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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: Cheese Head on January 25, 2009, 04:50:34 AM
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Wayne, I assume that wasn't a typo in your other post (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,777.msg5213.html#msg5213)? 100 US quarts! For all the non-Americans here, that's 95 litres!
Of course you know you are going to need a monster parmesan hoop for all that curd!
(I've just started this new thread for Wayne or anyone to talk about Extra Large Stockpots.)
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Not a typo.
I would like to make a single wheel, monthly. in the 10kg size..
A 100 qt pot is here (http://www.instawares.com/nsf-stainless-steel-stock.rii-royssrspt100.0.7.htm)
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Wow, shipping weight is 42 pounds, that's 19 kg, even after packing material, it would be heavy and huge just to move.
If you do buy this, what are you going to put it on or in to warm the milk and how would one get the curds out and how would one get the whey out?
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Wayne,
That's actually a really nice price on a 100 quart pot.
I've been looking on another site but their prices are considerably more.
One thing about it though....
This site has one pot that is 200 quarts and several others of various shapes and sizes.
Here's a link: http://www.kitchenfantasy.com/shopping_cart/stockpots.html
I've decided to stick with my 24 quart for now but maybe next year jump up to a 35-40 quart.
That way I could do a 5 or 6 gallon batch with plenty of free space above the milk.
I'm also curious as to how you plan to handle such a large pot.
The weight of the pot alone is quite a bit and when you add the weight of the cheese it is going to be quite a challenge to move, drain, etc.
Looking forward to your response (since I'd also like to move up in size some day).
Dave
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Yes, I'm curious how you handle such a large pot-- do you treat it like the large copper cauldrons I've seen on websites (like fxcuisine's Alpine Cheese making pictures) and scoop the curds out? We have a 8 gallon heavy bottom stock pot we use for brew and we plan to use for tomato sauce making in September, but haven't made any cheese in it yet -- I'm still trying to get the hang of smaller 1-2lb. cheeses first.
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This setup is all in my head mind you.
But i have a 1-ton winch already in my basement. (block and tackle with a boat winch.)
I am going to create a small steel grate to rest the pot on, and the grate will be raised and lowered with the winch. It will be lowered in and out of a larger water bath.
The water bath will rest on a large hotplate, and the stockpot will be lowered in-out of the bath to control temp.
I plan on putting a 3/4 ball valve in the bottom and a curd gate for whey drainage. I have a NSF HDPE must scoop (winemaking) that I will use to put curd into SS colander for drainage.
These are just preliminary thoughts...
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100 qts? That's 25 gallons, isn't it? ??? Sheesh, how would you possibly ever warm it up? You would use half a tank of propane that way! And I mean the size propane that you use for the house! :)
That's ambitious, Wayne.
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I plan on using a water bath that circulates hot water around the pot giving me maximum surface area.
Of course there will be time trials and process refinements...
But you brind up a good point.
The point is i would like to make 1 wheel a month. (as opposed to every weekend).
I would prefer that the wheel be substantial. 10Kg...
That will produce wedges with enough "meat" to rind.
10kg is ~22lbs
That will need 22-23 gal of milk (whole, for cheeses like gouda or cheddar).
So, 100qt stockpot is where i am headed...
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They are getting cheaper all the time:
(http://www.productsuperstores.com/ck/images/65qt%20Stainless%20Steel%20Stock%20Pot-KTSP65.jpg) (http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Restaurant-Supply/Update-International/100-Qt168817?trackURL=nextag)
(picture is a link)
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(Likesspace speaking to himself)
Your pot is fine. You don't NEED this. Size is not important......
Dave
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Wayne if I come out to help on the shed/barn we could build a custom vat with that, that has a frame that allows it to swing like the link you posted of the ebay auction.
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I was wondering ... I few members mentioned brew pots. I also brew beer and I have a ball valve sprigot on the bottom of my mashtun. Why can't we do that with cheese? There's no way I would be able to lift a pot bigger than 20 quarts by myself.
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As long as you have some sort of screen to keep the curds from draining away you can use it to drain off the whey, that's the way professional vats work. Just make sure the pot is Stainless and not aluminum.
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I would verify that the handles (and wall structure of the pot) are strong enough to be lifted by the handles when the pot is full.
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I have, they are not.
Reference the thread here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,93.msg5865.html#msg5865).
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You could get hold of a big hunk of metal plate for the pot to sit on; holes at the four corners could have holes for which to attach chains.
Steal one of those giant cover plates the DOT use to cover up their holes in the middle of road!
