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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Smurfmacaw on July 05, 2013, 08:00:37 PM

Title: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 05, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
Today I got really froggy and decided to make two cheeses....We were out of Caerphilly and my wife asked me if I was going to make some of the yummy cheddary stuff I made a couple of weeks ago so that was number one.  Since I was making a Rennet coagulated cheese, I decided I was willing to endure the pain of a double make.  I used Pav's "Annette" recipe from WAcheese.com.  Recipe:

1 gal pasturized goats milk
1 drop calf rennet
1/4 cup Flora Danica mother culture (works out to about 2%)
1/4 tsp CaCl
1/16 tsp SAM3
Skewer tip Geo 13
1 drop single strength rennet



first time I've used a mother culture so things are kind of dodgy at the moment.  I heated the milk to 85 degrees and then added the CaCl and stirred in for two minutes  Waited five more minutes and added mother culture and molds.  Then added one drop rennet.  Into the oven with the light on to keep it at 85 degrees.  bout 7 hour later the milk was coagulated with about 1 inch of whey over the curd.  Curd was very soft.....

Scooped the curd out of the pot and put it in two pyramid molds.  Also had a 5 inch mold ready that held some of it but it just wasn't going to work out so at the expense of about 25% of the curd in the cylinder mold I just continued filling the pyramid molds.  I really really really wish that folks would indicate with the molds how much they hold on average for the type of cheese they are intended for.  Ok, I know that I have a data point and won't wonder again but as a neophyte it would have been a help.

All that being said, I think I drained it a little early.  It was a solid mass and pulled away from the sides of the pot with 1 inch of whey over the top but the curd was extremely soft and moist.  I guess I could have waited a couple of more hours.

Now for the big question that I have......all recipes for Valencay talk about flipping the cheese......seriously?  HOW?  Doesn't seem to work out since it'll be really soft and just squash out and be a pain.......help?

Other than the newbie wondering what the heck I'm doing I am looking forward to the moldy stuff!
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on July 05, 2013, 11:26:11 PM
I had always wondered about instructions to 'flip' cheeses in pyramid molds myself. 

What I do is at the first 'flip' or two I loosen the cheese in the mold, slipping it down the side and back, rotating the mold in my hands, then setting it back on the draining rack open-end-up.  Once the curd is sturdy enough to stand it, I invert the mold on my palm in the process.  As the curd firms further I will invert it onto the draining rack for 10-15 minutes at first, then back into the mold, wide-end-up.  I lengthen the time that the cheese sits unmolded until I'm confident that the cheese will hold it's general shape.  You can still expect it to flatten/widen a slight bit in the long run.

Since these are most often lactic-coagulated goat cheeses the curd is usually rather delicate and from hooping to unmolding normally takes 36-48 hrs for me. 

I'm curious to know how others approach this same concern.

Do let us know how this make turns out for you, Smurfmacaw.  Congratulations on making the foray into bloomies.  I think you'll be delighted with the process and the results.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 06, 2013, 12:48:31 PM
Today they were firm enough to remove from the molds for a while so I guess I'll use Spellogue's technique....seems pretty good.  They seem pretty nice so I'll salt them today later and ash them up tomorrow if I can get them dried out enough.  I used Pav's recipe from wacheese so I'm going to follow his make (except for using the pyramid molds since I think they are cool).  Anyway, here's the results so far.....

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 07, 2013, 10:32:13 PM
ok, I'd post a pic but they look exactly the same but they are black.  The ash is a mess.....i blew my nose a couple of hours later and it was of course black......ick.  Ok, five days until the PC starts taking over......
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 08, 2013, 08:32:29 AM
A lot of folks pre drain the curds for Valencay style.  I mostly don't and I don't flip the molds, nor do I flip the cheeses as they are aging.  I do give them a quarter turn daily on the mat to avoid stickage as the PC grows.

I've done the pre drain style make and it does solve some problems.  The forms are more full/pyramids bigger because of releasing whey before they are put in the molds.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Boofer on July 08, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
I really really really wish that folks would indicate with the molds how much they hold on average for the type of cheese they are intended for. 
Sorry I don't have any pyramid moulds or they would be on my spreadsheet (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9368.msg67308.html#msg67308).

-Boofer-
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 08, 2013, 11:53:12 AM
for the pyramid molds, each one will hold about 1/2 gallons worth of goat curd if you predrain.  If you don't predrain they will still hold it but you'll have to let them settle a bit before adding the remaining curd.  Thanks for the spreadsheet Boofer.  After your posts on Pont l'Eveque I bought some at the local cheese monger.  Tastes really good but the aroma will bring tears to your eyes......gotta make some!
Title: How about that! Mold.
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 08, 2013, 07:59:25 PM
I took a peek in the ripening chamber to see what's up after work today and it's got mold already.  For some reason I thought it took 5-10 days to make an appearance.  Pretty cool!

