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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Blue Mold (Penicillium roqueforti) Ripened => Topic started by: Tomer1 on November 04, 2011, 09:34:45 AM

Title: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 04, 2011, 09:34:45 AM
Seems like it could be really intersting , something like Sainte Maure without the PC where the straw helps with a tiny bit of veining and the cheese is eaten at 3-4 weeks.
The high moisture content should give it some good mouthfeel,perhaps with some added cream.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on November 04, 2011, 04:18:24 PM
Yes, I make them all the time in 150 gram wheels. They are delicious. Hard to get opening to work well, so I make sure the curd is dry, and poke lots of holes.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: John (CH) on November 04, 2011, 07:38:18 PM
I accidentally made one (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2071.msg17108.html#msg17108) (well Ok it was a mostly lactic cheese, just a little bit of rennet)!

Bluing on outside (OK lots of people have that commonly unwanted problem) but due to slumping cheese had fissure inside which also accidentally blued inside.

Was probably the best tasting cheese I ever made!
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 07, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
There is this product (http://shop.cheeselinks.com.au/Cheesemaking-Ingredients/Sigma-30-Saccromyces-Yeast-p151.html) I've seen to open holes inside the cheese. Would this be used in combozola or lactic blues.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 08, 2011, 07:14:37 PM
Interesting , S.C is usually feared from for producing yeasty\breadish aromas in cheese.

What kind of matabolism is involved with this isolate? do you need to use a bit of sucrose in the milk?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: FoxDog Farm on November 09, 2011, 06:04:49 AM
Depending upon conditions, my raw milk chevres, made with very little rennet, turn into blue naturally.  Usually this happens if I leave the curd too long and it gets tougher, so when it's drained there are little cracks and crevices in the cheese. 
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 06:11:50 PM
Tomer, lactic blue is easy. The secret is using the right yeast, pre-draining the curd to get it dry enough and wrapping in foil or Expaco at the right time.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: NimbinValley on November 28, 2011, 06:23:57 PM
I used to use saccromyces yeast but even though it isn't meant to affect the flavour I found it gave the cheese a yeasty beer/bread flavour.  Some people liked it.  The other 'problem' was that it created heaps of tiny holes from the gas which some people thought was an indication of e-coli.  Get your curd pH down and firm it up and you should be fine with out the yeast...

By the way, Bleu d'Avergne is a lactic blue.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on November 28, 2011, 07:26:11 PM
What pH do you suggest?

I love the small holes and bready yeasty flavor -in the right cheese. Which brand did you buy?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 29, 2011, 07:27:34 AM
My lactic blue is growing its PR at about 60% coverage, It feels soft but not overly moist.  I did not predrain.
Its been about 10 days or so since make and I wonder where should I go at it?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on November 29, 2011, 02:26:02 PM
This may end up like a Chaource with slight blue taste and possibly some geo bitterness (refrigerate ASAP in low temp if you haven't done so yet). You shouldn't put PC in lactic blue because it out-competes the blue.  If you want PC development you may want to consider spraying it on the rind well into aging, after external and internal blue have taken over. (at least 10-14 days of no geo or PC).  Lack of yeast and pre-draining may give you moist acidic and dense curd which will not let blue develop properly inside.  The cheese will taste "blue-ish" but you may get little to no blue due to these reasons.  I would try agan. Starter culture, blue and yeast. No geo, pc, b.linen or any other surface mold. Pre-drain a lot and pack very loosely in the moulds.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 29, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
Oops, I got a typo  I meant PR.
The coverage is at about 80% as of today. I moved it to the main fridge at 4c to slow it down a bit.
Any advice?


Quote
Starter culture, blue and yeast
What type of yeast are we talking here?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 29, 2011, 11:57:47 PM
Interesting , S.C is usually feared from for producing yeasty\breadish aromas in cheese.

What kind of matabolism is involved with this isolate? do you need to use a bit of sucrose in the milk?

Hi Tomer, just saw your post, sorry. I don't know the inner workings of this product. It is some sort of yeast for sure but the web site does not tell much and I have never used it.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on November 30, 2011, 01:09:27 AM
Gürkan, i am curious too. Do you have that Saccharomyces product? Can you read the label? What is the specie or subspecie? Saccharomyces is a very generic name for yeast. There could be many possibilities.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 30, 2011, 07:28:04 AM
The only sub species I know of is bayanus,
There is a huge amount of different isolates though each with its unique charecter.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: NimbinValley on November 30, 2011, 03:19:29 PM
Hi.

