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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: JeffHamm on July 15, 2012, 07:18:22 AM

Title: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 15, 2012, 07:18:22 AM
Hi,

Well with Bastille day just gone past I decided I should make a French cheese.  Since storming the Bastille isn't something one does every day, I thought I should try something new as well, so I made my first Tomme based upon Pav's instructions.  I had to use buttermilk and Flora Danica as my starter, so it's not quite right, but I'm hoping it will be ok.  Everything seems to have gone ok.  Certainly a much softer feeling cheese than I'm used to when I'm flipping it.  Anyway, will brine it tomorrow and will include photos.  All I've got now is the heat rise chart, and though I reached temperature a coupld minutes early, I think I'm probably ok.


Tomme (Pav’s instructions) Sunday, July 15, 2012
11 L Standard Home Brand
2 ice cubes fd
4 ice cubes buttermilk
¼ tsp 50% CaCl
7 ml Renco

•Warm 11 litres milk 31.10C (??.? C : ??:??)
•add culture @ 7:12, 30.1 continue to heat to 31.1 at 7:15
•Ripen for 30 mins at 31.10C (88 F) (7:15 - 7:45 ; 30.8.?C)
•add CaCl2 diluted in cold water
•add rennet (7:47:30 30.8 C)
• floc time (8:00:45 = 13m 15sec 3x = floc time 39m 15sec = cut time 8:27:15)
•Cut into 1/4 inch cubes, let rest 5 mins (8:35 - 8:40)
•Stir and increase temp to 37.80C (100 F) over 30 mins. Hold at 37.80C (100 F)  until the curd is at the right texture. You can tell this by pressing a tablespoon of curd in your hand. It should mat together slightly and be somewhat firm.
8:45 - 9:12; End temp - 38.1 C – hold 9:12- 10:00)
•Drain in vat or warm colander. pH should be 6.35 or higher. Let curds mat and press slightly under whey. Drained at 10:00 into mould.  Flipped at 11 and 11:15
•Put into cheesecloth lined molds. This cheese sticks, so soak the cheesecloth in pH 5.2 whey beforehand.
•Press under own weight turning at 15 min, 30 min, and 1 hour increments. (flipped through the day; with 2.5 kg as weight)
•Press until pH is 5.4 or overnight. (pressed until 3:00 am)
•Brine in fully saturated brine 3-4 hours per lb of cheese. (1.652kg = 10.9 - 14.5 hours in the brine)
Brined from 3:00 am to 4:30, = 13.5 hours in the brine.  Final weight 1638g ; 15.4cm x 7.9cm = 1471 ccm, for a density of 1.11 g/ccm.  Bigger than my usual makes, but used an additional litre, and also the low press weight seems to leave the cheese quite "spongy" feeling compared to things like caerphilly and other cheddar types.
•Leave at12.8-18.30C  (55-65 F) for a day at ~70% RH for the outer rind to dry a little before moving to the cave.
•Age 3-6 months at 10-12.80C (50-55F), 85-92% RH (or higher if using special rind treatment or making a b linens variant). Natural or oil rubbed rind.

Made a 3% brine solution (129g water, 4g non iodized salt) with 1/40 tsp b.linens on Saturday, July 21 (am).  Washed the cheese with the brine that evening.
Washed again Monday, July 23, am.
Washed again Wednesday, July 25, am.
Washed again Friday, July 27, am.
Washed again, Sunday, July 29, am.  Some hints of an orangish colour may be showing.
Tuesday, July 31, 2012: Washed with above solution again (am).  (tacky surface, perhaps some colour)
Saturday, Aug 4, 2012: Washed with above solution again (am).  (tacky, some colour, some mould)
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on July 15, 2012, 07:44:25 AM
Alright, Jeff! Branching out!

