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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 01:01:20 AM

Title: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 01:01:20 AM
Okay I've done Camemberts and a Cambozola and neither of them ever got soft so I went back through my makes to see what might have gone wrong.  First thing I found was the extra cream I was using was ultra pasteurized.  The second thing I found was that I was adding Geotrichum per the recipe I found on the New England Cheese Making Site.  However, when I went through Tim Smith's book, he only has Camembert, and the 200 Easy Homemade Cheese book, for Brie, neither of them said to add this.  Not sure if Rikki is just trying to push product or if she really thinks this is necessary but I left it out this time around to find out if that was some of the problem.  I also used the SAM3 PC I recently purchased to see if I got better results with it. I made a 2 gallon recipe from the 200 Easy Homemade Cheese book for Brie.  I have 5 1/4" molds so it made up three cheeses.  Now we see if they fair any better then their predecessors. Here's what I have salted and out of the molds.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 01:07:51 AM
Now, with that said, here is a question for the pros out there, LB, Sailor, Alp, pay attention please.  This recipe said to cut the curd into 1" squares, which I did, and stir them gently.  I always thought, from all of the other things I've read, that you tried to keep the curd as large as possible to put into the mold.  Am I not getting something here? :-\  Seems every time I set out to make a cheese there are 10 different recipes and ways of doing things.  I usually try to combine the things that make sense from three different recipes to make a cheese but this is totally opposite.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Tiarella on January 23, 2013, 01:25:31 AM
I'm certainly not the expert you're hoping to show up but I can tell you that I've heard nit's important, according to some people, to use the Geo for more flavor nuances.  I think I read that at the www.cheeseconnection.net (http://www.cheeseconnection.net) site.  That said, I started making Brie without it.  I don't actually stir the curds at all.....I just ladle them into the forms.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 01:38:14 AM
That's what I've been doing Tiarella.  Largest curds I could ladle.  I also bought Geotrichum just for making Brie and Camembert and now find that it's, apparently, not used at all.  I have several different mesos that I can use for flavor nuances but it seems I always ended up with geo on the outside and little PC.  Bottom line is the Geo is out if this works without it.  BTW  I certainly appreciate your input and experience as I would that of anyone else.  Please, anyone feel free to comment.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: mjr522 on January 23, 2013, 02:47:38 AM
Check out this (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801)
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
Thanks for the link Mike.  Once I get one to actually soften like it should I can move on to more complex recipes with different nuances.  Right now I'm just a beginner trying to get one right. LOL :'(
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: mjr522 on January 23, 2013, 04:54:34 AM
I hear you--did you see my recent experience (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10858.msg82357.html#msg82357)?

My first cam (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10229.0.html) was nasty--the geo took over and very little PC grew.  My wife also complained that it stunk really bad.  The second batch looked good, and softened after about 9 weeks.  The texture was great, but it didn't taste very good.  You just saw how my third started, but I'm still hopeful it will turn out.  I hope yours turns out well, too.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 05:00:51 AM
Pretty sure too much geo was my problem too. 
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: george on January 23, 2013, 10:38:42 AM
Al, the 200 Easy recipe is what I use.  I usually don't bother with the geo either.  And I can tells ya that 19 batches down, it works just fine and produces a perfectly yummy cheese - as long as you don't do what I do half the time and forget to tend them at critical stages.   :o
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 03:17:55 PM
Thanks Mary.  I tend my cheeses twice a day, every day so that won't be a problem. ;D  Glad to hear someone else is using and liking this recipe though.  I used a straight meso this time but may try the Flora Danica next time if this works.  I understand it gives it a buttery flavor.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: linuxboy on January 23, 2013, 10:06:24 PM
Quote
This recipe said to cut the curd into 1" squares, which I did, and stir them gently.  I always thought, from all of the other things I've read, that you tried to keep the curd as large as possible to put into the mold.  Am I not getting something here?
In classic cam made with meso culture, an issue sometimes is curd that is too wet and never drains fully. Stirring a little helps to mitigate this by drying up the curd.

