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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 07:36:54 AM

Title: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 07:36:54 AM
I have been searching for a reasonable cheese vat solution.  I have seen the contributions from others and they were the inspiration for my version.  To complete my cheese vat, I only needed a couple of things.  The list is below with pictures.  There were only two things that were a challenge, cutting the metal and making sure you follow the wiring diagram.  (It's not that complicated but I have done this stuff before and I screwed it up once.  It just tripped the breaker and made me scratch my head.)

Necessary equipment: All free shipping
Commercial food warmer- $82.99 (I bought the Avantco version from webstaurantstore.com)
Digital temperature controller- $24.99 (Bought from anna758595 on Ebay)
6" hotel pan with Lid- $33 at a local restaurant store

Tools:
Phillips head screwdriver
very small flat head screwdriver
Wire stripper
Wire nuts
8 to 12" of electrical wire (any power chord will do)
Metal saw of some kind (I used a pneumatic cutting wheel I got at Harbor freight for $14)

So here we go:

I started  with one of these-
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/avantco-w50-12-x-20-electric-countertop-food-warmer.jpg)

1)The black dial just pulls off, you can tear off the sticker if you like and remove the two screws on the front.

2)Flip the unit over and remove the six screws that hold on the bottom plate. Just know that you are about to void your warranty!   :)

3)Loosen the two screws that hold the temperature probe in place and remove the clips holding the wires to the existing temperature controller.  Remove the temperature controller-
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/IMG_0110.jpg)

You're on your own here for the next step... Please don't cut yourself :)
4)Measure the dimensions you need to cut and scribe them in the metal.  You want this to be precise so the controller fits tight and the pressure clips can hold it in place.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/IMG_0111.jpg)
I know, it looks ugly but be patient.

This is the temperature controller that will fit in the cutout.  Notice the orange pressure clips on the side.  These will slide towards the faceplate and hold everything in place.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/wenkong1.jpg)
The silver tip is the temperature probe which will be fed up through the unit so it can be placed in the milk or double boiler, depending on your approach.
This unit is programmable and will turn the heating element on and off as necessary.

5) Now I will apologize for the lack of pictures.  I thought I had hardware problems because I didn't have any supporting information so I was a little preoccupied.  I finally figured it out though so instead of pictures, I'll give you a wiring diagram.
Again, please be careful here if you do not have a lot of experience.  It's not that difficult but I don't want anyone to get shocked.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/DigitalTemperatureController.jpg)
I needed a few extra pieces of wire and wire nuts to make the connections.

Here is the finished product:
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/IMG_0114.jpg)

You'll notice the hole drilled in the side of the tub for the temperature probe.  This is now sealed with high temperature silicone.

A six inch hotel pan with a lid will fit perfectly and holds almost 5 gallons of milk.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/590241_1.jpg)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/full-size-solid-steam-table-hotel-pan-cover.jpg)

So that is the setup, please let me know if you have questions. 

I hope this is helpful,

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 08:05:09 AM
I like this setup because the steel liner doesn't hold any residual heat so as soon as the temperature reaches the desires point, there is very little carry over so you shouldn't overshoot your temperature.

You can put the thermocouple in the double boiler water or in the milk but the strategy is slightly different. If you place the thermocouple in the water, it works bringing the milk temp up to ripen and holding it there.  The only place where it can be a challenge is when you want to bring the temperature up slowly as you cook the curd.  If you set the thermostat to 102 degrees, you are probably going to get there to quickly.  It might be better to bump the temp up a couple of degrees at a time so the element goes on and off as you progress.

If you put the thermocouple in the milk, you can probably pay less attention while warming the milk and get it there a lot faster.  However, you would still need to be very careful through the process of cooking the curd and you probably run a higher risk of overshooting your temperature target.

Thanks,

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Gustav on June 29, 2011, 02:13:54 PM
How many litres/gallons does it take?
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Boofer on June 29, 2011, 02:32:23 PM
DeepSix, very nice how-to.  8)
This is just what a lot of folks here may be looking for. Getting it put together may be a challenge for most, but there are a lot of do-it-yourselfers out there that should eat this up.

Thanks for the link to Webstaurant.com.

