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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Aging Cheese => Topic started by: Cheese Head on June 06, 2008, 01:37:45 PM

Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 06, 2008, 01:37:45 PM
For aged cheeses, after making and drying the next stage is affinage, the "art of ripening a cheese to maturity by monitoring all aspects to assure proper development of aroma, flavour, appearance, and texture". This maturing or ripening is where the cultures and enzymes etc in cheese do their work, thus a very important cheese making stage.

My understanding, from a scientific perspective, is that the maturing stage parameters are:

The parameter I want to talk about here is a key one, humidity. Over the millenium of cheese making, humidity control has been implemented via natural, washed or brine bathed rinds, coatings and more recently, waxes. I was in a store looking at cheese ;D that was a waxed wheel but had been cut into retail sized wedges and then vacuum sealed in thick clear plastic. This wrap was done to ensure that it continues to mature on the shelf while maintaining it's humidity and clear so that presentable to customers.

This got me thinking about coatings and waxes in cheese making that are fiddly and don't let you see what's going on inside, ie if mold develops and 21st century plastic vacuum bag sealers! The most popular and extensive brand appears to be FoodSaver (http://www.foodsaver.com/), but their machines cost USD100+ and permanently vacuum bag seal the contents with a roll of tubed plastic. Another well reviewed but very cheap brand is new in late 2007 Reynolds Handi-Vac (http://www.reynoldspkg.com/reynoldskitchens/handi_vac/en/home.asp) using resealable zip-lock type heavy freezer bags. Last night I went and bought one and bags. OK, a zip lock bag is definately not artisan old world, but it provides a very tight humidity barrier like wax plus it has the advantages of being:

I'll let you know how it works out . . .
Title: Re: Affineur & Maturing Cheeses
Post by: DaggerDoggie on June 06, 2008, 11:57:29 PM
I would think it would be very handy...particularly for us new cheese makers who want to try our cheese, yet find it is not quite ready and would like to age it a little longer.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on June 07, 2008, 11:20:35 AM
thanks for the post CH. i have often thought about vac packing but ....

since i already have a Foodsaver model #2460 i may give it a try also. Question, how would you know what the humidity is inside the vac bag ?

reg
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 07, 2008, 02:26:13 PM
reg, good point, you wouldn't, but don't when waxing to seal the cheese or when all the stores that plastic vacuum shrink wrap their cheese for sale. I think you could only do this liek waxing after a few days (depending on your humidity) when the cheese is dry.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on June 08, 2008, 12:21:40 PM
well i guess thats true CH. we would have no way of knowing what the humidity would be either waxed or shrink wapped. both methods are performing the same duties so i can't see why vac packing would not work on some cheeses

is it possible we are over thinking or getting confused about the way some cheeses are aged ? does it depend on what type of cheese we are making, ie:hard rinded cheese like Parm with its natural rinds vs Gouda, a waxed cheese with a soft or no rind.

i read about some cheeses being aged naturally, brushed one or two times a week and turned regularly. apparently this brushing has a lot to do with how the wheel breathes and affects the final taste. seems like the finishing or affinage as they call it is much more important in the final outcome of the cheese than the processing itself.

everyday we wake up in the morning and learn something new. now if i could only remember it all ;-)
Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 08, 2008, 12:32:35 PM
Good points, agree, this is only really a modern replacement method for waxed cheeses as it performs the same function.

DaggerDoggie has found a very cheap (in USA) humidity gage (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=76.msg389#msg389) which I assume one could seal inside the bag beside the cheese, giving additional maturing data that the Affineurs (http://cheeseforum.org/Bits_Bites/Glossary.htm) before us using wax couldn't have done.

FYI I think the 1 US quart bags will only be big enough for 1 US gallon/1 lb/0.5 kg hard cheeses, not sure about 1 US gallon bags. Currently for this brand machine that's the biggest. Maybe with your more professional FoodSaver brand you could seal larger pressed cheeses.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on June 08, 2008, 12:53:45 PM
the more i think about the vac pack method the more i like it especially for the Gouda. we are getting away for a few days and i think before we go i will vac pack the Gouda and the 8" wheel of the Alpine style cheese. this way we will be able to see the differences if any at a later date when we cut them

thanks CH
Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Webmaster on June 10, 2008, 11:39:50 PM
Email below and pictures sent in by reg:

Hi CH. These are what the vac packed cheeses looked like. Will be keeping a close eye on them over the next while to make sure everything is going along ok.
Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 11, 2008, 12:12:10 AM
Reg, congrats on being the vacuum bag guinea pig, you beat me to it!