The saccharomyces that I have is SIGMA 30, but not sure what the actual yeast isolate is.  It comes in small plastic vials with one dose sufficient for 150L of milk.  I used only 1/4 vial for 100L of milk and got good results in terms of gas production but I didn't like the flavour.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on November 30, 2011, 03:31:35 PM
I wonder where the idea of using it originated, is there any type of cheese using yeast (perhaps historically as fermenting wine or beer) as part of the "recipe" ?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on November 30, 2011, 04:27:56 PM
Tomer, it is best IMHO to think of this not as bread or fermenting yeast. It is sereviciae, but a special strain. It follows normal glucose fermentation pathways, but will also help to hydrolize as casein, adding flavor. In raw milk blue cheese, this kind of strain is often found naturally in established ecosystems. The origin I think is not in a practice... it's modern... isolated yeast added back to pasteurized milk in a recipe to achieve specific properties.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 30, 2011, 05:05:07 PM
I wrote to the company to get an answer about what sort of yeast bacteria in this product. Will let you know.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on November 30, 2011, 05:52:26 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 01, 2011, 01:57:02 AM
Another modern wonder I suppose...   
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on December 01, 2011, 05:14:04 PM
Here is the doco that came from the company.

Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on December 02, 2011, 01:54:50 AM
Thanks Gürkan!

Saccharomyces cerevisiae - that's really just simple baker's yeast!

Tomer - I am surprised you don't know it, saccharomyces cerevisiae is one of the most popular yeast products in wine and beer brewing. In fact the name means something like that... sacchar... = sugar and cerevisiae is like the Spanish word cesrveza - beer!
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 02, 2011, 10:34:11 AM
I could not call myself a winemaking enthusiest If I didnt know this simple fact  ^-^

I found this nice little article about expirimentation of a SC. Isolate in gorganzola style cheese.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168160501005773 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168160501005773)

It takes about its role in the degredation of casein which is what I think Linuxboy talked above earlier.

Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 02, 2011, 11:29:44 AM
Quote
that's really just simple baker's yeast!
IMHO, the strain differences are drastic enough to where this one in practice only slightly resembles modern baker's yeast. This strain is moderately useful for CO2 production, unlike baker's yeast, which produces tons of it rapidly. This adjunct is better to help with deacidification, openness, and flavor formation. It consumes hydrolyzed lactose as a primary energy source IIRC.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: David Helmers on December 02, 2011, 11:41:47 AM
A related question: in Abbey style cheeses where they wash with beer, is the yeast from the beer colonizing the surface and helping with proteolysis and other processes in the aging of the cheese?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 02, 2011, 11:58:26 AM
You mean like in Chimay grand cru? Yes.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 02, 2011, 01:28:24 PM
  deacidification, openness, and flavor formation. It consumes hydrolyzed lactose as a primary energy source IIRC.

Thats interesting, how does the deacidification works? 
I know that some S.C isolates have a "trick" up their sleeve,  which allows them to partially consume malic acid as secondary energy source.  is there a simmilarity here?

(I know this is big boys stuff and my molecular science is non existant  ;))
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 02, 2011, 02:30:49 PM
Quote
Thats interesting, how does the deacidification works? 
Essentially as you described. Yeast has mechanisms that enable it to ferment multiple types of fermentables directly. It prefers glucose due to a phenomenon called catabolytic repression, which is basically when certain enzymes are not produced in the presence of a preferred food source. But it will consume other sources of carbon on a limited basis, deacidifying the surface. The best yeast for this is kluyveromyces, but some saccharomyces will also work to an extent (and much slower).
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 09, 2011, 06:41:28 PM
Im afrid to report a fail with the lactic blue,

I got major bitterness and way too much sharpness, Perhaps my PR strain is not suitable for this style.
I'l upload my camera pics tomorow.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on December 10, 2011, 02:59:46 AM
Sorry to hear that. Share the recipe. Did you use yeast? What temperature did you age it at and for how long?  You just need to work with very dry curd on these (pre drain it a lot) and use yeast to buildup gas as well as deacidify the surface of the cheese and the surface of the eyes so that blue can grow inside the eyes. Mould it cool so that it doesn't know all the way. Age it in cooler temperature than you are used to. The blue thrives in cold but the geo doesn't and I suspect it's geo that made it bitter.  (you may have geo in it even if you didn't put any). Wrap the outside and let the blue develop inside instead. Too much blue on the outside in such cheese will give you bitterness and unwanted sharpness
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: JeffHamm on December 10, 2011, 03:44:17 PM
Hi Tomer1,

A shame.  I've not tried mine yet.  It tasted fine when I pierced for a 2nd time, but there's been lots of time for things to go a stray.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: JeffHamm on December 11, 2011, 10:35:28 PM
Hi Tomer1,

Just tried mine today at the age of 30 days and I'm pleased to report it was an outstanding success, so it is possible to get a good blue semi-lactic cheese.  I'm sorry I can't tell you what strain of mould I used, as I harvested it from a bought cheese that I really enjoyed. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on December 12, 2011, 02:39:11 PM
PHOTOS PLEASE!!!!