A cheese for your contribution to the cause.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 05:45:51 PM
Gustav- Here is a good reference table for hotel pan capacity.  (this warmer fits full size pans although one could probably use two half size pans if they wanted to make two smaller batches and play with variables to effect the outcome.)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/Steamtable-Pan-Sizes-and-Capacities.jpg)

An 8" deep model does exist but they are hard to find.  This may be the solution I go with because I could put wire racks in the bottom of the double boiler to keep it off the bottom and the pan would stick out the top a couple of inches.  Not really an issue since the water would go most of the way up the sides of the pan. 

This pan is 8" deep and has a capacity of 30.5qt so it would easily work 7 gallons.  It is $127 at eTundra.com which is expensive but if you need extra capacity, it would do the trick. 
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/117951.jpg)


Boofer- I know it is a little intimidating but it should be really straight forward with the wiring diagram.  Cutting the metal was the only challenging thing and I just used what I had on hand.  If anyone out there knows a good way to cut metal like this cheaply and more easily, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks,

Jason

Thanks,

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 05:55:08 PM
I also realized that if you are going to fill these pans to absolute capacity, you probably want some kind of "domed full size hotel pan lid." there are lots of versions but the flat lid sits slightly recessed into the top of the vat so it could keep you from reaching full capacity.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/133236.jpg)

There are also plastic versions with an opening on the end and steel like this one that are hinged in the middle.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Chris_Abrahamson on June 29, 2011, 06:33:05 PM
Very nice, indeed!  Have you tried it out yet? 

Chris
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 08:54:23 PM
Have not made a batch yet but I did run a calibration test, plotting the temperatures over time.  I'll post it soon but I need to graph out the results.

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Boofer on June 29, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
Boofer- I know it is a little intimidating but it should be really straight forward with the wiring diagram.  Cutting the metal was the only challenging thing and I just used what I had on hand.  If anyone out there knows a good way to cut metal like this cheaply and more easily, I'd love to hear it.
Several years ago I had three 15 gallon beer kegs cut for a brewing system. When I tried to do a little additional trimming after getting them home I found out how difficult stainless steel was to deal with. Sorry, I don't have any better ideas for how to do that now.

As it was, the guy that initially did the job used an ox-acetylene torch, I believe.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: ArnaudForestier on June 29, 2011, 11:27:46 PM
Boof, same here.  I welded the brewstand (mild steel), and I had a welder skilled in food-grade stainless do my kegs.  He used a plasma cutter.  Not cheap, but clean.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 29, 2011, 11:34:43 PM
I have a an air compressor and I bought one of these cut off wheels for something a long time ago:  around $12
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/316m2WpX8jL_SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It really was very simple.  I just scribed the lines I wanted to cut and started cutting in the middle.  Then I worked it into the corners to get a clean angle.  Once I decided to use this tool, it only took me about 10 minutes.

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: zenith1 on June 30, 2011, 12:20:28 AM
nice work Jason. I look forward to reading through the data when you get time to post it. Dremel makes a nice little cut off wheel that would handle that task easily.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tiddlypom on June 30, 2011, 01:26:40 AM
Interesting instructions here, thank you. I recently bought one of those little controllers, exactly the same, and currently my father (who is electronically capable where I am not!) is putting together the wiring for me.

Here in Australia it needs an earth wire included, and mine is being fitted into a separate box rather than directly into the equipment as shown here, with two sockets fitted one for 'heating' and one for 'cooling' apparatus. This means it can be used either for heating, eg my slow cooker, (I'm looking forward to playing with sous vide cookery) or for cooling, to bring a cheese cave to an appropriate temperature - currently mine is a corner of my other half's wine fridge but I anticipate outgrowing that and needing to find a cheap 2nd hand fridge somewhere to use with this gadget. I'm sure I thought of a couple of other potential uses too but can't recall them right now...

