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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Cheese Head on December 28, 2008, 07:40:42 PM
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Today I start my fifth Camembert making based on the recipe here (http://www.cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Camembert.htm), (interspersed with helping daughter #2 paint her bedroom), my other Camembert records here:
- #1 Records (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,271.0.html)
- #2 Records (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,274.0.html)
- #3 Records (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,298.0.html)
- #4 Records (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,350.0.html)
MAKING
- Dec 28, 2008, 1:00PM: Poured 1 US gallon/3.8 litres of store bought pasteurized homogenized whole cow's milk from fridge into stockpot on smallest gas burner ring on stove. As milk pasteurized, to standardize, added and stirred in 1/2 teaspoon diluted CaCl2. Measured temperature at 6 C/44 F and pH at 6.0, turned gas on low to warm milk.
- Dec 28, 2008, 1:20PM: Milk at correct temp, turned off heat, measured pH at 6.05, stirred in 1/8 teaspoon Danisco's Choozit Brand Mesophilic Starter Culture MM100, covered and set aside. Similar to Cartierusm, weighed 250 dose bag of culture a 87 grams, assumed bag 7 grams, 80 gr / (250 doses x 10 litre) = 0.032 gram/litre or 0.12 gram per US gallon, no fine enough scale, so just assumed 1/8 teaspoon was plenty!
- Dec 28, 2008, 3:30PM: Measured temp at 87 F/31 C and pH at 5.93, rewarmed to 96 F/36 C, diluted 1/16" teaspoon powdered rennet in 1/4 cup water, trickled into milk while stirring with whisk thoroughly. Covered and set aside for curd to set.
- Dec 28, 2008, 4:40PM: Found very strong curd set with whey already being expelled, measured temp at 94 F/34 C and pH at 5.53, cut curd into diamonds, covered to let rest and expel more whey.
- Dec 28, 2008, 5:00PM: Ladled curds and whey into 2 hoops on mats on draining board, too much, had to wait 10 min to allow whey to be expelled before all fit into just 2 hoops.
- Dec 28, 2008, 6:00PM, 7:00PM, 8:00PM, 9:30PM: Turned hoops.
- Dec 29, 2008, 6:00AM: Turned hoops.
- Dec 29, 2008, 7:00AM: Removed from hoops, patted with ~5 grams salt each. Sprinkled with few spores of Danisco brand Penicillum Candidum VS (mild), placed in cooler drawer of household fridge to mature.
AGING
- Dec 30, 2008, 8:00AM: Day 2, checked humidity and turned 2 Camemberts.
- Dec 31, 2008, 8:00AM: Day 3, wiped out free water, changed mats, and turned 2 Camemberts, no bloom yet.
- Jan 1, 2009, 8:00AM: Day 4, turned 2 Camemberts, no bloom yet.
- Jan 2, 2009, 8:00AM: Day 5, turned 2 Camemberts, no bloom yet.
- Jan 3, 2009, 8:00AM: Day 6, turned 2 Camemberts, no bloom yet.
- Jan 15, 2008, 6:00PM: Day 18, still no mold growth, could be due to very cold fridge or as not enough P Candid um, see picture below.
- Jan 22, 2009, 7:00PM: Day 25, small area with mold, most not, gave up on household fridge as too cold and dry for mold to grow, placed in plastic box and put in garage as last chance.
- Jan 24, 2008, 11:00AM: Day 27, excellent mold growth, see picture below!
- Jan 31, 2008, 1:00PM: Day 34, cut Camembert #1 and ate for French Ploughman's Lunch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploughman's_lunch), cheese not ripe enough yet, see picture below. Placed second in cool garage to age at warmer temp than household fridge.
- Feb 8, 2008, 8:00AM: Day 42, found garage warm @ 70 F/21 C (as south breeze off of Gulf of Mexico) and that Camembert #2 had leaked a small amount of cheese, see picture below. Placed in cold household fridge as definitely ready to eat and don't want it for breakfast.
- Feb 9, 2008, 6:00PM: Day 43, let Camembert rise to room temperature for dinner desert, cut Camembert #2 through middle, found still immature and small moist around edge, cut near edge, found ripe/moist.
NOTES
- Mold development is highly dependant on aging room/Cheese Cave's humidity & temperature; in very dry household fridge for weeks, minimal mold, in own plastic box for higher hummidity and in garage, lots of mold in days.
- Camembert's maturity is highly dependant on aging room/Cheese Cave's temperature; in very cold household fridge for weeks, minimal aging, in warm garage for 1 week, fully aged!
- Household fridge's vegetable drawer is not a good Cheese Cave for Camembert's early aging stage, as no normal significant mold bloom after 24 days, as 1) low humidity (even though added water almost daily), and 2) temperature too cold.
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Pictures #2 . . .