Yeah, you should have some fun with this cheese. Mine are always an adventure.  ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 15, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
Thanks Boofer.  I might give it a few washes with b.linens after a week or so, but nothing too intense.  Other than that, it will have to pick up whatever it can from the natural environment as I don't have any rind mixes.  Not to fear, there's plenty of wild geo here, and blues aplenty, so it will pick up something in a hurry.  I'll add the b.linens just so I can feel a part of the process. :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 16, 2012, 04:43:43 AM
Here it is out of the brine.  Weighed in at 1638g after the salt baths, and the dimentions are 15.4 x 7.9 cm, which ends up giving a cheese density of 1.11 g/ccm.  It's quite a bit taller and "spongier" than I'm used to, but then, I tend to make a lot of cheddars and such, so no suprise.  The Staffordshire had a similar feel, though it was pressed a bit more.  Anyway, this was the first time I pressed under whey, and there were no disasters.  It's now in the drying room to firm up and will be transported to the cave tomorrow evening.  Should be interesting to see how things develope.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 16, 2012, 06:04:43 AM
Nice going Jeff! I like your relaxed aging plan. Makes the best cheeses. Go crazy with natural rind.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 16, 2012, 07:10:27 AM
Thanks iratherfly!  I wouldn't be too surprised if this one bulges at the middle a bit as it's quite tall.  I had a butterkase that was quite tall do that before.  Hmm, I think that picked up some wild linens and was quite good.  Anyway, I think the natural rind will turn out fine.  I've had some interesting rinds start to develop, but haven't really aged one out long enough to see how it progresses.  Most of my long term aging projects are waxed.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 16, 2012, 07:29:35 PM
As a general rule of thumb, Tommes can get some of their maturation and much of their aroma as surface ripened cheese. If made for that purpose, it is best to make them shorter and wider. so the effects of the rind on both ends meet in the center in a timely manner.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: linuxboy on July 16, 2012, 07:35:51 PM
Great point. Also, you can try to craft the moisture target to achieve the paste and flavor development you want. Less moisture in the paste = slower flavor development = greater nuance/depth potential (IMHO, not all agree). More moisture = faster maturation, more unctuous, soft paste. One approach, for example is to do a 4"-5" tall wheel, low moisture, and age it out for 6 months with a smear or natural rind for a deeper, cheesy kind of flavor. Or to do a 2.5" wheel and higher moisture for something ready in 60 days with some more funk or earth/mushroom from the rind treatment.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 16, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
I am just trying to figure out how to make a Pantaleo style... it tastes like lots of helveticus and bulgaricus to me. Closed curd, sweet and milky yet slightly acidic and not too moist. Pressing, milling, salting, and re-pressing would knock of tons of moisture. ...But this is a Sardinian cheese and it's not like the Sardinians to press something, mill it and then re-press it. Too fussy for them. They usually naturally drain everything in baskets and maybe stack things atop each other - yet they still get hard, dry cheeses.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: linuxboy on July 16, 2012, 07:52:26 PM
I think Pantaleo is made like a pecorino with meso temps. And likely using only classic O type culture.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 16, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Hi,

I hadn't quite realized how much of a difference in the aspect ratio there would be.  The lack of milling, the getting the curds to press themselves (I put 2.5 kg on top, to simulate stacking), has produced for me a much wetter and less compressed cheese.  I was wondering if I should have used my larger mould, but then thought when I made a Dunlop (admittedly a cheddar) and a Butterkase in it, they were both quite thin in the end, and I was thinking they were too thin for this.  I've had some other overly tall cheeses, and they will usually settle somewhat, so I'm thinking this will do the same.  I also expect it to continue draining out whey as the curds are still quite wet.   

This is very much a learning make for me, so I'll be happy if it results in a passable cheese.  I'll give it 3 or 4 light washes with b.linens starting next week, spaced two or three days apart.  I'll get lots of volunteers, but do want to ensure there is a decent base.  I don't expect the ripening to make it all the way to the middle, but if I can get a gradient, then that could be interesting as I could sample different flavour profiles within the same cheese. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 17, 2012, 07:13:19 AM
Don't worry about it being too wet, Tommes are quite liberal. Age it drier until it reaches the desired texture, or use the wet as a great basis to build wild rind.  You can toss some coarse salt on it and wash (abrasive with the salt) with a cotton rag. Do that a few times, a day or two in between and you will get nice, dry, elastic and strong rind.

Next time, increase the cooking time. Sounds like you moulded before the curd was ready
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on July 17, 2012, 01:57:51 PM
Jeff, just another point for consideration....

I currently have three different cheese styles in progress (Tomme (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9807.0.html), Beaufort (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9862.0.html), Reblochon (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9898.0.html)) using the same rind treatment: PLA. I have favorably used PLA before and had good results. I don't know how all three of these cheeses ended up getting the PLA, but in the end it really is a convenience. Share and share alike.

What they all have in common is the low, slightly-gritty Geo growth with a faint linens color. I like the PLA a lot. It gives good rind protection and seems to give consistently controlled growth of linens and Geo.

Yoav, I have to give you credit for one of my attachments. It's a note I saved from May 2011.

I also attached a file that may help others with natural washed-rind development.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 17, 2012, 06:45:10 PM
Thanks iratherfly!  I wouldn't be surprised if I undercooked.  I had to cook until the curds would stick together and be a bit firm, and this requires repeated exposure to the cheese to get a feel for what a bit firm is, and how sticky they should be, etc.  I've not got a good set of tactile representations in my head yet, so I cooked until things seemed to be doing what was described.  But with store bought H/P milk, firm is a bit less firm than one might want.  Anyway, it's in the cave now, with the box lid set up to be wide to allow as much moisture to escape.  It still condenses on the sides a bit, so I wipe it down.  I think it will develope pretty well.

