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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Aging Cheese, Everything Except Caves => Topic started by: steffb503 on September 30, 2010, 07:09:54 PM
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Do I need to change anything when vacuum sealing instead of waxing.
I have been waxing but I am out of wax and it is very costly. I thought the vacuum sealer would be better.
Thanks
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Ive never done a comparison, but the food saver bags on a roll that I buy are not cheep. I think there around $35 a roll. The sure are convenient though. i use them often and don't ever do anything different then I would if I was waxing.
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You'll need to dry the cheese longer for vacuum sealing than for waxing, about 4-6 weeks, depending upon the moisture content of the cheese.
I really prefer vacuum sealing, as I never could keep the cheese from getting moldy under the wax.
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Ive never done a comparison, but the food saver bags on a roll that I buy are not cheep. I think there around $35 a roll. The sure are convenient though. i use them often and don't ever do anything different then I would if I was waxing.
It depends on what width bags and how long the roll is that you're talking about. Here's an offer on Ebay similar to what I found when I bought three 11"x50' rolls:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Roll-11x50-Mega-Rolls-FOODSAVER-Vacuum-Sealer-Bag-/270548155615?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3efded3cdf (http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Roll-11x50-Mega-Rolls-FOODSAVER-Vacuum-Sealer-Bag-/270548155615?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3efded3cdf)
I think it's worth the extra cost to secure my cheeses. I would agree with MrsKK about preventing the mold under the wax. Never had mold under the plastic. ;)
A year from now, I'll still be confident that the cheese inside is pristine. The downside, of course, is that the rind doesn't continue to develop and there's no air/gases exchange with the outside world (double-edged sword).
-Boofer-
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You say to dry it longer...
My colby recipe says air dry for 2-3 days. Are you saying I should air dry for longer prior to waxing? How do I know for how long?
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That's what most colby recipes do recommend and, honestly, I haven't quite got that one down yet, either. The colby I was successful with had been air dried for about a week (I'm slow to coat cheeses) and then I coated it with lard as a protectant. It was about 4 months later that my family gave me the vacuum sealer and the colby had developed some mold on it. I scraped the mold all off and vacuum sealed it.
Another colby that I made, I sealed up after a week. It turned pretty sour and there was a lot of moisture in the bag.
Does anyone have any practical solutions for this?
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Moisture in the bag means the cheese needed to dry longer and/or it was underpressed. Because there is residual whey in the cheese this can increase the acidity and leave a sour flavor. When you see this, unbag and let the cheese dry some more.
I try to go natural rind for 3-4 weeks on hard cheeses before bagging. This important time sets the stage for proteolysis and flavor development during aging. For lots of technical reasons (too early in the morning to elaborate) I feel that this makes a significantly better cheese. I air dry for 1-2 days at room temp to get dripping moisture out then I move it to the cave at 54F where the cooler air helps pull more moisture out. After 10-14 days, I rub down with olive oil to prevent cracking. I get virtually no mold growth using this procedure.
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I try to go natural rind for 3-4 weeks on hard cheeses before bagging. This important time sets the stage for proteolysis and flavor development during aging. For lots of technical reasons (too early in the morning to elaborate) I feel that this makes a significantly better cheese. I air dry for 1-2 days at room temp to get dripping moisture out then I move it to the cave at 54F where the cooler air helps pull more moisture out. After 10-14 days, I rub down with olive oil to prevent cracking. I get virtually no mold growth using this procedure.
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Would you follow this procedure for all hard cheeses?
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I'm afraid to answer. Somebody took one of my cheeses. :o
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Maybe someone pushed the wrong button by mistake?
Some cheese are drier by design and therefore even air dry somewhat faster. It also depends on the temperature and humidity in the drying room.
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So how do I know when to bag?
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See, the time in the cheese cave at 54 degrees is where I'm having problems, as I don't yet have a cheese cave...just a cabinet where I keep my cheeses in the wintertime when the room it is in stays cool. However, from April through October, I'm stuck with having the cheeses in the refrigerator.
I do have a freezer I can convert now, but need to save up the money for an external thermostat. That probably isn't in the works for some time yet, maybe next spring.
I've "cheesed" you, Sailor! You help me out many times and I haven't given you the proper feedback for it.
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Thank you Karen. Much appreciated.
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I appreciate all of your input here, Sailor. I've learned a lot from you!
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...and now I lost 2 more cheeses. What gives?
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Sailor, what is going on???? You have given me so much wonderful advice and knowledge in a very short amount of time. Every time I read something you've written I become a little smarter. I probably owe you 20 cheeses!
Christine
And, I love this thread, titled "One more vacuum sealing question.' Every time it comes up I have one more question!