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Pictures #3 . . .
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Fingers crossed. Hope it works this time.
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Hope so, was just my forgetfulness last time, over heated the curds and forgot to turn often enough, duh! Was still very edible :D.
What was different this time is the very strong curd I got after adding rennet. The only thing significantly different was I used Choozit MM100 Mesophilic manufactured culture (http://cheeseforum.org/Making/Culture_Manufacturers_Products.htm#Choozit_MM100_MM101_BT001_BT002) rather than my buttermilk homemade culture, maybe that batch wasn't ripe enough. The stronger curd and thus cut curds, also resulted in non-uniform on sides Camembert when renoved from hoops >:(.
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CH I have had that on almost every batch of brie or camembert that I have made. I found that by the time the mould grows that most of this is covered beautifully.
Remember my little saying; Mould covers a multitude of sins!
Rather than just dumping the curd into the moulds, I now try and place them so that there are minimal spaces on the sides. Doesn't eliminate them all but it helps.
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Tea, I know both your and my recipes call for and we both do cut the curds, but when I did some research on making Camembert they didn't have cut curds in BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A823367) or Camembert-Country page (http://www.camembert-country.com/cwp/cwp_fabe.htm) or Camembert-France (http://www.camembert-france.com/manuca.html). So I'm wondering if maybe we shouldn't cut the curds and instead gently ladle the curd into the hoops and let gravity aid in whey separation?
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Ch I had to smile when I read your post. You and I are on the same wave length with this. ;)
Have another look at the St Maure cheese recipe and note the pics that I have posted. This cheese is made like that with no cutting of the curd, just laddling in after setting and ripening over night. When doing this my thoughts were running in the same direction, "why can't you do this for brie or camembert"? So I have decided that I am going to trial this recipe using cow's milk, before I try another brie/camembert and see what the difference is. From there I was going to start experiementing on those recipes and see what changes could be made.
What do you think?? Worth a try?
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Agreed, next Camembert I make I won't cut the cheese (in making).
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Question to others Camembert makers:
See my OP above, in this batch I salted immediately after removing from hoops and then puffed a few spores onto the cheese immediately after salting.
I'm aging in very cold fridge veg drawer, so I expect slower to develop, but they are 7 days old an no visible mold growth yet. Should I re-spore and also add Geo and why or just wait?
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Is very cold below 45 F? I have not made a Camembert but I had the same problem and let my Saint Mauer go longer and it did develope mold. However, I add spores to the milk at start up. It is my understanding the Geo helps prevent slip especially in goat milk, so I now use a little geo and it has reduced the incidents of slip.
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Thanks RRR, our fridge is about 42F, so guess I'll have to wait longer, my previous batches bloomed fine, but at warmer temp.
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RRR not sure I am understanding what you are meaning by "slip". Could you explain please.
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Tea,
"Slip" is also what is called toad skin or frog skin on a camembert or brie. It is when after the mold forms, you disrupt (slip) the fuzz from the surface when turning or handling. I've also read that Geo will keep this from happening so I've added it from my very first batch of Camembert. As yet I have never slipped the fuzz off of one of my wheels.
John: As for how long it will take for the mold to form...... I've never seen mold any sooner than 7 days. I always put my Camembert in a wine fridge that runs between 44 - 48 degrees F. I've heard of many people who see fuzz on day six but I never have. In fact it's usually day 10 before I can truly see what I refer to as a decent covering.
Dave
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Good heavens, I usually just about have a complete coverage by day 3!! mmm I think that proves that I definately do not have these at a cool enough temp.
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You know Tea, it could be that I'm keeping mine too cool for the mold formation stage.
Maybe I should leave mine at a warmer temperture until the mold forms and then wrap and move them to our regular household fridge to age.
This is such a new cheese to me that I honestly can't say what the proper procedure is. Looks like some experimentation in my future.
Dave
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Slip can also occur without any disturbance of the rind. The rind simply slips off the core of the cheese. It has something to do with the composition of the milk. My first Mauers consistently slipped until I started to add Geo.
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RRR thanks for this. I think I will invest in some Geo before I still experiementing with this cheese again.
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Catastrophe :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[!!!!
OK maybe not that bad, see above last photo, after 24 days aging, minimal mold growth (my batch #2 had good coat after day #4) due I think to humidity too low and temp too low. Guess I'm going to have to follow recipe which means coming up with a proper Cheese Cave!
Even though I've tried 5 different systems (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,197.0.html) >:(.
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OK John, I've gone back and had a look at the photo's, but I am missing what the catastrophe is ???
Is it the brown marks on the cheese or what! Sorry, feeling a bit dense that I am missing something.