I believe these are the cheeses in the Cheese Making - Records board (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=118.0) that you olive oiled to make a rind, they are still looking good ;D! Keep us updated on how they mature and if any mould develops inside in which case presumably too high a humidity inside before sealing?

Now that you have 4 cheeses aging, are you taking a rest or start a new cheese and thread in that board ;)? I'm going to make hard cheese this Friday . . .
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on June 11, 2008, 11:56:23 AM
morning CH. this vac pac aging will be interesting no question about it. will see what the outcome brings in three or four weeks. i know what the Alpine cheeses tasted like before so this will be a good experiment. another good experiment is the wine washed rind that i'm doing on the one 4" wheel of Alpine. it smells amazing at this point, can't wait to try it in another few weeks. have been brushing and bathing each week but think i may start to do this every three or four days

did not make anything this week but will be getting right back at it next week. what i will make i'm really not sure yet. my plan was to stay with only one or two cheeses until they were perfected so to speak.

reg



 
Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 17, 2008, 12:30:15 PM
OK Reg, in 1-2 days I will need to seal my wine soaked cheeses (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=177.0), the question is how?

It's been one week since you sealed some of your cheeses in vacuum bags, the beauty being that you can see the contents. So after 1 week how do they look, still happy or mould appearing inside or less vacuum from gas generate by the fermentation process inside the cheese?

Also, do you recommend olive oiling them before vacuum bag sealing or redundant sealing methods?
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on June 17, 2008, 02:40:01 PM
no sign of anything in the vac pac except the cheese lol. for the wine bathed cheese i simply wiped it down with more wine then vac pac'd. i would guess that the cheese is aging normally and that the bacteria in the starter is going about it's business presearving and flavouring the inside of the wheel. now having said that its possible that i'm out in left field as i have absolutely no experience with this method. time and taste will tell i guess

it is possible that i may cut into the 8" wheel of Alpine to test it in a week or so. that is the wheel i made with the 2% milk so that in itself will be interesting. it does feel firmer than the others. if the taste is ok i will just reseal the balance and continue aging

reg
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 17, 2008, 04:21:25 PM
Thanks Reg, so far two thumbs up, I'll follow your lead and vacuum bag mine using the handy-dandy vacuum bag sealer info posted at start of this thread.
Title: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on June 20, 2008, 09:13:45 PM
Done, 3 cheeses sealed for their long (hopefully :D) ripening voyage!

Only two sizes of bags currently made, the small one barely fit my 1.5 USG > ~1.5 lb/0.7 kg wine bathed Gouda's. The large one barely fit my 3 US gallon > 3 lb/1.4 kg Gouda.

Too 5 minutes to get the knack of using the pump, it has a small o-ring seal for where it touches the bag. To get it to seal you need to push the o-ring of the pump against the plastic bag against a flat surface, too hard and it selas against the back plastic side of bag, too light and it doesn't get seal.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on July 15, 2008, 11:09:27 AM
Reg, how did your vacuum bag sealing cheeses for aging work out in the longer run?

Mine developed water between the bag and cheese, presumably as I hadn't dried my cheese enough before sealing.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on July 15, 2008, 11:26:36 AM
morning CH. i would say that vac packing is the way to go from what i have experienced here. not as cute as the waxed but it works great.

again sealing or waxing at the right time is the key to the proceedure in my opinion. as of yet i still have not seen any water in the bags. both the manchego and the cheddar i have vac packed are still relatively soft but have not leaked a drop. as mentioned in another thread i may remove them from the vac pac and wax the faces and try to firm the body up a bit

reg
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: calgal98 on September 07, 2008, 12:57:34 AM
I'm terribly new to all of this, but it seems to me that the wax would breathe a bit whereas the sealer wouldn't allow that.  Please, feel free to correct me.  I'm so new I still LOVE vinegar cheese!! LOL
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on September 07, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
morning calgal. to be honest i'm not sure if the wax coating would breath or not. just don't have enough experience in the cheese making field yet.

the way it looks to me at this point is to air dry until you get the texture/dryness you are looking for then vac pac to age. have an Alpine style cheese in vac pac as we speak so time will tell

reg
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: BoilerMaker on September 28, 2008, 08:00:03 PM
I followed the lead from CH and bought a Reynolds Handi-Vac for a basic hard cheese that I made about a week ago. I sealed the cheese 3 days after I made it (it felt dry to the touch) and saw some liquid in the bag within a half hour. I let the cheese dry for 2 more days and then resealed it. As of today, seven days after the cheese was made, 2 days after I sealed it in the bag, these is still no water.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on September 30, 2008, 01:56:45 AM
BoilerMaker, congrats, success, I've been using the bags steadily and work fine, as long as cheese is dry enough when seal.

