Da........ (what a segueway)......
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on August 07, 2010, 12:22:52 AM
In this case, dominant doesn't mean quantity. Both cultures are active early on and usually facilitate a faster initial pH drop. I feel that the Meso is the dominant player in the beginning, although both are working hard. However, when you heat to 128F you kill off or deactivate many of the Meso bacteria. Now the Thermo is clearly dominant and continues the acidification thru pressing and brining. Meanwhile three things happen with the Meso culture. First, there is a well documented symbiotic relationship with the Thermo that enhances the whole make process. Second - some do survive and continue doing their thing. Third, the dead ones become part of the proteolytic process much earlier than normal in the affinage process. They release enzymes and provide a complex mix of flavors to the finished cheese. This early die off and proteolysis means that the cheese will also mature faster than a pure Meso cheese. Ironically, as LB pointed out, raw milk contains natural meso bacteria anyway and is one of many reasons that raw usually produces more complex and flavorful cheese.



It's so cool how raw milk works. For making meso cheese, there are natural non-starter lactobacilli that contribute a lot of flavor. Like try making a tomme from pasteurized and raw milk. All the additional enzymes aside, the natural lactobacilli will make it more complex. Similar for thermo cheese, only it's just like you said, the meso are cooked, most die, and add complexity.
Quote
Some award winning Cheddars for example are quietly being made by taking advantage of the meso/thermo symbiosis to produce more complex flavors with a much shorter affinage. Imagine getting the texture and flavor of a two year old cheddar within 8 or 9 months. Makes for better cheese and a better bottom line. That's probably why you don't see any recipes or many articles talking about this. The exact culture mixes and techniques are being carefully guarded. But I'm sure LB knows...... Ta Da........ (what a segueway)......

Almost all pasteurized cheddars that win prizes are manipulated. Those that aren't are a fluke or result from bribes. :) There's just no way to get complex flavor with pasteurized milk in cheddar. Maybe after a few years... It'll otherwise taste like industrial cheese. Good and tasty but not remarkable. The manipulations take all sorts of shape, most are documented, just not the exact process or quantities. You have lactic acid used as preripening agent, propionic, molds, flavor extracts, enzyme extracts, higher temp (commercial cheddar is aged at 8C), thermo adjuncts, etc are all used to manipulate flavor.

And yep, most of the tricks for commercial cheese are guarded. I understand why, but don't quite fathom it because any good researcher can reverse engineer the methods and strains. Most commonly, propionic strains or LH strains are used as easy adjuncts for flavor boosts.

I am working on a detailed howto for creating better fresh cheddar cheese curds that don't have that bland flavor most have. That's one secret everyone seems to guard, of those who are using it. I engineered it separately on my own, so there's no NDA issue.

edit: here's the howto: http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80 (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80)
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on August 07, 2010, 08:52:44 AM
linuxboy & Sailor - Excellent analysis & dialogue. I feel better now knowing a little more about this cheese and flavor in general. Seems like another epiphany for me...realizing the role different cultures play in creating the final flavor profile.

linuxboy - I think you're right; I no doubt was measuring runoff from the vinegar soak. Duh!  ::)

I talked to Mike at Extech and he got me back on track with my meter. The "renew" went away. Whew!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on August 07, 2010, 09:29:00 AM
Cheesemaking for me is all about understanding and manipulating the interactions between the bacteria and the steps in the process. I like to look at new recipes and understand why things are being done a certain way and how those steps effect the outcome of the finished cheese. In fact, I find it impossible to blindly follow a recipe without understand process. Understanding leads to an ability to consciously manipulate the outcome so the cheese is your unique creation.

For example, you took 60 minutes to hit target temperature instead of 30. Is that a big deal? Well.... Depends on what you're after. The cheese will be fine, however, it will not really be a Beaufort. A fast, hot cooking time seals the curds quicker which retains moisture instead of expelling whey. A longer time allows more whey to escape before the curd "rind" is sealed. So your cheese will not be as moist as it should be. Not necessarily bad. It may be better and it is your unique creation.

It's all about the little things. By the way, I assume you put a little Propionic into the starter mix. ;)
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on August 07, 2010, 07:33:18 PM
Cheesemaking for me is all about understanding and manipulating the interactions between the bacteria and the steps in the process. I like to look at new recipes and understand why things are being done a certain way and how those steps effect the outcome of the finished cheese. In fact, I find it impossible to blindly follow a recipe without understand process. Understanding leads to an ability to consciously manipulate the outcome so the cheese is your unique creation.

For example, you took 60 minutes to hit target temperature instead of 30. Is that a big deal? Well.... Depends on what you're after. The cheese will be fine, however, it will not really be a Beaufort. A fast, hot cooking time seals the curds quicker which retains moisture instead of expelling whey. A longer time allows more whey to escape before the curd "rind" is sealed. So your cheese will not be as moist as it should be. Not necessarily bad. It may be better and it is your unique creation.

It's all about the little things. By the way, I assume you put a little Propionic into the starter mix. ;)
You're right. I'll probably have something closer to an Emmental. Drier but, hopefully, still tasty down the road. For some reason I had a difficult time reaching the target temp point on-time. I need more practice, I guess.

I am trying to understand what's going on "behind the curtain" when I'm making cheese and not just blindly following a recipe like a robot. I try to post pictures here to log my mistakes and successes and to have someone inform me when one of my successes "shouldn't really be doing that or look like that."

And yes, I did add some Propionic. Hard to gauge 1/24 tsp though. I've got the pinch, dash, and smidgen spoons from The Cheesemaker. It was a guesstimate.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on August 07, 2010, 08:35:56 PM
Boof, it'll only be an emmenthaler if you have a warm room aging period. These cheeses are very very forgiving. If you miss the salt and moisture target, they'll still taste good. These do need minimum of 8 months to age, especially if the moisture content is less than expected.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on August 11, 2010, 02:01:33 AM
Alright, that works for me. A bit drier Beaufort than per the style, but hopefully still quite edible. And yes, this one was slated for an extended aging period.

