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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => INGREDIENTS - Ripening Aroma & Flavour Cultures & Enzymes => Topic started by: JeffHamm on November 11, 2011, 06:40:29 AM

Title: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: JeffHamm on November 11, 2011, 06:40:29 AM
Hi,

I understand lactobacillus helveticus is a thermophilic flavour enhancer.  But, does it do it's "flavour enhancing" during the make or during aging?  And if the latter, does that mean you could add it to a mesophillic cheese and it would still do its thing?  (break down amino acids or proteins or ?)  Or, is the lower temperature of a meso make sufficient to prevent it from growing to sufficient quantity?  Hmmm, could you heat a small pot of milk to a warmer temp to grow the LH, then cool it to meso temperature and add this at the end of the ripening period?

Can you guess who has a new culture to play with?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on November 11, 2011, 06:51:51 AM
Quote
does it do it's "flavour enhancing" during the make or during aging? 
For which cheese? i think what you're asking about is enzymatic properties and flavor formation during protein catabolism. But, although this is not a typical application, you can use LH as a flavor enhancer in fresh cheeses. It can produce different byproducts to create flavor differences.... different acidic profile.

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does that mean you could add it to a mesophillic cheese and it would still do its thing?  (break down amino acids or proteins or ?)
Correct. When using as adjunct, you change nothing in the make parameters. Endo and exo proteases aid in flavor and aroma formation.

Quote
Or, is the lower temperature of a meso make sufficient to prevent it from growing to sufficient quantity?
It is actually irrelevant. LH populations will increase as the cheese ages at first, at normal cellar/cave temps.

Quote
could you heat a small pot of milk to a warmer temp to grow the LH, then cool it to meso temperature and add this at the end of the ripening period?
Yes. So long as they are live, viable cultures, add them however you want. target .1% bulk equivalent and up when using as adjunct. More = more flavor, but you risk it becoming more and more like parm if you use too much.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: JeffHamm on November 11, 2011, 06:57:26 AM
Thanks linuxboy.

Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on January 30, 2012, 01:10:05 AM
The idea that using more helveticus creates a parmesan type flavour profile is interesting as  I thought it would push things along in the direction of a nutty sweet swiss type flavour.  Any comments here?

Thanks.

NVD
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on January 30, 2012, 01:58:25 AM
Again, strain specific. If you use a typical parm helveticus and start adding it in at around .4%, it will start tasting more and more like a parm. But if you use a helveticus that produces different combo of proteases, then it will contribute additional flavors.

But even in all that, have to consider that flavor formation has to do with rate of reaction and limiting factors within the cheese. So if you add a ton of enzymes via extra cells, it's not a foregone conclusion that the intensity of certain flavors will continue to increase. It does to a degree, until about .4% bulk for most helveticus. It works as a system.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: JeffHamm on March 11, 2012, 10:33:43 PM
Hi,

I had missed this.  The label on mine says for swiss type cheeses, so I'm suspecting it's of the Swiss strain.  I've added it to my last two butterkase.  The first one I also washed the rind, so the change in flavour was mostly due to that.  My recent make just has the LH addition (so it's not really a butterkase any more), and we'll see where that ends up. 

Hmmm, the first one had formed quite a few small eyes.  Does LH produce a bit of gass?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on March 11, 2012, 10:47:27 PM
Quote
The label on mine says for swiss type cheeses, so I'm suspecting it's of the Swiss strain
Likely, that label came from a reseller or retail supplier. Which culture? The suppliers, helpful as they may be, are often clueless about the origins. So it's hard to say... technically one may use any culture for any cheese.

Also, LH is not uses for most swiss styles any more, except as a limited adjunct. It drops pH too much, causes defects. Preferred nowadays is delbrueckii.

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Does LH produce a bit of gass?
no.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: JeffHamm on March 12, 2012, 12:20:07 AM
Hi LB,

It just says " lactobacillus helveticus, good for swiss type cheeses" (or something to that effect).  It's interesting you say it drops pH too much as I've noticed the two makes I used it in ended up floc'ing much faster than any other make, even though I used the same amount of rennet.  I was figuring the LH must have caused the acidity to increase more rapidly and this interacted with my rennet.  My next make was going to get adjusted to compensate.