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Moisture in the bag means the cheese needed to dry longer and/or it was underpressed. Because there is residual whey in the cheese this can increase the acidity and leave a sour flavor. When you see this, unbag and let the cheese dry some more.
I try to go natural rind for 3-4 weeks on hard cheeses before bagging. This important time sets the stage for proteolysis and flavor development during aging. For lots of technical reasons (too early in the morning to elaborate) I feel that this makes a significantly better cheese. I air dry for 1-2 days at room temp to get dripping moisture out then I move it to the cave at 54F where the cooler air helps pull more moisture out. After 10-14 days, I rub down with olive oil to prevent cracking. I get virtually no mold growth using this procedure.
Does the size of your cheese wheel matter? If yes do you have some recommended guidelines for smaller/larger wheels.
Not sure who is taking your cheeses away, but you are way overdue for one from me.:)
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Smaller cheeses are much harder to control. I would follow the same basic procedure, but things tend to happen a little quicker with smaller cheeses. The important thing is for the cheese to expel all excess whey before bagging.
To me one of the biggest problems with small cheeses is loss from rind. If you make a one pound cheese that has a 1/4" rind, that's a HUGE loss compared to the same rind on a 6 pound cheese. To me the loss on a small wheel is unacceptable. Bagging early keeps the rind edible without the proportional loss. As a compromise, going natural rind for 2-4 weeks and then bagging allows the cheese to expel moisture, exchange natural gases, and complete complex processes naturally at the most important time of development.
I miss my cheeses. :(
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OK, I'm going to have to ask. I searched the site and can't figure out this cheese thing. How does one gain or lose cheeses? I'd give you a cheese! If I could.
Susan
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To me one of the biggest problems with small cheeses is loss from rind. If you make a one pound cheese that has a 1/4" rind, that's a HUGE loss compared to the same rind on a 6 pound cheese. To me the loss on a small wheel is unacceptable.
This is one reason I am gearing up to make single 10kg kadova wheels when I make goudas and other cheeses.
I make this size now, just would rather use the Kadova instead of my SS mould.
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OK, I'm going to have to ask. I searched the site and can't figure out this cheese thing. How does one gain or lose cheeses? I'd give you a cheese! If I could.
Susan
[Thumbs Up] gives a cheese, while [Thumbs Down] takes away a cheese. It is a really good method (if used properly) to give feedback to other members when they are being particularly helpful or supportive, or to give negative feedback when someone is being rude and obnoxious.
As Sailor has always been a gentleman and extremely helpful, I can only guess that someone doesn't know what they are doing.
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I make this size now, just would rather use the Kadova instead of my SS mould.
Why? Is it just the look or is there some other reason(s)?
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In comparison, I prefer the rind formed by a kadova.
I currently have many smaller kadova moulds. (450g and 1kg).
I want to consolidate to a single kadova mould.
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Wayne - I have settled in to making 8" wheels. I do 35 gallons at a time and get 6 wheels of about 5.25 pounds each. When I do Alpines, I do 5 wheels of 6+ pounds for better eye formation. I want customers to buy entire wheels, so for me, this is entirely a marketing thing. I can sell a 5 pound wheel at $80 a lot easier than I can sell a 20 pound wheel at $320. That's why I decided on my 6 station gang press. The smaller wheels lend themselves better to spontaneous buying and I am promoting them as handmade personal wheels. So far, the restaurants seem to like the idea. For retail, I am going to be packaging an 8" wheel with 8 wedges of different cheeses as a party pack. These will be reassembled into an 8" wheel and vacuum packed onto a bamboo cutting board, ready to open for any event. I already have retailers asking for specific ethnic collections, like English, French, and Italian. I am looking for an Italian blue to round out my offering.
FYI - I am using Tomme molds with Plyban and never have any sticking. After the initial pressing, I remove the Plyban, flip the cheese and press for another 3-4 hours "naked" in the mold. Removes all the wrinkles. The flatter wheels store better than the rounded Gouda style Kadovas.
Another big advantage with the 8" wheels - they can still be easily vac bagged.
Thanks to those who have given me cheeses. It helps to know your appreciated. :)
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Wayne I agree with Sailor on the use of the plyban for the first press only. I tried one with no plyban on the first press and it makes like air bubbles around the sides and doesn't form nicely. After the first press with the plyban everything is smooth like a kadova mold. I've been doing this for about 2 years now and it works very well. My theory is that the plyban allows the trap air on the sides to be released giving a smooth finish.
PS the stuff I use is not called plyban but some form of plastic cheese cloth from Glengarry that is much cheaper and worked extremely well.
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Do you have a link for either?
I have been using muslin from a fabric store, but would be happy to upgrade to something better.
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The tome molds and the netting come from Margarett Morris at Glengarry.