And thanks for the suggestions Boofer.  I haven't found a source for surface cultures other than b.linens.  The choices are pretty limited here.  But, I can get wild geo easy enough, and b.linens I have, so I can do some.  I can get PC from a camembert and blue mould from bought cheeses (not that I'm intending to add either of those to this cheese, but those are what I have access too and how).  I've been following all your rind developments and have learned a lot as a result.  Just don't have the materials to apply theory to practice, so knowledge and ideas are high, but skill set is low. :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 20, 2012, 09:53:50 PM
You are welcome Jeff, and thanks Boofer!
Say Boofer... have you tried using PLA's little sibling yet? ARN.  Use it the same way but totally different profile of aroma, flavor and presentation. Love it.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on July 21, 2012, 01:26:41 AM
You are welcome Jeff, and thanks Boofer!
Say Boofer... have you tried using PLA's little sibling yet? ARN.  Use it the same way but totally different profile of aroma, flavor and presentation. Love it.
You know, I had notes from about a year ago praising ARN. I think Paul talked about it. I'll have to give it a try. Can you detail what differences it brings?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on July 21, 2012, 04:45:09 AM
It has two different types of Linens in it: (both Arthrobacter nicotianae and Brevibacterium linens) and Geo. While the PLA gives you Savoie aroma and development, the ARN gives you Normandy qualities. You can use it with PC and/or yeasts for classic Normandy cheeses like Camembert and the mixed rind Pont-l'évêque. You can try it also in other mixed rinds like Reblochon, in washed rinds like Livarot and even in Crottins.
It's different color and aroma.

When used for wash or spray it's a bit more tricky because you have to use sugar in the brine in addition to salt. They recommend you use tryptone too -to keep it alive so if you don't have it, you may want to make small batches to use within 2-3 days rather than a single bottle of wash that will last you 2 weeks.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on July 21, 2012, 03:00:17 PM
you have to use sugar in the brine in addition to salt.
Sugar? Explain, please.

They recommend you use tryptone too -to keep it alive
tryptone? Oh yeah, I've still got some left in the back of the fridge....  ::) No, not really. Had to Google it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptone) to know what it (http://www.neogen.com/acumedia/pdf/ProdInfo/7351_PI.pdf) was.

So the only difference between PLA and ARN is not the yeast (http://Debaryomyces hansenii) in PLA?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on July 21, 2012, 05:54:23 PM
All I have are orange b.linens.  I did up a solution yesterday morning of 129 g water and 4 g salt (so 3% solution), and added 1/40 tsp of b.linens to it.  I let this sit around for the day, then gave the tomme a light wash with this.  I just pour some into a bowl, and then use a cloth to moisten the cheese.  I'll probably do a wash every couple days for a week or two.  Then I let whatever shows up join in and we'll just wait and see what happens.  I'm thinking this will be ready early next year, so no rush here.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on July 22, 2012, 07:59:10 AM
Perhaps glucose (dextrose powder) will work better then sucrose.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on August 04, 2012, 12:57:15 AM
So the only difference between PLA and ARN is not the yeast ([url]http://Debaryomyces[/url] hansenii) in PLA?

No. ARN has two types of linens in it and the geo strain is different.  PLA mimics Savoie style cheeses. ARN mimics Normandie style cheeses.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 04, 2012, 12:58:46 AM
PLA has two types of linens as well.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on August 04, 2012, 01:23:35 AM
You are correct. Both use arthrobacter nicotianae as the cream color linen and then actual b.linen for the darker color, but the strains are different. More intense with ARN. ARN has very different aroma too.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 04, 2012, 01:36:16 AM
What is more intense with the ARN? Sharpness? Bite? Aroma?

In characterizing Normandie versus Savoie, can you help me out here? I'm not quite so in tune.  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on August 04, 2012, 05:38:19 AM
Actually, I shouldn't have said more intense. Just different. They both have their own distinct aromas.

Normandie, think Camembert, Pon't l'Évêque, Brillat Savarin, Livarot. Earthy, creamy, barnyardy, acidic, rinds of white and orange
Savoie, think Reblochon, Tomme de Savoie, Tomme Crayeuse, Abondance, Beaufort, Chevrotin. Grassy, nutty, milky, diverse rinds of white, brown, orange, and gray
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 04, 2012, 06:31:39 AM
That clarifies a bit. Thanks.

So you're saying I should have ARN in my freezer? Seems like a good idea.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 04, 2012, 05:41:56 PM
That clarifies a bit. Thanks.

So you're saying I should have ARN in my freezer? Seems like a good idea.