I am somewhat anxious of how much better this cheese could have been had I been more aggressive with the heating...
A fast, hot cooking time seals the curds quicker which retains moisture instead of expelling whey. A longer time allows more whey to escape before the curd "rind" is sealed. So your cheese will not be as moist as it should be.
...and somewhere down the road I will be redoing this with an eye towards pulling in these details.

Which contributes more of the authentic "alpine/Swiss" taste: Propionic shermanii or the LH?

-Boofer-

Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on August 11, 2010, 10:43:40 AM
both. :)

LH has sweeter and nutty notes and propionic ranges all over the place from sweet to sharp because it produces so many compounds.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on September 06, 2010, 02:22:36 AM
My rind seemed to be pretty tight so I went ahead and sealed it yesterday. Now I wait until this time next year. Fingers crossed.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 20, 2010, 08:44:24 AM
Sailor, Just want to thank you for the recipe, thoughts and technique. It has been a while since I have visited the forum or even made cheese for that matter but I have learned a lot from reading the dialogue in this thread. Wondering if you have had the chance to cut this cheese yet or is it still in the aging stage?

I would like to try and get a few cheeses made this fall before the animals come off pasture and would like to give your Beaufort a go

Again thanks

Reg
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 20, 2010, 10:29:35 AM
Beaufort is one of my favorite cheeses and very well received by the English crowd in town.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: FarmerJD on October 20, 2010, 01:56:16 PM
Reg, good to have you back. Read alot of your old posts.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 21, 2010, 08:13:59 AM
Sailor, yes I bet Beaufort is VERY well recieved. I'm a big fan of the Alpine types of cheese both for eating and cooking with, they are very smooth in just about any sauce.

Farmer, it is good to get back and read some of the posts, it has been a long time since I have been here. Like most others time is very limited but hopefully that will change as I'm going into semi retirement, well hopefully

Been looking for a post by Tea so I can say hello to her and to John. Man this forum has sure changed over the past few years
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on October 21, 2010, 10:01:30 AM
Good to have you back, reg. I'd love to follow your progress with your Beaufort.

As we move more into the cooler months, I want to do some alpines, including my Beaufort retry.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 22, 2010, 07:59:13 AM
Question that maybe Sailor or linuxboy can answer and I'm not sure this will work or not but it has been on my mind for a few years now. If I were to caramelize a quart or two of either cream or milk and add that into my batch do you think that may throw off the entire process ?

We do know that UP milk is not good for cheese making but what do you think the effect would be by adding a small portion of cooked product to the overall make

Reg
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 22, 2010, 08:37:13 AM
My first impressions is that the high temperatures would destroy the calcium and make it unfit for cheesemaking, just like ultrapasteurizing. That may in part depend on the source of your cream and the kind of milk that you are using. Store bought is generally UHT anyway. That might also depend on the degree of caramelization. Experimentation is good. Give it a go and let us know what happens. You won't have to wait until the cheese ages because you will see the effects during curd set. I would definitely use CaCl2. Interesting idea.

Not sure what your intent is, but an alternative would be to add the caramelized cream after you cut the curds. The cream wouldn't be integrated into the calcium matrix, but the caramelized particles will stay with the curd mass and won't be drained or pressed out. So, it would still pick up the flavor.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 22, 2010, 10:23:46 AM
Thanks for a very quick reply Sailor. This is an idea that I have been contemplating for quite a while, any and all imput is appreciated thats for sure. You may have hit the nail on the head with the idea of adding the caramelized cream after the set and before pressing, yes this makes sense to me now.

I have played with the idea of caramelized cream before with the additions of the herbs that grow naturally in the Alps regions (Switzerland-France-Italy) to try and get some of the original flavours from the different grasses and herbs that grow wild there. Lavender in small amounts was a good fit.

Not sure I will get to this until everything is clear in my very clouded mind

Reg
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 22, 2010, 10:29:22 AM
If I were to caramelize a quart or two of either cream or milk and add that into my batch do you think that may throw off the entire process ?

We do know that UP milk is not good for cheese making but what do you think the effect would be by adding a small portion of cooked product to the overall make

Your curds will not set if you add too much. I have tried this for a gouda concept I had when I wanted accelerated flavor development. What does work is if you carmelize pure lactose and add that. Carmelizing glucose and fructose doesn't work as well because you invite yeast contamination with that approach. Adding carmelized milk is about the same as adding cream. When you add cream, it doesn't make curd stronger, but weaker. And as Sailor and I both have discussed in some previous threads, the PF ratio is very important if you want to target a cheese style. What happens with the carmelized milk is that the proteins are all wacky (denatured), so they will not bond and will not help form a gel. Rather, they will be kind of like fat particles, just suspended in place by the casein matrix. And if you have too many, the gel matrix cannot hold. And then mere anarchy will be loosed upon the world :)

Sailor's idea is good, but IMHO if you're really just flavoring the cheese with caramel, then add straight caramel.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 22, 2010, 11:14:23 AM
linuxboy, your words of wisdom also make a lot of sense and I can clearly see that there will be a binding problem after the milk protein has been denatured, yes would not work because of the amount required to do what I was intending it to do. Another strategy is in order, no question

caramelized milk is totally different in taste and texture than that of streight caramel (sugar and water cooked). I wanted to stay strictly dairy here and did like the flavour profile that the caramelized cream and lavender brought to the party. Looking at photos of those big copper caldrons and wood fired heat may have warped my mind but that is what I seen when first looking at the process. This will be a 'work in process' for sure

Reg
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on October 22, 2010, 03:00:50 PM
You could do it, reg, in moderation. I did okay with gouda, PF 1.1 and then adjusted with about 6 ounces carmelized milk per gallon. The curds set, the flavor was interesting, something I haven't done since because I had no time.

I see your point on the carmelized lactose vs milk.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: reg on October 23, 2010, 09:14:16 AM
That is good news linuxboy, 6oz per gallon may be enough for the flavour I'm thinking about. Don't want to go to far, just have enough to flavour without taking away from the original Alpine style cheese.