If your cam never softens, of course, change it up to not stir, and cut to bigger size to increase moisture content.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 10:11:01 PM
LB the ones that didn't soften were scooped out as large as I could.  This is the first time I ever cut the curds for a cam or brie.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: linuxboy on January 23, 2013, 10:25:22 PM
What was your milk like? And how good was the cover of mold? and what temp for affinage?  Too much cream, cams don't run. Too little remaining water, cams don't run. Too low of a temp, and they don't run. And a poor coating, they're not likely to run.

Have to balance everything. If they didn't run while scooping, curd size is not the issue.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 23, 2013, 11:26:34 PM
I believe the issue was too much cream and too much geo.  Temps were in line with the recipe 88F this time but 86F for the last recipes I believe.  Hopefully this recipe will give the desired results.  PC coverage was not what I would consider good on the last ones.  I changed to SAM3 on this one and will wait to see how good it works out.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: linuxboy on January 24, 2013, 05:33:51 AM
Quote
Temps were in line with the recipe
I meant during aging.

Too much geo.[/quote]
Possible, also possible what happened is not enough PC or not right conditions for PC.

Quote
PC coverage was not what I would consider good on the last ones
IMHO, don't fancy it up when you're just figuring it out. Use PC, work on the details and technique, and then play with the rind.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 24, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
LB my cave is 56 F with 85-90% RH.  This cheese is also moister.  The recipe I used originally called for the cheese to sit out at room temperature for several days until the surface dried.  The one I used this time does not.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 26, 2013, 05:21:42 PM
Well here it is day 4 and the pretty white fuzzys are starting to show up. ;D
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 05:17:37 AM
Quite a nice little fur coat now.  Had to sit them on the cheese paper to keep the mold from clinging to the mat.  You can see where it stuck on the back ones. I pet them every day!! A)
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: H-K-J on January 30, 2013, 03:00:46 PM
That looks great Al :o
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 03:15:40 PM
Thanks H-K-J!!  Now if it will just keep it up and the little fuzzys will do their thing to the insides.  ???
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 30, 2013, 07:49:26 PM
Al, when are you going to put them in the fridge for the final ripening?
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 30, 2013, 10:10:52 PM
Not for a while.  They are less than a week old right now.  I'll have to check the recipe again when I get home.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: AndreasMergner on January 30, 2013, 11:28:20 PM
Mind you, I'm doing Cams, but mine says 2 weeks or when fully bloomed.  I guess I thought yours was older since it looks just about fully bloomed to my inexperienced eyes across the ether.  It helps with ripening the entire thickness of the cheese.  http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9967.msg73801.html#msg73801)
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on January 31, 2013, 02:05:34 AM
Alright Andreas, the recipe calls for wrapping after about 12 days and returning to the aging area, not the fridge.  It says within a week it will begin softening and will be ready to eat at 4 to 5 weeks.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 01, 2013, 12:38:56 AM
Just a quick update.  They're still furry but not so fluffy. :o
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 04, 2013, 07:59:28 PM
Alright, day twelve was Sunday so I wrapped these in cheese paper and put them back into the cave.  I guess we'll see if they worked next week.  :D
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: shotski on February 09, 2013, 12:31:47 AM
Can't wait to hear how they turned out. Good luck
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 09, 2013, 01:13:40 AM
They're doing great!!!
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: bbracken677 on February 10, 2013, 07:22:40 PM
Al, when are you going to put them in the fridge for the final ripening?


