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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Tea on October 19, 2009, 08:28:29 PM
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I am recording this here for myself, as much as anyone else.
As I am sure I have recorded my brie recipe before I won't do that again. Added geo this time as well as it is supposed to help with rind slip. Did everything, including the curd washing as per the recipe. Decided to divide between two 8in brie moulds, and the result was two 1 - 1 1/2inch thick cheeses. Left over night to drain, and brined in a 20% salt solution with a speck of white mould powder for 2 1/2 hours. Drained for an hour or so, and added the ash coating.
Probably the cheeses could have been a little drier before adding the ash, and I live and learn on that issue. The ash should have come with a warning, "Caution: ash cloud ahead". Man this stuff is fine. Anyway, the cheeses have dried overnight, and are now ready to go into the moist environ for 8-10 days.
Fingers crossed.
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They look very nice Tea. The ask looks to be as fine as talcum powder. Bet that made a mess huh?
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Tea,
I notice in the picture that you have some sort of gauze-type material on top of the cheese mat. Can you tell me what it is and where you source it from?
Thanks,
Alan
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Good morning Alan, the mesh is plastic cheese matting that I purchased from www.cheeselinks.com.au (http://www.cheeselinks.com.au) by the meter. I just cut it up into sizes that I need. I have found that the cheese tend to stick to the bamboo mats, so I am seeing how it goes with the plastic matting between.
Debi I think it is finer than talc. Very silky to the touch. Can't wait for the white mould to grow through, so I don't get ash on me everytime I touch them.
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Day 3 and this is what I found this morning. So good so far.
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Looking good Tea!
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Ok so just a few observations on this cheese. When I went to pour the curd into the mould I decided that the curd was going to be too much for one mould and divided into two. Ash of course draws out moisture, among other things, and I think that now the resulting cheese is going to be too dry, as they have reduced in thickness quite a lot, and they feel hard when turning. So my thought that the cheese should have dried more before applying ash, I think at this stage is right, as I think that additional moisture on the cheese has caused too much ash to adhere.
I am going to let these complete aging, as it is still a learning process for me, but I think that I will remake this, using all the curd for one thicker cheese, which with the addition of ash, should be alright.
Anyway here is a pic of the brie today. A couple more days and they will be wrapped and transfer to the fridge for final aging.
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Hi Tea
Now I’ll preface this by saying that I haven’t made enough of this cheese to be able to make a definitive comment about the process – perhaps 5 or 6 batches. But, I think you might be surprised at the result. Those pictures look pretty much as mine did each time I have made it.
I do, however, leave it a bit longer than an hour to dry, and I’m afraid I’m a bit slack on record keeping at that stage of things – but I usually wait until there is evidence of drying - that the curd isn’t too wet, but damp enough to allow the ash to adhere. So time-wise, perhaps 2-3 hours, depending upon the weather. It was very dry here last week when I made them, so they dried quickly.
I wrapped my ash brie last Friday and they were still a bit hard but I expect them to soften over the next few days. They had shrunk a little, but the degree was barely perceptible. With respect to your comment about the thickness of the ash – how much are you talking about? More than 2-3mm?
When I do this one, I always use camembert moulds rather than the larger brie mould, so perhaps that may be a factor?????
B
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Hi Bella, and thanks for your thoughts. I wouldn't think that the ash was even 2-3mm, as I tapped off most of the loose ash. I decided to use the traditional brie mould as it is larger than the cam, but I am making a Blue/White cheese at the moment and I have used the cam moulds for them, and made the cheese thicker, as I am wanting to ash a couple of them for experiement.
I do hope that the cheese soften's up as it ages, as it feels quite hard at the moment.
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I have been thinking about your reply and my answer, and maybe there is the perception that it is thick because it is BLACK and covers so well. I guess when I cover the next lot of cheese I will find out.
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OK Tea
That doesn't sound to me as though the ash is too thick, and your photos certainly suggest that the thickness was about right.
I take the point re moulds - it is always a juggling act for me too, as with so much milk, I have to make a cheese at least every second day. It was every day until I stopped afternoon milking. I just couldn't keep up (and nor could the mould supply!!).
A blue/white combination with ash sounds interesting - I look forward to your results. I haven't had any success with that type of cheese and after several failed attempts, have abandoned it, even though one of my friends really loves that type of cheese.