Time ??? yes I hear you

Thanks for all the help

Reg
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 18, 2011, 09:53:53 AM
Just a query in terms of main cultures; I've MM100, and Thermo C, as well as MA4001.  Would MA4001, ThermoC be a couple of good choices here, as well? 



Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 18, 2011, 12:21:00 PM
It seems the MA001 is discontinued; the only difference, as I can see it, between the MM100 and MA19 is the diacetylis in the former (however, not sure of the ratio differences).  Thermo C contains both S. thermophilus, and L. helveticus.  It lacks LH100's L. lactis.

Can someone discuss substitutions, here?  Would one expect more "buttery" notes than desired in a Beaufort, if using MM100, and what the lack of L. lactis would mean, if using Thermo C instead of LH?  Basically, among 4001, Thermo C, and MM100, curious on what using some combination of these would mean. 

Also, Pav, you like to use some FD, allow to ripen for an hour, then heat.  Do you mean, you ripen 1 hour, get your normal ΔpH, rennet, floc, etc., then heat?

Finally, I note Sailor you indicate "AT LEAST 80%RH."  I've the one cave, that rests 88-90%.  Doable, yes?
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 18, 2011, 02:44:18 PM
Quote
Would one expect more "buttery" notes than desired in a Beaufort, if using MM100, and what the lack of L. lactis would mean, if using Thermo C instead of LH?  Basically, among 4001, Thermo C, and MM100, curious on what using some combination of these would mean. 

I'm not even sure where to begin. The biochemistry of ripening is really complex, it's somewhat hard to generalize.

Buttery notes have to do with diacetyl, which thermos generally do not produce. Also, the fat content, fat type, and amount of lipase in the milk. MM100 would not give you more butter notes. L lactis is a synergistic helper acidifier, it tends to add a well-roundedness without excess proteolysis.

Quote
Do you mean, you ripen 1 hour, get your normal ΔpH, rennet, floc, etc., then heat?
I use it to replicate evening milk that has been preripened. There's a trend to use L Lactis for beaufort, emmenthaler, and similar cheese, to ripen the evening milk a little. I prefer FD. I don't watch the pH change at all with FD, it's strictly a time-based addition. I don't use it for acidity in beaufort. I use ST for acidity and to a degree, LH.

Yes, you're fine at that RH. If you read more in the thread, Sailor and I discuss the RH levels and how 80% is the absolute lowest, preferably 90%
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 18, 2011, 03:09:40 PM
It is the diacetylactis/D culture in the MM100, that is absent in the MA19, that brought me to wonder if the MM100 might lend a buttery note, absent from the MA19.  Basically, wondering whether the MM100 was suitable as a base culture over the MA19. 

Thanks on the L. lactis/FD info, interesting. 
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on February 18, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
Yes, it is. Works fine. You actually don't want predominantly LH for this cheese, the proteolysis will be all wrong. You want lactococcus blend, ST, and a little LH and propionic. Sailor's mix for this is pretty classic, and you can have other blends to achieve a similar effect. Maybe what I should do for this thread, if you're really interested, and write up the reasoning for each culture choice, so that you can use substitutions if you want. Maybe next week, in a meeting right now (bad me)
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 18, 2011, 03:55:42 PM
Pav, I think I'm just being cheap, and that's never good reasoning, at least not without also asking, "yes, but will it work as well?"

In other words, I was thinking I got my meso from the MM100, thought I might get some diacetyl production from the included diacetylactis, and my ST (and LH) from the Thermo C, which I have. 

A long-winded way of asking if I could make a decent Beaufort with MM100 and Thermo C, instead of MA011, TA061, and LH100, none of which I have.  It seems the LH might suffice in the Thermo C, and, from your message, I understand the diacetylactis component (and consequent citrate fermentation) seems negligible in the MM100; it's the pre-ripening,  with FD or MD89 (I see that's pure L. diacetylactis) that would add the buttery "touch." 

Curiously, and not to add further confusion, I see LM57 is also used for "buttery notes."  I know you've talked of leuconostoc elsewhere, so will have to dig that info up.  And read, and re-read, my Fox. ;)

Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on February 18, 2011, 10:40:49 PM
A few quick notes:

Add a little LM-57 to MM-100 and you get Flora Danica or Aromatic B. I have been using Aroma B instead of MA-11 for quite some time and I like the flavor much better.

LM-57 = Leuc m. cremoris. The Leuconostoc make long chains, so in addition to the diacetyl flavor (buttery notes), it acts as a thickener. It also produces some gas, so there is some small eye formation. This is true for Beaufort or Gruyere.

LH100 is a low acidifying thermo culture that includes Lactobacillus lactis. Note - this is NOT Lactococcus. Because of the slow acidification properties, you generally use a TA61 (Thermo Acidifying) culture and/or a Meso acidifier in combination with LH100. Lactobacilli are considered maturation bacteria and enhance flavor & texture. So you would use LH100 and TA61 when you want a classic Swiss or Alpine flavor and texture. Thermo C is a really basic culture used primarily for Italian types. Not a good choice for Beaufort or other Alpines.

Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 18, 2011, 11:05:09 PM
Thanks, Sailor, the distinction/reminder of LH as lactobacillus and as a maturation acidifier does help my understanding quite a bit.  Couple more questions.

You indicate using a meso and/or thermo acidifiers in conjunction with the LH.  I'm getting a loose understanding of why one, other or both would be useful - but don't know enough, and more, enough about this style, to lock it in.  Can you clarify a bit on alternatives - using a meso, thermo or both?  Specifically, givcn a curd cooking temp & stirring protocol, can you clarify some reasons why one would want one, the other, or some proportional blend? (e.g., say, you use only meso, get your acidification at 88, then kill it off by bringing up to 140; how would this differ from using only thermo, resting at the optimal thermo range, and then proceeding on to cooking range?).  I'm tired, and may be missing the obvious here, sorry if so.

Secondly, does either seem reasonable:  1/8 tsp MM100, 1/32 LM57, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii; or 1/8 Aromatic B, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii?