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Sorry, the problem is no normal white bloom then. Since then I stuck it in tupperware (keep the roaches away) in our warm garage and after two days, reasonable warm coat, another two days it should be great. After that, problems as no special Camembert Papers, any advice appreciated, ie tin foil, saran wrap etc.
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If by saran wrap you mean plastic wrap, then my vote is no, as this doesn't allow for the ammonia gasses to escape as the cheese ripens, and causes off/strong flavours.
Wrap in a paper that will breath, then in alfoil.
HTH
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RRR,
The slip you are referring to is is often caused by a proliferation of Geotrichcum sp. that is frequently a result of too high a temp in the cave during ripening and not enough salt. There are many strains of Geotrichum candidum , some of which contribute to casein proteolysis and ripening and others that are more deleterious in there actions causing the dreaded Peau De Crapaud (toadskin). The addition of Geotrichum candidum that you buy from a cheese making supply house is a good strain that will outcompete the natural strains that are giving you trouble.
CC
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Team
Thanks for the excellent thoughts on slip, I have never had that problem but I do have some Geotrichum candidum that I have yet to use.
(Excusez my highschool french: Et voilà! (http://bab.la/dictionary/english-french/Et+voil%C3%A0+!.html), ma petite Camemberts, ils avoir une beau pelage blanc!
See picture in original post after 2 days in garage.
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Just posted pic of one of these cheese we cut last week for lunch above, not yet ripe enough.
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All, as my first cut Camembert was not ripe enough as aged in household soda pop/beer/wine fridge at ~42F, so I moved the second to he garage in small plastic container to age more rapidly.
After 1 week it did! This morning garage was @ 70 F/21 C, see picture above, sprung a leak.
My key learning's are:
- Mold development is highly dependant on aging room/Cheese Cave's humidity & temperature; in very dry household fridge for weeks, minimal mold, in own plastic box for higher humidity and in warmer garage, lots of mold in days.
- Camembert's maturity is highly dependant on aging room/Cheese Cave's temperature; in very cold household fridge for weeks, minimal aging (basically suspended animation, which is how I believe Camembert can be kept in store fridges for ages), in warm garage for 1 week, fully aged!
- I need a proper Cheese Cave.
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John,
I think I've found (and I think that Tea might agree with this) is that aging slowly is the key with this cheese.
Upon advice from a member on this forum (FineWino) I now put my camemberts into the regular household fridge as soon as I wrap them up. This is usually 10 days after the make.
I opened a few examples of my last batch after, 3, 4 & 6 weeks and each one of them had a very liquid texture near the outer rind while the center was still quite firm.
After seeing one of Tea's posts where she had let one of her cheeses go something like 9 weeks I decided to open my last example at 8 weeks and the texture was surprisingly good throughout the wheel.
Btw....this was aged throughout at approx. 38 - 41 degrees F.
I don't know what would cause the cheese to "firm up" near the outer edges after even more aging but that's exactly what appears to have happened.
I'm considering opening my first cheese (from my next batch) at the 7 week mark and then cracking the other three at the 8, 9 & 10 week mark.
Btw..I've decided this batch will be Cambozola.
After the relative success I saw on the last wheel I cut I want to give this one a try.
Good luck with yours and I'll keep you updated on my next attempt.
I plan on giving this a try next weekend.
Dave
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Dave
Very envious of you going for Cambozola, I should try as well, recipe here (http://cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Cambozola.htm).
On Camembert, I agree that you could age longer at colder temperatures, but from the research I've done (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,225.0.html), others don't take that long:
- Camembert-Country.com (http://www.camembert-country.com/cwp/cwp_fabe.htm) says affiné (refined) at 3 weeks and "à point" at 4-5 weeks.
- BBC.co.uk article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A823367) says ready to go to market at 3 weeks but can be ripened for another 2-3 weeks.
- Camembert-France.com (http://www.camembert-france.com/manuca.html) says making C tkes about 3 weeks and that cheeses are packaged at ~12 days.
None of them are talking about 8-10 weeks, but to be fair those guides are probably using unpasteurized milk and the aging process appears to be very temperature and probably a bunch of other criteria dependant. So in summary the question is after mold blossom, should they be aged warm and fast, or cool and slow, or cold and very slowly?
Guess we are all finding out as we open our cheeses and thus get a bigger data base of each others results ;D.
My problem is 1) no wrapping papers (some on order) thus hard to get humidity right for long term for such a small humidity sensitive cheese, and 2) no good cheese cave, I'm currently back to Igloo picnic cooler.
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Hi John, and at the moment, I have to agree with Dave. Ripening these at a colder and slower pace, seems to be working better for us homecheese makers, especially when keeping them at what is considered the "optimal" ripening temp is hit and miss.
I am also wondering if they need to be left for the ten days to form the mould, as mine are definately covered around day 5. WHen I next make this I am going to put them in the fridge when covered and see if that also makes a difference.