B
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Bella I am interested to know where/why your attempts at a blue/white have failed? What pit falls should I be aware of?
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Hi Tea
I wish I knew the answer to that question, for if it were forthcoming, then perhaps I would persist with this one. Prior to my getting into this 'habit', it was my favourite cheese - I could never resist a blue or white Castello at the supermarket!
The results were always inedible - and it has to be said that they were all pretty much in the early days of my cheesemaking, so perhaps there was something there that I did not recognise out of ignorance. As I recall it, the principal issue was the ammonia smell of an overripe cheese, but there much earlier in the process than the recipes might have suggested. I store my cheeses in a wine fridge, so the temperature should not have been an issue.
But the ripening process is something that has caught my 'eye' of late. Whenever I make a cheese, I keep records of due dates (when making 4 or 5 cheeses per week, it is necessary to keep track of that!), but what seems to be happening is that the due date is out by a bit, depending upon the cheese. My camemberts and bries are ready a few days early. I make Reblochon and Raclette for my neighbour and they are always ready early, sometimes more than a week. The quality of the cheese is not compromised, so perhaps it is something about this warm climate of ours that affects the cheese differently. And this is for cheeses made through our recent winter!
And perhaps I should re-visit blue-white combinations with that observation in mind! It's been perplexing, but I have simply turned away from it by not making those cheeses again.
So my suggestion to you would be to watch for signs of ripening about a week before the recipe suggests.
Best of luck with it and let us know what transpires.
B
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Ok many thanks for that Bella. I also have had problems with cam/brie ripening early and for me, once the mould is formed, I transfer into the fridge to help slow this process down.
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Ok back to this thread. This morning I decided that one of the cheeses is not going to grow any mould on the sides, (I think it is to dry), while the thicker one is completely covered. So I wrapped in the special wraps and have put them in the fridge.
Just another couple of things that I noted with this, is that I didn't get the ammonia smell at all. Whether that has something to do with the ash or not I don't know, but this is a first for me. Also I soaked the bamboo mats in a saturated brine solution, then rubbed them well with salt before I used them, and I had, also for the first time, no unwanted mould forming of the mats.
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I don't know for sure as I have never used ash but carbon is a good filter maybe the hints od ammonia are being filtered by the carbon dust?
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Maybe that the reason, I don't know. As I am doing the Blue/White with some that don't have the ash, it will be interesting to see whether one has a stronger smell then the others.
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Felt the edges of these yesterday, and they are starting to feel a little soft. More waiting.......
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I also have had problems with cam/brie ripening early and for me, once the mould is formed, I transfer into the fridge to help slow this process down.
Tea ~ I've also had that experience. Have you found that lowering the temp helps slow down the aging?
Also, I did some cams with ash a couple of weeks ago and I'm finding that the skin is now slipping. I'm not sure why...maybe too moist? I would think that the ash would keep it relatively dry.
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Yes I transfer to the fridge to slow down the final ripening stages. It might take a little longer, but I find I have more control of the cheese.
Yes ash is supposed to help draw moisture from the cheese, which I think is my problem with the brie, they are too dry. I have only done two batches with the ash, so I haven't yet encounted this problem. I would say though, that the curds were not drained for long enough, if slippage is occuring and you have also used ash.
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An update on this cheese; I cut a small wedge from one and although the paste looks and smells wonderful, I do think they are too dry to ripen any further. I am though going to leave longer just to see how they develop.
Next time I make this I am going to leave as one cheese and not divide into two.
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Tea,
Did you have interior bluing on the sample wedge?
Just curious since I plan on giving this a try once the weather turns a bit colder here.
Dave
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Okay Tea.....I admit it, I'm sometimes dense...
I thought this was the white and blue thread and NOT the ash brie thread.
Forget I said anything. Act like I never posted. BUT...
If you did get bluing on this cheese let me know your secret. :)
Dave
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No saddly I didn't get any blueing on the brie either. I thought that this mould was supposed to be the killer of all moulds, and I just can't get it to grow. sigh I wish I could tell you my secret.
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I have two comments:
1. Castello is UHT and UF, so you will never duplicate it exactly at home.
2. For blue brie you need to grow the blue first for 3-5 days (don't add p. cand to the milk), then spray p. cand on and let the white grow. Be sure to pierce after ash has been applied.