Edit:  Please ignore paragraph 1.  I see the posts by both LB and Sailor on page 1, explaining the reasoning behind the meso/thermo mix.  Thank you both - a brilliant thread.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on February 19, 2011, 01:28:36 AM
Secondly, does either seem reasonable:  1/8 tsp MM100, 1/32 LM57, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii; or 1/8 Aromatic B, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii?
My second Beaufort had:
It smells great! Waiting 'til Halloween.

What damage have I done with a little extra LH? I intended 1/12 tsp.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 19, 2011, 07:07:54 AM
Secondly, does either seem reasonable:  1/8 tsp MM100, 1/32 LM57, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii; or 1/8 Aromatic B, 1/16 LH, 1/16 ST, 1/32 P. shermanii?
My second Beaufort had:
  • 1/8 tsp Aromatic B
  • 1/16 tsp Thermo TA
  • 3/16 tsp LH (a slight mismeasurement  ::) )
  • 1/16 tsp Propioni
It smells great! Waiting 'til Halloween.

What damage have I done with a little extra LH? I intended 1/12 tsp.

-Boofer-

Thanks, Boofer.  I love Beaufort, and the only reason I've held off is because I'm so new to cheesemaking in general, so was concentrating on the tommes; but this is too good to avoid.   

Further discussions with Pav have led me to look more closely at Alpine styles in general, and the symbiotic and proteolytic qualities of the thermophilic species' more closely.  Based on our exchange, doing some thoughts on incorporating some L. delbrueckii, along with the LH.  He indicates this is commonly found in emmenthaler (and I read some research along this way, after our discussion).  Waiting for further discussion to see of the role of delbrueckii, if any, as an interesting component in Beaufort.  Sailor - you've any thoughts?
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 23, 2011, 05:19:56 PM
(Sailor or Pav, if you happen to see this).

Finished the make just a bit ago and shortly into my main press.  A few questions. 

Sailor, you mention soaking the cheesecloth in pH-balanced whey.  As is my custom, I used cheesecloth only for the first few rounds of flipping, which in this case constitutes 2 hours and a graduated psi from .5-3PSI.  It occurs to me the acidification curve you and Pav discuss may mean I might have an issue over the next several hours, as the cheese acidifies, if using just a straight hoop and follower (although I must say, unless I've spaced, I can't see that substantial a difference in pH drop between the tommes, and this cheese....this one went into the press at 6.56, pretty close to like my tommes). 

Secondly, for the tommes, I was maintaining a 21-22% brine.  This make represents the first brine with full-strength whey (previously, it was runoff from washed curds), so I'm making a fresh brine (didn't really want to use the old brine, as it hasn't been touched since my last tomme make of 2/11).  Any reason why one couldn't just use a saturated brine, for these beauforts?

Thirdly, from reading the thread, my understanding is that the propionic eye formation is inhibited in part due to the lack of a warming period, and the relatively higher salt concentration, when compared to, e.g., emmenthaler. 

I haven't weighed it yet, but estimate I will get about 4 1/2 lbs out of this make.  Given that, I was a bit puzzled by the 6-8 hours brine period you mention, Sailor - I would have thought this cheese could use a more substantial salt dosing, given the above, and previously I was doing 3 1/2 hours or so per pound of tomme.  Is this due to the extended aging, and is this common for all cheeses aged this long? 

Finally, Sailor, I note you mention to cool the cheese down in the hoop for 24 hours, prior to placing in the brine.  Would cooling in my normal cave condition - 52-55F, 89-92%RH - be appropriate for this pre-brine period? 

Many thanks.  So far, very happy with the results - and Boofer, the press is performing like a champ!
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on February 23, 2011, 08:23:45 PM
Arn - Cheesecloth sticking is most problematic with themo cheeses about 2-4 hours into pressing as the TA kicks in and the pH drops.

A pH of 6.56 at hooping is WAY off target. You should have that or lower at renneting. So something is wrong with either your procedures or your pH meter. Perhaps that's a typo???

Propionic is very salt sensitive.  I cool at room temp. Brining for 6-8 hours depends on the size of your wheel. I use a saturated brine at 3 hours a pound.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 23, 2011, 09:01:10 PM
Thanks, Sailor.  First of all, no, I don't have much faith in the meter.  Secondly, the milk came in at 6.72, and after an hour of ripening, I was at 6.60. 

Based on the 1.2 point drop (and following on the heels of some comments by Pav and yourself in this thread, on meso metabolism and lysis), I added rennet at 6.60. 

Floc time was 20 minutes (shot for a longer floc, so went towards the low end of 7-10 ml/100lbs measure, using 3.2ml/5 gallons). 

I don't know why it is, but with every make so far, even with primer culture, aside from the initial drop from ripening culture, I won't see much change in readings - until a precipitous crash, not long into the main press, which is almost assuredly wrong.  So, I don't know. 

After 2 hours post-culture addition (1 hour ripening, 1 hour renneting), my meter had gone from 6.72 to 6.56.  I took no further measurements after cutting, as I've had such lousy luck in the past getting what seems like a reasonable reading.

I've got some issues with cutting and stirring, breaking up too much of the "orderly" cubes into irregular grains - something I've raised with Pav, separately.  That said, the wheel is the smoothest knit I've yet had (in no small measure, I'm sure, from the pre-press under warm-warm/hot whey, and the higher psi).  I will take one more reading at the end of 8 hours; this time, I just decided to let it go to time, as opposed to depending on this - likely very flawed - meter. 

Thanks on all the info, otherwise, as well.  Very helpful.

Paul
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 23, 2011, 10:54:30 PM
Further to the above:  I decided to balance the whey brine tonight.  It has been cooling downstairs, in the cellar, and is currently at 76F.  I 2-point calibrated the pH meter, rinsed with d.i...and after 5 hours cooling down from make temp to 76F, the whey is at a magical 3.92 pH. 

While I understand the value of going on sensory learning, the only way I know to be able to replicate to any degree of surety is to know where I am, and what I can expect, at any one of several stages, with trustworthy equipment. 