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: linuxboy on July 08, 2013, 08:46:54 PM
Quote
For some reason I thought it took 5-10 days to make an appearance
1-3 days for geo, 2-8 days for p candidum. Should be full cover at 8-10 days.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 09, 2013, 04:51:56 AM
Quote
For some reason I thought it took 5-10 days to make an appearance
1-3 days for geo, 2-8 days for p candidum. Should be full cover at 8-10 days.

And then start patting down the PC and manage it with temperature to avoid slipskin.  Others with more experience can give more details but it always shocked me that the recipe books don't go into details about this.  (at least the ones I've seen so far).   

This is a fun cheese to make.  I have a bunch of various size smallish molds and love making individual serving size cheeses.  (except that I sometimes eat three in at one sitting because they taste so good!)
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Boofer on July 09, 2013, 07:56:34 AM
Tastes really good but the aroma will bring tears to your eyes......gotta make some!
Really? I guess I'm missing out on a key feature then. My olfactories aren't what they used to be. :'(  Still tasty though. :D

(except that I sometimes eat three in at one sitting because they taste so good!)
And here I thought you didn't eat much cheese.... ;)

Sometimes I find myself in that same vein, with a cheese that keeps me coming back again and again. Moderation, boy, moderation!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 09, 2013, 06:28:58 PM
Wow, this stuff grows fast.  I guess I'll post the daily adventures of the Annette pyramids.

Tiarella, you mentioned in another thread that you were using your SAM-3 up and saving your better PC.  Why do you consider SAM -3 inferior to other strains?

cheers

Mike

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 11, 2013, 08:55:30 AM
Another day and the PC keeps coming on strong.  Kind of makes it fun to tend the cheeses just to see the progress.

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 12, 2013, 10:28:40 PM
And todays pic.  Back to white.  I patted the mold down.  in a couple of days I'll move it to a colder environment.

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on July 13, 2013, 09:20:53 AM
Very nice!  There is nothing quite like a Valencay style cheese.  It's a list topper for me.  I figured I would give you a cheese when you cut into it, but heck I can't contain myself, you should have it now.

I like this style to have a rather sturdy pâté, and a nice thick margin of proteolitic translucency, and a small ball of slight chalkyness in the center. For me that means slowing things down in colder storage within about a day of the point in your last picture and continuing to pat down bringing the ash visible again later.  I do my Poulligny Saint Pierres in a slightly gooey-er, more unctious style.   It depends mainly on personal preference.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 13, 2013, 11:43:24 AM
Thanks Sepllogue,

I'm kind of shooting for the artisan one I got at our local cheese monger. Pretty much like you described.  I'm hoping this one turns out popular with the family since it's actually quite a fun make.  I've got a reliable source for raw goat milk that I trust their hygiene so next batch will be from raw milk to see what the difference is in taste.  I am planning on putting it in the warmest part of my refridgerator on the 10th day after the make which is tomorrow.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 13, 2013, 07:59:33 PM
Wow, this stuff grows fast.  I guess I'll post the daily adventures of the Annette pyramids.

Tiarella, you mentioned in another thread that you were using your SAM-3 up and saving your better PC.  Why do you consider SAM -3 inferior to other strains?

cheers

Mike

Hey Mike, sorry for the delay.  My partner is away all week, I've  had two goats due to birth (only one has popped so far) and lots of fruit to pick so I'm a bit scattered.  I guess that Yoav/iratherfly feels like all the cheese suppliers started pushing it and he wasn't sure why and had the opinion that it's not that interesting of a culture.  It is anti-Mucor and he felt that wasn't a good enough reason to use it but try comparing it's description to other PC varieties such as Neige and VB (not sure if I remembered that name right).

I've used three types so far but haven't done side by side testings.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 13, 2013, 08:10:37 PM
Sounds like having goat babies is even harder and more stressful then having kids......er, wait a minute......

all humor aside, the mold is growing great.  Now i have to figure out how to age it correctly.  Tomorrow it will have a most excellent mold coverage, that I've been patting down, so should I wrap it in cheese paper or should I move the mini cave to the fridge in the big house?  I have high hopes but I'm going to make some raw goat valancey's to see how the taste compares.  I really like this style of cheese.  I've got an amazing fried nut crusted Brie/Camembert recipe that just demands I make some more cheese.