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I was wondering ... I few members mentioned brew pots. I also brew beer and I have a ball valve sprigot on the bottom of my mashtun. Why can't we do that with cheese? There's no way I would be able to lift a pot bigger than 20 quarts by myself.
I think it would get clogged from the curds. A bazooka screen would probably also clog. I employ, under my false bottom, a SS washing machine hose (the rubber hose inside is removed); this works great. It never clogs and I get a clear wort almost immediately. Of course, for cheese, you wouldn't want the false bottom. However, I surmise that the hose would interfere with cutting the curds.
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I was thinking more like a flippy door on the inside and draining both curds and whey from the hose. I would like to do bigger batches without lifting all that liquid. ???
Oh well my chriropractor loves me! I trade BBQ and beer for co-pays.
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You could get hold of a big hunk of metal plate for the pot to sit on; holes at the four corners could have holes for which to attach chains.
Steal one of those giant cover plates the DOT use to cover up their holes in the middle of road!
I agree. A base plate mounted on your chains makes tremendous sense. That way you won't have to depend on the strength of the handles to take the load.
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Losers! I use my Jedi powers to raise mine. ;D
Good idea, just make sure everything is secure you don't want hot liquid pouring everywhere.
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My approach is to drop a ricotta basket in the pot and from it siphon the excess whey to another container as the curds settle until the volume is more manageable.
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That's pretty much what I have to do to FineWino I'd like to come up with an easier way (or a shorter stove and pot). I just ordered one of those electric chafing dish thingys so I can set it next to the sink. We'll see how that works.
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Losers! I use my Jedi powers to raise mine. ;D
Good idea, just make sure everything is secure you don't want hot liquid pouring everywhere.
"The whey of the force is strong in this one." -- Yogurt, Cheddar Knight
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Or is it the force of the whey? LOL You guys are to funny!
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Still have not bought my large Stockpot, but in my continuing search, I came across this pot.
This is on Ebay for ~130. Here is the link (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-80-QT-STAINLESS-STEEL-STOCK-POT-STEAMER-INSERT-LID_W0QQitemZ280327834341QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCookware_Bakeware?hash=item280327834341&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50).
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It has arrived!!!!!
100 quarts of stainless steel goodness.
(better pictures to follow)
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Wayne, please say the dog is only in there for scale and not to size it up for cooking...LOL
Looks good, my only question would be would the ring-depression near the bottom interfere with cheesemaking. bill
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the dog is for scale. my dog is 45lbs
not sure what the ring depression is that you refer to. i hope it does not interfere!
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You gotta build a fort for the dog with that. Good job Wayne.
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Nice pot! I could almost bathe in that thing!
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More pictures.
Time for a new curd knife!
My wife is holding my older 20qt vat.
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This thing is ridiculously big. Not sure what i was thinking.
:)
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25 gallon pot! WOW! Now that's gonna be one heck of a HUGE cheese wheel! I can't wait to see this one!
BTW probably to late but Glengarry will order you a 1.5 to 2 kg mold if you want one. $115 I think it was. I just ordered a few. Looks like you'll need a 11 kg mold now.
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One step closer to making larger wheels. I got the heating vessel today today for my 100qt stockpot.
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Cute kid! Looks like a nice place for her to take a milk bath...
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I plan on using a variation of my current heating solution for heating this much larger water bath. Currently I use a homemade immersion heater to heat my water bath. I intend to use an expanded version of this:
I plan on using 5 2000watt 15amp heating elements. These will either poke into the water from above, or i will screw it into holes in the side. I have not yet decided.
The way I determined how much heat to apply was by following this formula
[(Gallons of Water * Temperature Change)/(372 * Time in Hours)]*1000=Watts needed.
So for me, it was:
Calculating a 24deg rise in 40 min. (my parm recipe) in my 90 gallon bath, the math works out as follows.
(While the water bath is 90gal, the cheese will only be 23 gallon of that, and so the 90gallons is only a theoretical upper limit, as I will prolly not fill the tub to capacity)
[(90gal*24deg)/(372*.66)]*1000=watts needed.
(2160/247)*1000
~8750watts
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Wow, that's dedication. For all that effort and time did you consider just buying a used steam jacket kettle and hooking up some hot water to it? You could tap right off your house boiler if you have one, or get a tankless gas unit.
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I've thought about it.
Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Cleveland-40-Gal-Tilting-Kettle_W0QQitemZ180360112684QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Steam_Cooking_Warming?hash=item29fe4cea2c&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116) has them for sale.
