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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Tiarella on October 06, 2012, 10:47:57 PM

Title: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 06, 2012, 10:47:57 PM
Hi All,  a question.....haven't really done much of these cheeses yet and this is my first leaf-wrapped batch.  Do I pat down the mold on these?  Anything else I should know?  And....thought you might want to see some cool mold/leaf photos......  the last photo is what the leaf wrapped cheeses looked like before all the bloom.   Sooooo, to pat down or not pat down. Enquiring cheese mind wants to know.  Please also post photos of your excursions into leaf wrapping if you have any.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: hoeklijn on October 07, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
Hi Tiarella, what a beauties! I never tried this, there's so much I want to do and learn... What kind of leaf are you using?
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 07, 2012, 11:42:09 AM
Thank you!  It is a Scented Cranesbill  (latin name "Geranium bikova")  This is the true Geranium, not the annual called Geranium in the US which is really a Pelargonium.  The leaves of the Scented Cranesbill are not hairy (the way many fragrant leaves are)  but they are quite scented when you gently press them or rumple them.  It is not the juice of the leaf so there must be some scent glands on the surface of the leaf.  Besides the lovely shape of the leaf I thought perhaps the oils of the scent might have an impact and didn't think they would inhibit mold growth.  I was inspired by a photo of a "Yarg" cheese here  http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/0/19629189 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/0/19629189)  (found out later that the name came from taking the family name (Gray) of the original producers and spelling it backwards)   Anyway......the beauty of that photo made me want to try some of the leaves I have.  Now I have to quickly save any leaves I might want to use over the winter because colder weather is here suddenly!

Oh, and if you want to do this......I mentioned this on another Valencay thread but here's what I did.  I harvested the leaves dry, stacked them and vacuum sealed them, put in freezer.  Took out of freezer and carefully pulled them apart and they were limp enough to stick easily to the cheeses just after ash/salting.  Here's a photo of the one I used that you mention.  I also used nettle leaves but they are not so interesting.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: hoeklijn on October 08, 2012, 10:32:46 AM
Thanks for the info, again something on my list-of-things-to-try. I also want to use sometimes leaves from the grapes in my garden...
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 11, 2012, 11:41:52 AM
Herman,  I had a picture in my head after reading your post about using grape leaves from your garden.  I saw in this vision a cheese that was not only wrapped in grape leaves but when you unwrapped it there were some grape skins on the cheese......   Imagine cutting a grape in half pulling skin off and sticking it to the cheese.  I have no idea if this would work......there are a lot of yeasts on a grape skin and the remaining residue of fruit on the skin would supply sugars.  Hmmm, not sure about my idea but it might be worth trying on one small cheese perhaps.  do you have a sense of what it might do?  You have a lot more experience than me.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Boofer on October 11, 2012, 01:47:18 PM
Imagine cutting a grape in half pulling skin off and sticking it to the cheese.
Oh, Dear, peel me a grape. Matter-of-fact, peel me a bunch!

That was the vision I had just now.  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: hoeklijn on October 11, 2012, 05:13:55 PM
You have a lot more experience than me.
 

