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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: Baby Chee on September 09, 2009, 01:20:37 AM
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I've been preparing to make Havarti tomorrow.
The instructions I am using from here talk about submerging the havarti in 6.0 pH water before brining...
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html)
However, I notice the people here have no such steps in their Havartis. Is there any good reason to submerge??
And how do you submerge without damage? I'll try it, but am afraid of breaking the cheese. Got the 6.0pH water ready to roll.
Any help? Advice? Insights to the use of water pre brine?
On such a soft cheese, it seems like it could break the cheese apart.
(EDIT--sorry, I'm not sure if this should go below in specific procedures sub-forum. I'm not sure what water submerging even classifies as.)
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I don't do it. I just brine it, let it air dry about 3 days, put it in the fridge for a month washing every other day, oil it and vacpack it.
Te only bad havarti I ever had was the one I dropped that rolled across the floor and fell into the kitty litter box. It was real bad! :-\
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haha OH NO! That's the worst! Sounds like a worst case scenario. uhg. I don't even want to contemplate that.
Though it might just be a spicier form of salting. ;)
I might drop the water trick if I can't find any reasonable reply from experience. Or I might do one in water and the other not and see how they compare.
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I've never even tried it. I don't think John did it last week either. O rmaybe the week before last ... ???
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Nah, I went through all Havarti making threads. Nothing.
The New England Cheesemaker woman recommends it alone, as far as I can find.
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John did a comparison of recipes here last week. Might give you some ideas.
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Baby Chee, there are 5 Havarti Recipes compared here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1873.0.html), none had that step, could be an interesting A-B comparison test . . .
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Yep, I looked all those over to see what was going on with submerged water pre-brine.
I will do one havarti tomorrow and another the next day. I'll try the two methods and compare the cheeses when tasted.
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Maybe she does that instead of washing the curds? I'll have to go read it again slowly.
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Nope she does wash the curds ... Maybe so it will wash away the whey for some reason. Looks like it's still in the mold as well.
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I want to follow up on this thread. Baby Chee did you ever try this recipe.
I made a havarti yesterday and after washing the curds with hot water, half the whey was poured off, and cool water added to lower the curd temp. It was then hooped and pressed under it's own weight for 2 hours flipping regularly. Then is was put into cold water for three hours, then into brine for 4 hours. It is now in the drying process, and with the temps like they are at the moment I an tossing up whether I will give it one day or two, before putting in the cave. I am still deciding whether too wax or natural rind.
The recipe said that the texture of the cheese should be open. So I was wondering whether anyone else had done this?
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YEP!
I did this one indeed.... but....
(http://www.trashmonkeytees.com/Images/butt_monkey_watermark.jpg)
I opened this cheese WAY early. It was the first cheese I decided to open after I began making cheeses and had 60 or 8 in the caves. So it turned out awful. Kinda. It was un-matured and super salty, but I loved eating it with tomatoes from the garden.
Sorry I couldn't give a real report on the real cheese.
Keep me posted on how yours turns out, because I might try this again.
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I transfered this into the cave after only 24 hours, and the temps here hit 38C today. Turned again last night, and the texture at the moment is soft and springy, but firm and holding together well. Certainly not what I expected after moulding cold curds, and pressing under it's own weight. So we wait.....
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I have to say this has me more than curious. I can't find any other refrence to water soaking a cheese before you brine. I will keep looking.
Maybe I will just email her? I check both versions of her book and can't find a recipe for Havarti.
Just send off an email hopefully I will get an answer.
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Mine is a recipe from Neil and Carol Willman's cheese book.
Said that it was similar to a Gouda in that it had washed curds, but from there, it is completely different. First 1/3 of the whey was removed and the curd heated to 38C using 2 ltr of 60C water. Then after another hour, 1/2 of the whey was removed and cold was replaced until curds were 28C. Then moulded, then placed in a water bath at 8-10C then brined in a cold brine.
Most unusual, and I really didn't expect the curds to knit, I thought I was going to have to press them in the end, but I didn't and so far they are holding together well. Flips without any feeling that it is going to fall apart, so this is as much a surprise to me as to you.
SO we will both watch and see what happens. Still can't download photo's yet, but will update with them as soon as I can.
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I always wonder how people figured this stuff out.
Most cheeses I suspect were made over wood or coal fires centuries ago, and mistakes or experiments with existing materials surrounding cheese production were incorporated into technique over time. What would make a person submerge the cheese in warm water is curious. Maybe someone dropped their curds in the hot water pot used for other cooking.
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I wondered the same thing. Was the cheese put into water, then suddenly a couple of hours down the track, they suddenly saw the salt still in the cup and realized that they had forgotten to add it to the brine, so then placed the cheese into the brine, etc, etc....
You do have to wonder though.
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It's all a part of the magic left to us by our forefathers and mothers.
Thank God!
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Update, I decided to let this get a natural rind, as the outside is fairly pitted, due to the non-press step. I have brined a couple of times, and a white mould has developed on the surface. Not worrying be at this stage though.
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Well one good thing about Havarti you don't have to wait long.
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I got an email responce back form Jim Wallace today about their Havarti procedure.
I asked:
"What the purpose is of submerging the cheese in plain water before brining?"
His answer:
"The functional purpose of the cold water bath is to quickly drop the temp of the cheese and slow the bacteria down to keep from producing too much acid. This is what makes the Havarti what it is."