This is way too much fun.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 13, 2013, 09:37:07 PM
I agree that making cheese is way too much fun!   :D  I think it's Bob that keeps his in his cave and never wraps them.  I usually pat them down and then wrap or at least move to a cooler place for the next stage.  I guess it depends upon how verdant your PC is.  (although "verdant" implies green but you know what I mean, right?)  If the PC is thick it's probably best to age at a cooler temp to slow down the process and avoid slipskin.  I'm off to check on the Goodyear Blimp goat.  I hope she doesn't have more than four kids this time.  If she does, I'll mail some to you and you can have your own source of raw goat milk.   >:D
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on July 13, 2013, 11:36:34 PM
Personally, I don't bother to wrap them until/unless I'm going to transport them or present them to someone.  I keep them in a minicave until they're ready to be eaten. I would keep an eye on them and vent for a bit lower RH than for a Camembert and move to even cooler temps if necessary to keep growth slow.  The rind will usually look to have hit a stasis at some point, but there will still be active ripening under the surface.  When possible  I find it nice to make 5-6 of these at a time so that I can eat them at about 7-10 day intervals starting at about 4-5 weeks, until I determine they've peaked. That's subjective thing, but it's also very interesting trying them at different stages.

I've only ever made them with raw milk from our goatherd.  We keep Nigerians like Tiarella does.  I'm curious to hear about your comparison of a raw make to a pasteurized one.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 14, 2013, 06:10:13 PM
Thanks Spellogue,

you caused me to do a little more research and it seems the zeitgeist says that wrapping in paper only accelerates ammoniation if done too early.  I've got it in the fridge now in it's own box.  My daughter gets a kick out of me patting the mold down but I guess it's the little things that entertain your kids......sometimes though I think the ones with hooves might be less trouble........
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on July 14, 2013, 09:49:49 PM
My daughter gets a kick out of me patting the mold down but I guess it's the little things that entertain your kids...

That's it!  Start them early on fostering that love of cheese.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 16, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
Ha, they are amused at all the cheese pictures I take too.  Oh well, they are coming around to where they like different styles of cheese.  The pyramids are looking pretty good.  I'v got them on the top shelf in the refrigerator, just put a thermometer in there this morning so I will know what the temp really is when I get home.  Patting the mold down gently every day to keep it under control.  Ripening box has mild condensation so I'm estimating 90-95% rh.

Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 17, 2013, 02:15:31 PM
They look great!!!!   :D
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 19, 2013, 10:42:38 PM
Next question.......


My refrigerator is too cold I think......about 36-38 degrees.  Am I right about that?  My wife the nurse is a food safety nazi so raising the temp in the fridge isn't going to fly.  Will keeping it that cold totally arrest the ripening or just delay it?  Also, I've moved it back to my ripening fridges at 53 degrees.  Will that cause damage or will it just make it ripen faster and it'll be ok?  If that is the case then I'm good to go.  I may be able to rearrange the cheeses and cool one of my cheese fridges down somewhat. 


Ideas?

Mike
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on July 20, 2013, 05:55:20 AM
I think you're fine with it in one of your aging caves.  I usually drop the temp a bit because I don't think it'll ruin anything else.  I figure natural caves have some natural variation even though it's buffered by earth temp.  I have also aged them in a regular fridge at normal fridge temp and they've worked out fine too.  Slows it down for less chance of slipskin.  I've done them both wrapped and in mini caves in the kitchen fridge.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 23, 2013, 06:33:31 PM
Started to get a slight ammonia smell....used my wife's nose, she is very sensitive to all aromas.  So raised the temp in the fridge in the house to 40 or so (hope she doesn't read this) and am going to age it a little slower.  How thick should I shoot for on the gooeyness under the rind?  The gooey part is my favorite but the creamy chevre in the middle is a close second.   Don't want to push the envelope on who can eat it though....I know some cheese snobs like the ammonia to the point you can clean your floor with it but I really am not a fan of strongly ammoniated cheeses.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: linuxboy on July 23, 2013, 06:38:32 PM
Quote
I know some cheese snobs like the ammonia to the point you can clean your floor with it
Really? Everyone I know considers it a fault in all cheeses. Some slight amount is tolerable sometimes, but nobody actually likes it that I know of.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 23, 2013, 06:53:09 PM
I read somewhere that real cheese snobs like them to the verge of not being able to stand the ammonia....I'll see if i can find where I read that.  I agree that it is not what I consider a good taste.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 23, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
Aha,

it was from the wiki.

"After ~4 weeks age, the smell of ammonia will become apparent while the creamy golden interior will become ever-more liquid. This is the preferred age of B/C snobs. But eventually, even the hardiest of B/C-lovers will concede defeat to an odor that is “not far removed from wet gym kit that has been allowed to fester undisturbed inside a plastic bag for more than a week”. If the cheese reaches this stage, it should be thrown out, or buried."

Personally the smell of ammonia is not desired.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on July 24, 2013, 12:19:58 PM
How thick should I shoot for on the gooeyness under the rind?  The gooey part is my favorite but the creamy chevre in the middle is a close second.