Don't over estimate me, I have now about a 3 years experience in cheese making. That not much compared with a lot of other people here.
And the variety of cheeses I made is also not so enormous.... And I hate to throw away failures, so my experiments were not as brave as yours  ;D.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 11, 2012, 11:12:34 PM
Such beautiful cheeses T!  Thanks for posting your photos and notes.  I've only made Valencay once so far, but loved it and will make it again.  I can imagine these with arugula or oregano leaves.  Boundless possibilities.  I'm anxious to see your tasting notes.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 12, 2012, 12:03:57 AM
Hi Spellogue,
Well apparently Valencay style is not really supposed to be wrapped.  I got inspired by a photo of the English cheese called Yarg and to me it looked like an ashed cheese but apparently it isn't so my inspiration started off on the wrong foot.  BUT......I am still hopeful.  When you made Valencay were they heavy?  Mine are so heavy I can't imagine them ever being something to eat.  I'm hoping to learn how to wrap other kinds of cheeses in leaves in the style that I did this batch....I mean, not as a "wrapping" but adhered and allowing the rind to show. 
Did you look at the Yarg link I posted on this thread.  Oooh, that looks good to me.  I do love to eat but I'm very visually oriented as well so I want to make interesting looking cheeses.  Do you have any ideas of a cheese style that might work with adhered leaves?  And don't know if you saw my smoked paprika/olive oil paste rubbed cheese but that one just started showing signs of pc mold on it.  I'm not sure what to do about it since if I brush it briskly the paste will get scrubbed off.  I may just try spot treating it and see if the paste rind gets strong enough to take a brushing, even if I have to wait for a moldy natural rind to develop.  I had thought that the mold wouldn't grow on the paprika but was wrong. 
Oh, and iratherfly did tell me to pat down the pc on the leaf wrapped cheeses and to move to a cooler fridge so they are stuffed into my fridge, still in their mini-caves, and I guess I need to look up how long to let them age or develop in there.  The leaf wrapped ones are really pretty to me.  The one looks almost like a snowflake pattern.  A great holiday cheese if I can figure out how to do it right......maybe on some other kind of cheese.  Maybe a Tomme or Caerphilly? 
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 12, 2012, 01:58:10 AM
Yes,  my Valencays were dense and seemed heavy for their size.  I was surprised at how different they were than the other bloomies that I made, but pleasantly so.  I made them in the classic pyramid shape, two large ones and two small ones.  Glad I bought those different sized molds.  We ate the little, faster aging ones first.  The last one made it to 3 1/2 months.  I wanted to age one to grating texture, but couldn't, they were too tasty.  They turned out true to style, a firm translucent 3/8in edge inside the rind.  Less than I can say for my 1st Pouligny-St-Pierres.  I found out that they should have been similar in texture to the Valencays, not creamy with a liquefying edge like they were.  I'll make them with those notes again too though, since they were divinely tasty nevertheless.

On that note, I think it is great to experiment and riff on the classics.  I give you a cheese for these efforts.  What you created may be neither a Valencay, nor a Yarg, but are your own inspired creations.  They look to be progressing nicely, and I expect they'll be delectable.

I just looked at the link.  That nettle embossed cheese does look to be a natural rind.  The PC on your cheeses could grow over the cranesbill leaves. But after the first flush, tapping it back as iratherfly suggested may allow them to show through again.  The the rind on my Valencays slowed down considerably after week two or three.  Even if you can't see them clearly I should think the leaves will contribute some nuances to the cheese.  Keep us posted.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 12, 2012, 02:33:55 AM
Thank you for the cheese.  How long do you suggest I age these puppies?  I just cut into one of the basket mold ones and it's dense, yup.  But the flesh is a pleasing taste and I like how creamy white the color is.  It's likely to get better but I had so many and they were taking up so much room I just had to try one.  Of course, I didn't try the leaf wrapped ones.  Those will come later.
Do you have photos of your  Valencay style?  Mine don't have that translucent edge yet but I had to check it out at least....
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 12, 2012, 03:46:47 AM
Here is one that I cracked open at 30 days, but I liked the ones we ate between 50 and 100 days even better.  My cheeses aged slowly I would guess since they were aged at lower temps in the fridge (38-40F).  I like my cams aged 6-8 weeks at these temps.  It seems these ash coated PC rinds can go longer than the straight white bloomy rinds. 

Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 12, 2012, 11:48:22 AM
NICE photo!!  Thanks for sharing.  I love how white and creamy the paste appears on these.  Mary Karlin's book says to wrap in paper 4 weeks after the start of ripening and store in fridge after that and consume by 6 weeks.  iratherfly thought I should take mine out of wine fridge, pat down a LOT to slow PC growth and put in kitchen fridge to help slow it down.  It's pretty well patted down and it's been in the fridge now for 2 days and I'm thinking of moving it back to wine fridge. 

