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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Cheese Head on September 11, 2009, 10:56:18 PM
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This is my first Lactic type cheese making, using member Alex's procedure/recipe (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1988.msg14652.html#msg14652).
RECORDS
- Sep 11, 2009, 5:30PM: Poured 1 US gallon jug of store bought pasteurized homogenized whole cow's milk from store that had been sitting in sink, into stockpot on small gas burner on stove. Measurements 19C/66F, 5.70 pH, turned on heat to warm, forgot, overshot Alex's target 20-22C, stirred, 29C/85F, 5.72 pH. Measured 0.26 gram Danisco's Choozit Brand DVI Mesophilic Starter Culture MM100 onto mini digital scale, (roughly 3.5 times manufacturers up to recommendation as mine is now 1 year old). Tapped off onto milk, let rehydrate a few minutes, stirred in with slotted ladle. Set aside for culture to pre-ripen.
- Sep 11, 2009, 6:15PM: As milk pasteurized, to standardize - help coagulation, trickled and stirred in 0.25 teaspoon/1.25 ml diluted CaCl2. Measured ~0.08 gram (75% normal amount) CHR Hansen Brand powdered rennet onto mini digital scale (hard to measure as very small amount), diluted in 1 cup cool water, trickled into milk and stirred in thoroughly for 1 minute and then stopping swirl with ladle. Covered, set aside for curd to set overnight.
- Sep 11, 2009, 10:00PM: Checked, solid curd formed, replaced cover and left at 77F/25C room temperature over night.
- Sep 12, 2009, 9:15AM: After 15 hours pre-ripening, found curd still formed but had not separated from the sides of the vat (stockpot) but rather stuck to sides and shrunk and split in middle. Minimal layer of whey on top, presumably as curd hadn't separated from sides and shrunk in all 3 dimensions. But, there were cracks in the curd! Ladled the curds and whey (no easy way to separate whey) into a draining cheeecloth bag, curds very fragile and broke up when ladling. Hung bag to drain whey and further ripen the cheese.
- Sep 12, 2009, 5:15PM: After 8 hours hanging, turned draining bag inside out to dump curds into mixing bowl. Stirred in 3/4 cup of chopped hazelnuts, tasted, similar to cream cheese, placed in pyramid shaped molds. Patted cheese down into corners and flattened top (bottom) which pushed a bit of cheese out of drain holes. Set pyramid cups on draining board to further drain.
- Sep 12, 2009, 10:15PM: After 5 hours draining, some whey drained onto draining board, but none dripped off end into sink (unfocused picture below). Cheese is too sticky to turn in molds, will not fall out, worried that already overmade cheese as warmer household temp than in Alex's Procedure, so placed on plate in household fridge to set overnight.
- Sep 13, 2009, 5:45AM: After 7.5 hours in fridge, checked, small puddle of whey beneath molds, does not extend past edge of mold (picture below). Placed one inverted outside fridge to see if will drop out of mold.
- Sep 13, 2009, 8:30AM: Gravity wins, cheese dropped, removed plastic mold and placed other two oustide fridge inverted to also drop (picture below).
- Sep 13, 2009, 9:00AM: All cheeses out of molds, tried rolling one in salt, too soft and sticky, mess, (picture below). Trickled salt from container on top of other two and down sides in hope of getting some to stick (picture below).
- Sep 13, 2009, 11:00AM: Puffed few spores of Geotrichum candidum and Penicillium candidum. onto each of cheeses, placed in plastic ripening box with lid ajar and placed box in cheese cave.
- Sep 15, 2009, 7:00PM: Drained whey off and cleaned aging container, keft lid ajar.
- Sep 17, 2009, 6:00PM: No whey, cheeses a little dry and aging container had crushed this lid and squished 2 cheeses (picture below). Placed one in household fridge to eat, continue with other two.
- Sep 20, 2009, 2:00PM: Partial mold bloom (picture below), transferred to smaller ripening plastic box, placed back in cheese cave.
- Sep 29, 2009, 2:00PM: Very strong mold bloom (picture below) including unwanted wild blue P roqueforti mold, washed two remaining cheeses with beer, placed on clen mat in in clean ripening plastic box, and placed back in cheese cave.
- Sep 30, 2009, 2:00PM: Cut and sampled one of cheeses, surprise, beautiful soft creamy with Gorgonzola taste.
- Oct 08, 2009, 8:00PM: Cut and started eating the last of these three at age 28 days. This one is firmer slightly drier than second, plus crushed hazlenuts were starting to get a little soft, taste is good but less bluing than number 2 which was consumed at 20 days and was better.