I've had it with this meter; I'm calling Extech tomorrow.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on February 24, 2011, 09:02:20 AM
I've had it with this meter; I'm calling Extech tomorrow.
I feel your pain.
I've gradually moved in the direction iratherfly suggested...get in touch with the milk-curds-cheese and develop a feel for what it's doing and what you're doing. I know you're doing that. I'm trying my best to do that and, in limited fashion, am having some success, I feel. It's tough, this learning thing.  ;)

the whey is at a magical 3.92 pH. 
Wow, that beats my lowest! I guess you're the winner.  :o

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 24, 2011, 09:16:58 AM
I've had it with this meter; I'm calling Extech tomorrow.
I feel your pain.
I've gradually moved in the direction iratherfly suggested...get in touch with the milk-curds-cheese and develop a feel for what it's doing and what you're doing. I know you're doing that. I'm trying my best to do that and, in limited fashion, am having some success, I feel. It's tough, this learning thing.  ;)

the whey is at a magical 3.92 pH. 
Wow, that beats my lowest! I guess you're the winner.  :o

-Boofer-

Lol - well, if the magically aggressive whey drop was all, I'd be....more rested today.  This was a learning curve beaufort, to be sure.  Beside the pH issues, woke up at 1:30 a.m. (8 hours of pressing ended 1:40 a.m.) to remove from the press - and discovered that my assembly of 3 weights - a 5,  2 1/2 and 1 1/2 - had decided to get cozy with the pulley rope, and held it tightly between them. 

Being with me through the construction, and knowing my level of carpentry skills, I believe the weights were afraid they'd die an ignoble death, all alone, in the middle of the night.  So they clung tightly to the rope. 

When I went to release the hoop, I noticed...unhinged the weight stack and felt the sinking feeling of creaking, indicating the wheel could have been pressed at its proper psi.  At 8 hours, disgusted as I was with the pH meter,*** I felt obliged to simply go by time on the press, and hope for the best.  The wheel is sitting clothbound in the hoop at room temp, until tonight. (Sailor, when you indicate to leave in hoop, I hope that meant just remove it from the press, leave it intact cheesecloth and all, and allow to rest and cool as is).

By the way, I've seen some variations on this  - apparently, among the alpines, beaufort is usually brined, but it's not unheard of for the wheel to get a salt rub, over a brine; and though many just use saturated brine for wash, some do use a high-salt b. linens wash (6-10% salt; one I know of, uses a standard 3% b. linens wash daily for about a month). 

So, toying with foregoing altogether a brine for this one, as an experiment, and then doing the b. linens wash.  Any thoughts, anyone?

Live and learn.  4th wheel down.  Tommes are progressing, though slowly.  Some helpful suggestions by Pav, and I am seeing the first signs of b. linens and other growth on all 3 tommes, so I've my hopes up.  I say that gingerly.

Paul

***I really don't even know whether to trust the brine I made up - I adjusted with baking soda, to 5.2, but I'm almost certain that's now too high, as I'm almost certain the "3.92" was way off; bad feeling I'm going to have to toss this beautiful whey-brine, and just make up a water one with standard additions, without measurement.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: george (MaryJ) on February 24, 2011, 09:57:07 AM
Quote
I say that gingerly.

Perhaps your next trick should be a ginger Stilton, a la Sailor?

*runs*
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 24, 2011, 01:50:47 PM
Well, gave it a go.  Thanks, Pav, for your additional help.  Wheel came in just past my predicted amount, 4 lbs., 10.8 oz.  Cheesecloth came off OK - but noticed something that seemed a bit weird (at least, to me, as I've never seen this).  Smooth wheel, no openings - but what looked like a few fine, definitely red streaks, here and there - like microsurgical-thin, filamentous, embedded in the rind?  Any thoughts? (Come hell or high water, I'm aging this 8-12 months, so plan to kill off whatever foul beastie may have wanted to curse this first, rather difficult alpine-style learning curve). 

As a final cap on this meter, going on some of Pav's suggestions, just tasted the whey brine for sourness.  Slightly so, I added some vinegar.  The brine prior to the vinegar addition measured 5.32.  After the vinegar addition, 5.40.  So yep, a fine instrument, couldn't be happier at this point.

Edit:  If I'm been unhappy with this meter, I want to give credit to the company for standing by its customers - like many have said, if they've had problems with the meter, like them. I have nothing but good things to say about the customer service and company in its attitude this way. 

I contacted them, explained the situation, gave them the history, and they are shipping me a brand new instrument - don't even have to return the old one.  This means a good deal to me, in my view of dealing with companies.  Let's hope second time's the charm.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on February 25, 2011, 08:34:36 AM
Being with me through the construction, and knowing my level of carpentry skills, I believe the weights were afraid they'd die an ignoble death, all alone, in the middle of the night.  So they clung tightly to the rope. 
LOL.  Sorry to hear about the clingy weights. I'm sure the cheese will turn out just fine in the end.

I really want to hear how you do with the replacement meter. I too have been considering calling ExTech again to try to correct what I perceive as an instrument problem not a technique problem.

What are those red streaks you mentioned? Are they part of the cheesecloth threads? I have, on occasion, found little threads from the muslin embedded in the surface of the cheese. When I find them, normally early in the process shortly after the press, I tease them out with a clean toothpick.

How much milk did you use to get a 4 lb 10.8 oz wheel? 5 gallons?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on February 25, 2011, 08:48:17 AM
Learnng curve, Boof. It was almost funny, this weight "sandwich", in reminding me to pay attention to everything.  I still think I got at least 2psi, based on nothing more than a hunch, and comparison with how much was on before (how much travel).  Started  thread and posted a pic, so I'm still pretty happy - the smoothest knit I've yet gotten. 

The coloration definitely seems from the cheescloth, but they aren't physical threads.  Pav's thought is that they're perhaps just coloration from the cloth being picked up by the fat in the cheese; indicated coloration among bacilli, etc., would be impossible this early in the game, so in other words I was being paranoid, and that's comforting.  Sort of.  I'll take daft over listeria, any day.