And yes, for some reason they go runny before firming up again. I saw that with the St Maure batch, and it really surprised me.
Anyway still got a long way to go before I really understand what is going on in these cheeses.
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OK, for dinner dessert, let this batch Camembert #2 (that leaked) rise to room temp and cut through middle, found firm except around edge and little around on top and bottom. The cut near edge and much moister.
Tastes great, not strong Camembert flavour, rind a little thick, probably as I've let this one dry out too much.
See picture #12 above.
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Looks good John, how does it taste?
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Bit chalky texture where not very moist and tatstes good but little of camembert flavour as not mature and very slightly bitter in first bite, then very nice.
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Did you eat them at room temp? Try again in about 5 days. I buy one brand that is creamy and chalky at the same time and is good. After opening I try again at the 5 day mark and it's much more creamy.
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I don't know John, that cheese looks pretty impressive to me. At least you are able to eat your's.
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John I'm sure you've mentioned it before but I missed it and now I'm gearing up to make camembert. Where did you get the drain mat you are using, the piece on top, the finer mesh one? Thanks.
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Gang, this is a serious situation....
Code Red!
Carter is "gearing up" to make Camembert, so if you have ANY plans of making Camembert over the next year, GET YOUR CULTURES BOUGHT NOW!
Also, if you are low on Camembert molds, NOW is the time to buy them!
Once Carter makes a few 15 gallon batches of Camembert and clears out every cheesemaking supply site, on the net, we will all be out of luck!
Dave
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lol
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Thanks Dave I needed that, I laughed pretty hard, I think I wet myself, oh no that's just whey.
Actually I think I'll be making 2-5 gallons at the most, more than likely 2 gallon batches as they're are going to be regulation of 4". But I'll be making them every other week at least so I have a constant supply of camembert. Since they'll only be 2 gallon batches I think I'll use the good milk as it's only $6.60 a gallon.
Dave you surprise me I'm going to be making my camembert molds.
Now to the part that ticks me off. Retailers of P. Candidum say use 1/8 tsp. for 1-5 gallons, well that's BS, that's a huge difference, I know they just want you to use it up and buy more. But here's what I've calculated a 10 Dose pack contains about 2 tsp. So one does is .2 tsp. So this entire pack with their calculations can be used for 80 gallons of milk. Most professional sites and recipes call for 1 DOSE per 117 gallons of milk. So this entire pack really should be used for 1170 GALLONS OF MILK!!! This seems way too far off I'll be calling the manuf. on Tuesday and find out the skinny.
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I'd be very interested in your dosing findings as well. I was wondering the same thing when I added my 1/16 tsp to the last ONE gallon batch. This was per the recommendations on the package (typed one, not manufacturer). Seemed like an aweful lot for 2 small cheeses!
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So I called some manuf and found out the stores are indeed padding what is neede to sell culutres.
For Camembert use P. Candidum at 1-2 Doses of VS strain per 1000 lbs. milk (117 gallons.)
and Geo. Candidum at 1/5 dose (one fifth of a dose) per 1000 lbs. Milk (117 gallons.
So take your package let's say a 10 dose pack, weight the contents only and the weight by 10. For example it weights 1.2 grams 1.2/10=.12grams. The take .12 and divide it by 117 and you get .00102 grams per gallon, it's a very small amount that's probably why they tell you to use between 1/16 tsp. and 1/8 tsp. That would be too small for my micro scale to measure. The manuf said you can use more it's not going to hurt. So I'll pick up a set of small measureing spoons and use 1/16 tsp of P. Candidum and half of a 1/32 tsp of G. Candidum. That is just an idea when I recieve my cultures I'll weight them and see.
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Good to know. Thanks Carter for the leg work on that. I picked up these measuring spoons at my local Ace Hardware. They should work out well for this application. The Dash is 1/8 tsp, Pinch is 1/16 tsp and Smidgen is 1/32 tsp.
(http://www.gardenshoponline.com/catalog/images/kitchen_shop/dpsmeasuringspoons.jpg)
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Carter,
If you really want to save on cultures you can expand the culture for a while after you rehydrate, before you add to your milk. If you really want to get anal we could do some dilution plating at different times after inoculation and get some cheap and easy growth curves for guidance.
CC
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Which cultures are you talking about Captain? The molds?
Ryan, I just bought the same ones at BBB for $2.50. Of course it doesn't say what they actually are and even though Google says a smidge and pinch is that I couldn't trust them. So I took water and my microscale and did some test. You're correct for a cheap $3 we got 1/8, 1/16 and 1/32. Sweet.
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Carter,
You can expand either bacterial or fungal cultures. You do however want to start with a pure cultures as in a mixed culture you can have one species out compete another.
CC
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Hey Chili is that where my spoons got to. Been looking everywhere for them. :D