NOTES
- Drained whey from hanging the cheese was much more transparent than when making cut curds.
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Pictures #1 . . .
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Pictures #2 . . .
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Pictures #3 . . .
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Pictures #4 . . .
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Pictures #5 . . .
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As I was getting a very different result from Alex's recipe I PM (Personal Messaged) him and he kindly replied, those PM's copied here as useful for others:
Alex, I'm making your recipe here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2071.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2071.0.html)
Appreciate if you have any advice so far?
I plan to stir in some crushed nuts after hanging, and then apply P candidum like you did. I was thinking mold on only half but I think no way to keep separate.
Thx, John.
Hi john,
Nothing to comment so far. Usually I act like you, make half and half. About the mold, I add it at the beginning of the process as I do with my Camemberts.
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Second PM exchanged with Alex, again useful for others:
Hi Alex, OK I put in molds, frankly it doesn't look like your consistency at all, mine is like cream cheese, and tastes like it to.
Any ideas? I don't even know how I'm going to get it out of the molds as it's so sticky. Zero chance of turning it.
Hi John,
It is not compulsory (that's the word?) to turn the cheeses in their moulds. Usually I keep the curds in the cheeses cloth with some stirring and mixing during dripping, untill dripping stops. 6-12 hours dipending on the innitial curds consistency (I have no idea about the behaviour of store bought milk) and the total amount of curds. I am always on the shorter time.
Keep the cheeses in moulds for up to 48 hours for further drying. It is like a cream cheese and tastes like one, that's OK. During ageing the taste improves and changes totally.
In general it is a messy and delicate stuff to handle and the final result worths it.
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Alex (& others):
Last night (my time) I got scared that:
- Milk > cheese had been outside fridge for 29 hours in my warm than most 77F/25C room temperature.
- I had started with too more than most amount of meso starter culture and with milk too warm so I probably had much faster acidity development than recipe.
- Very little whey still being drained.
So I chickened out and put them in the house cold fridge to set overnight.
For making hanging bag type Cream Cheese or Neufchatel I also stir/move the caked curds away from the bag wall to allow interior moister curds to drain better, but didn't here as it was draining so well anyway. Also, how do you get P candidum on half these cheeses if you put that mold into the milk up front?
I've still gotten a very different looking result than your or clherestian's in this thread (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1988.15.html). I see four things different:
- Both of you use raw cow's milk, I used store bought past & homogenized whole cow's milk.
- My amount of starter culture could have been higher than yours plus I started with a higher initial temp so faster acidification.
- Too much rennet? I had a good set when I checked after 4 hours.
- Higher room temperature thus again faster acidification.
Any ideas why so different?
Thanks!
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Milk > cheese had been outside fridge for 29 hours in my warm than most 77F/25C room temperature.
I had started with too more than most amount of meso starter culture and with milk too warm so I probably had much faster acidity development than recipe.
Very little whey still being drained.
So I chickened out and put them in the house cold fridge to set overnight.
You are right, 25 is a bit too high, you did well putting them in the fridge.
For making hanging bag type Cream Cheese or Neufchatel I also stir/move the caked curds away from the bag wall to allow interior moister curds to drain better, but didn't here as it was draining so well anyway. Also, how do you get P candidum on half these cheeses if you put that mold into the milk up front?
As I can see in the pic with the nuts mixed, the curds are quite moist, you always have to stir/move the caked curds away from the bag wall to allow interior moister curds to drain better.
P candidum: I make two batches in to vats.
I do not understand what exacdtly you see different? The "after over night" pic shows a wonderfull curds, exactly how it should look like, with cracks and some whey.
I do not use spicy and roasted nuts, just naturals.
The unmoulded cheese looks very good. Put it in the cave.
From here everything looks like "by the book" and great success.
Age them for 3 to 6 and even 8 weeks (if you have enough pieces).
Next time you move on to coat with salted ash/charcoal and wash with brine or beer twice a week after blooming.
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Alex, thanks for support/advice.
Both yours adn clherestian's look more curdy lump than mine which looks more cream cheese style.
OK they are back in the fridge. Will add a dab of P candidum, hope it will take.
Thanks for ideas on next batch(s).
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THis looks interesting CH. Hope that is starts to firm up a bit for you.
Keep us posted.
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John,
Can you let us know how they are aging? Any pics maybe?
As you may have seen from my previous other post I am having continual problems with slip skin/bad rinds on this type of cheese. I dont seem to have any problems with Camembert but these uncooked bloomy rind type cheeses are frustrating me.