Hopefully in a few days I will have it back completed and can post pictures.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: smilingcalico on June 30, 2011, 01:27:54 AM
A cheese not only for your ingenuity, but for your great documentation!
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on June 30, 2011, 02:28:27 AM
My company uses stainless steel a lot. This saw will cut it:
http://www.harborfreight.com/high-speed-metal-saw-91753.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/high-speed-metal-saw-91753.html)
From Harbor Freight.
Adjust the air supply to slow it down a bit, use oil on the blade when cutting.
Dave in CT
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeejayDebi on June 30, 2011, 03:10:21 AM
Very nice job Jason. I have an 8 inch deep pan and it holds 7 gallons. They are hard to find and pricey.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 30, 2011, 03:59:36 AM
Here is the data table for the  performance of this vat.  It only has the option of full power on or off so these results should pretty consistent.  I used one gallon of water in the water jacket and five gallons of water in the batch pan. 

Please note that milk may have different thermal properties than water so it could heat faster or slower than what is depicted here.

This graph will expand if you click on it.

(Please note that the power was cut at 50 minutes)

(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/graph1.jpg)


Here is the data table which is probably more useful beyond just visualizing the relationship between the two temps.
I'm not sure why I can't get this to show up bigger... it will expand slightly if  you click on it.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/jasonworks/chart1.jpg)


Conclusions
#1- For a five gallons, the Batch Temperature should lag predictably by 11 degrees behind the Water Jacket Temperature.
#2- The residual/carry over temperature of the batch from the time the unit cuts off should be about 8 to 10 degrees if the Jacket is leading by the full 11 degrees.   This  would be most useful when setting the temperature for ripening the milk. 
#3- This thing heats much too quickly to cook curd slowly so I would recommend bumping it up a degree or two at a time and letting the temperature equalize.  Keeping  the Jacket Temp closer to the Batch Temp  will slow down the process.
#4- The most important residual temp/carry over number is the Water Jacket.  It was only 3 degrees with an  11 degree differential between  it and the Batch.  The carryover would likely be higher if the Batch was closer to it's temp because the batch wouldn't absorb as much of the heat.

#5- After all of this, I think what Ive realized is that unless you can control the amount of heat the element is producing, you can never "set it and forget it."   That being said, this setup should be an easy way to control your temperature in a very precise way without taking your vat in and out of the water.  If anyone else ends up using this set up, I be very interested to hear your insights on how to most effectively put this thing to work.

Done!  WooHoo!
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on June 30, 2011, 05:32:37 AM
Tiddlypom,

I don't know if this helps but I posted a cheese cave/curing box design here: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7377.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7377.0.html)

I use it for curing meats which requires a lot tighter tolerances but the setup works very well.  (I took the basic design from some research I did on several other people's work... I'm not trying to take credit for the design, I just thought I could explain it in detail so people didn't have to do as much research as I did when I started.)

Good Luck,

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tiddlypom on June 30, 2011, 12:11:18 PM
Thanks Jason, I shall study in detail before making any decisions :)
Elaine
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Fatman on July 20, 2011, 02:57:08 PM
Jason,

Very nice job.
Do you have plans to make/sell one with the larger pan?

This would be an awsome tool not just for cheese but canning as well.

Whats the largest size you can make?
wanting to can some gallon jars soon.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on July 22, 2011, 05:56:19 PM
Hey there,

Sorry for the late reply.  This is all just a hobby and tinkering for me so I'm really not prepared to start building and selling them.  That is why I put my design out there for everyone.  I have suggested to a couple of people that they might try finding a handyman on Craigslist.  This project only needs someone with a few basic (though specialized) tool and the ability to read a wiring diagram.  That is probably cheaper than me trying to build and ship them.

If anyone needs help finding the exact parts, I am glad to help.

The warming unit itself is a standardized depth of  about seven inches or so.  It is only designed to accommodate a six inch deep hotel pan.  I have not tried it but I think an  8" hotel pan could work just fine and give you additional  capacity.  You would just need something in the bottom  of the unit, in the water, to lift the pan off of the bottom  but still allow the water to circulate.  The 8" deep pan would then stick out the top a couple of inches but that should not be an issue since so much of the surface area is in  contact with the water.  (Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to post pics but if anyone is unsure of what I am describing for an 8" deep hotel pan, let me know and I'll detail it with pics.)

Take care,

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Fatman on July 22, 2011, 10:19:13 PM
I really like the concept.
I already found all the parts.
I actually think there might be a way to add the digital control without all the hacking.
I haven't decided yet if this is the way I'm going to go or not.
As for the 8' pan a few 2" strips of Stainless and a few beers to bribe my buddy will get me a spacer.
For a test you could probable frame it with wood.