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Many thanks Francois for this information. Next time I will leave before spraying, and I did pierce after ashing. Alex was saying that you should re-pierce a couple of times to encourage the holes to stay. Would you agree/advise that also?
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It wouldn't hurt but realize that the number of piercings corresponds directly to the amount of blue in the cheese. A blue brie is normnally quite lightly veined.
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I noticed that they didn't appear to have a lot of blue in them. When I cut into mine, there was no evidence that they had been pierced at all, which was why I was thinking that maybe a second piercing might encourage the holes to stay open long enough for the mould to grow.
Many thanks for your advice.
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Well I am back to trying this again. Made two 8in wheels again. Wanted to make one, as I think that they end up too thin, but I just couldn't get the curds into one mould. Over filled two mould actually. But as usual with this cheese, settled to around an inch thick. So they have been brined, and then I decided to put a little ash in the middle on one cheese, and put the other one on top. I am hoping that the two cheeses will meld together, sandwiching the ash in the middle, and thus, also giving me a thicker cheese.
That's the plan, though whether it will work or not, we will see. Have gone back to a humidity box, as I think it retains the moisture better, and thus a softer cheese, than leaving it open in a larger space. I am though, going to open the box every day, and make sure that I have a good transfer of air, in the hope of not getting too much of the dreaded ammonia smell.
Once again, fingers crossed. Will update pic later.
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I am though, going to open the box every day, and make sure that I have a good transfer of air, in the hope of not getting too much of the dreaded ammonia smell.
Good idea! The smell when I came back from vacation was awful! Luckily it went away after leaving them open - but I almost threw it away thinking there's no way that could dissipate!
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This is day 5 and the cheeses have melded together nicely, so that was a surprise, I didn't really think they would. Have been turning and airing everyday, to try and stop the rind sticking and ammonia smell. So far so good.
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Update again. Everything was going well with this cheese, although I noticed that while the sides were getting a beautiful covering of mould, the tops were not. It was growing, but just. Finally got to day 10, and wrapped in the special wraps for these cheeses, then put back into the cave for another week, before I transfered into the fridge for the remainder of aging.
I started to notice an off smell in the cave, so cleaned it out, checked the cheeses, and thought, that I had covered everything. The smell was getting worse and more offensive, and finally I noticed that the brie was looking moist through the paper. So unwrapped, and the top and bottom were covered in a pink mould, and the smell was horrible. The skin had also started to slip.
I decided to cut into it before I threw it, and the paste was looking beautiful and even smelt better. So really annoyed with myself that I have somehow introduced a contaminant into the cheese.
I also think that the cave got too warm on one occasion, so wondering if that was also my problem. Anyway, not going to do this again until the weather gets cooler, as it is stinking hot here at the moment.
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What was your temperature during the initial bloom stage?
Do you think that perhaps insufficient drainage may have released whey later which together with high temprature contributed to the incubation of the contaminant? ...also, just as the ash ionizes the surface and stabilize pH levels for the perfect and fast growth of P.Candidum, it may have helped the contaminant too. What do you think this contaminant may be?
I am aging 3 of these right now (2 goat's one cow's) without much problem, however I did notice it getting out of control in the goat's version and I think it has to do with improper initial curd drainage. (This is a test cheese anyway for a new recipe, if it doesn't work, oh well). I partially opened the aging box and refrigerated at lower temp for 24 hours, we are back in business.
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Sorry to hear your cheeses went south Tea they were looking very nice. I have very little experiance with this type of cheese but the one thing I did learn is these guys need to breathe! I found turn them often and letting fresh air get to them was critical to keep that awful smell at bay.
In the first batch I made it peelded off the slipped skin and let the cheeses redry and they grew a new skin and became eddible cheeses. Strange cheeses these are! ;)
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iratherfly I am not sure what the contaminant was, but I do think that the cave getting too warm was the culprit.
Deb I was airing the container every day and turning the cheeses daily too. There was no smell at all, and I had really thought that I had this won. It wasn't until 2-3 days after wrapping that the smell started. I did wonder about scraping off the offending layer and starting again, as I said earlier I am struggling to keep the cave cool anyway, as temps here are 35-38 most days.
I am encouraged by where I did get too with this cheese, and I will definately give this a go again once the weather starts to cool. For now I am going to concentrate on the filata cheeses.