Hmmm, but no gas.  Must be the buttermilk starter I used, though it's not produced eyes in other cheeses.  Curious.  I'll wait to see if this next make does the same thing.  It may have been a one-off occurrence.

Thanks.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on March 12, 2012, 12:36:05 AM
Quote
lactobacillus helveticus, good for swiss type cheeses
As in emmenthaler? Something that needs eyes? It's terrible for emmentaler, almost always will lead to post-acidification defects. Emmentaler can't go beyond 5.3 too much, the paste will be wrong for good eye formation. For other swiss-region cheeses like gruyere, it's alright.

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I was figuring the LH must have caused the acidity to increase more rapidly and this interacted with my rennet.
possible synergistic effect, yes. More so, I meant at salt and pre-terminal. It wants to keep going past 5.3-5.4 all the way to 5.0, and for eye cheeses, this is terrible.

Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: JeffHamm on March 12, 2012, 01:27:53 AM
Hi LB,

I don't think it gets specific, as in what type of swiss cheese!  I'll double check later though.

Got you on the final acidity progression.  I think it must be doing something during ripening though, as my floc time has been pretty reliable and only the two makes where I used LH has it set up much quicker.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: H-K-J on March 24, 2012, 06:13:15 PM
I am planing on a Swiss this next week and have purchased LH this is what the supplier has posted on his site;
LH Series (20 doses)
(LB) Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp
(LH) Lactobacillus helveticus
(freeze-dried direct set/DVI-Direct Vat Inoculation)
Used in combination with TA culture for hard cheese, Italian types and Swiss.Use approximately 1/10 tsp.(.23g) for 1-10 gal.(3.7-37 liters) of milk.
Now I am rethinking, from what linuxboy has said
As in emmenthaler? Something that needs eyes? It's terrible for emmentaler, almost always will lead to post-acidification defects. Emmentaler can't go beyond 5.3 too much, the paste will be wrong for good eye formation. For other swiss-region cheeses like gruyere, it's alright.
possible synergistic effect, yes. More so, I meant at salt and pre-terminal. It wants to keep going past 5.3-5.4 all the way to 5.0, and for eye cheeses, this is terrible.
Now  I am totally confused and am wondering if I should even use it, guess I better do some more research?
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 24, 2012, 11:31:37 PM
Think of TA as "Thermo Acidifier". The Strep. thermophilus in TA is a strong acid producer but is inefficient in converting all of the lactose. Simply put, because it is producing acid so quickly, as the pH drops, it literally starts killing itself and can't finish the job. Consequently, the pH will stall. TA-50 for example will not drop below 5.2-5.3. The LH or Lactobacillus helveticus on the other hand is a weaker acidifier, but does a better job at converting more lactose at the end. So the TA comes on earlier and strong, while the LH is responsible for the finishing touches on the pH (sometimes too much). That's why it is often recommended to use the 2 cultures together.

The ratios of each culture to use is your choice. I personally use a 50/50 blend with Swiss types and a 20/80 (TA/LH) blend with Parms and Italian types. The increased acidity from the extra LH contributes to a hard, grating texture.

I'm sure LB is correct, but I have not seen any reference to defects from using LH in Swiss types. I do find that intriguing and may have to give the LB a try instead of the LH on my next Swiss. In any case, the final pH is critical to good paste and eye formation.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on March 24, 2012, 11:51:57 PM
Thanks for that succinct description in the different activities of those beasties.  I learnt something.

NVD.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on March 25, 2012, 02:57:49 AM
Sailor, it's very common in literature (peer-reviewed articles in academic pubs). It's actually kind of old news... the switch commercially by all large swiss makers happened in the 80s IIRC. Nobody uses helveticus any more in emmentaler or american (rindless) swiss. It's all delbrueckii + TA. I can try to dig up some articles and email them to you if you want, but it's kind of boring stuff. 20 pages with 1 conclusion type of stuff.