Sort of kicking around an idea to use a immersion element and a high temp recirculation pump setup in such a way as to be portable from one pot to another allowing me to up size without much hassle.
Any double boiler combo would work.
The only thing going in the pot would be a suction line and a return line all the mechanical would be under the counter.

But I do like the scale of your device while what I'm thinking of can go from small to very large without much effort.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tiddlypom on July 23, 2011, 12:54:15 AM
This is another way of using precisely the same little 'box of tricks'. Between my father and my son it has now been wired up as a standalone gadget that can be plugged into any appliance, either to limit heating of a heater, or to limit cooling of a fridge or freezer. So far I have only tried it once yesterday afternoon, on my slow cooker. This proved less than satisfactory as the pottery insert of the slow cooker heated up substantially before the 4 litres of water within it heated, and after reaching temp of 25C and switching off (gadget working perfectly here) the pottery then released its heat into the water and raised it another 5c before it started cooling down again.

Here is the front of the 'gadget'.
It is mounted in a box for electrical safety.
From left to right, the connections are: white socket for cooling items, white socket for heating items, black temperature gauge (pop it into whatever you want to measure the temp of), and white plug to go in the wall socket.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/ozipom/Tempgadgetfront.jpg)

And here is the back - thanks Dad for a lovely neat and safe job!
Heating and cooling sockets are more clearly marked than the photo suggests :)

Now I just need to tour Ebay and the local op shops until I find something more suitable to connect it up to... I'm thinking something like a canning water bath, and use a metal (or my usual plastic) container within that to hold the milk but without the heat retaining properties of the slow cooker's pottery inner.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/ozipom/Tempgadgetback.jpg)

Elaine
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Fatman on July 23, 2011, 04:40:35 AM
Exactly what I was thinking of for digi control sans the hacking and disassembly.
And with U.S receptacles of course :P
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on July 23, 2011, 07:19:43 AM
That is a brilliant piece of work!  It is a much simpler solution to work with that box than to cut stainless... Plus, it is more versatile.  I use a temp controller from a keg refrigerator for my curing/ aging boxes (another thread) and it is great but it doesn't control a heater if it gets too cold.  This would control both heating and cooling...

I give you the better mouse trap award!

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on July 23, 2011, 07:42:58 AM
Tiddlypom,

I understand what you are saying about your cooker carrying over.  I think when it comes to this kind of precise temperature control, especially if you are trying to automate it, heat sinks and carryover temperature are the enemy. I would think it would be ideal to have a thin steel wall with lots of surface area in contact with the water jacket. Then, as little water as possible, while still maintaining the surface heating area. 

Simply put, you want to buffer the heating element so it heats evenly but you want the system to store as little energy as possible so when the element shuts off, the heating stops quickly.

I know you get that already.  It is just one of those things I didn't think of at the beginning either.

Again, awesome design.

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tiddlypom on July 23, 2011, 12:31:39 PM
Thanks all. And Jason - the better mousetrap award goes to my dad really, for fathoming out how to turn the idea into reality!

And this afternoon I scored a large urn-type canning unit on ebay, the type with an element in the bottom and a tap on the side for draining. In a few days when I have collected that I will be able to see how it works as a temp-regulated water bath.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: DeepSix on July 23, 2011, 05:54:16 PM
That is great, I'd love to see how it comes together.  Please post some pictures once you get it all together.

Jason
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tiddlypom on July 25, 2011, 03:23:22 AM
Just collected my flippin' big pot and and I think the last laugh may be on me... it already has a thermostatic control that takes it from 24C (75F) to boiling! The size seems just perfect, here it is with my 10 litre bucket inside, that I use to make an 8 litre (2 gal) batch of cheese.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/ozipom/IMGP1727.jpg)

The lid even fits on with my bucket inside, which should help with temp regulation. Oh and it's stainless, another big plus.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/ozipom/IMGP1726.jpg)

Inside, there is an exposed element in the base with a loose perforated plate over. Looks like I may have to organise a trivet so the heat can circulate efficiently in the water bath rather than sit the bucket directly on here.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/ozipom/IMGP1728.jpg)

