CheeseForum.org » Forum
CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: g8shot1 on October 23, 2009, 01:26:32 PM
-
Hi,
We attempted our first cheese beyond mozz and ricotta on Monday the 19th. We used 3 gallons of raw cow milk. Here is what it looked like:
(http://www.jmd.org/cheese/cheddar-wheel.jpg)
The process we're following says to flip this every 12 hours for 1-3 days until we see a yellowish tint and feels dry to the touch, then wash with saltwater, wax and age.
It really doesn't seem dry to the touch yet and we are just now beginning to see some yellowish tint on the edge, do we continue to wait? I'm unsure of the humidity but the temp is around 68f.
-
Wait.
Let it dry out or the water will get under the wax and create troubles. Sailor Con Queso will probably come along soon and discuss pressing pressures with you. Your cheese was made with the same mold I used for mine 2 weeks ago (my 14th cheese, first cheddar). If you still have a lot of moisture in the cheese, you might have needed more weight on press: I began at 50lbs., upped to 70lbs., pressed for over 48 hours to get whey out, but was told I needed well over 150 lbs. on the mold if I wanted the prescribed 24 hour press.
I also dried mine for a full week before waxing, letting the outside dry nicely. We'll see what comes out of it in....oooohh.... 3 more months, perhaps 6 or 10 months.
-
WOW. Thanks for the reply. This is far different than the process we used. We pressed with 4lbs for 15 minutes then with 8lbs for 12 hours. The pic is just after the 12 hour pressing.
-
Baby Chee is dead on. ::) No, I'm not going to start the PSI debate again, but you pressed way to light. 8 pounds on a wheel that size is nothing. However, I can see dimple marks from the mold. I would not expect that from an 8 pound pressing. Did you use cheesecloth? It is very important, especially on a cheddar, to press hard enough. Oherwise you will end up with a lot of whey left in the cheese that will become acidic and sour your cheese.
Did you salt the curds before pressing?
-
We salted (3 tbsps) the curds and hand mixed them prior to putting them into the mold. The mold was lined with cheesecloth, salted curds added, 4lbs of weight for 15 minutes, flipped the wheel and returned to cheesecloth lined press and put 8lbs on it for 12-15 hours. Then we removed the wheel and put it on a bamboo mat and covered with cheesecloth.
-
Great looking cheese! I just love seeing a cheese fresh out of the press. My kids stand around laughing at my obsession sometimes.
I am coming to the conclusion that the type of cloth material you use to press in has a lot to do with drying time. I have recently used a fine material almost like good sheet material and the cheese comes out very slick to the touch and it drys very fast even in high humidity. The coarser cloth makes the surface rougher and it takes longer. In any case, dry time is always unpredictable and you just have to go by touch most of the time.
The pressing issue is important. if you just used a one gallon recipe and multiplied the ingredients by 3 then remember that the weight given assumed a certain size hoop appropriate for that amount of curd.
Also did you use the stirred curd method of cheddaring? If so, I do not believe you have to press it as hard as normal cheddaring because the curds always seem drier in normal cheddaring and it is harder to get them to knit therefore more pressure is needed. This may not be right but it is certainly my experience. I am not convinced that the pressure is related to surface drying time though. I believe it is more about knitting and whey expulsion internally. (Someone correct me if wrong) But you do need more pressure I believe dependant on the size of your hoop...
I just noticed that sailor entered the discussion and refrained himself mightily from debating psi. Unbelievable! I laughed out loud reading the bantering between you two in the other thread (babychee and sailor). As far as pressure goes, you know where I stand: More is better in cheddar! It was hard to keep from entering the fray. I wanted to post this pic when debi mentioned just using a rock. john linked it the other day for me. This was a guy after my own heart. No pulleys levers or pistons just place a rock on the follower! ;D
-
John,
I laughed so hard I thought I was going to pass out. Made my day.
Any guess on the weight of that puppy? Definitely more than 30 pounds. :D
BTW - I give up on explaining PSI. I won't go down that road again.
-
One cubic yard of concrete weighs 3,915 lbs. the rock appeared to be about 3x4x4 ft which is 48 cubic feet or 1.78 cubic yards. Therefore the rock probably weighs 6968 lbs. Dividing this by the area of the hoop which appears to me about 18-20 inches in diameter (could be wrong here, might even be smaller- i am using 20 for the math), you get 22 psi. An 18 in hoop would produce 27 psi. I think they knew what they were doing. I would love to have this in my yard. :) It kind of helps you visualize the real pressure those little double levers are producing.