Now this is not to say it's not possible to make swiss with helveticus. It was done for many many years. And I'm sure anyone can do it again. But... the results are less consistent due to the very behavior you describe, which is continuous metabolism and acidification. With propionic and paste needs, if that cheese goes to even 5.2, the risk for paste defects (splitting, etc) rises drastically. So why fight it? Helveticus wants to acidify. Swiss doesn't do well with late acidification. So culture switch to delbrueckii and call it done. Which is exactly what the industry did.

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Now  I am totally confused and am wondering if I should even use it, guess I better do some more research?
Not sure what you're confused about or what research you need to do. I just gave you definitive best practices. You can use helveticus, of course. Chances are it will turn out fine, especially when you baby cheeses and make 1-2 at a time. But, if you want less risk and more consistency, use delbrueckii. Flavor wise, does not matter that much. For more flavor in swissies, add lacococci NSLAB, or cheat and add some FD (or other LD type culture).

Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: H-K-J on March 25, 2012, 02:29:12 PM
Not sure what you're confused about or what research you need to do. I just gave you definitive best practices. You can use helveticus, of course. Chances are it will turn out fine, especially when you baby cheeses and make 1-2 at a time. But, if you want less risk and more consistency, use delbrueckii. Flavor wise, does not matter that much. For more flavor in swissies, add lacococci NSLAB, or cheat and add some FD (or other LD type culture).
Well thanks for that L-B
I think I will just run with the L H (since I have already bought it) and try what Sailor suggests, I will be making a 4 gallon batch and I can see that I had better get some way of checking P H and as for my research I'll be getting a hold of the supplier and see what their recommendations are.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: H-K-J on March 26, 2012, 04:22:13 PM
I e-mailed my supplier and his reply;
"I would advise to use 1/8 TA and 1/16 LH since they each have different concentrations.  For Swiss or Emmental you need to add propionic bacteria."
I asked about a 4 to 5 gallon batch,what do you think about these amounts?
I guess, try and adjust, try and adjust.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 26, 2012, 05:23:17 PM
FYI - "suppliers" are frequently wrong.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 26, 2012, 05:45:21 PM
LB - just a little clarification needed.

Are you talking about Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus or Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis?

LB340 is just Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and is described as as a thermo adjunct culture. Why?

LH100, which is what I normally use is Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus plus Lactobacillus helveticus

TM81 contains Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp bulgaricus but is described as being just for Italian types.

Thermo B contains S. thermophilus and L. bulgaricus, but I'm not sure if that is actually a shortcut for Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus. It seems if that is the case that this would be the best general culture for Swiss and Gruyeres.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on March 26, 2012, 05:58:46 PM
Quote
Are you talking about Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus or Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis?
bulgaricus.
Quote
LB340 is just Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and is described as as a thermo adjunct culture. Why?
Slower than TA. In thermo cheeses, in almost all of them, TA is the primary acidifier. Kind of like lactococcus is for mesos.
Quote
LH100, which is what I normally use is Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus plus Lactobacillus helveticus
This is a workable choice when used with TA like you do. If it keeps working for you and your acid curve is good, I say don't fix what's broken. If you sometimes experience texture or paste issues, or acidity is harder to control, then switch.

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TM81 contains Streptococcus thermophilus and Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp bulgaricus but is described as being just for Italian types.
That's a classic mozz culture. It works fairly well in swiss.
Quote
Thermo B contains S. thermophilus and L. bulgaricus, but I'm not sure if that is actually a shortcut for Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus. It seems if that is the case that this would be the best general culture for Swiss and Gruyeres.
Yep, agree. Although gruyeres do need their FD or O+ some helveticus for flavor. Your beaufort blend looked decent, for example, so did Paul's, in the absence of whey starters.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Caseus on March 30, 2012, 02:48:59 AM
Thermo B contains S. thermophilus and L. bulgaricus, but I'm not sure if that is actually a shortcut for Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus. It seems if that is the case that this would be the best general culture for Swiss and Gruyeres.