-Boofer-

Actually, I think he's saying you should have ARN on your cheese!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 04, 2012, 06:52:07 PM
Oh, that's been my problem!  Well...one of them anyway. :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on August 04, 2012, 07:16:54 PM
Yoav, you should sell a culture boundle.   Ma,RA,TA,LH,yeasts,molds (PC,PR,GEO).
A collection no cheesemaker's freezer can go without :)
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Shazah on August 04, 2012, 09:04:05 PM
Yoav, you should sell a culture boundle.   Ma,RA,TA,LH,yeasts,molds (PC,PR,GEO).
A collection no cheesemaker's freezer can go without :)

Tomer1 that is a great idea!

Yoav, I'd be a starter for this type of bundle if you are looking for expressions of interest.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 05, 2012, 05:12:54 AM
Yoav, you should sell a culture boundle.   Ma,RA,TA,LH,yeasts,molds (PC,PR,GEO).
A collection no cheesemaker's freezer can go without :)
What is Ma, RA? Get me some of that too, Tomer.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on August 05, 2012, 10:26:07 AM
MA4000\4001\19, RA21\24
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on August 05, 2012, 05:35:50 PM
Yoav, you should sell a culture boundle.   Ma,RA,TA,LH,yeasts,molds (PC,PR,GEO).
A collection no cheesemaker's freezer can go without :)
Great idea all! I am on it!  Which bundles would you like to see together? How about a bloomy bundle, washed bundle, tomme bundle, reblochon bundle, cheddar bundle and swiss bundle? I just got in a huge shipment from Danisco, CHR Hansen and Abiasa, like 50 different types of cultures!  (I don't think I have RA though, no one ever asked for it)

Boofer, RA is a mix of Cremoris, Lactis, and Thermophilus. It's a farmstead culture minus the gas/eyes and diacetyl (butter flavor) that you get with MA4000. It's basically like mixing MA11 (-thru MA19, same thing) with TA50 (-thru TA54, same thing).

Tomer, MA11 thu 19 is different than MA4000 thru 4002. MA11-19 don't have diacetyl or thermophilus in them, just lactis/cremoris.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on August 08, 2012, 07:49:22 PM
Thats a good idea to boundle by style.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 12, 2012, 05:05:17 AM
Hmmm,

Yesterday morning when I flipped this one it revealed a split in the rind.  I've had this happen only once before, on a butterkase to which I was adding a b.linens wash.  So this has happened twice now, and both times to semi-firm, lightly pressed cheeses, which I've washed with a brine and b.linens.  I suspect it's the brine in the wash rather than the b.linens.  Because the box is quite humid (condensation every day), I don't think it's too dry.  Rather, I think the brine wash pulls the moisture out of the surface of the cheese, but given how humid the box is, that's all that happens.  This creates the dry surface relative to the moist inner cheese, which is what happens if the environement is too dry.

To compound this, the cheese was sitting up on a layer of chopsticks to allow air to circulate.  But, the cheese also sags between the sticks, and this stretches the stiffened rind, and it splits. 

Anyway, I've put down a layer of needlepoint matting to remove the sagging between the chopsticks and we'll see what happens.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 12, 2012, 06:29:04 AM
Yeah, I had that happen where a cheese sagged because it wasn't fully supported. Not good. The needlepoint mat should do the trick.

That's mostly what I use with an assist from some other netting under it to help aerate.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 12, 2012, 10:44:30 PM
The chopsticks (I use about 8 to 10) work fine for harder cheeses.  The softer bodied Tomme, however, still has enough play in it, combined with the wash, that I should have known better.  Oh well, live and learn. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 16, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Hi,

This has now got a nice light b.linens colouring, so no more washes.  The rind is fairly clean, but some mould is developing.  The split on the other side is not healing, but it's not spreading deep.  The inner paste looks very moist and yummy.  I was thinking I would let this develop a natural rind, but with the split, I'm thinking it might have to be vaccuum bagged.  I might be able to wrap a belt on it, but I've had problems with keeping the cloth belt tight enough to make a difference.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on August 16, 2012, 08:45:34 PM
Maybe bag it and let it age?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 16, 2012, 08:54:38 PM
Hi Tomer1,

That's what I was thinking, but I was hoping to get a decent natural rind going which bagging will prevent.  But, the softness of the inner paste is tearing the split and it's probably better not to lose the cheese.  I think something about my procedures when I make these washed rinds is causing the skin to tighten too fast, then rip.  This will have to do with moisture differences and the elasticity of the rind, and the humidity of the cave will be a factor as well. 

Will bagging more or less kill off the b.linens?  This is also one of the reasons why I've delayed bagging it.  I would like these to work on producing some flavour, which will be stronger near the rind and diminish towards the centre.