To calgal98, you are probably right in that wax does breathe a little more than plastic (which also breathes). But the flexibility of the vacuum bags easily is really really nice :).
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: reg on October 07, 2008, 12:40:35 PM
morning everyone. just wanted to update the progress with vac packing. Sunday night i had company and decided to open a bag of the Alpine that was made on July 15th. boys and girls this vac packing works ! my Alpine has aged significantly since my last taste test. seems like a totally different product now. this cheese has grown into something that i was not expecting at all.

it won't be long before i start making plenty of this style of cheese again.

reg
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: brandeeno on October 28, 2008, 06:36:58 PM
Guys, what about taking this one step further (or is this could be one step back) and not even vacuum packing it? What about just using plain ole zip locks and sealing the cheese. There would be minimal air in there… anybody try this? think it would work? I guess I’m trying to be as cheap as possible for my first few cheeses, and would like to try using normal ziplocks, and I would attempt to suck as much air out as possible.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: SalMac on November 22, 2008, 05:00:44 PM
Anyone got any recommendations for a good value vacuum packer?

Thanks

Sal
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on November 22, 2008, 09:51:58 PM
Brandeeno, good point which I've also subsequently thought about. If you squeeze the air out and then close remainder of zip it should work reasonably well.

SalMac, in my original post I had some info on the one I bought. I've since seen similar but using a simple cheap plunger. reg has a big expensive one. It all depends what you mean by vakue.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Tea on November 22, 2008, 10:30:50 PM
I have only used the zip lock bags, and it has worked well for me.  But as I don't have a vacuum  set, I can't say which would be better.  Having said that, I have only used them with cheeses that have been matured for around 2-3 mths.  I can't say how they would go for a long term maturing.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Tammy on February 22, 2009, 09:38:25 PM
I am reviving an old post, but just wanted to incorporate my limited experience here.  When I first made hard cheese last winter, I vacuum sealed all of it.  I did not want to deal with the wax and I had a nice vacuum sealer already.  I felt, after making all of last winter's cheese and vacuum sealing it that perhaps it had not aged as well as it should have due to not being able to breathe. 

This year, I have not vacuum sealed the cheeses I have made.  So, I guess you could say that I am experimenting in reverse!  Seems to be typical for me to do things backwards!   :-\
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cartierusm on February 23, 2009, 09:16:07 AM
Well how did the two different methods make the cheese taste?
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Tammy on February 23, 2009, 01:45:36 PM
Hands down, the taste is better in the cheese that was not vacuum sealed.  I think aging the cheese the desired amount of time and then vacuum sealing might be the way to go.  The vacuum sealing seems to hinder the aging process.  Or, at least that's my experience.  I would love to hear if anyone else has better success because the vacuum sealing is such an easy way to go.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cartierusm on February 23, 2009, 08:32:44 PM
Thanks that's a good thing to know.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: BoilerMaker on March 06, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
Updating on my earlier post, I have stopped vacuum packing my cheeses for aging.

Last fall over the course of a couple of months I made and packed five different cheeses into vacuum bags. One cheese started to grow some mold after about a month, so I opened it up and immediately noticed a rancid or sour smell. I cut off a small piece, ate it, and the result was not what I wanted. I ended up opening all the other cheeses I had packed in bags. I ended up throwing out four of the cheeses.

All of the cheeses I tossed were made from raw cows milk while the one that I kept was made from store bought milk. Not entirely sure what happened, but I'm guessing either the lack of air made ideal growing conditions for an anaerobic bacteria in raw milk that is not wanted in cheese making or the lack of air exchange allowed bad gases (CO2, ammonia, maybe others?) to build up ruining the cheese.

I've since been aging without anything covering my cheese (other than my cave). I have to deal with more mold, but all of the cheese has been good! When I start to eat the cheese, usually after aging for 4 weeks or so, I can vac pack cheese or put them into a ziploc bag without any ill effect.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: wharris on March 07, 2009, 12:11:59 AM
I wonder what the deal with that is...
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on March 07, 2009, 11:19:24 AM
BoilerMaker, sad to hear the bad news.