This is often used for yogurt too, isn't it?
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: H-K-J on March 30, 2012, 03:54:58 PM
FYI - "suppliers" are frequently wrong.
OK, I want to do a 4 gallon batch for Swiss my supplier suggests 1/8 TA and 1/16 LH and 1/10 PS, your recommendation's are???
I do not want to throw away that much milk because of a stupid mistake. :)
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on March 30, 2012, 07:36:40 PM
There is more than one way to skin a cat, so those combinations are not going to be a stupid mistake. And you will end up with an edible cheese. If you have a pH meter, just watch it so the pressed cheese doesn't get below 5.3-5.4. If you don't have a meter, I would tend to be conservative with the LH because of the latent acidity that it produces. Just remember that the LH will continue to produce acid during pressing.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on May 03, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
LH100, which is what I normally use is Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus plus Lactobacillus helveticus

Can I just confirm/correct one thing.  I am pretty sure LH100 has Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. lactis, not bulgaricus.  I checked in on a spec sheet.  It was an older Rhodia Foods sheet so Danisco may have since changed it.

Now, I have been doing some reading to try and understand the difference between Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and lactis.  Any ideas?  Why would I choose one over the other?  All that I came up with is that bulgaricus has some advantages over helveticus in mozzarella since the cheese will be less prone to burning on a pizza.  But I couldn't find any info on why bulgaricus would be used instead of lactis in a cheese.

Any thoughts?

NVD
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on May 03, 2012, 09:54:09 AM
Slightly different pH curves. Metabolism is very similar. IMHO, splitting hairs to choose between the two. IIRC, LH 100 is l delbrueckii lactis.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: silverjam on May 07, 2012, 01:56:19 PM
My comments are not so relevant but I thought I would mention that yes you can defiantly use Helveticus with Meso. I use Kazu Meso (MM 100 with Helveticus) regularly in my Brick Cheese, and I have used it in a really nice Tilsit. Also Feta Meso has Helveticus in it. My thoughts based purely on taste and not on science are that it adds a sharpness and firmness a little more than straight Meso II or MM 100. My Brick is definitely firmer using Kazu than standard Meso. Not sure why?

Silver.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Tomer1 on May 07, 2012, 09:55:56 PM
I believe in making mother cultures and using them as bulk.  You can easly devide them to 0.5% inoculation by wight and 1-1.5%.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on May 08, 2012, 12:08:28 AM
Hi Tomer1.

I am starting to think about using mother cultures.

I am wondering what you think are the pros and cons of mother cultures.

Thanks.

NVD
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Caseus on May 08, 2012, 05:26:24 AM
I've considered using mother cultures, but since I have only enough time and money to make at most one cheese per week, I've concluded that there is little that I would gain by making mother cultures.  I don't believe it is practical or especially economical to use mother cultures at very low levels of cheese production, particularly when making vastly dissimilar cheeses that require completely different cultures from one week to the next.

In a nutshell, using mother cultures can help you obtain greater consistency from make to make as compared to measuring small amounts of DVI freeze-dried culture since your innoculation will be more consistent than you can possibly manage by measuring the dry DVI culture in fractional teaspoons.  If you make a lot of cheese, the cultures will also cost you less in the long run.  They are optimally kept in the fridge and used within a week of making them.  They can save you about 20 to 30 minutes of ripening time per make if you use fresh, not frozen, mother culture.  Freezing them is possible, but it reduces the time savings somewhat during the make, and it affects cell viability and thus must be compensated for when pitching the culture. 

Here are the main reasons why I concluded that making mother cultures would not be beneficial for me, and in fact would impede my cheesemaking and needlessly increase the complexity:

- Although cultures can be frozen, and many people do, it is not optimum and would not be practical for me.  Freezing the culture impacts cell viability to some extent, which varies depending on how fast it is frozen, what temperature it is maintained at, and for how long.  This viability impact cannot be calculated exactly for a number of reasons, so experimentation is needed to determine proper pitching rate as a culture ages to ensure consistency from one make to the next.   Therefore, freezing a mother culture only introduces another confusing variable to my beginning cheesemaking efforts.
- A fresh culture has a very limited shelf-life, about one week for most consistent results.  Using the same fresh non-frozen culture for more than one make is not practical for me.  As a beginning cheesemaker, I am making a different type of cheese each time, often using completely different cultures.  Since I'm not repeating makes of the same cheese yet, consistency from make to make is not relevant, but culture viability over time is.  I cannot use all of a fresh non-frozen mother culture before it spoils or becomes non-viable.  Making the mother culture would waste my time and money.
- Saving 20 to 30 minutes of ripening time per make is inconsequential at my rate of cheesemaking.  Since I am unlikely to be able to use a mother culture more than once, the potential time saved in the make is more than negated by the amount of time I'll spend making the mother culture.