Used 5 gallons for this yield, so 9.2% or thereabouts.   Very interesting process, and seeing it like this, is heartening.  I'm still debating doing a saturated brine only, or a b. linens wash, with an elevated salinity (I've seen this done, in some practices).  I've got some time.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 05, 2011, 01:39:57 PM
A question about early acidification, during the low temp ripening.  In the middle of my second beaufort.  Cultures used were 1/8 tsp Meso Aromatic B, 1/16 (rounded) ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 propionic. 

Assuming my (new) meter is working decently, milk came in at 6.71, and after 1 hour, I'd only gotten to 6.62.  I'm seeking 6.56-6.50, so allowed it to go to 1 1/2 hr, at which time I got 6.59; at 2 hours, 6.56, at which time I renneted.

In terms of maybe upping the meso/thermo mix - aware that each has their role, at various times - any suggestions on tweaking the meso/ST ratio, to decrease ripening time to an hour or less? 

I'd have to go back over some notes from Pav, but I seem to recall there's nothing wrong with a slower, gentler, controlled ripening, in terms of texture and other parameters - in fact, it's a good thing (Pav, I hope I've remembered correctly).  Still, I'd feel better with an hour window, over 1 1/2-2 hours; I'm not quite comfortable with the open window to unwanted flora, and prefer the LAB to get their stronger foothold.  However, I'm not yet versed enough in the acid curve of this style, to be able to intelligently play with altering the meso/thermo mix.

Suggestions?
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 05, 2011, 05:55:13 PM
Arn - you should read up on Mother Cultures.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 05, 2011, 06:09:12 PM
Thank you, Sailor.  I am running a primer culture when I expect to do several of a "breed" in a row - say, several using MM100.  I'm not sure how to apply the thinking, when doing a one-off every few weeks, with mixed (meso/thermo) cultures. 

Additionally, I'm after some discussion of the meso/thermo mix, in terms of the acidification curve; if I merely add in a meso primer culture to up the ante and shorten the early ripening curve, for instance, how will this affect the later characteristics of this cheese?  You mention here:

Quote from: SailorConQueso
Both cultures are active early on and usually facilitate a faster initial pH drop.

So, if that is the case, is there some theory to help guide some thinking, in terms of adding proportionally more meso, more thermo, or both, if using DVI?  What are the ramifications, say, of keeping thermo constant while upping meso, or the opposite?

Can you expand?
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 05, 2011, 06:21:19 PM
A question about early acidification, during the low temp ripening.  In the middle of my second beaufort.  Cultures used were 1/8 tsp Meso Aromatic B, 1/16 (rounded) ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 propionic. 

Assuming my (new) meter is working decently, milk came in at 6.71, and after 1 hour, I'd only gotten to 6.62.  I'm seeking 6.56-6.50, so allowed it to go to 1 1/2 hr, at which time I got 6.59; at 2 hours, 6.56, at which time I renneted.

In terms of maybe upping the meso/thermo mix - aware that each has their role, at various times - any suggestions on tweaking the meso/ST ratio, to decrease ripening time to an hour or less? 
Yeah, that pretty well coincides with what I see. Sometimes it goes to 3 hours before I see any movement in the pH. The cultures are fresh and have been kept in the freezer so I don't believe it's a question of outdated cultures. It's frustrating, especially when I read of other folks who seem to be ripening according to stated recipes (45-60 min.). Of course the obvious answer is to dump in a higher concentration of the little critters much as you'd do for a quick fermentation start in beer. Then I would think you're faced with a runaway train culture.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 05, 2011, 11:09:07 PM
Arn - Look at my original posting of the recipe. The bacteria were:

Mesophilic  - MA011 (1/8 tsp). This develops the initial acidity at the lower ripening temperatures.

Thermophilic  - TA061 (dash - 1/16 tsp). This will develop acidity at the higher temperatures and during early pressing

Thermophilic (Helveticus)  - LH 100 (2 pinch – 1/12 tsp). Enhances proteolysis (protein breakdown) during aging to help create that fabulous Alpine texture.

Aromatic B provides more flavor but is NOT a rapid acidifying culture, so YES it takes quite a while to see pH drops. You can add a little MA-11 ("Meso Acidifier") to move things along quicker. I suggested a Mother Culture because you get much faster results. You can usually expect the correct pH drop almost immediately. As Pav & I have both stated, add MC and you can rennet within a few minutes. The TA ("Thermo Acidifier") doesn't kick in until well into the make, but it will give the needed acidity boost. Measure the surface pH of your pressed cheese and you'll see the results.

Lots of cheeses are being made with Meso/Thermo blends. The meso gives early acidification and a mix of desireable flavor and texture characteristics. Thermo acidifier provides later acidification and more complete lactose conversion. Helveticus gives faster and stronger proteolysis which enhances flavor and accelerates aging. You can't overdo the thermo cultures or your cheeses will all taste like Parmesan.

Your starting pH was a little high for my taste, but you are looking for a "delta" i.e. change in pH, not an absolute before renneting. So a drop from 6.71 to 6.61 would be normal and expected.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 06, 2011, 02:09:35 AM
Arn - Look at my original posting of the recipe. The bacteria were:

Mesophilic  - MA011 (1/8 tsp). This develops the initial acidity at the lower ripening temperatures.


OK.  So, I'm presuming,

Quote from: SailorConQueso
I have been using Aroma B instead of MA-11 for quite some time and I like the flavor much better.


-means that you have a similarly slow drop?  Just wasn't aware of the difference in acidification curve. 

Quote from: SailorConQueso
you are looking for a "delta" i.e. change in pH, not an absolute before renneting.


Thank you, yes, I did recall this, from Francois' mentioning (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4072.msg44674.html#msg44674) that 1-1.5 was reasonable:

Quote from: Francois
For the time between culture addition and rennetting, always use change in pH.  It's not until you get to process steps later that absolute numbers are necessary.


Given that 6.56 was within the "1.5" delta window from a starting pH of 6.71, I was happy with it as a renneting point.  This, despite my previous experience (you  may or may not recall my earlier posting - whether a bad meter, or a bad make, I apparently had a high pH going into hooping:

Quote from: SailorConQueso
A pH of 6.56 at hooping is WAY off target. You should have that or lower at renneting.