I do not put mine in the fridge until they are fully ripened and ready to eat. Once in the fridge at the lower temps, ripening will all but stop. I have made several batches, and the only one I had ripening was a triple cream I made that a recommendation was made to lower temp to 43F, which I did...and they never did fully ripen, and developed off flavors. The following makes I maintained temp at 50F for the full duration and did not wrap...they turned out great!
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 10, 2013, 09:29:28 PM
The recipe I used does not call for putting them into the fridge either.  I will once they are ready to eat but not until.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 07:48:40 PM
Well this recipe worked just fine.  Boxed these up and placed them in the fridge today.  Really need to get those measuring spoons from Rikki.  LOL  Then I can add a measured pinch or smidgen.  :o
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: H-K-J on February 17, 2013, 08:15:31 PM
Al
you should be able to get those at any restaurant supply store, thats where I picked mine up at.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 17, 2013, 09:49:56 PM
I'll check Cash & Carry next time I'm there.  Hate to pay more shipping than something costs.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on February 23, 2013, 03:19:19 PM
Well the wife and I had one of these Bries last night and it was great.  Looks like I sussed it. ;D
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: shotski on February 23, 2013, 04:56:05 PM
Great to hear Al, My first brie was runny and lumpy inside but the rind was great. I plan on doing another Brie just do not have the time right now.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on April 27, 2013, 07:01:29 PM
Well I have since sussed out how to make a good Brie and have been making the little buggers left and right.  Thing is mine are a bit thicker than the normal ones.  More to love!!!  These are just 7 days old.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: JeffHamm on April 27, 2013, 07:22:42 PM
Look good!  My 3rd Brie is a week today as well, and has decent coverage.  However, it was a bit damp (from whey) and every flip for a few days had the down side quite wet.  It looks like some blue might be growing with my PC, or the PC is taking on a bluish tinge.   It's dried out now, so I'm hoping it will be ok.  I've had this happen on cams before and they still develop fine, but the rind looks less appealing (although apparently the rinds used to be multicoloured before labs separated out the strains of moulds).

- Jeff
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on April 27, 2013, 11:35:41 PM
Thanks Jeff!!  Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL  Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas.  We'll see how they turn out. :o
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: curd nerd on April 28, 2013, 05:08:32 AM
PC is best used at a ratio of 4x to GC 1x

congrats AL for persevering and i learnt much from posts,thankyou

i have always used both PC and GC together at the above ratio for three years and as yet [ fingers crossed ] no

problems

many regards ,brian

Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on April 28, 2013, 04:37:58 PM
I have found a heavy whipping cream from Albertson's "Everyday Essentials" brand that is not ultra-pasteurized.  I am adding 2 pints of it to 2 gallons of whole milk.  The curd is amazing.  After adding the rennet I allow it to sit for 90 minutes to set.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 05, 2013, 04:13:20 PM
Here are the 3 Cambozolas I did last week.  Coming along nicely. :D
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: bbracken677 on May 05, 2013, 04:35:27 PM
Those look a little thick, but hard to tell with no reference. How thick are they?
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on May 05, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
Thanks Jeff!!  Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL  Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas.  We'll see how they turn out. :o

Hi Al, Kathrin added beetroot juice (I think) to one of her cams for valentines day and it had a light rosë tint to it.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 05, 2013, 05:59:20 PM
Those look a little thick, but hard to tell with no reference. How thick are they?

BB like my Brie, they are at 2" thick after the first week, about 2.5" out of the mold.  By the time they ripen and are ready to eat they will be about 1.5" - 1.7".  I use two gallons of whole milk and two pints of heavy cream to make three cheeses in 5.25 diameter molds.  After 90 minutes of setting up with the rennet in it the pot is a virtual solid mass of curd.  Very little whey left. It's the same recipe as my Brie. I decided to try and add some PR in the center of these just to see how they came out. The wife really likes Cambozola. ;)
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 05, 2013, 06:07:58 PM
Thanks Jeff!!  Wonder if a few drops of food coloring in the milk could produce pastel bries. LOL  Used the same recipe today and added some PR to make some cambozolas.  We'll see how they turn out. :o

Hi Al, Kathrin added beetroot juice (I think) to one of her cams for valentines day and it had a light rosë tint to it.
  I may have to try some food coloring just to see what happens. ;D
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: drifterdon on May 07, 2013, 06:08:03 PM
Al,
If this same recipe was to be made using fresh raw jersey milk with the cream, (I guess it is called cream line) do you think that the extra cream you added to the recipe would be needed?
Or, would it still be recommended?