I appreciate hearing how long you aged your Valencays.  Did you wrap them?  At what point?  How were they mostly aged?  (wrapped or unwrapped, container or not?)  I'll attach photos of my patted down ones and the one I cut into.  The lighting on the cut open photo isn't bright enough so the paste looks like a craggy cliff but it was extremely white and creamy.  Notice on the patted down nettle cheese that the mold is growing right through the leaf or covering over it.  The Scented Cranesbill leaves are not experiencing this.  Not sure if the scented aspect of the leaf holds back the mold a bit or not.  It's a very light scent but of course I don't know the makeup of the oils that create it. 

The two photos of the Scented Cranesbill cheese show different ends of it with different patterns of leaves.  I like the snowflake effect. I think I should pick a bunch of these leaves, vacuum pack and freeze for further experimentation.  I picked, then steamed and put in bath of brandy a bunch of heart-shaped redbud leaves yesterday.  I either need to figure out some extremely small molds to make tiny cheeses that can be wrapped in 1 leaf  (about 6X6") or figure out a way to wrap in more than one leaf.  Have you seen tiny molds? 

Maybe if I could find cheap (but non-reactive material) tea strainers I could use those and make single serving cheeses wrapped in heart-shaped leaves.  That could be beautiful and cute AND tasty perhaps.  Hmmmmm.  I also plan to experiment with birch bark as a wrapping but I'm not sure what type of cheese and what part of the make to apply it for.  Creative input welcome!
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 12, 2012, 12:00:03 PM
Forgot to mention that patting down this mold was like patting down rubber......it didn't stay down totally even after I got quite firm with it and it is quite firmly staying thick!  I probably should have patted it down days before but no one had answered my query on that so I might have missed an opportunity to have more of a "light weight patting" experience.  You can see in the photos that the mold still is higher than the level of the leaves.  I don't know what impact  this thickness of mold will have on aging and flavor but I guess I'll find out.  Hope it doesn't smother the cheese.  It is VERY thick and resilient. 
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 12, 2012, 12:03:06 PM
Imagine cutting a grape in half pulling skin off and sticking it to the cheese.
Oh, Dear, peel me a grape. Matter-of-fact, peel me a bunch!

That was the vision I had just now.  ::)

-Boofer-

Boofer, is your name "Goofer" instead??   ;D  That was funny.  I can just imagine you reclining with your favorite cheese books, surrounded by your cheeses (all on their own pedestals) with you being fed peeled grapes. 
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Boofer on October 12, 2012, 05:10:36 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much my life.  ;)

Hey, not so fast with the palm fronds...you're creating too much of a breeze and drying out the lactics!  ::)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 12, 2012, 05:38:19 PM
I find that cranesbill cheese just stunning.

I aged in a ripening box for just under a month in the fridge that whole time (would have used a cave if I had one).  When I wrapped I set them in a shallow Tupperware container and covered loosely with plastic wrap.  That dropped the humidity significantly and nearly halted the rind bloom.  The plastic wrap did enough to keep the cheeses from drying out.  I might develop the PC rind a bit more on the next batch. My PC growth wasn't as aggressive as yours,  didn't show for close to 10 days.  Probably due to the lower temps.  Did you inoculate the milk with the molds like I did, or spray it on after forming? We at the last one a few days ago (about 70 days old). Biggest difference from the earlier ones was a thicker line of translucency under the rind which I really liked.  The paste was still just barely chalky and the flavor had mellowed a bit.  They weren't particularly citrusy though,  I wonder if a longer ripening before adding the rennet might have deleoped a bit more of the classic lemony tang.    I'll cut back on the ash next time too.  I felt a hint of grit  where it was coated a little thick, especially on the bottoms where the curd surface wasn't as smooth.