In my Valencay I look for a rather firm translucent layer under the rind rather than a gooeyness.  The ash helps me to achieve this. I keep them cooler (43-43F) with a bit lower RH by venting the ripening box.  Once brought to room temp the proteolyzed layer will be less firm than the rest if the pâté, but not at all fluid like a Camembert or Brie. Usually, in this style, the chèvre ball in the middle will retain a slight chalkiness.

I'm still tweaking the recipe, but I usually do my Pouligny Ste Pierres with a more fluid layer than Valencay.  The Pouligny has no ash.  Both of those cheeses are lactic coagulations.  If I recall your recipe you used a rennet concentrated coagulation in this make.  I don't know if that will have any impact on the gooeyness factor, but I'm curious to know.  So far I've only used ash on lactic coagulated goat cheeses.  I'm watching your cam post too.  I plan to try ash on a rennet coagulated bloomie soon, time permitting.

As for ammonia, personally I can hardly tolerate much more than a hint when eating most cheeses.  Heavy ammonia mid-ripening can be a sign that yoir cheese needs more air circulation. Using microcaves i run into that. Venting for circulation is a balancing act with maintaining RH. You're likely OK at this point, perhaps just a bit more air circulation will keep it in check. So long as it hasn't run rampant, airing the cheese before serving will allow the remaining ammonia to dissipate.  In all but the worst cases I find ammonia to reside mostly in the rind. the rind can be removed before consuming, as a last resort of course.

Your progress on so far on this make looks stellar to me.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese - The Tasting
Post by: Smurfmacaw on August 02, 2013, 08:19:53 PM
I think it's about ripe enough.  Very slight ammonia smell that dissipated after setting it out  for a while to warm up to room temp.

Smell is mushroomy and something else I can't quite describe but really nice.  Familial units agree it smells yummy and being female they have very discerning smellers!

When I cut it there is a nice layer of ooey gooey goodness all around the center firmer cheese.  Just the right amount of gooeyness.  Center has a nice lactic goat cheese flavor without being to tangy.  Over all nice and mild.  There is a definite mushroominess from the gooey part....very nice, I like it a lot. The margin is gooey without being liquid.  Slowly oozes.  Center is very smooth and creamy in texture and again not too sour.  Nice saltiness overall surprisingly.  I was worried a little bit at the small amount of salt but it turned out just right.

Not one to usually pat myself on the back but this one is a home run. Pav (aka linuxboy) at WaCheese deserves the credit, it's his recipe.  You absolutely can't go wrong with this one.  It's definitely going to be a standard.  The family loves it, I love it and it's a fun make....how can you go wrong. 

Here's a few pics.....
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on August 02, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
Just wanted to add, this is my personal favorite of the cheeses I've made so far.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: linuxboy on August 02, 2013, 10:51:57 PM
You nailed it based on the pics. It's about standards in cheesemaking. Like when you learn to cook, you start with eggs and knife skills. Same thing, with cheesemaking, you start with a semi-lactic or a tomme because it forces one to learn good skills and standards.

Nice one. Cheese to you.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Tiarella on August 03, 2013, 06:08:09 AM
That DOES look like a great make so another cheese to you.  There's a thread somewhere on this forum with photos of a bunch of different things done to cheeses like this.  Don't remember how to find it but some were washed with different liquids for very cool effects and additions to flavor.  There's also leaf adornment that works well on these.  (I vacuum pack and freeze the leaves in a flat stack and when thawed they are limp and adhere to the wet, just ashed cheeses)

How many days were these in your cave?  What temp was it at?  I've got a batch going now but I've got my cave at a lower temp in an attempt to slow the PC on a Star Anise Humboldt Fog style cheese that's also in there.   :D
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on August 03, 2013, 12:28:45 PM
Katherin,

they had sort of a varied life in the cave.  First two weeks were at 54 degrees.  Next week at 40 degrees in the kitchen fridge.  Then I cooled a cave down to 48 degrees and the spent their final week in there.  All the time they were in boxes to keep the humidity up.  I took them out daily for an exchange of air and to pat down the mold.

I'm going to keep one cave a little cooler (48F) from now on to facilitate these types of cheese since I like them so much.  This one was really good.  Next time I'm going to make with raw goats milk to see if it makes much of a difference.

A cheese this good that is ready on only four weeks is awesome.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Spellogue on August 03, 2013, 09:46:37 PM
That is a beautiful cheese.  I'm very interested to hear your observances in comparing raw and pasteurized versions.
Title: Re: First Ever Bloomy Rind Cheese
Post by: Smurfmacaw on September 13, 2013, 01:09:51 AM
Will be trying the raw goat version tomorrow.....