$695
Then the cost and safety issues associated with steam heat.
While that may be in my future. I need this intermediate step (300 bucks) step first to see how it goes.
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You don't have to use steam in the jacket. I know of at least a dozen artisan producers that did their initial setup with boiler water (180F) and jacketed kettles for raw milk cheeses.
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Well, I have started construction on the heaters for my water bath.
Here are some pictures as I progress. I have started with some 2" PVC Pipe (10") and drilled some holes.
The heating elements are screwed into 1" female adapters.
The 1" PVC female adapter is then slid inside a 1.25" PVC coupler.
The 1.25" PVC coupler is then slid inside the 2" pipe.
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Wayne, you know what I'm going to say, but I have to my friend as I don't want you to kill yourself.
1. Why not drill a hole in the tub and use the nut that comes with the heating element and some high temp silicon to put them on, that way the electricity is not in the water.
2. If you don't want to do that please replace the standard recepticles you bought with GFCI, PLEASE.
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Carter, you old softie. :)
But, you bring up very Solid Advice.
I cannot drill holes and mount the heaters as they are bound to be broken if the pot is not perfectly seated in the middle.
I plan on hanging the heating elements down the sides such that the electrical contacts are not submerged. (As they are now with my current rig)
Each circuit (there are now 5), has its own GFCI outlet. (This is in my basement)
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OK good to know.
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Wayne, wow is all I can say! I go on holiday and look what you go and do!
Looks like you are having a great adventure with it, looking forward to pictures of it in service!
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Progress on the control panel for the heaters.
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Artisan power box, looks great!
Looking back at the girl in your pot reminded me of the old cannibal cartoons!
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If you will notice, she is the smaller one in the pictures gallery. They are my little neighborhood "helpers"
("whatcha doing Mr. Harris..., Whats that Mr. Harris?..., Can I try Mr. Harris?..., How come she got a longer turn stirring Mr. Harris... Is it my turn to scoop Mr. Harris?")
Anyway, good kids.
I glued up and assembled the heating elements. They are drying at the moment. When they dry up, i will finish them by gluing on the cap and marking them min/max water levels etc...
Then its off to making the curd knife.
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First Test Run of the new heat!
10,000watts and 75 amps of heat!!
So far, it looks good and feels solid.
Kinda messy, I have to put some serious thought to cable managment and making things neat and tidy.
But hey, this is just testing.
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Nicely organized, of course you won't need to heat as much water when that 100 quart monster full of milk is in there. Thoughts and questions:
- Are you going to rest it on bottom or raise to allow better water flow underneath?
- With that much heat generation on one side, are you going to have a small water circ device or just stir by hand every now and then during your 40 min while raising temp?
- How are you going to fill (hose?) and more importantly drain all that water (syphon hose?)?
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As you might expect, I have thought about all of these.
•Are you going to rest it on bottom or raise to allow better water flow underneath?
There will be 4 half bricks under the pot for it to rest on. This will allow flow underneath
•With that much heat generation on one side, are you going to have a small water circ device or just st usir by hand every now and then during your 40 min while raising temp?
I will be using a small, home depot submersible pond pump ($20) to keep the water circulated.
•How are you going to fill (hose?) and more importantly drain all that water (syphon hose?)?
I will fill the tank from a hose from he utility sink, but when am done, i will open a valve (not yet purchased) to drain directly into a hose, to a floor drain. For these test runs i may have to scoop or pump out.
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OK the first heat test results are in.
I had 100 gallons in water bath:
90-100 deg took about 14min
100-124 deg took about 38 min (started to slow above 120deg)
So, looks like the math that called for 8,200 watts was correct, as 10,000watts put me a bit ahead of schedule. Sweet. So far so good.
But this was just the 1st time trials with the water-bath only. I will probably repeat in a couple of days (will take a while to lose all that heat) to test things like the submersible pump.
Then I will introduce the stock pot and take seperate temp measurements inside the pot.
To do:
>Get my heat protocols developed and tested
>Finish my new curd knife
>get mould followers created
At the conclusion of both of those activities, it will be "go-time".
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Impressive. I really like this set up. But, I hate to have your electric bill with those 4 heating elements. Hopefully you have a way to regulate their output like a dimmer switch. You may not want the water to get hot too quick. Perhaps you have and I didn't see it.
What kind of displacement would you get with a full batch of milk inside your pot? I suspect that you may only need about 20 gallons of water in your water bath. You may have too much power with those four heating elements if you only have 20 gallons of water to heat up.