I may just have to make another!

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 17, 2012, 01:00:15 AM
Your rind is corrupted. Seems like this will have to be a vacuum baby in order to protect the inner paste from the Bad Guys.

Bag it and start another, Jeff. Sock this one away for a couple months.

I would vote for "yes, the linens will stop doing their thing". They like a breath of fresh air every so often.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 17, 2012, 01:08:35 AM
You're probably right.  Sigh.  A shame though.  Still, the glance inside looks really promising as the inner paste really looks enticing.  I'll bag it tonight.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 17, 2012, 06:13:00 AM
It's bagged now.  A shame as the linens had developed to just the level I wanted them and now I have to turn them off.  Oh well, I'm very pleased with the look of the internals.  Though I'm tempted to just cut into it, I realise it's not ready for tasting yet, but the soft internal paste looks really nice.  Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying this, even if it's not going to be for some time.  It's only 1 month now.  I was thinking 6 months.  When do others normally cut into their Tommes for a good result?  Given the rind corruption earlier would be better for this than later, so I guess the real question is, what's the earliest recommended cut time?

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on August 17, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
I'm no expert on the right time to cut, but I'd monitor the exposed cut area for foreign invaders and try to hold out for at least three or four months. Even with the split, the internal paste changes are occurring and transforming the cheese into the quasi-masterpiece you intended it to be.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: boothrf on August 24, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
Hi Jeff, really enjoying reading your posts on your butterkasse, Caerphilly and tomme. I have just branched into harder cheeses after playing with cams and blues for the last 18 months. Made my first Cheddar last week and now want to tackle a Caerphilly and a butterkasse .  I'd like to know what size hoops you use for these cheeses. I have a few small Cheddar hoops, around 100mm dia, but would like to make a single largerr cheese. My make is usually 8 to 10 litres.  Also, what type of follower do you use when pressing?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on August 25, 2012, 04:43:07 AM
Thanks Bob, I'm glad you're finding them useful.  The Tomme is my first try, and it's linuxboy's procedure.  I

I use a 6 1/4 inch (16 cm) diameter mould for these (it's 6 or 7 inches high).  It's fairly straight sided, though it does get a wee bit smaller near the bottom.  It has a flat bottom, with holes (i.e. not like a cam loop).  The follower came with the mould.  It's just a flat piece of plastic.  I find this is a good size for my 10 and 11 litre makes, so if you can find something similar, pick it up.  Look forward to hearing how your caerphilly and butterkase turn out.  I'm making a butterkase tomorrow, and made a caerphilly last week.

- Jeff

Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: boothrf on August 26, 2012, 04:47:13 AM
Thanks Jeff. I have a similar hoop that I use for my large blues, so will try that one. I'll make up a follower with some old cutting board. Looking forward to trying it next weekend.  :)
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 05, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Hi,

Well, it was developing some blue mould in the vac bag, so I removed it and gave it a scrub down.  I recall Boofer washed one of his under running water, so I did the same.  The rind is stained a nice pink from the b.linens and the blue all washed off (except that which is in the cracks, which could use a bit of attention after work today), similar to a Port Salut I think. Anyway, It's now weighing 1402g.  I'll let it dry off, clean the cracks this evening, then bag it again for more aging.  Another month or so and I'll taste it.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on September 06, 2012, 02:11:23 PM
Clean as a whistle! Looks good.

That's some crack, Jeff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 06, 2012, 06:53:33 PM
Thanks Boofer.  The crack on top is quite wide but only through the rind, not down into the paste, the one down the side is quite superficial.  The internals are all fine as far as I can tell. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: H-K-J on September 06, 2012, 10:07:12 PM
Very nice Jeff, this is one I need to try, as soon as my wife gets done canning and I am aloud back in the kitchen :-\
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 06, 2012, 10:47:14 PM
Thanks H-K-J.

Next time I'll cook this one longer as it could expel a bit more whey before going into the mould.  I think that is part of the problem behind the splitting.  And, I'll have to get a hygrometer to check the humidity in my boxes.  They seem ok, but I could be wrong.