I also found that on some of my cheese makings I was getting whey around the cheese inside my vacuum bags. So in my case I was wrapping them too early, pictures in some of my cheese making record type posts.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: BoilerMaker on March 07, 2009, 01:59:15 PM
I had the same issue whey issue with a couple of my cheeses; a gouda and a colby. But the others (cheddar, m. jack) had no issues with excess whey so I'm not entirely convinced that the whey was the issue.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: goat lady on March 09, 2009, 04:02:25 PM
 I just opened a 2year old cheddar that was vacum sealed and it was wonderful
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Foodieguy on March 20, 2009, 12:40:35 AM
I am new to this discussion board, and appreciate all the great info here. I have used my vacuum sealer plenty. Something you need to remember is that you are lowering the atmospheric pressure on the cheese inside the bag. Even the best rind on the outside is holding back moister. Once you put it into the vacuum the whey on the inside is now pressurized, and is forcing itself out past the rind.

Also, the wax is air tight as is the plastic. The whole idea behind the wax was to keep out the nasties.  If you do get mold that is a sign you did not make your wax seal air tight. Same with the plastic bag in vacuuming.

Great ideas and input!!!!
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Cheese Head on March 21, 2009, 12:26:33 AM
Foodieguy, welcome to the forum!

Thanks for your thoughts on vaccum bags and on them pulling moisture out of cheese, good point. This was probably part of the cause for problem I had of whey around outside of rind, other reason was probably that I wrapped them too early before drying enough.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: DeejayDebi on March 27, 2009, 11:36:05 PM
I have one asiago I air dried in my spare unheated room for 3 few months then vacuum sealed. It's been in the fridge for over a year with no mold. This was a tasty cheese at 3 months and I expect it will be a great cheese for grating when I get around to it. I love asiago grated on pizza and in soup.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: BoilerMaker on April 03, 2009, 07:32:10 PM
From everyone's input, and my own experience, it sounds like I just need to let the cheese age for a while before vacuum sealing. Now if I can just keep the mold at bay until that point...

Deejay this is a little off topic, but where did you get your Asiago recipe? Any chance you could share as I have not been able to find one online?
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: DeejayDebi on April 04, 2009, 11:18:40 PM
Boiler maker
I scaled it down from a 100 gallon recipe I got from a farm in Wisconsin. I have my recipe here.

http://deejaysworld.net/deejayssmokepit/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1200537380 (http://deejaysworld.net/deejayssmokepit/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1200537380)

Sorry I can't remember who asked but I have a Food Saver Vacuum Sealer one that will do wet stuff and it works great I've had it for 3 years now. Love it!
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: cowboycheese on April 06, 2009, 12:00:22 AM
Newbie here-

I've used my Foodsaver for 6+ years I think on everything. Using it on store bought vs. artisan can tell you something about the quality or lack of proper pressing and aging. Some really cheap cheddar from the local grocery can end up soggy soup after a week in the bag.  Can't wait for my moulds to show up - my store bought days are nearing and end!

Thanks for all the info you all have posted!

I'm going to try both vac pack and waxing. I'm hopeful the vac bags will be fine, plus it should be safer than waxing - at least for me as hot wax and I are not friends right now...  :o
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: wharris on April 06, 2009, 12:09:34 AM
Cowboycheese,

Many folks here do in fact use the vacuum bags.  I have used them myself.

Speaking just for myself, i will not use them going forward. 

I do not like the the fact that the vacuum will pull whey out, through the rind that would not ordinarily be expressed due to the vacuum pressure.

I also do not like the the marks that the vacuum leaves in a round wheel of cheese.

Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: zenith1 on April 21, 2009, 09:58:06 PM
I have been following the posts in this thread since they were started with great interest. I have two cheeses vacuum bagged now for ~ two weeks. No problems so far. But I am still not convinced that although this is the easiest way to go, it's the best. I am convinced the the comments in this thread that if you are going to use this method, you need to adequately air dry before placing in the bag. Also you are creating a negative pressure on the cheese of varying amounts based on the amount of time you evacuate the bag. How does this affect the final product? I won't know how it affects the flavor development until the aging is completed, but taking into consideration the aerobic nature of the bacteria I would guess that some change is inevitable. Time will tell on that matter. I'm very interested in hearing how their aged cheeses have fared in the bags as far as texture and flavor. Has anyone tried this on a cheese that is typically not waxed, say a grana style. I know that this would not be a tradition based method, but doesn't oiling a rind due essentially the same thing, IE. sealing the rind off from the air? I think there are many variables involved here that our experiments will help solve. Thanks for every ones input on this topic.
Title: Re: Vacuum Bags Instead Of Wax For Aging Hard Cheeses
Post by: Foodieguy on July 31, 2009, 07:44:35 PM
Up date on vacuum bags...

My girlfriend opened the bag before it had fully aged, but I thought it had a great flavor and not too moist. She thought it was bitter and did not like it.
Karma got her for opening the bag before it was time.