Here are my notes on this make:

CA8K  Valencay type. 8/3/12
 2 gallon goat milk 80
Starter culture 1/4 tsp meso 101
1/64 tsp pen. cand
1/32 tsp geo. cand
Stand 2 hrs 
Calf rennet 1/16 tsp
2 1/2 hrs. coagulation time
Cut 1/2 inch slices no rest.
Fill   4 pyramid and  1 yogurt tub molds  
drain 36 hrs
Mix 1/4 cup ash with 3 1/2 tsp salt
Remove from molds and coat w/ ash mixture 
Move to ripening box.  Flip every day or two for 25 days.
Wrap and store for another 2-4 weeks.
Affinage:
Nice bloom for over two weeks now a/o 8/30 couldn't wait and cracked one open,  so glad I did.  It should do well with more age but the taste and texture was so nice with a 2008 Washington Hills Sav Blanc.  Edges and corners just beginning to turn transluscent.   Vibrant, yet smooth, a bit of salt, a bit of grit.  Worth sacrificing another small one this weekend.  
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 13, 2012, 11:44:34 AM
HI Spellogue,  Thanks for including your make notes.  I put the PC and Geo in with the milk.  I sprayed my Brie the first time as well but my sprayer bottle always clogs and mixing it up fresh seemed more expensive and a pain than just adding it.  The PC bloom is massive as you can see in the photos so it's working although I don't know if the variety of PC I used is so agressive it didn't give the Geo a chance or if I just didn't notice the Geo.  You used a higher concentration of ash than I.  I went with iratherfly's recommendation of 1 part ash to 5 salt.  It still seemed very dark but the one try I did had no hint of grit.  Of course the ash I have is so fine that I don't know if I'd notice grit no matter how much I used.

I'm glad you too are stunned by the Scented Cranesbill leaf pattern.  I very much like it.  We were told we'd have a hard freeze last night  (down to 24 degrees) so we spent all yesterday gathering in the produce, herbs to dry, etc.  What a hectic day.  In the midst of it I realized I'd need to pick and save any leaves I wanted for cheese making all winter.  I picked about 60 of those leaves and vacuum packed them and put in freezer.  I wish I had a way to get them to you safely because I'd be glad to mail you some to play with.  If they survived the overnight temps and if you can give me some ideas for how to preserve them during shipping I'd love to send you some to see what you can come up with.  Maybe between us we can further the ideas and successes of those leaves in cheese making.  If some survived last night and I put them in a brandy/water mix I think they might last okay for shipping.  I'd put them in a jar, tighten lid and pack carefully.  Any other ideas?  For instance, if I made a Caerphilly, how would I put the leaves on?  And perhaps it'd be best to do a "moldy" rind with PLA?  I don't know anything about this kind of thing....innoculating to get the best rind flora going, etc.  I think that's one thing I'd like to try.  What about you?  I love how the leaves look with the PC growing because it looks like snow but I don't yet know whether it's going to enhance the cheese or actually detract from the ripening because it's blocking PC growth on a fair percentage of the cheese.  I just looked out the window and I'm guardedly optimistic that the leaves were sheltered enough by the other plants over it and that our whole clearing in the forest was warmer than they predicted and that the leaves are fine.  I can harvest more perhaps.  I'll check after milking.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 14, 2012, 05:01:38 PM
If you lay smooth the wilted leaves onto a tacky rinsed cheese I would think they would adhere well enough, even as the rind dries.  You could try waxing with a clear or translucent wax. Hoeklijn posted about a clear cheese coating product a while back.  I might suggest the brandy soaked leaves under wax to cut down on possibilities of contamination.

I might take you up on the offer of some cranesbill.  I may have seen it in passing around here, but I can't recollect where.  We've only had a couple light frosts south of Lake Erie so far, not enough to kill the tomato  ines yet, and the forcast is for staying above freezing for another week   I know what you mean about racing the weather and the clock.  Cheesemaking is winding down with the girls' production slowing for the year. I normally dry them off completely 2-3 weeks before breeding in November. 