(btw - I took this as an absolute benchmark, not a delta.  From your comment, I also took this to mean 6.56 was on the high end, as an absolute, when renneting).

At any rate, I wasn't horribly concerned about the slow drop (as I mentioned above, I recall a conversation with Pav (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4072.msg44683.html#msg44683), re: slow development:

Quote from: linuxboy
We talked about this briefly on the phone. Long, and slow tends to produce the best outcome. When you slowly use the lactic acid to break apart those colloidal calcium bonds in micelles, it will give you a very even disassociation pattern. And a better paste in the finished cheese because that rate of disassociation also influences the degree of casein hydration. It's a very, very important principle in cheesemaking.

Francois here has said he likes for the acid to act slowly on the caseins, and then add rennet when the right acidity is in the milk.


-just looking for some suggestions on a means to tighten it up, a bit (now that I think again of the above conversation, I'm not really concerned over the "long and slow" acidification).  I wasn't aware of the Aroma B curve.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 06, 2011, 10:27:22 AM
Yes, there is no question that slow and steady is "better" but that comes with a couple of caveats. You have to be willing to wait longer to hit pH curves and you have to have the patience to wait for your cheeses to age properly. Slow and steady also means that it takes longer for a cheese to age. Many people here on the Forum are in too big of a hurry and want to sample their cheeses the day after they make it. For me as a small commercial micro-creamery, I have to have a balance between long aged quality and sales for cash flow. In Italy, banks take Parmesans as collateral for loans because of the long cash flow cycle.

The MA series means "meso acidifier". It contains Lc. lactis lactis and Lc. lactis cremoris and is the workhorse for lactic acid production. Nothing fancy, but it gets the job done. So much so that Wisconsin has officially designated Lc. lactis lactis as the state bacteria.
Aroma B also contains these bacteria but also includes Lc. b diacetylactis (for diacetyl or buttery flavor) and Leuc m. cremoris (for long chains that improve texture). But neither of these 2 bacteria are very good acid producers.

Let's assume for discussion sake that the MA is an even mix of 50/50% of the two bacteria. Let's also assume that Aroma B is an even mix of 25/25/25/25% of the 4 bacteria. So, the ratio of good acid producers is greatly reduced by 50% in an Aroma B mix. That effectively means that you are using only half of the good acid producers compared to using just an MA culture mix. THAT is why you get much slower acid production with Aroma B, Crème Fraiche, or Flora Danica (they are all the same thing). The slower pH curve is quite a bit less if you use a Mother Culture, because the bacteria are really active from the onset.

So you can either wait it out and ignore the times in the recipes, follow the recipe times and ignore the pH targets, or compensate for the slower pH curve. You can add more Aroma B to begin with to boost the acid producers, but you are also adding more of the other bacteria as well. Or you can add a little extra MA in the beginning to add more of just the strong acid producers. NOW you are creating a custom mix that defines you as a cheesemaker.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 06, 2011, 10:30:06 AM
Excellent.  Thanks for the explication, Sailor, perfectly helps my understanding, and so much appreciated. 

Paul
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Boofer on March 06, 2011, 02:05:11 PM
Thanks, Sailor. That helps my understanding as well. My next make will use the Aroma B as I have been doing but will include a touch more lactis and cremoris to try to increase the acid production and reduce the ripening time. Good stuff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 07, 2011, 09:21:49 AM
Slow and steady also means that it takes longer for a cheese to age.

Sailor, after thinking on this more, you've got me curious, just want to verify I've gotten it correctly. 

It seems to me that it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se, but either the particular meso species (not just their acidification rate, but their particular lysis behavior, on dying, in terms of enzymatic contributions; their ability to withstand the cooking, in terms of numbers surviving the scalding) or bioload (related, though not the same:  more in=more out to make the later contributions, described below).

So - whether by knowing the particular species' behavior in terms of the above (I don't know whether all meso species tend to have the same properties here), or increasing the meso bioload, the later aging is slowed because aging depends, in part, on the lysis and consequent proteolytic activity of the "killed" meso LABs, and, in  a more minor way, aging contributions (a full glycolysis) are aided by the continued activity of the meso LABs that do survive the make; so that the less going in not only slows the ripening, but slows their would-be later contributions, as well. 

Do I have this more or less correctly?

Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: linuxboy on March 07, 2011, 09:47:31 AM
Quote
it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se

Mostly right. You must develop acidity and break down some of the calcium bonds before adding rennet. For just about all cheeses, this takes about .1 -.15 in pH drop. You also need this drop for the rennet to work properly. For my milk, this means I usually rennet at about 6.5-6.55.

But absolutely, strains matter, amount matters. Sometimes I use adjunct meso strains in addition to a regular meso blend to develop more complex flavor compounds in cheese. One of the challenges of modern cultures is that the ones that are phage resistant and the ones that acidify quickly and predictably tend to not lyse easily. So flavor formation is slow. There are strains (Hansen and Danisco both have them) that do the opposite - build acidity slowly, usually not having enough umph to get much below pH 5.5 before the slow down, but that lyse very quickly and will give you good flavor and aroma formation. I use them in tweaking recipes when consulting for commercial creameries, especially those that use pasteurized milk.

In using normal cultures, like Aroma B, FD, etc, it's just like Sailor said, your heterofermentive tend to develop acid slowly and tend to lyse faster than the classic L. lactis lactis and L lactis cremoris.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 07, 2011, 10:00:57 AM
Quote
it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se

Mostly right. You must develop acidity and break down some of the calcium bonds before adding rennet. For just about all cheeses, this takes about .1 -.15 in pH drop. You also need this drop for the rennet to work properly. For my milk, this means I usually rennet at about 6.5-6.55.

Thanks, Pav.  I should have specified, when I said "it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se," I was talking only about this concept of how a slow initial ripening retards later aging, which hadn't occurred to me until reading Sailor's comment. 