-
They probably had more than one cheese under there. Coulda stacked 20 or more molds up under that rock. If not, that's a LOT of hassle for one cheese a day.
Jim & Rose: that mold works great with Gouda @ 50 lbs. for 12 hours. I love my gouda cheeses done in there. Cheddar needs far more pressure, being a far denser cheese. There was a discussion about the factor of time into the equation, and it seems to have worked for me: more time with less weight. You should get a lot more weight on your cheddar, though; time alone might not help 8 lbs of weight.
-
I figured the number of 12 inches cheeses at about 12 (3 along one side and 4 along on the other). Using these numbers you still get over 5 psi which means over 500 lbs per hoop of 12 inch cheese. If you stacked them (it looks like three high wouldn't be a stretch) and only put 6 cheeses per layer you would have 18 cheeses and still have 10 psi or 1000 lbs per cheese. The most you could get stacking 3 high and still maintain 20 psi (which is my goal for cheddar) would be 9 cheeses 12 inches in diameter. :)
Jim and Rose, sorry I sort of hijacked the thread. We are just having a little fun with the pressing issue. Babychee mentioned several threads discussing this and here is one http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2245.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2245.0.html) and here is another http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2310.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2310.0.html) of the recent ones. I haven't been here long so I am sure there are other ones possibly more informative but in one of these I think someone (sailor or debi) attached a chart for calculating your psi for certain hoop sizes. If you want to discuss it further or if any of this didn't make sense don't hesitate to ask. Good luck with your cheddar and be sure to keep us updated on how it turns out.
-
The cheese looks lovely. Cheese cloth does seem to hold the moisture in for some reason. Let it dry - time is hard to judge sometimes. Just feel it.
Somehow I am getting credit for using rock to press cheese. What I said was I saw a post of an artisan cheese maker that posted a recipe stating he placed a big rock on his cheese. I didn't do it. I use mostly milk jugs filled with whey and #10 cans of tomatoes!
I do agree that cheddar requires more pressure than most cheese but my point was that not all cheeses require ton of weight - like muester.
That is not a rock that looks like a counterweight for something really big!
-
Just having a little fun at your expense. ;D I couldn't resist and you seem pretty good natured.
-
I think it was a swiss maker not an Italian cheese maker! :D
-
I think I may have a terminology problem.
I went back to the recipe and verified that for farmhouse cheddar, I used the amount of pressing weight that the recipe calls for.
The traditional cheddar recipe in the same booklet calls for a slightly different process and pressing schedule. Ignoring the process differences for now, the traditional cheddar recipe calls for a 10lb weight for 15 minutes, a 40lb weight for 12 hours, a 50lb weight for 24 hours then rub with saltwater and dry for a few days.
Our farmhouse cheddar looks like this today(pardon the focus, in a hurry today):
(http://www.jmd.org/cheese/cheddar-wheel2.jpg)
-
I (we?) might be mistaken. I've never seen such a recipe before. Where did you get it from?
Cheddar is, of course, more about acidifying the cheese for sharper flavor than pressing into a block of instant constipation. So, you'll probably have a soft cheddar. I'm not certain how all that excess moisture still in your cheese will work under wax: it could seep out and cause fermentation under the wax.
Instructions on cheesemaking aren't always accurate. Books and resources can often contradict each other and be erroneous. If you do create a problem cheese, don't get disheartened, because it isn't hard to figure out and go forward again with better results.
-
Was the recipe for 3 gallons? What size is this wheel in the pics? 6"?
It looks like it has knitted well so whatever you did is probably fine. I have seen those numbers in a book but it was for 1- 1.5 gallon recipes I think.
-
That mold is around 7.5" if I recall right. That cheese is either 3 or 3.5 gallons. Could even be 4, but I doubt it.
Hope the cheese retains integrity and doesn't crack. My last two goudas were a little moist and had minor surface cracking just before waxing, not that it is a disaster, just a detail shame.
-
The recipe calls for 3 gallons and that's what we used. The inside diameter of the press is 7.5 inches. The recipe and press came from Leener's.
-
That means 50 lbs of weight equals 1.13 psi. Most cheddar recipes that give the pressure in psi say above 10 for the last pressing. I would at least shoot for 5 but that's just me. Like I said earlier, that is a great looking wheel from the picture so you are ok I think. Good luck!