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seigfriedw, yep saw your thread :(.
I just updated with one picture above and text in OP. I only added some G candidum & P candidum directly onto cheese after formed rather than in milk and sadly when I checked last night my RH has been too low as the lid fell in and heavier cheese squished two and thus neither have bloomed.
So sorry I can't be of much help, tasted squished one, very similar to cream cheese.
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OK, my P & G candidum have bloomed ;D. Alex any recommendations on where I should go with it from here? Thx!
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age them for 3-6 weeks (counting from makeing day), if you have enough cheeses, you may wash part of them twice a week, with beer/sweet white wine/brine solution during the ageing period.
I used to coat part of them with charcoal/ash+salt after unmoulding and let the blooming start.
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Do you wash them after the powdery stuff hardens?
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I am not sure what do you mean by "powdery stuff hardens". Look on the middle picture fully bloomed, that is the stage when I start washing. The last picture shows the chese after about 2-3 weeks of washing.
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Well I am guessing that this powdery stuff will get kind of hard or slick like the store bought bries and camemberrt rinds - not stay powdery?
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As a result of washing the rind, that's correct Debby.
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Alex - those are some beatiful looking cheeses!
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Tnx Siegfried :-[
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Ah ... I have been waiting for them to harden. I guess I should wash them then.
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Just be gentle with them ;)
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I guess gentle is not my middle name I have squished these poor things everytime I touch them. Do they ever get hard or will they always be a kind of cream cheese texture?
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They should get hard. The time it will take depends on how dry they were innitially.
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That makes sense my first batch is still very cream cheesy and the second batch is more like hmmm ... a soft havarti? Hard to describe being my first soft cheeses. :D
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Last night as my two remaining cheeses in this batch had really really bloomed (see pictures above) I finally beer washed them as recommended by Alex above, info/pictures of washing them here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2229.0.html). This morning I cut and ate some of the half squished one as I thought with very thick almost toad-slip skin stage rind. Note interior bluing of cheese in picture below where gaps in interior from when cheese got squished. I added no blue mold, and have not used any for 6 months, must be wild airborne.
Anyway, breakfast sandwhich was much to my surprise wonderful, cheese was soft and creamy with a Gorgonzola taste!
Questions to Alex (or others):
- I should have beer washed earlier right?
- I noticed on your pictures of similar cheeses that you have rind on all sides, I assume you turn cheeses on sides so that bottom also blooms?
Thanks, John.
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Looks really good John Congrats!
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Last night as my two remaining cheeses in this batch had really really bloomed (see pictures above) I finally beer washed them as recommended by Alex above, info/pictures of washing them here ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2229.0.html[/url]). This morning I cut and ate some of the half squished one as I thought with very thick almost toad-slip skin stage rind. Note interior bluing of cheese in picture below where gaps in interior from when cheese got squished. I added no blue mold, and have not used any for 6 months, must be wild airborne.
Anyway, breakfast sandwhich was much to my surprise wonderful, cheese was soft and creamy with a Gorgonzola taste!
Questions to Alex (or others):
- I should have beer washed earlier right?
- I noticed on your pictures of similar cheeses that you have rind on all sides, I assume you turn cheeses on sides so that bottom also blooms?
Thanks, John.
I am happy to hear you are satisfied and enjoy you cheese. It looks very young and humid. I think the blue mould is result of too humid/wet cheese+air gaps+some contamination. May be the cheese was not dry enough when it was unmoulded or even brfore moulding. You should wash them after fully bloomed and for 4 weeks at least (to my opinion). You also got a rind that looks strange to me. As for the the overall mold coating, I don't turn them, I put them on elevated wire mash "trays".
Anyway, it looks you are on the track, keep on.
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I broke one of the 1st batch today trying to wash it in beer so I tried the inside. Tastes sort of like cream cheese. Not cheesy at all. Te second batch is much firmer.
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these cheeses are not intended to be soft and creamy, but more like a firm paste before being crumbly (you can see in my pictures on this thread).
I hope you won't wash them inside ;D
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Alex, thanks for feedback. Now I see how you got mold bloom on their bottoms, very open wire. As you said yours must be much firmer to not get ridges, mine would have initially sunk 1/3 through those wires!
To get lower moisture content cheese, next time I think I will drain longer at room temperature before placing in cheese cave. I agree, my rind is very different, almost toad - slip skin rind. I think this is combination of 1) not adding spores to milk, 2) letting bloom get excessive before knocking it back by washing with beer, and 3) excessive humidity resulting in blue taking hold.