I've proved it's working, now to set it up with the gadget - which will allow greater precision with temps than the dial, and will let me use Celsius which is what I am familiar with as the dial is in Fahrenheit.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Tatoosh on October 03, 2011, 04:28:40 AM
Let me ask a couple of questions about the portable steam table. I am in the Philippines and was looking at buying a very similar model in the USA and having it shipped here for doing a low cost sous vide setup.  I was planning on using an Aubers or similar PID unit to control the temperature when using it as a sous vide unit.  Wouldn't that setup work for using it as a cheese vat as well? 

Is there a pressing reason or advantage to do the cut and install of a PID controller instead of using a version that plugs into the power?  Lastly, how do you get the water out after you are finished?  I saw a somewhat more expensive version with a drain tap.  Would that be a better choice for ease of use?  Or would it have drawbacks that I am not familiar with? 

I had started out looking at the 18 or 20 quart roaster ovens, but the steam table looks like an even better choice.  I may go for one of each, so we have a back up and my wife can use the roaster for outings.   

Since I have to pay a hefty shipping bill (and risk damage to the unit in transit), I really want to make the best selection I can.  Any guidance on the best choices and approach will be greatly appreciated.

Tatoosh

Belated Update: The model of steam table I am looking at is a Alfa FW9000 seen here: FW9000 (http://www.etundra.com/Full_Size_Countertop_Food_Warmer_w__Drain_Valve-P6052.html)  A bit pricier but workable with a PID controller like an Aubers? 
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: sstrantz on October 03, 2011, 12:53:48 PM
I saw these and thought that someone may be interested.  Some folks I know are using for cheesemaking.  I don't have one but I'm thinking about it for the future. 

As I understand, it is large enough to put a 5 gal. stainless steel soup pot (which I use for cheesemaking) into the waterbath.   (Possibly larger depending on the measurement of the pot you use.)   The pot can be set onto a "double boiler maker" that is placed into the bottom of the waterbath for stability.    Interior is 14-1/4" in dia. by 11-3/4" high (7.93 gal capacity).   

It has a thermostat that ranges from 85 F. - Boiling.  I'm pretty interested...



http://www.kitchenkrafts.com/product.asp?pn=FP0857&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&sid=GoogleProdAd&tid=CSE&cvsfa=2792&cvsfe=2&cvsfhu=465030383537&gclid=CKyCmtrEzKsCFULBKgodRlex1g (http://www.kitchenkrafts.com/product.asp?pn=FP0857&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&sid=GoogleProdAd&tid=CSE&cvsfa=2792&cvsfe=2&cvsfhu=465030383537&gclid=CKyCmtrEzKsCFULBKgodRlex1g)

Double Boiler maker:
http://www.amazon.com/Fox-Run-Double-Boiler-Maker/dp/B00024WP66 (http://www.amazon.com/Fox-Run-Double-Boiler-Maker/dp/B00024WP66)
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 03, 2011, 01:15:47 PM
I just made a new cheese vat, as the electric roaster I was using met an unfortunate demise. I got a six inch deep full steam table pan with lid. It holds five gallons quite comfortably. I got a larger plastic bin, from the same restaurant supply, and fitted it with a 1500 watt 120 volt hot water heater element. Ran it for the first time last Sunday, with water in the vat to see what it would do. It raised the temperature of the water in the vat exactly one degree every minute. I made a butterkase on Monday evening: brought it up to temperature and turned off the heater. It held the temperature for 40 minutes of ripening, then 45 minutes of renneting, without dropping a degree. I like the rectangle shape for cutting the curd, and the spoon notch in the lid is perfect for my thermometer. I'll add a drain port, and eventually a controller; but this worked pretty well. Thanks Wayne for the water heater element idea!
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: susanky on October 05, 2011, 12:34:20 AM
Can you elaborate on the water heater element?  When I google it I just find info to replace the element in the house hot water heater. 
Susan
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 05, 2011, 01:12:20 PM
Yes, that's right, that's what I used. I used a hole saw to cut a 1-3/8" hole in the side of the plastic bin, which was a nice snug fit for the heating element. I screwed it in (it was that snug) and tightened down a threaded coupling on the inside until the gasket was tight. I hooked a cord to the element and plugged/unplugged, but Saturday I'll hook it up to a switch. I may enclose the whole thing in a nice insulated wooden box.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: susanky on October 06, 2011, 11:10:05 AM
I hooked a cord to the element and plugged/unplugged, but Saturday I'll hook it up to a switch.