But absolutely, strains matter, amount matters. Sometimes I use adjunct meso strains in addition to a regular meso blend to develop more complex flavor compounds in cheese. One of the challenges of modern cultures is that the ones that are phage resistant and the ones that acidify quickly and predictably tend to not lyse easily. So flavor formation is slow. There are strains (Hansen and Danisco both have them) that do the opposite - build acidity slowly, usually not having enough umph to get much below pH 5.5 before the slow down, but that lyse very quickly and will give you good flavor and aroma formation. I use them in tweaking recipes when consulting for commercial creameries, especially those that use pasteurized milk.

In using normal cultures, like Aroma B, FD, etc, it's just like Sailor said, your heterofermentive tend to develop acid slowly and tend to lyse faster than the classic L. lactis lactis and L lactis cremoris.

This is fantastic information, a good first-rung handle now on methodologies in actually engineering new cheeses (not merely aping old traditions, or another's recipes).  I will have to dig deeper now on not only which strains are hetero/homofermentative, but how and why they behave differently, in terms of what we're discussing.  Thanks again, gents.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2014, 10:47:02 AM
Sailor, I think we covered this somewhere but, looking, I wasn't able to find this; I think it was either you or Francois who wrote about it, sorry.  If choosing one MC (and not two, one meso and one thermo), would you opt for the meso (say, MA011), or the thermo (say, ST) - with the balance of whatever SLABs used to be in DVI?  Can you explain the reasoning behind your choice?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 13, 2014, 11:21:47 AM
You should review my post of 3/6/2011 above.

As I have said in other posts, I do not believe in mixing MCs with DVI unless there is something, like P. shermanii, that cannot be maintained as a MC. That being said, you would always want to favor the meso for MC because that is what is going to contribute first and most to acid production. Then, when you heat the curds to thermo temperatures, you are going to kill most of the Mesos anyway. Even then, the dead mesos will release enzymes that will contribute to later aging.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2014, 11:30:44 AM
Sailor, thanks. 

Just to clarify, I might be misunderstanding what you mean when you say you don't like mixing meso and thermo MCs.  I thought you meant, you don't like mixing a starter culture that is a blend of meso's, thermo's.  For instance, MA4001 would be a poor candidate, because its inevitable that you would be screwing up the ratios when culturing up a blended starter. 

Do you mean, you don't like mixing MCs in a vat - as in a meso MC (MA011), and a separate MC (ST), added in together? Or, if you're really inspired, culturing up 3 separate MCs, MA011, ST, LH100, and adding them in together.  Multiple mother cultures, inoculated separately, in other words?
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 13, 2014, 01:00:56 PM
We use culture mixes all the time. But in any given make, I don't believe in using MCs for one type of culture and DVIs for another. I would use all MCs or all DVIs.

"Really inspired" is exactly what we do - multiple MCs. One for meso, a second for TA-61 (ST), and a 3rd for LH-100. For different types of cheese, we use different ratios of TA-61 and LH-100 so a blended MC does not do what we want.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: ArnaudForestier on March 13, 2014, 01:09:08 PM
Oh, gotcha.  Thanks, Sailor.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: elkato on March 29, 2014, 01:56:18 PM
Sailor,
Do you think that choozit Alp alone can substitute the MA11, TAO60, LH100 mix in this recipe, and if not could you be so kind as to give me an amount of each of the cultures in the mix for a 100Lt make, and the PH targets?
thanks in advance for all of your help
Luis.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 30, 2014, 10:06:36 PM
The Alp cannot be maintained as a Mother Culture because the ratios would be WAY out of balance. It is not possible to give you an amount of each culture to match that mix. Every manufacturer has their own proprietary blend. The exact bacteria that you use and the pH targets are personal preferences. The advantage of using a Mother Culture is that you can make small adjustments to your bacterial mix to fit your needs. That's what makes it "your" cheese.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: elkato on March 31, 2014, 10:44:50 AM
 I don't use MC, I use powder DVI, but I have found the answer to my question reading carefully your entire post (this will teach me to do so)
Thanks Sailor

Paul tank you very much for your PM which was very helpful!!
Luis.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on May 23, 2014, 07:59:53 PM

So during the make, TA acidifies. The meso cocci add some flavor during affinage, and LH acts are the main agent that leads to flavor and paste formation. No time to post recipe right now; so much stuff is in my notes or my head, but I'm trying to go through it all. It's pretty similar to sailor's.

Hi Pav.  This is an old thread but I just wanted to thank you for this information!  That is the best explanation I have had for why mesos play a role in a thermo cheese!  Very succinctly put.  I have been searching for an answer to this for a long time.

NV.
Title: Re: Beaufort Recipe
Post by: NimbinValley on May 23, 2014, 08:02:40 PM
In this case, dominant doesn't mean quantity. Both cultures are active early on and usually facilitate a faster initial pH drop. I feel that the Meso is the dominant player in the beginning, although both are working hard. However, when you heat to 128F you kill off or deactivate many of the Meso bacteria. Now the Thermo is clearly dominant and continues the acidification thru pressing and brining. Meanwhile three things happen with the Meso culture. First, there is a well documented symbiotic relationship with the Thermo that enhances the whole make process. Second - some do survive and continue doing their thing. Third, the dead ones become part of the proteolytic process much earlier than normal in the affinage process. They release enzymes and provide a complex mix of flavors to the finished cheese. This early die off and proteolysis means that the cheese will also mature faster than a pure Meso cheese. Ironically, as LB pointed out, raw milk contains natural meso bacteria anyway and is one of many reasons that raw usually produces more complex and flavorful cheese.

Some award winning Cheddars for example are quietly being made by taking advantage of the meso/thermo symbiosis to produce more complex flavors with a much shorter affinage. Imagine getting the texture and flavor of a two year old cheddar within 8 or 9 months. Makes for better cheese and a better bottom line. That's probably why you don't see any recipes or many articles talking about this. The exact culture mixes and techniques are being carefully guarded. But I'm sure LB knows...... Ta Da........ (what a segueway)......

Likewise Sailor, an excellent post. Thanks for helping me to get my head around this stuff and thanks for being so generous with your knowledge.  One day I hope I can pass it on...