I'm looking forward to trying some violets embedded in some rinds in the spring.  I always want to candy some, but never get to it in the height of a busy kidding season.  Cheesemaking, on the other hand, waits for no man.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 14, 2012, 07:03:28 PM
Hi Spellogue,  I can send you a bit of plant and a bunch of leaves if you'd like.  it's a particular cranesbill not that common and I think it has the nicest leaves for this use of the cranesbills I've seen.  I have other nice ones but the leaves are fleshier and have some hair so not that similar.  The freeze wasn't as bad as they predicted so the plant is fine.  I'll do a small test of putting some in brandy to see what that does in case that's the best way to ship them. Got any other ideas for how I could get leaves to you?  I know I can ship plant to you so that you'll have plenty to experiment with next year but it would be fun to have a mad scientist cohort experimenting with them this year.  I'm making Caerphilly today with the hopes of a natural rind that includes some of those leaves but I'm not sure how to go about it.  Gianaclis' book says to pat down the mold but not brush so that will help to not dislodge the leaves but I'm not sure how to get the good molds happening since I don't have a well innoculated cellar. I thought of adding PLA to the make but didn't......need something to get good molds growing...any hints/ideas anyone??????

What is the reason you dry your does off before rebreeding?  Most farms seem to dry off 2 months before next kidding.  I'm actually going to not rebreeding my 5 milking does and milk them through.  I'll just breed my 4 young does from this spring.  This is the first time I've gone for milking through and I hope it works well although it means no break from milking.  I had 7 does give birth last year and it was just too many babies, too many to disbud and too much shuffling around to kidding stalls, then regrouping, etc.  We dam raise with a lot of human contact to get friendly babies and 14 babies this spring was more than we could easily handle!   ;). I had told each doe  to have singles or twins but only 3 listened. 
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Spellogue on October 14, 2012, 11:44:28 PM
My family gets tired of milking right about the time the temperature drops, so we give the does, and ourselves a long break.  We get a lot of triplet, so we like them to bulk up a bit before their second trimester.  We started bottle raising a couple of years ago, that means we have to start milking right after they kid.  It'll be non-stop milking from April on.  As much as we miss the milk, we don't miss the milking in December. 

I just made a Caerphilly that I plan to wax tonight, just looking for an cast-off pan or something for a melting vessel.

As for natural mold growth others will know better how to encourage the most desirable strains.  For what it's worth, I have a tomme in the fridge that grew what it wanted to grow without any interference from me.  It's looking pretty nice.  I'm just trying to decide how long to let is go.
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 15, 2012, 01:16:28 AM
I hear you about appreciating a break in the milking!  I wish!!  I still have to separate the young does from their moms to fully wean them.  They still have access to nurse during the day although they are big.  I'm waiting for another stall/paddock combo to open up after some early winter butchering.  Then I'll wean them.  I'd love a break from milking but won't get one with milking through.  can't see a way around it though if I don't want to have trillions of babies again.

Do you have an idea for how I can prepare some of those leaves to get them to you?  And would you post a photo of your natural rind Caerphilly?  I seem to get PC and wild blues on my cheeses and I'm not sure what to do to lessen the wild blues (if that's appropriate) and attract other options.  That's also what concerns me about doing a leaf adorned natural rind Caerphilly.  I could mist it with PLA that I have.  ????
Title: Re: leaf-wrapped Valencay-style question
Post by: Tiarella on October 17, 2012, 12:24:23 AM
It's me again......getting creative about leaf-wrapping these Valencay style cheeses.  I wanted to open one to check it out.  I noticed that one had a little bit of slipskin even though it's buddy in the same mini-cave didn't.  I had used a container that wasn't big enough for a lid to fit so I'd put a loose plastic bag over it with toothpicks in the cheese holding the bag off them.  It's there that the slipskin seems the most loose and an issue. 

So with a reason to open one I decided to try out the Redbud tree leaves I'd harvested and stored in brandy.  I patted the leaves dry and decided to experiment with how they might work if I had some small cheeses.  I cut slices of the Valencay style  (style but not shape.....these ones were fat pillars in shape) and those were still too big to wrap in these leaves  (leaves about 6"X6") so I cut them in half to make half rounds.  I wanted skewers that were long enough to go in one side and out the other to hold the leaf but had to settle for half toothpicks.  I like how the leaf stems are almost like little handles.

Any idea if these would further develop in the regular fridge?  Or in the wine fridge?  They no longer have the protection of a rind but they do have the leaf wrapping.  It will allow some air into the leaf package but not a lot.  This cheese is tasty now but not a lot of flavor except near the rind.