They look great by the way.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 08, 2013, 02:05:23 PM
I added it to make the cheese richer. 
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: bbracken677 on May 08, 2013, 02:30:03 PM
My first cams were made with extra cream....one of the results was it took longer to ripen.  Hard to say exactly what the effect was in total because it was my first make and I think I caused some of my problems by lowering the ripening temp to around 42F which also contributed to the extended ripening period.

End result was some off flavor that I really cannot say exactly what caused it other than the longer ripening may have contributed to the issue.

Have had much better success since that first make, but then I havent given the extra cream another shot either....the thought of giving it another go has been in the back of mind for some time, but just havent gotten a round tuit   ::)
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 08, 2013, 09:07:52 PM
I haven't had that problem with the extra cream.  I find that these bloom quickly and age just fine in the cave.
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: seemunkee on May 09, 2013, 03:10:59 PM
I noticed that the rind on yours does not look as fuzzy as what I am seeing on mine, and not sure if your comment on petting them was just a joke or if you do lightly wipe them. 
Should I be brushing/wiping them to knock down the fuzzyness?  If so what is the reasoning behind it?
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Tiarella on May 09, 2013, 03:26:04 PM
Hi Seemunkee, bloomy cheeses do need patting down.  Too luxuriant a growth of the PC causes slipskin and too rapid ripening directly under the rind.  Sometimes it seems hard to pat them down successfully but they will subside a bit if you keep patting every day or so. 
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: seemunkee on May 09, 2013, 03:27:43 PM
Thanks, one more reason I had such a running batch the last time.  I will have to start treating my cheeses like little immobile pets and being more kind to them. 
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Tiarella on May 09, 2013, 03:51:38 PM
Thanks, one more reason I had such a running batch the last time.  I will have to start treating my cheeses like little immobile pets and being more kind to them.

I am not a good example of good cheese parenting.   :-\  I regularly forget to take care of mine.  Maybe because I have noisier things to take care of; goats, sheep, chickens, cats.  I have gotten better at cheese care......  The things I try to do are:

on bloomy cheeses I flip (or rotate if there's something on top and I can't flip them) so that they don't stick to the matting as the PC starts to grow.  I pat them down as much as I can on the every three day rotation of getting around to remembering I have cheese responsibilities.   :-[

on natural rind hard cheeses I use a bamboo scrub brush or surgeon's brush to brush the mold off the rinds when I remember and I prop open box lids according to how much moisture is collecting on the inside of the box and how moist I want it to be.  I also wipe out moisture on the boxes when I'm checking.  If a cheese gets too dry I wipe it down with salt brine  (sometimes with a bit of wine added) or oil it.  Even if it's dried out to the point of the rind cracking I have had good success at rescuing by using a brine wipe down and of course, keeping the box lid a bit more closed for a while.

on hard cheeses that I'm trying to keep pristine I've been getting into coconut oil after using olive oil for the first few months of my cheesemaking adventure.  The coconut oil is easy to put on and can be whatever liquidity that you want for ease of use just by choosing what temp you store it at.  I massage the cheese with coconut oil to put on a layer and then check it every few days and when/if any mold starts to grow I add some more coconut oil.  It seems like I only need to do it 2-3 times and then nothing grows on it.  If just a little something grows on it I massage it without adding any oil. 

Hope this helps......
Title: Re: Doing a Brie, the Right Way?
Post by: Al Lewis on May 09, 2013, 06:39:37 PM
I pet mine down every day and turn them at the same time.   :o