Here are some good threads that helped me understand mother cultures and why they are not a good fit for me, and probably not a good fit for most low volume beginning cheesemakers, despite the frequent recommendations to the contrary:

Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets? (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,6166.0.html)
Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5165.0.html)
Okay, My Head Is Spinning (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5691.0.html)
Propagating Starter Cultures (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2110.0.html)

Strangely enough, those threads tend to promote the idea that using mother cultures is an advantage for anyone.  But a careful reading of the threads clearly show that it is not.  Mother cultures make more sense if you are going to use the same fresh unfrozen one for more than one consecutive make over a very short period of time.  Otherwise, they just take more time than they save, waste ingredients due to spoilage, and introduce other variables that are difficult to compensate for, especially for a beginner like me. 
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on May 08, 2012, 07:41:01 AM
What a great response.

Thanks very much.

NVD.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on May 08, 2012, 02:14:25 PM
Paul, always a workflow/time/cost tradeoff for cultures. Bulk cultures do speed up the make, but they take time to make and maintain. A useful middle ground is the primer approach where you culture a little from powder the night before and then dump it in with the morning milk. If it saves you time in the make (net gain for time saved from less ripening wait vs time it takes to prep and culture the milk), then I say go for it. Moneywise, it is cheaper, too.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: linuxboy on May 08, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
Caseus, love your thoughts. One thing I don't see addressed directly is the approach that I, Sailor, and others advocate. Specifically, primer cultures. This is when you take some DVI and culture in sterile milk for a one-off. No mother-child transfer, so pure aseptic technique, no freezer, etc. Just a way to stretch the DVI and get the same active culture blend as with a traditional mother approach. it's a hybrid.

So I disagree that it doesn't make sense for smaller producers. I think it depends on your setup and workflow. For those who make yogurt, for example, and who have an incubator or adjustable dehydrator, it's super easy to add in some powder and culture it like yogurt or buttermilk at the appropriate temps. If someone doesn't have a good setup, of course it might not make sense to create one all for making a cheese 2x/month. Just depends on the total situation. Tends to work best for makes at least 1x/week, preferably at least 2x.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Boofer on May 08, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
Excellent dissertation, Caseus. I'm really wondering if the thrust of your dialogue is driven by self-doubts.

I have used, and still use 1/4 tsp of this or that dry culture to fashion a cheese. I resisted mother cultures for a couple years and only recently jumped in. I don't make that many cheeses that frequently. That was my justification for not using MCs. Then I found I had several bags of culture that were a little shy of product and felt I needed to either stretch it or reorder. I also liked the idea of increasing the pitch rate.

I looked over the types of cheeses I had been making and reasoned that there were several cultures that could be used across a lot of the cheese styles that I had been doing. Minor tweaks in the process combined with rind treatments would create still allow me to make my cheeses. Following Sailor's photo essay, these would all be frozen as ice cubes and vacuum-sealed as individual make quantities. Per his dosage chart, I would need 8 ounces for a 4 gallon make. Each cube is one ounce. There are 16 cubes in a tray. That means I get two makes out of each tray. 8 cubes to a bag, clearly labeled with the culture's name.

So what cultures would I select to accommodate my cheese styles? I had to have some standard mesophilic and thermophilic as a baseline. I would do Aromatic B for the meso and TA-61 for the thermo. I wanted to do a couple more with a little more complexity. My choice here was Alp D which I have only recently discovered and really like. This is a pretty busy culture mix. It has a majority of meso with some LH and ST. It's what was called for in my Maasdam (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9402.0.html) make. Then I decided that MA4001 (LL+LC+LD+ST) should be in this. Later on I added Kazu, which gives me LL+LC+LD+LH.