-
Nothing seems to be strange with this, it's sitting at about 43f and we flip it over once a day. We want to cut this open on Christmas day, about 64 days or so from cook day:
(http://www.jmd.org/cheese/firstwaxedcheddar.jpg)
We're going to head south for a couple months and will take this with us in a cooler of some sort. Any suggestions on transporting this for 1.5 days or so in a car?
-
Sorry, no suggestions for you, but just want to say that the red wax looks beautiful! Very appropriate for a Christmas cheese.
Can't wait to hear how it tastes.
64 days is still a bit young for cheddar. You may want to cut it in half and re-wax the cut edge on half of it then allow that portion to age another couple of months so you can see how age affects cheese.
Good job!
-
@ Sailor Con Queso
Don't give up on explaining psi! It's the only way the pressing recommendations & instructions make sense. I'm a bit of a pedant and when people talk about pressing at a certain weight without referencing the hoop size, it can be quite meaningless...
-
Sailor,
I agree with Michelle....
If someone is not constantly preaching the importance of proper pressing weights, home cheese makers will continue turning out sup-par cheeses.
I can't begin to thank members Wayne Harris and Carter enough for providing me with this information right at a year ago.
Had I not joined this forum and posted a problem with a bad curd knit I would probably still be in the dark as to why this problem existed.
Dave
-
WOW. Thanks for the PSI support group guys. Didn't think anyone was listening. ;) I KNOW that I am making much better cheese since I started thinking in terms of PSI and not just weight. I can confidently go from a 4" to a 6" or an 8" hoop and get consistent results.
Tom & Rose - 43F is awfully cool for aging. Yes, you can, but it will take much longer. 60 days is pushing the limit on minimum aging. You will have a MUCH nicer cheese at 90. Cooler temperatures don't allow acidity and pH to evolve properly and can give bad bacteria from contamination more of a chance to take control. Don't be surprised if this one isn't a little young and acidic tasting if you open it for Xmas. But you can always rewax or vacuum bag and age some more. If you really have your heart set on opening it then, you might want to find a little warmer location (55-60F) for the next few weeks. Since it's waxed, humidity is not as much of a factor.
-
I have recently used a fine material almost like good sheet material and the cheese comes out very slick to the touch and it drys very fast even in high humidity. - FarmerJd
Can you shed a little more light on this please?
-Boofer-
-
Boofer, the sheet (bed sheet) material is probably 200 - 300 thread count. and is not 100% cotton. When the cheese comes out the surface is very slick and it really drys out faster. I am not talking about the inside; just the rind. It also lets go of the cheese much easier. I guess this is because of smaller indentions because of the finer weave or it may be the material. I just ran out of cheesecloth and used this in an emergency and have stuck with it. Here are some pics to compare it with cheesecloth and to show it in the hoop. Having this cloth bucket is a real help to me.
-
Nice looking cheeses guys and gals! FD good idea with the sheet cloth.
-
Neat idea, but I would think the whey would have trouble making its way out because of the fine weave. Not a problem, huh?
Any idea why the rind would be able to dry that much quicker?
-Boofer-
-
Ben it's not really that fine. Looks perfect. I have used linen hankercheifs on firm curded cheese without a problem. It's the soft and delicate curded cheese that are a real PITA to drain!
-
Boofer, I can't say that it is definitely related, just a consistent observation. I am sure that a surface that is slick is easier to dry out than one with an uneven surface where moisture can collect in the lines and crevices, but this may not be the reason. It may have been just coincidence; I was just floating the idea really. Debi is right about this just being for my pressed cheeses. I would never try to use it one a fresh cheese like cream cheese or something that is just drained, but for cheeses in the press the whey comes through fine. I have just had such an easier time with these that I can't help but recommend.
-
Sounds good to me. I will give it a try. Thanks for the tip. That might help to keep the nubbins from forming on the wheel too.
-Boofer-
-
This cheese will sit until at least the first part of February.... It still seems to be fine, we flip it about once per week now instead of once per day.
-
Good luck Jim!
-
Hey everyone, I am new to this forum and glad to find such a bunch of fellow cheese enthusiasts!