You say to wash for ~4 weeks, how frequently during that time? Also how long do you age for on average?
TIA (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,243.0.html)!
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Cut and ate the last of these three at age 28 days. Only washed once with beer, should have done earlier and more often and placed on wide wire like Alex's picture to enable mold on bottom.
This one is firmer slightly drier than last one, plus crushed nuts are starting to get a little soft, taste is good but less bluing than number 2 which was consumed at 20 days.
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Very good looking result John, congrats.
Just patience and more washing if you like. Washing only once will change the look only. Personaly, I like much less nuts.
Now you can advance to ash coating too.
As for mold on the bottom, it's not critical, use your mesh mats, just elevate them on some spacers.
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Alex, thanks, good looking, well barely but first try! Agree amount of nuts was a bit excessive ;D.
I'd like to get mold growth on bottom as these ones stuck to the mat >:(. I think it needs to be elevated more so better air circulation on bottom.
On ash, I don't have any and very expensive for small amount via cheese making supply stores (http://cheeseforum.org/Links/Links.htm). There's an Ingredients > Ash thread (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1296.0.html), appreciate if you have any better ideas on where to buy or how to make.
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I just have to say that this has been (and is) an awesome thread that continuously inspires me. I so want to try this myself. Especially with ash coating. White mold cheeses with ash coating are among my favorites.
Way to go John and do keep us posted!
(Shouldn't read the forum while making cheese. Now I'm thinking if I should have made my 8 liters into lactic instead of cheddar :) )
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Alex, thanks, good looking, well barely but first try! Agree amount of nuts was a bit excessive ;D.
I'd like to get mold growth on bottom as these ones stuck to the mat >:(. I think it needs to be elevated more so better air circulation on bottom.
On ash, I don't have any and very expensive for small amount via cheese making supply stores ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/Links/Links.htm[/url]). There's an Ingredients > Ash thread ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1296.0.html[/url]), appreciate if you have any better ideas on where to buy or how to make.
You need to elevate the cheese not more than 1/2".
I've made ash several times just by burning pieces of white ash in a tin box and crashed them with a mortar and pestle. It's messy, as well as coating the cheeses, but fun.
For the lactic cheeses, instead of salting the surface and then coat with ash, you may mix ash with salt and use it this way.
I know the French use grape ash, I didn't try it yet and I am not sure someone can identify the difference in taste. PINE, I'll never use. It's not good for smoking because of the high resin content, I am not sure about useing the ash, so I won't.
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If you are making your own ask I would stick with fruit and nut woods.
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Hi Pam, have fun with them!
I'm using store bought past & homogenized whole cow's milk and I also don't get a firm curd set like when you use normal amount of rennet. I thought about ladling mine directly into the molds, a small amount initially so that it doesn't squirt out the weep holes, but it would take a while and I only have three of these pyramid molds and they are not very big. If they were bigger or I had more then they should have worked. So instead I did like Alex and you, pre-drained via hanging bag.
I think I drained in bag too long as was soft cream cheese consistency and I had to pack it in a bit to fill the corners of the mold and as I got minimal whey drainage while in molds.
My understanding is as only very little rennet is used and at low temp you don't get normal full rennet curd and if using non-homogenized milk it will separate while forming soft curd as long time ripening in vat. I wrote some good notes here (http://cheeseforum.org/Making/Coagulation.htm) on acid vs rennet coagulation that explain it better.
Looking forward to reading about and seeing your results. I have second batch (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2338.0.html) aging now ;D.
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John -
I put my first batch straight into the molds and they took forever to drain. They started by weeping through the holes and slowly drained. Made for very wet cheese. The second batch I pre drained and it seemed much firmer. In fact I forgot the little buggers are in the mini cave until I just read this. OOPS!
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Debi, thanks, so your first batch directly into molds without draining bag turned out even moister!
Even with draining bag and then molds, my cheeses are moister than those in Alex's pictures, maybe because he's using raw cow's milk. Any ideas on how to get dryer are welcome . . .
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My first batch was scooped right in and so wet I thought I made brie! Actually I think Francios said the recipe I used was close to brie anyway but it ended up with slip skin by the time I got back from vacation. The second batch is solid enough but still growing white fur. Maybe I should wash them in beer again? That step was not in my recipe.
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Thanks for that info, John and Debi.
Maybe I'll stir the cream in before I put it into the molds. I'll get some pictures on here as I progress.
Pam
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Good luck Pam!