The convenience of simply zipping open a vacuum bag and extracting the cubes for a make is rationale enough for me to continue along the MC path. The process effort, time, sanitation, and expense to put those cubes in the freezer is minimal. It extends the use of expensive dry cultures that I purchase and saves me a little extra cash that I can use to buy the things that I cannot MC and freeze, such as PS, KL71, SR3, GEO, PC, rennet, etc.

The last cheese I did was a Cheddar (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9589.msg69722.html#msg69722). I had made a fresh batch of Alp D the night before, so I used 8 ounces of fresh MC and froze the rest as cubes.

Folks doing this have to decide which way to go and what works for them. You go one way...I go another.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Tomer1 on May 08, 2012, 02:42:29 PM
I use a a water filled electric fryer to incubate the cultures :)   
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 08, 2012, 04:58:38 PM
I make a fair amount of cheese - 4 to 5 batches of 37 gallons each every week, sometimes more. I have been making Mother Cultures (actually Primer Cultures) for over a year with the same small packets of DVI. (THAT's a huge cost savings). Since those packets are now well over a year old, they are degraded and will give inconsistent results when used as a DVI. The bacteria may be 50% dead and give only 50% of the expected results. Think about making bread with really old yeast, and the dough won't rise properly. If you are using DVI then you have no idea how to compensate. With MCs, it doesn't matter if they are 50% dead. The viable 50% will still grow out properly to create a perfect MC.

Cost and time savings aside, I am firmly convinced that I get better cheese and much more predictable results with Primer Cultures. To me it has just become a part of the normal cheese making process.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Caseus on May 08, 2012, 08:28:09 PM
linuxboy, you're right, I lumped the primer culture approach into mother cultures in general.  But reconsidering it the way you and Sailor suggest, the primer culture approach could work for me if I can make only as much as I'm going to use the next day.   Maybe I can find skim milk in pints.  If so, I will try it.

Boofer, a large part of my conclusions were based on not wishing to freeze culture since that introduces another variable that I can't control for.  I hadn't considered small-volume single-shot primer cultures, though, which is making me rethink. 

 
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 08, 2012, 09:08:05 PM
Caseus - you can use NFD dry milk powder in any quantity that you like. In some ways that's better because the end product is not as thick.

Fresh is more active, but freezing is no more of a variable than using DVI that is losing it's potency. As Boofer has done, just match the volume of the cubes to the volume of your milk, generally around 1.5% depending on the cheese. Thawing is no different than having to wait on the bacteria to "wake up" when using DVI.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Caseus on May 08, 2012, 10:06:24 PM
Thank you Sailor.  Now I'm really beginning to feel like I was far too hasty in my initial assessment.  But that is what's great about a forum and a community.  No one has to figure out everything on his own, and even those of us with thick heads can eventually see the light.

If I can use nonfat dry milk powder, then I can mix up exactly how much I need, and waste and freshness are no longer issues. 

And I see what you mean about the uncertainty of using frozen cubes being no worse than the uncertainty that comes of imprecise fractional teaspoon measurements of cultures of potentially questionable viability.

How about that?  I've completely reversed my understanding of the pros and cons based upon your, linuxboy's, and Boofer's comments.   Thank you all for that.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 08, 2012, 10:09:15 PM
You can also use milk that is out of date because you are going to completely sterilize it anyway. Good use for old milk from the frig.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on May 08, 2012, 11:31:30 PM
Yes that all makes sense Pav.  At this stage I only pre-ripen my cultures for 60mins prior to use which speeds things up a bit.  I like the idea of ripening overnight though.  I think I make too many types of cheeses to make mother cultures for them all.

If I ripen overnight I guess I just use the same bulk starter volumes that I would for mother cultures?  In a sense it is just a mother culture that is consumed entirely in one go.

NVD.
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: Boofer on May 08, 2012, 11:37:54 PM
If I ripen overnight I guess I just use the same bulk starter volumes that I would for mother cultures?  In a sense it is just a mother culture that is consumed entirely in one go.
In Sailor's terms, that's a Primer Culture.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
Post by: NimbinValley on May 08, 2012, 11:39:18 PM
Primer it is then!