Did you end up using any yeasts?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 12, 2011, 05:47:49 PM
 (http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4466/dsc0084p.jpg)   (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6011/dsc0091rt.jpg) 

Added calcium.
Culture - Probat 222+PR (tiny amount) ripened for 3-4 hours before a very small amount of veggi rennet was added ,diluted in distilled water.  Temp 22c

Drained at 4.6 after about 16 hours? perhaps a bit more...

Predrain for 3 hours,salted to 2% by wight and moulded.
Left to ferment (and drain) at 20c for two days to firm up.
Boxed to keep the PR contained and humidity high and went to the cave at 12c flipping daily.
This was 3 or 4 weeks later.

Bitter,very powerful and not very creamy.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on December 13, 2011, 11:44:29 PM
The problem with semi lactics is that they age very fast while blues take their time.  For this you need to begin by modifying your recipe to age slower.

The second issue is that you are not wrapping the outside and all your growth is focused on the outside. It gives you an insane volume of blue and accelerated proteolysis which could cause the cheese to bitter up. You really want this to be a random thing that grows inside the cheese and not all over the outside.  Additionally using veggie rennet may have contributed to the bitterness.

The other thing is, this looks like a tiny cheese. Form factor is important and you need a reasonable volume and seperation between one side of the rind to the opposite side, as well as sufficient surface total to allow the cheese some time before it is covered all over.  Another aspect of that is that if you are using small cheese and drying it rapidly, it will shrink and the rind that was created originally will now be loose and wrinkly - which is what your photo has.

My suggestion is to do a larger volume cheese, use yeast, ultra-dry that curd and then break it down in a bowl. Toss the loose curd with the salt in the bowl and then simply and gently take pieces of curd and move place them in the mould. Don't push them or tighten them, just pile them up so lots of air can be trapped mechanically in between them (you can only do that with curds that has dried enough).

As soon as the blue growth seem to take over the outside, pierce the cheese and cover the rind with foil. Age it in cool temperature. The blue thrives in it and the curd will knot slowly -thus preventing the bitterness.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 14, 2011, 02:06:34 AM
I was aiming for a very high moisture style but apearently its not really possible. With what I expirienced this kind of draining (to make it tossable rather then having cream cheese consistancy) requires 8-10 or so hours or 4-6 with some pressing on the draining bag.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: iratherfly on December 17, 2011, 01:43:30 PM
You can give it 24 hours. That's what they do with some Crottins. It's interesting because by that time some of the yeast begin to grow and the acidity begins to taper off and reverse. Perfect time for moulding. If it feels very dry, you can skip the 4 days of drying so eventually the moisture will be the same as what you wanted but the development schedule will fit the type of fabrication you are aiming for too
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 08, 2012, 04:19:11 AM
I wana re-do my attemp.   is it even possible to get a creamy texture? (as you directed, one needs to dry it up real good so high moisture = creamyness is out of the question, is it not?). 
Will the protolysis of the PR provide any of that creamyness im after? (given that I can get it to work on the paste, not the surface as last time.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 08, 2012, 09:12:00 AM
I should clarify. By drying the curds, I mean you do not want to re-fuse them too early. If you do, they will close off. You want them rough-packed so there are openings. It will still have enough moisture.

Some strains of PR do help with the creaminess.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 08, 2012, 09:14:38 AM
What strains help with creaminess?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 08, 2012, 09:21:39 AM
Whose products do you typically use/like? Danisco, Hansen, Cargill, someone else?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 08, 2012, 10:12:02 AM
danisco
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 08, 2012, 10:19:33 AM
Danisco's PV is an aggressive strain. Will also give fast coloration.
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 09, 2012, 09:48:32 AM
So an aggressive strain will help with creaminess?

If I were to attempt a lactic acid cheese (something with an outcome like Roth Kase's buttermilk blue) would that make a good blue to use?
Title: Re: Lactic blue cheeses,does such a thing exist?
Post by: linuxboy on December 09, 2012, 10:59:48 AM
Quote
an aggressive strain will help with creaminess?
Yes. Have to balance it with fat and moisture, though.

Quote
lactic acid cheese (something with an outcome like Roth Kase's buttermilk blue)
buttermilk blue is not a lactic blue. It's a normal blue cheese.

It's hard to say outright what blue strain will work for you, there are so many variables at play, such as milk, process, lactic starter strains, etc. Try one and see if you like it. If not, move to another one.