Will half bricks have the tensle strength to support a full pot with milk?
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The electric bill will spike a bit, but thankfully its only for about an hour every month or so.
The "dimmer" capability is accomplised by selectively turning ciruits on and off. While I have 5 heaters, they do not all have to run at the same time. I can simply run 2 or 3 or 4. Also, I will be able to fine tune the heat actually transferred to the vat by raising or lowering the vat into the water bath. This adjusts the surface area of the vat that is getting heated. The vat itself, is on a block and tackle that is used to raise and lower into the bath water.
Why do all this? I have found that one of the most difficult aspects of cheesemaking is simply temperature control. Sounds simple, but I have found that it is more difficult than it seems.
In terms of the volume of the bath water, this is a 100gallon water bath. When I get to the point of putting the 25 gallong vat in the tank, I will only fill it to 75 gallons or a bit less.
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Good job grasshopper.
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Control panel version 1.1
Painted it, and added status light indicators.
I want to know when each circuit is activated.
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That is one big power bar! Hope your household circuit will take that load.
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Oh Wayne, I can't stop laughing....
I got to the "I really don't know what I was thinking" comment and your daughter in the pot, and just lost it.
So now I am waiting for the cheese that this beast will make.
Bring it on....
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Very impressive setup Wayne! Well at least you can reuse the water. I am so excited! I can't wait to see the first MONSTER cheese!
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Wayne that is too awesome! The really good thing is after a hard day of cheese making you have your own hot tub to soak in and unwind with a bottle of your wine!! ;D
I too look forward to seeing some action shots of that whole operation!
Congrats!
Ryan
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Thanks all, I still have a bit of building yet to do, (platform for tub, and lifting platform for vat.
And still much testing with regards to heating times and heat settings.
But when i get those last few things worked out, i will take pics and let everyone know.
I think it will be july. but we shall see
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Most of the pieces are assembled, not all, but most. (missing the platform, and Vat lifting mechanism)
But this is a full scale heat test. I was Testing the following:
>how long it takes to get 25 gallons of water to get from 45 - 90.
>what it takes to hold it there at 90 deg
>what does it take to move 25 gallons 2 deg / 5 min
>what does it take to move 25 gallons 3 deg /5 min
not sure if I want to go here, but, i would love to know how hot will this get....
Hmmm. (just bought a sack of onions and carrots, i could dice up some beef...)
Anyway, I will do this a couple of times to get accustomed to the new gear. Seems as though ever time i use it, i make a major change to some design.. (having great fun at doing this.)
Thanks much to carter for mucho offline advice.
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Very good job, now that I've said that I think you need an intervention. Cheese Makers Anonymous sounds like the right place.
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What are you using to drain the curds?
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That is a great question.
Right now, the plan is to use a stainless steel sink that I bought from an old hospital. Basically its a huge (27"x27") standalone sink on wheels with a lever-activated stainless steel drain.
Additionally I bought a 24"x24" stainless steel screen, and will line the bottom of the sink and pour the curds and whey into the sink. the whey will pass through the sink into the drain and in to a large bucket. the curds will remain in the sink, and there I will heat and stir them.
There is a thread on this here. (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1466.0.html)
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A while ago I bought a larger stock pot; 80 quart, which makes it 20 gallon. I put it directly on the stove. Check the linklink to see it in action.
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2009/03/larger-cheese-vat.html (http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/2009/03/larger-cheese-vat.html)
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Oude, I hate to mention this as I've been to your site many times and your a very accomplised cheesemaker, but I'v been told not to use the PH meters (I have the same red one you do) directly in the curd. Hanna Techs told me it releases electrolytes into the test matter, so always take a sample out and then dispose of the sample. They do make high end PH probes that plus into handheld meters that are food safe but are expensive.
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Thanks, I'll take a note of it. I vaguely remember the salesperson telling me this.
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Ah ... I remember that sink. I'd wondered what you had done to it. I anxiously await the first of you monster cheeses this will be a glorious moment. I can't even imagine trying to handle that much milk at once at home. My back hurts just thinking of it. Good luck my friend I salute your extradiary efforts.
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I have almost figured out the raising lowering mechanism for my vat.
Notice the hand winch in the upper right. This gives me pretty simple control for varying how deep in the bath my cheesevat sits.
My cheesevat wieghs about 220lbs.
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Nice sling, good idea, lifting just from the handles when full could be a recipe ;) for disaster, looking good, one step closer!
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John, some call it a Sling Vat, I call it a Kaiser Vat.