This is what didn't make sense to me.  I presume this part requires some electrical knowledge? 
Susan
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 06, 2011, 05:55:42 PM
Some electrical knowledge, but not a lot. See the two screws in the picture? One wire from the cord goes to one, and the other to the other. You want to enclose this in a box so the connection is not exposed. Your local hardware store will have boxes for this, which can also house the switch. I got a 30 minute timed switch with an override to keep it on when I want, from McMaster-Carr, part number 7014K56 at www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com).
The skill level for this is about the same as hooking up a light switch, so if you're not comfortable doing it yourself you can most likely get a handy friend to do it for cheese.
I'll try to take some photos this weekend when I hook everything up for permanent use. I think I may enclose the whole bin a wooden cabinet with insulation, mostly for looks.
Check out this thread for a great cheese vat using hot water heaters by Wayne Harris. It was my inspiration for making my little vat: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,847.msg12607.html#msg12607 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,847.msg12607.html#msg12607)
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 06, 2011, 09:37:59 PM
Susan, this is not that much different than the 70 gallon tank that I use to heat my big pot. HOWEVER, some elements are 110v and some are 220v. There's a big difference in the skill level needed to wire them. The 110v is really easy and can plug into any normal outlet. A 220v (like a stove or dryer) is more complicated and requires special wiring and outlets. The 220v simply has a lot more power and will heat faster. Overkill on a small setup.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 07, 2011, 12:28:41 AM
Yes, I used a 120 volt 1500 watt element, which is rather small by water heater standards, but I have other appliances on the same circuit so I didn't go more powerful. As it turns out, 1500 watts is quite sufficient for the purpose. One degree per minute is easy to control, particularly when scalding the curd. The element I used was Model 15896  from Home Depot, $9.67. I think my plastic bin holds a couple of gallons surrounding the steam table pan, which comfortably holds five gallons. If I fill the bin with hot water from the tap, it heats the cold milk quite quickly. When I made the butterkase a week ago Monday, the five gallon bucket of milk I used was pretty much still frozen, and it thawed it within an hour. I'll eventually hook this up to a Johnson controller or a PID for holding a constant temperature for longer periods of time, for making mother cultures, yogurt, and quark.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: ellenspn on October 07, 2011, 02:19:36 PM
Dave, do you have a photo of your set up?  I'm not visioning the water vat you have.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 07, 2011, 08:39:56 PM
I'll borrow a camera this weekend and take some pictures of the whole set up. I'll try to post them by Sunday.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 10, 2011, 03:56:01 PM
Here are some photos of the vat I built. The plastic bin and deep steam table tray are both from a local restaurant supply outlet. The timed switch with override is from McMaster-Carr, the water heater element and appliance cord are from Home Depot. I built the wooden box from 1x10 #2 common pine. My cost so far is under $100. I want to add a lid for the water bath that will hold the pan in place, and add a drain to the underside of the water bath.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: ellenspn on October 10, 2011, 05:08:59 PM
Okay, now I recognize the plastic bin. And a full pan nicely fits in there. Now it makes sense that you actually mount the bucket heater and not just plop it in there.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: susanky on October 11, 2011, 11:09:19 PM
I get it.  It SOUNDS simple.  But I still don't have the confidence.  For now I will keep doing it the hard way.  Sigh.  Someday I'll talk it up with someone electrically inclined.
Susan
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 12, 2011, 01:52:51 AM
My last version was an electric roaster I got from Goodwill, and it worked pretty well for an awful lot of cheeses. I like this setup because of the more sensitive temperature control, but just keep going with what you have and keep improving as you can: the longer you make cheese, the more you'll realize what you want and need.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: susanky on October 14, 2011, 11:16:40 AM
I'm interested in making bigger batches.  And I have the pots now to do it.  (a 100 quart aluminum for outside double boiler, and a 60 quart stainless for milk).  The challenge will be heating the water and controlling the temp.  That element looks like a possibility.  But always looking for a better way...
Susan
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: dthelmers on October 14, 2011, 03:37:52 PM
Check out this thread:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,847.msg12607.html#msg12607 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,847.msg12607.html#msg12607)
Member Wayne Harris has a setup with a huge pot and he uses water heaters like this. That's where I got the idea.
I found on Sunday that my system does not work as well for a 2 gallon batch. the milk doesn't hold it's heat as well in this big pan. For two gallon batches a smaller pan would work better, less surface area, and it was floating until I lowered the water level. I'm going to build in a drain for this, maybe this weekend.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: horrocks007 on March 18, 2012, 12:50:54 AM
I have been looking at various cheese vat designs and like this one the most, so I built my own. I can definitely see some room for improvement, not sure if I can control the voltage, to lower the amount of heat produced when it kicks on, or perhaps have a fan kick on when the unit is too high in temperature. But for me this is way way way better than doing it stovetop and pouring hot water in my sink. I can make improvements later, and might build my dad a unit for fathers day. Perfect size for 4 gallons.
The Vat with my Fancy Lid
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/David_Horrocks/9d62ce37.jpg)