Tome Moulds (http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/wax.htm)
Cheese bandage netting (http://glengarrycheesemaking.on.ca/accessories.htm)
Keep in mind she drives to NY to save us on shipping costs so it will take an extra few days to get but they are really cheap less than $30 each.
If you want to try the sheets I can send you some I have like 50 of them the don't seem to wear out. I also use them for draining yogurt or veggies I have shreaded. I have to remember to go get some yellow envelopes anyway. PM me you address again I lost it.
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OK.... I lost 2 more cheeses today so I'm just going to be quiet for awhile. :-X
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That doesn't make sense Sailor I just gave you a cheese this afternoon too and I saw the number go up to 46!
I used to get my bags from eBay but Cabelas sells 50 foot rolls for around $15 so I've been getting them there.
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Aw man! How did that happen to you? We will all miss you if you are quiet. I'm getting the cheese thing. I gave you one. You deserve 100 cheeses! Tried to give you another when I saw this last post. and got scolded. Evidently I have to wait an hour! I'm patient.
Susan
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I guess you can only give 1 a day or something it shut me out.
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If you want to try the sheets I can send you some I have like 50 of them the don't seem to wear out. I also use them for draining yogurt or veggies I have shreaded. I have to remember to go get some yellow envelopes anyway. PM me you address again I lost it.
Deb this is just a thought. But since you have so many of them and since they wear out so slowly (if at all) :) maybe you should price them out and make them available to all of the board members. This way not only will they get the sheets for the lower price but will also save a bundle on the shipping since it is unlikely that you will charge $8 - $10 for shipping. Assuming, of course, you are willing to bother with potentially many requests. Again, just a thought.
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Hmmm well maybe I could get a few sheets in a letter envelope? They are lighter than paper I think. Maybe I should look for those big wide white envelopes like the bills come in. Bet a could squeeze a few sheets in there. Good idea hon.
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i have never tryed these, or plyban..
I am not sure i entirely understand its role.
does it replace cheesecloth or muslin?
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It's a synthetic (nylon) cloth.
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ok, so, does one use it like cloth?
I mean, I use a cloth that is about a yard square....
Would i simply replace my muslin for this?
OR, would i form the nylon like that which is found in a Kadova liner?
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Somebody is really playing games. I lost 2 more cheese today. :-X
This was such a nice neighborhood before this troll showed up.
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ok, so, does one use it like cloth?
I mean, I use a cloth that is about a yard square....
Would i simply replace my muslin for this?
OR, would i form the nylon like that which is found in a Kadova liner?
Either :) You can use it in place of muslin, or if you want a really nice, easy finish, you can make a bag out of a piece. All you need is an impulse sealer and to seal an open-ended cylinder, then cut a circle with the right diameter, and then seal that into place so you have this cylindrical liner that fits inside the mold. If you just use it in place of muslin, it works exactly the same as muslin- creases and all.
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Sounds mighty creative with impulse sealer....
Could an impulse sealer also be used to create custom vacuum seal bags?
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Yep, I do it all the time when I need smaller bags or when I need to break up one sealed bag into several. I use pouches with a Vacmaster chamber vac sealer.
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I am going to have to get one of those... That, and a roll of vacuum bag material.
I am going to start vacuum sealing my larger wheels.
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Most impulse sealers use a very thin wire, so the actual sealing area is very narrow. I always double seal when I use mine. Plenty of them on E-bay.
Plyban can easily be sewn as well. You can use an impulse sealer to make the basic cylinder and then sew a circular bottom on. HOWEVER, I have done that and you get a wicked seam that shows up in the pressed cheese anyway. You will get better results if you just put a loose circular piece in the bottom of the mold and use the cylinder. Plyban can also be heat molded, so I would like to find a way to mold a lining similar to a Kadova mold. I have never had anything stick to Plyban, so I would prefer that to the stock Kadova lining, even if it had to be replaced more often.
I would never go back to cheesecloth.
I am looking for a wholesale source for vacuum bags if anybody knows of one.
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What kind of bags? Pouches or rolls? I have some canadian and US suppliers, but freight can be high.
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Both. I use lots of gallon sized pouches but need rolls too. My Pro unit goes up to 15", which I need for my gift boards. I'm looking for a fairly large purchase to amortize freight.
Just bagged 6 Cabra al Vinos today for 6 different Kentucky wineries. Soaked in "their" wine for a week and bagged wet with about 1/4 cup of wine added to the bag. Tricky to vac bag without sucking out the wine. Stunning rind colors, but the sides colored up a lot better than the tops and bottoms, probably because of milk fat concentration. Very cool looking cheese.
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Wayne on a flat sided mold like the tome mold I just cut two circles for the top and bottom and a long strip for the sides. They don't have to be sewn together the curds will hold them in place. Once you press once you can remove them and flip the cheese as normal without the cloth/plastic sheet and it will be very smooth.