- Jeff 
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Glenda on September 10, 2012, 04:01:02 AM
Say, what is ARN culture?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: boothrf on September 10, 2012, 05:49:33 AM
Hi Glenda, ARN is a ripening culture. All the details were posted in this thread so if you go back and read through this thread you will find the information you need.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 10, 2012, 07:27:52 AM
Say, what is ARN culture?
Glenda ARN is a lot like PLA, a mix of ripening cultures (Geo, B.Linens and Yeasts) but instead of giving the cheese the flavor/aroma/look of Savoyard cheeses, it mimics the style of Normandie. I would use it only with soft Tommes though, otherwise it's better with other cheeses.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Glenda on September 10, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Where do you get ARN or is it worth it? Heard it was great!
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 11, 2012, 06:51:57 PM
I sell cheesemaking supplies so I actually carry ARN. I personally really love it. 10-dose sachet (enough for 1,000 liters of milk or 265 gallons) costs $16.99. Contact me using the private message if you want details.  I find it to be more colorful and stinky than PLA, but it takes a bit more work to get going in my experience. It really does smells and tastes like cheeses from Normandie and surrounding regions.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on September 12, 2012, 01:17:22 PM
I find it to be more colorful and stinky than PLA, but it takes a bit more work to get going in my experience. It really does smells and tastes like cheeses from Normandie and surrounding regions.
Boy, you're making it tough to ignore, Yoav.  ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on September 18, 2012, 01:59:46 AM
Okay,  so I've read this thread twice now and now I have urgent questions.  I made a Tomme using LB's recipe and I'd like ti have it develop a natural rind but am not sure how to do that.  It was rubbed with salt rather than brined, it took several days to really dry off and now I'm wondering what to do......do I just put it I a cheese box in my wine fridge or do I wash it with a PLA wash?  or some B. Linens?  I have a few options......  Or do I rub it with olive oil?  (I don't think so). I need to do something pretty quick since it's finally dry.  I have in stock the following cultures thanks to iratherfly; PC-VB,  Geo 13, PLA, LBC80, and PC SAM.  I also have wild b. Linens and blue in my cave........    :-\.     Any suggestions welcome!!!!!!!   :D
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 18, 2012, 07:04:54 AM
If you want to do wild rind, I wouldn't introduce anything else into it. Just put it in the box and wait for crazy colorful fuzz to show up.  Brush is back every couple of weeks and before you know it you will have a rich gray-blue-brown-yellow mold covering the cheese with lots of mushroomy notes. To do that, you need A LOT of humidity so use the aging box and put it at about 54°F.

Otherwise, you can wash it with PLA, or a mix of B.Linen and cheese yeast (I don't remember if you had any) and geo.  From the cultures you said you have, the PC-VB and PC-SAM don't really work with Tomme. They are good for Camembert style and have short life. Geo is good for most cheeses but usually work with other moulds and not alone.  LBC is NOT a surface ripening culture. You add LBC to the milk when you make the cheese. It works like a starter culture in later stages and without actually effecting acidity.

By the way, you can help wild rind develop by placing the cheese on top of natural wood boards, hay or straw. Some wood will also transfer tannins to the cheese.

Does this give you as good direction?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on September 18, 2012, 11:27:11 AM
Yes thank you, that's a big help.  I just wonder what level of rind development it needs so that all those molds won't impact it in a negative way. I think it's developed a decent rind now so maybe I can just wait and see.  And really, just brush it back every week or two????  Seems like it'll get awfully moldy in between those. 

Oh, you mentioned, or at least I think it was you, that a Manchego should be kept clean but mine is moldy and has a lot of little grooves from the mold pattern.  I have some brushes arriving shortly that I can use to brush it off but how on earth can I keep a cheese mold free when I want that?  With the Manchego, should I oil it after brushing it?  Or should I try to get the mold totally off of it by washing with a wash mixture containing something like close infusion or grapefruit seed extract to actually kill the mold and then dry and oil it? 

Thank you.......
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: iratherfly on September 21, 2012, 05:56:15 AM
I would brush the Manchego clean with a damp no-lint cloth and maybe a bit of salt. Dry it well and then give it a coating of olive oil. Repeat the coating a couple of days later and maintain in the future if you think it needs more.

For the Tomme, all this mold is normal. That's how Tomme de Savoie is being made. If you want to reduce mold growth just reduce humidity!  The mold won't grow endlessly. It relies on nutrients so if there is nothing for it to eat except other mold it would slow down. It also  needs air and ample moisture. High salinity and high acidity slow it down too (and eventually kill it). You can toss some coarse salt and rub with a bery damb no-lint cloth, the salt will kill or at least slow some of this down.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on September 28, 2012, 06:26:32 AM
In just over a week this will reach the 12 week mark, so 3 months.  Some friends will be back in town as well, and we'll probably have them over, so that might be a good time to try it.  Through the bag it feels quite soft, so I'm very curious to see how the paste is.  When it cracked, it appeared to glisten and look very soft and yum.  I'm hoping that is still the case, and that the taste is as good as the texture implies.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on September 28, 2012, 06:28:42 AM
Looking forward to seeing this when you open it, Jeff. I'm keen with anticipation. :D