Cheese Curds:
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/David_Horrocks/7aa378c6.jpg)

Cheddar in progress:
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/David_Horrocks/2c9ff49e.jpg)

The wiring if it helps anybody:
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/David_Horrocks/3dbde4ad.jpg)

Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Boofer on March 20, 2012, 11:57:12 PM
Check out "sous vide" or "PID controller" on the forum. It might help to control your temp.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: horrocks007 on March 23, 2012, 12:30:07 AM
I did look at that and saw that the wiring becomes a little more complicated and the thermocouple used and some of the heating elements are temperamental.

Besides, controlling my temperature is not my problem, just the carry-over heat that remains in the coils after it shuts off. My coils are running a little hot in my opinion. I want to lower the heat in my coils, I think this can be done easy enough, just need to find the right part.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: paul t weir on November 06, 2013, 05:13:20 PM
Thank you "Deep Six" for your great explanation and list of parts for this 5 gallon digital cheese vat.  I made one just as you described and it works great! It takes some use to learn how the temperature carry over and thermo dynamics of the full vat work together, but I have been turning out some nice cheeses of many varieties and various cooking temperatures with this vat. I use a second digital thermometer to monitor my milk and curd temps and set the vat temperature to desired range and monitor closely during the whole process. I find 4 gallons is the most I'm comfortable making and have noticed performance differences between 2 and 4 gallon batches with the best temperature regulation the fuller the vat. You can see photos of my cheeses and vat at myrtlenymphs.com Thanks again for posting this resource and for sharing your experience. Paul
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Boofer on November 07, 2013, 03:21:14 PM
Intriguing website, Paul. How long have you been doing this?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: graysalchemy on November 07, 2013, 08:56:43 PM
Check out "sous vide" or "PID controller" on the forum. It might help to control your temp.

-Boofer-

I was going to say surely a pid would be a better way of controlling temp, you get a much finer control of the temp. Home brewers use them in Herms set ups to maintain mash temps, which is kind of a similar thing in a way.
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: Spoons on November 07, 2013, 09:43:53 PM
Thats a nice build, Paul!
Title: Re: Digital Cheese Vat with 5 gallon capacity $140 including shipping
Post by: paul t weir on November 13, 2013, 05:39:47 AM
Thanks for your comments Boofer & Spoons, I have been making cheese with that vat for less than 2 years and have made a few adjustments to make my batches more consistent and have had some great cheeses turn out. Of course curding is only half the process and have learned a lot about affinage and caving my cheeses too.  My bleu cheese is my pride and turning out very nice.  I have just found and added a small data logger that records temperature over time directly from the vat so I'm moving into new territory and want to start selling my cheese. To that end I have also enrolled in the dairy arts certificate program at College of Marin (Sonoma cheese country).  Thanks again and I love the city of Ottawa and all things Canadian as well as the Pacific northwest. Thanks again and keep making cheese. Paul