I was wondering if anyone can help:
Just made my first farmhouse style cheddar of 2 gal. non-homogenized pasteurized milk on Sunday. After the draining, cheddaring and salting I ended up with fairly dry curd. (could be related to raising the temp. too quickly after cutting the curd). I pressed it at 10 lbs x 15 minutes, turned and pressed at 20 Lbs x 12 hours, turned again for another 20 Lbs x 12 hours.
I was quite surprised to peel off the cheesecloth Monday evening to find a rather dry, matured cheese. It has been out of the press for 6 hours and developed yellow rinding which I wouldn't expect so early on. It is dry to the touch and the drying board shows no signs of humidity accumulated underneath the cheese in the hours it spent on it.
Do you suppose I should wax it so soon? It is now Tuesday evening and I am afraid of losing this cheese as it dries out so fast.
I was thinking of putting it in a closed container with damp paper towel (towel not touching it) overnight to slightly reconstitute it first? Any thoughts? Advice?
-
I would not rush to wax as it could be to damp and form mold UNDER the wax. If you put it in a container that should slow down the drying somewhat. Three days is not much time.
-
Thanks so much. I did wait until today. I figured that it stayed in the kitchen where temperature is a bit high and it may have been too exposed to cooking so I wanted to sanitize the surface. I didn't want to over-salt it though or dry it further because it was a pre-salted curd.
I ended up dipping it in heavy brine this morning; 15 minutes each side. I then washed it off quickly with brandy and let it re-dry. Looked really nice in the evening. Just done waxing it. In the fridge.
This is what it looked like! See can't tell it was dry :)
-
Nice looking cheddars Iratherfly. Debi is right. If the outer skin is drying fast, interior would lock the moisture in and when you open the wax you will see whey allocated in between the wax and the cheese and even some mold started to grow. Dry them slowly under a certain humidity so that they dry evenly and slowly. This happened to me and the cheddar was just looking like feta in wax. I then removed the wax and put them in brine and consumed as feta.
If they turn out to be different than a cheddar, just change the name of the cheese :)
-
Yes, getting a feta wrapped in wax is certainly a good opportunity to rename a cheese. I am becoming the master of mystery cheese lately; I usually name them something like 'Hanselicious' or 'Awkward', depending on my initial response to what was created.
The Cheddars were really dry to the touch by the time I waxed them (Only a faint trace of butterfat feeling on the rind). Eventually they did stay out for 3 days so I suppose it's all fine. I think that based on your advice I should probably play it safe; break one open in 30 days to make sure I don't have to come up with a new name, re-wax it and age 60-90 more days.
-
It seems that all the parties I've been invited to this year are "wine and cheese" tasting parties (and I have no complaint about that!)... All of the cheese I tasted that I *really* liked were muslin wrapped and larded, then aged -- a 3 year old gouda, a 6 year old cheddar as well as a couple others that I don't remember well... A 3 year old beemister comes to mind as well.
This makes me want to try this method out even more, and it would seem that with a cheddar that has a (suspected) high moisture, this would also be the best way to go?
Of course, I may not know what I'm talking about.. :-)
-Michael
-
Sominus, I envy your patience. I wish I could wait so long for cheese. Maybe Yoga or moving to Europe would make me a patient man.
I wonder how proper is aging in wax for so long vs rind aging.
-
Well, 97 days later and I couldn't stand it any longer. I cut the cheese:
(http://www.jmd.org/cheese/cheddar-cut.jpg)
The texture and mouthfeel are ok for a farmhouse type, but the flavor just isn't there yet. I guess you could say somewhat of an acidic taste. I put the large piece into a seal-a-meal thing and vacuum packed it for more aging. I did the same to the smaller piece in a separate bag. I did try to melt it and it melted quickly and uniformly. I think this one just needs more time to get to where it could/should be. We'll try it agin in March I guess.
-
You could just re-wax to seal each half.
I am still waiting on mine. Based on your photo I will probably wait until mid march for the small wheel and april-may for the larger one. The Tomme I made this weekend will be ready before that ...so will the Edam I am going to make this coming weekend. I too hate the wait.
-
Waiting isn't as hard when yo have a full cave a cheeses. Then it's hard to keep track of what is ready. I keep a database so I know what's about to be ready. I was typing them into the outlook calender on my phone but I need to dump some stuff my memory card is full.
-
I have them labeled with a batch number (the recipe will tell me everything down to when was the cow milked and what feed it had - as long as I know). Also, every wheel has a set of dates on it: When it was made or aged, do not open before, best opened at etc.