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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: OzzieCheese on May 05, 2012, 07:54:21 PM

Title: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on May 05, 2012, 07:54:21 PM
Well, is this stupidity or is this stubbornness. I bit of both I think but I still need to keep trying until I can get it right. I still have friends and family still waiting for the eventual unveiling. So after much more reading and soul searching I'm making Camembert for the 6th time. I'm still using Tim Smith's basic recipe for 8 litres of Milk but adding 300ml of cream and 1/4 tsp Calcium Chloride.

1.Heated the milk over 40 minutes to 32 Deg C. Added the P.C and a small mini smidge of G.C

2. initial ripening stage where I pre-activated the Flora Danica 10 minutes before hand and added to the rest at 32DegC. Ripening for 90 minutes.

Once more into the fray. :)
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on May 05, 2012, 08:14:58 PM
This time there will be the use of vibrating the curds in the moulds to reduce the pockets of whey and the extended draining time suggested here in the Forum.  No brine or Salt additions apart from the direct salting of the outside. and fast movement from cave to fridge to prevent over-ripening.
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Toast on May 05, 2012, 11:26:46 PM
Hi Ozzie,

Don't feel too bad, we checked on our brie today only to find that it was totally liquefied on the inside (it was like a cheesy waterbed).  Very disappointing.  Is over-ripening the major issue you've been having?  Have you learned anything that might help us with our next attempt?
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on May 05, 2012, 11:53:28 PM
HI Toast,  Yep !! One of the things that seems to get missed out of these is how to judge the timing and the treatment of Cams and Bree.  I've had overripening, under ripening, not ripening, smelly ripening and all but correct ripening so this might not be correct either but here goes. We all get past the flipping and into the ripening containers and it all goes south.  Without instruments to measure moisture the only thing i can say is that there should be a little dampness inside the container but not wet.  Last time I wiped and turned the cheeses daily and left the lid just resting on the lip of the container.  This I will do again as I got white fuzz in about 5 days. Where I went wrong was that I left them to really fuzz up in the 10 Degree cheese cave and ended up overripening.  My plan this time is to wipe out and flip everyday and when they fuzz up tamp the mould down with my fingers every day until fully covered. So hopefully by day 10 or sooner) I will wrap them and place them into the standard fridge running at 4-5 deg C.  The attached photo is the result of my last attempt.  I overcooked this one and they didn't smell good either.
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on May 06, 2012, 05:05:16 PM
With the flipping stage over I let them drain further over night, it was a nice cool 11 degree night so thats not much more than my "Cave". In the morning I dry salted them and put them to bed. The containers are big enough to hold three each with space enough around for circulation.  This is where everything has gone wrong before so here goes number #6.   I'll try to update this daily so those here with way more experience can jump in and direct my attention to something I might have missed.

So Day 1... dry salted 1/2 teaspoon each. gentely rubbed all over and put into my Cave at 10 Degree C
I can lower this if necessary but the cave is a shared one with other unwaxed and waxed cheeses.

-- Mal
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Dragonfish on May 07, 2012, 11:21:10 AM
Hi Ozzie,

I have a feeling you will be successful this time  :)  Finding the right combinations for ripening is tricky!  For me, extra draining time at a cool room temp. has eliminated whey build-up in my ripening boxes.  The first day in the cave-fridge I check at least twice for moisture.  Since I use my goat milk, I keep it cool (10-11 C, 50-52 F) and the patting with the turning daily after PC bloom has been a huge factor in my success with my little goat milk bries.  It has taken a lot of shuffling of the box lids and micromanaging leaving the door open (a bit, a little bit, a very little bit?) to get my humidity levels correct.  And this may change in the summer.

I even feel, dare I say it?, confident in their production  ;)  I have been making them quite often and now that spring is here, I am starting on some crottins.

I'm glad you are stubborn and your family and friends will be glad too!
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on May 08, 2012, 07:06:34 PM
Well Day 2,  Cheeses were a little damp so I patted them dry with paper towel and wiped out the containers and put them back with the lids askew.  Hopefully, this will improve the dampness.  They still smell nice and sweet and so on to fay 3.  Fingers crossed.

-- Mal
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Toast on June 04, 2012, 05:54:31 AM
How did it turn out Mal?  We had our second go at a Cam/Brie and it was a moderate success.  I screwed it up initially by spilling half of the curds, so the wheel was a little thinner than I would have liked and there was a (very slight) bitter taste to the cheese, but texture was pretty good and creamy and taste was also generally quite nice.  It still wasn't perfectly ripened however - slightly under-ripe in the middle and slightly over-ripe at the edges.  We ripened at 10C for 10 days (until we had a reasonable coating of white mold - it wasn't very apparent at 5 days).  At this stage, I flattened the mold down with my fingers and placed the cheese for another 11 days at 4C.  Weird that the cheese was over-ripe at the edges (most shop cams/bries go gooey in the centre rather than at the edges) - I put this down to the thicker rind on the edges of the cheese vs. the top and bottom.  Next time, if the rind looks thick around the edges, I'll be tempted to run a ring of paper around the circumference of the cheese to slow the mold down in that area.  I'd be interested to hear how you went with your latest attempt.

Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on June 11, 2012, 12:54:06 AM
Well, I can now report back that I have finally produced a Camembert we could eat and although not perfect. It had everything a Cam should have.  The lovely mushroomy aroma, a creamy consistency and a slightly sharpish aftertaste with a bloomy rind.  I spent today, which was a windy, wet public holiday doing what I like to relax, making cheese, my house stock is depleting.  Here are a few photos of batch number 6.  Are they Camembert? No, not yet will I triumph ... Absolutely.  5 out of the 6 were eatable, 1 died(and was turfed out), 1 was gooey(the pick of the bunch), the rest were interesting to say the least with a nice rind but still firm inside, though very creamy and wonderfully spreadable.   The journey continues...
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: JeffHamm on June 11, 2012, 02:17:01 AM
Hi Mal,

Good on ya mate!  This batch sounds like you're almost there.  I've not made cam's enough to get any tips, but you're doing pretty good off your own bat.  A cheese to your success, and to your future triumph!

- Jeff
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Myrrh on June 11, 2012, 03:37:10 AM
My cams are by no means perfect, but I have come up with some ideas on how to deal with the liquification. I got to the point that I had a good flavor, but the insides where like water- tasty, but not satisfying to spread on a cracker. And the empty shell was so sad and lonely looking when all the paste leaked out.

I found that by leaving my cams to dry out a bit more before the mold started growing, I got a much firmer paste. These days I leave my cams at room temp completely or almost uncovered until I get the first blush of mold depending on the humidity in my house (usually 36 to 48 hours). Once I start to see mold I put them in the fridge in a container with a cracked lid. The first chill down produces a lot of moisture, so I make sure to be diligent about wiping off the container twice a day until it stays dry. This may not be the "correct" way to do it, but it has been working pretty well for me.

This is my first goat milk mini brie. Here I even got the paste too firm. It's totally ripe, but fairly dry. Once it reached room temp there was a bit of a bulge to it. Next time I will dry a little less (and add cream). When I used commercial cows milk this amount of drying turned out to be appropriate.

Good luck!
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Bob on June 11, 2012, 04:42:32 AM
Congratulations Mal, that is great progress. Well done for being persistent!

By the look of these, your curd is still too moist. This is leading to rapid paste development under the rind, and that liquidy layer, yet the centre is still firm. If you left these until the centre was soft, I'm sure the rind would be ammoniated and bitter from proteolysis (protein breakdown). Maybe try a bit more stirring of the curd and longer draining time before placing in the cave.

Cam are very tricky. Getting the balance right so the rind is not over ripe, but the centre is soft and gooey is really difficult. I'm sure you kept detailed notes, so review, make some small educated adjustments, not too many, and try again!

Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Boofer on June 11, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
Alright, some success! Looks like a ripe Chaource.

Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: Oberhasli on June 11, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
Good for you Mal!!!!  That cheese definitely looks nice and edible.  I'm glad you kept at it and now you can tweak your method until you get exactly what you want!  Good job.

Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: iratherfly on June 11, 2012, 08:55:16 PM
The fabrication of this cheese looks correct, the aging temperature/humidity is out of range. Your entire problem lies there.
The oozing outside and chalky inside means that the rind does the job but it's way too fast. The receding PC is a sign of early ammonia. This happens when your aging humidity and/or cave temp is too high, or if you left it too long in the cave and never moved it to a cool fridge on time.

Think of surface-ripened cheese as a fried chicken breast: If you cook it too high, it will brown nicely and look the same as a properly cooked breast. Inside however, the only cooked part will be just under the skin. The center will be under-done, red or frozen.  Continue to cook at the same temperature and it may cook all the way but your outside will burn and the area just under the skin will be overcooked, right?
On the other hand, if you cook it correctly at medium heat, you will have a perfectly cooked interior just as the skin of the chicken breast is properly browned. The area under the skin will still be moist and delicious.

Same thing here. You are simply "cooking it too high"!  Cool it = slow it down. Let the rind work slow and deep on the interior before it recedes and over-age the paste just below it.  If there is too much moisture in the box, open the lid more to let air in! If it's over 55°F/13°C - cool it down. If the rind looks complete (should happen about day 7-11) than you can move to the fridge for the next 3 weeks.  You can put it in a box then and turn it / tap it daily, or you can wrap it (in which case don't put it in a box but just on a well ventilated shelf).  Follow those rules and I swear it will work instantly.

If you are having an issue of rind growing too fast, dense or aggressive - switch the strains.  You can also extend the draining of the cheese to get less liquid and more controlled/stable ripening. Don't do all of my suggestions at once though. Start with aging it slowly and at cooler temp and/or lower moisture.
Title: Re: #6 and still trying - 6th May 2012
Post by: OzzieCheese on July 21, 2012, 05:36:53 PM
From a long stint away ... Thanks for the information and today I will do another batch.  Following this batch make notes and the ripening information above.  I went to the Witches Chase Cheesery yesterday and had their "Tamembert" and had a good chat to the cheese Master and he was sure I was on the right path and even their centres were firmish like the images just not as gooey on the outside.. so slowing down the ripening is the key and and good lower temperature.

-- Mal