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 05, 2012, 10:11:51 PM
Hi,

Well, it was about 3 months (12 weeks) this weekend, so I decided to try this one out.  It was a bit sticky in the bag, and the linens were obviously still a bit active (the aroma gave them away).  Some mould was growing in the crack of doom as well (photo 1), but I gave it a wash under the tap, and brushed it with the nail brush, and it's cleaned up a bit (2nd photo).  Cut into it, and it's really creamy.  A very very moist, almost cream cheese, paste.  This is such a soft paste that the cheese is sort of collapsing on itself (you can see how it bulges in the photos).  The linens have definately flavoured the paste all the way in though.  I cut a sliver, which was a bit tricky as the paste is quite "sticky" it is so moist, and tasted the section from the middle, and there is that meaty b.linens flavour through and through!  Not too stong, but quite nice.  So, definately an edilbe result but the structure of it is not quite right.  I think my 2nd make will be better.  In part, this one has remained in a bag and so it couldn't lose moisture as it aged.  Anyway, a success.  Will see how it goes with with everyone else.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on October 06, 2012, 12:19:00 AM
Did you not cook the curds?  how did you end up with such a moist tomme?  Even my unpressed (just fliped in the mould) wasnt as moist.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 06, 2012, 12:45:29 AM
I'm not entirely sure what happened, but I'm thinking I should have cooked longer and stirred with more vigor.  This was very soft out of the mould, and has never firmed up.  It has a layer about 1/8-1/4 inch in that is just ib the solid side of liquid once it warms up.  The 2nd one I've made is much firmer, so we'll see how that one goes.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 06, 2012, 04:57:42 PM
It looks quite yummy from over here.  How long does a cheese that moist stay good in the fridge?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 06, 2012, 05:08:36 PM
Hi anut,

I don't know.  It's aged 3 months, and I've re-bagged 1/2 of it.  The other 1/2 we'll try eat over the next few weeks.  I don't think  it will  go   off b efore  we can eat it :)    !

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 07, 2012, 02:20:11 PM
Oh no! Tragedy!  :(

I had a Gouda (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2322.msg27742.html#msg27742) similar to that. It started out somewhat firm, but then seemingly continued to ripen...until it became quite oozy...like a Brie. Perhaps I washed the curds a little too much and they became a little too wet.

Eh, you'll do better with the next one, Jeff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 07, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
Hi Boofer,

Well, it's a tragedy if you think of it as a tomme.  But, it tastes really good and has been a hit with everyone who has tried it, so I just call it a soft washed rind cheese. :)  So, at least it didn't have to get pitched.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 07, 2012, 05:29:59 PM
Well then, kudos to you, Jeff, for inventing a new cheese style. ;)

Yeah, I've had a couple of those that didn't quite turn out the way that I had intended, but they were pretty tasty anyway. I few that were downright disgusting. :P

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 07, 2012, 11:20:20 PM
My Brie batch that got left out on my workbench for 5 days while I was sick was a case of "truly disgusting" and got tossed. Too bad.  They looked SO good, even the paste was soft and creamy and looked right on target to ripen.  The smell?  oh my gosh, will not even try to describe since it's always dinner time somewhere and I'd hate to ruin someone's experience. 
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 08, 2012, 04:30:53 PM
I did that once.  5 days in 100 degree weather.  I got lucky though and it just accelerated the aging.  Tastes like it was aged 8 months when the actual aging was 2 months. 
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 09, 2012, 01:58:10 AM
Oooh I'm glad you had a good outcome.  I'm afraid I just had another lapsed attention attack.  This time a batch of chevre that i'd put in molds to drain, then unmolded and ashed/salted and left to drain.  I don't even have solid make notes on this batch but I don't think they have the PC or Geo in them so I'm not sure what I thought I was doing when I did the ash/salt thing. sigh.  Too much milk, too many batches of cheese and it all runs together. 
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 09, 2012, 04:54:19 PM
You can still apply the mold to the outside of the cheese just to be safe.  I haven't applied it over ash, but I can't think why that would be a problem.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 12, 2012, 11:12:00 PM
Used this to make grilled cheese sandwhiches today.  It melts beautifully.  My 5 year old daughter said "These are the best cheese sandwhiches in the world!", so I'm taking that as a positive :)  My daughter has one of the most sophisticated palettes for a 5 year old I've ever seen.  This has a definate washed rind taste (very good), though not as strong as some more intense makes it is not subtle either.  This make has been a really big hit.  Overly moist for a tomme, but a good cheese nonetheless.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 14, 2012, 04:20:54 AM
Now there's a 5-year-old who obviously knows quality when she tastes it. Kudos to you for tweaking her cheese palate.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 14, 2012, 05:45:44 AM
Thanks Boofer!  She's got a wide range of "likes" when it comes to food in general, which is great, but I'm amazed at what cheeses she eats and likes!  Blues and washed rinds are yummy, and she likes aged sharp cheddar, and bries and cams, etc.  And, she likes brussel sprouts (but so do I, so I think I know where she gets her food acceptance gene from! :) )

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 17, 2012, 04:21:09 PM
Give her time... I seem to remember my daughter didn't get picky until she was older.  Then she didn't like anything and now that she's an adult she misses all the cooking she turned her nose up at earlier!  Too bad children don't come with instruction manuals!
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 17, 2012, 06:59:03 PM
LOL!  True, but I can dream.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 20, 2012, 05:05:26 PM
We finished the first half of this cheese, and I've "de-bagged" the second.  The rind firms up when it's out of the bag as it dries out a bit more, and so it's interesting to be back with the very soft version.  Anyway, made grilled cheese sandwhiches again at the inistance of my daughter (who has decided that grilled cheese sandwhiches are now a tradition on Saturdays). 

So, despite this not being true to form, it remains a very popular cheese.  Nice. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 20, 2012, 06:58:10 PM
That sounds like a wonderful tradition to me!  :P  It's amazing how many cheese's make meltingly, mouth watering, totally sinful grilled cheese sandwiches (even blues).  Glad your new style of cheese was a success. For your inventiveness have another slice of cheese.   :)
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tomer1 on October 20, 2012, 09:32:31 PM
I love grilled cheese on dry sourdough bread with some spread butter for extra crispiness.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 20, 2012, 11:58:43 PM
I've taken to brushing the sourdough (the chewier & crustier the better)with olive oil and crushed garlic, but sometimes only butter will do.  Is there life without sourdough, or grilled cheese?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on October 21, 2012, 12:10:08 AM
Try adding some shaved ham to the grilled cheese....yum! Or I also like 2 different cheeses grilled.
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Alpkäserei on October 21, 2012, 02:13:25 AM
homemade bread and hard smoked/cured sausages go well with such cheese too
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 22, 2012, 05:06:15 AM
Is it too late to join this party?  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on October 22, 2012, 05:08:16 AM
Never too late for photo's like that!  Yum!

Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 22, 2012, 03:55:14 PM
Easy with those photos! They're killing my waistline!  Is that your cheese with cumin Boofer?  How did you like it?
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 22, 2012, 11:12:12 PM
I've taken to brushing the sourdough (the chewier & crustier the better)with olive oil and crushed garlic, but sometimes only butter will do.  Is there life without sourdough, or grilled cheese?

Yum!!  Reminds me of when I used to soften sundried tomatoes with just a bit of water on low heat.....just enough to make them soft enough to chew easily and then I'd crush a whole LOT of garlic and make a 50/50 mix of sundried tomatoes and garlic and then put a half inch layer on a slab of bread.  No trouble with vampires for sure!!!  We still keep a jar of olive oil with lots of crushed garlic in the fridge for dipping or slathering any time of night or day.  Garlic is an important part of what makes eating fun, along with cheese of course!   ;D
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Boofer on October 23, 2012, 12:17:07 AM
Is that your cheese with cumin Boofer?  How did you like it?
The caption on the pic says it all...and I love it!  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: anutcanfly on October 24, 2012, 02:18:40 PM
 The caption!  :-[  This is why I've walked into so many telephone poles during my life!  I'm continuously amazed at how often I fail to see the obvious!  ::)

That does sound good Tiarella.  I'll have to try that way.  I normally just let my tomatoes simmer for hours.  I use at least 10 cloves of garlic in a quart of sauce.  You just can't have too much garlic!  :P
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on October 24, 2012, 08:35:21 PM
Viva le garlic! My favorite herb....I will say: "Can never have too much garlic" and my wife will reply: "oh yeah, you can!"   ;)

Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 24, 2012, 10:10:12 PM
Aaaaah, I am among my people!!!!  Garlic lovers unite!!!   ;D
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: BobE102330 on October 24, 2012, 10:32:00 PM
My sweetie says you cannot have too much garlic or make the coffee too strong. She's a keeper! 8)
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on October 25, 2012, 03:26:56 AM
Definite keeper!!  I'm glad for you.  My honey is of Italian descent so needless to say that he loves garlic.  We were heartbroken when it seemed he was allergic to it for a while.....I didn't know how to cook without it.  Luckily he gave up on avoiding it and life was worth living once again!  I routinely use at least 1 head of garlic per dinner.  It's time to plant next year's crop this weekend.....I think I'm late this year.  Harvested enough this summer for more than a head each day so I feel good about the coming winter!
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on November 02, 2012, 11:30:52 PM
Had the last piece today.  It was good to the end.  Yum.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My First Tomme
Post by: bbracken677 on November 03, 2012, 01:28:06 PM
haha  Definitely a success then!  A cheesy poof for you, Jeff!