So now I have to try this new procedure and see what difference is makes from my old procedure.
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Well considering my room temp got so high, it will remain to be seen, whether it made any difference to mine.
Aging well at the moment. Has some white mould forming, but not a concern. I think I will open this on new year. It will be one month old, and hopefully will give me some idea whether I should attempt to do this again.
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The explanation of the cool water soak makes sense. Something good to know.
I had thought the purpose would be to fill the cheese pores with water so the cheese doesn't absorb too much salt from the brine.
Which brings me to ask... my recipe, from ehow.com uses a very low salt brine... 1 tablespoon of salt per quart of water. Does that seem like a bit too little salt to anyone, too?
:)
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Yes I does sound a very weak solution. I wonder if they are combining the water bath and brine one step?
Well Curiosity finally got the cat, and I opened mine on Monday. The flavour is young, but definately havarti, but because of the "no pressing" step, the body is pitted with holes as I thought it would be.
So I definately want to do this one again, but I will press lightly with maybe about 4lb to see if that will help the curds meld together better, and I will also wax as the rind was a bit dried and crumbly, which I don't want next time round.
I can't tell you what the water bath step did to the cheese, as I have never made it without, but it certainly doesn't seem to have hurt the flavour of the cheese at all.
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Tea ... so your recipe say place the molded cheese in plain water? Is this after pressing for awhile or just put the curds in the mould then in plain water?
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Oops sorry Deb just found this question. The original recipe doesn't call for pressing at all, just press under it's own weight, and flip regularly for 2 hours. Then into a cold water bath for another 2 hours, depending on the size of the cheese. Minimum time 1hr, maximum time 3hr, then into a 20% cold brine solution for 3-4 hours, again depending on the size of the cheese.
So last time I did exactly that, but I also left it to get a natural rind. It was probably salt washed @ 3-4 times during the month long aging. The flavour though young, was very promising, but the rind was salty, and a bit dry. The rind and also the body were very pitted and holey and a bit crumbly.
So I did this again yesterday, only this time I made 2 smaller but thicker squares, using my fetta mould, and stacked them on each other for some weight, and kept flipping and rotating them round. This time the surface of the cheese is a lot smoother, so hopefully so is the inside. I am drying in the cave, (too hot at room temp) then this time I will wax, and see what the difference is going to be. Will keep you updated on their progress.
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Thanks for the update!
I have been pressing my Havarti with the weight of a second cheese and a large can of tomatoes about 8 pounds (about 3.5 kilos). It seem to meld better.
I haven't had the chance to make any cheese lately except the Leipäjuusto I posted a few days ago but I need to try this to see what it does to myeese. Maybe next Thursday or Friday when I smoke my pastrami. I think that is the only project left hanging right now.
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According to pressing and salting, this is the paragraph from my recipe:
Drain off the water/whey and continue stirring and breaking up curds while putting directly into cheese hoops.
Place on followers and begin pressing with 680 gr. weight per 454 gr. cheese.
Remove cheeses from press, turn over, and put back in hoops.
Return to press. Repeat 2 more times every 15 min.
Repeat 3 more times every hour.
Remove from press and place in saturated brine for 2 1/2 hours per 454 gr. of cheese depending on desired salt content.
Alternatively, rub cheese wheels with coarse flake dry salt once per day for each 1.8 kg. of cheese.
I made two Havarties 3-1/2 months ago, a plain one and a caraway seeds one. I cut into the plain a week ago, it was awsome, soft, creamy with a very litle sharp after taste. I can hardly wait to make the next batch, we like this cheese more than Edam and Gouda that are very simmilar in the make.
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Alex they look wonderful. I note that after 3 months that your rind is still looking fairly pale. Mine went very yellow at around the 3 week mark, and was very dry. Did you age these in a humid environment? Just wondering how you kept the rinds looking so soft.
I waxed my two yesterday, so I am hoping that they will remain nice and soft. Fingers crossed.
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They looks great ALex. That's pretty much the way I make mine. I am just curious about this pure water bath that Babychee mentioned from Ricci's site. Just seems odd but who knows?
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The cheeses in the pics were taken at 7 days, just after drying and then I waxed them. So Tea, not to worry, you'll get a wanderfull rind.
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Oh whew, I was beginning to think that I was doing something very wrong.
Well they were waxed and I am going to turn them every couple of days for a couple of weeks in the cave, then I might transfer them to the fridge. I'll see how it goes.
Many thanks for your help.
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Tea,
I don't know the size of your wheel, mine is 6" in dia and I turned it once a week to ballance the pressure due to self weight. Here it is cut in half after 3 months:
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Oh wow Alex, that looks perfect. So are you happy with the flavour?
Mine are just in two smaller squares, only about 4x3 each.
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The flavor?
As I've never eat a "real/original" Havarti, I can hardly wait to make it again the same way as this one. I wish you could taste it.
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So do I wish that I could taste it! I too have never tried a "real" havarti, only the processed store bought version.
Well glad that you enjoyed it enough to want to make again. I have decided that I am going to wait for my birthday to open mine. That way I won't be tempted to open them sooner. So fingers crossed that they taste good.
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That Havarti look great Alex. I can almost taste it! Wonderful job as always! That one of the favorites in my family.
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Thanks to all for the compliments, you are so kind :-[
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You just make wonderful looking cheese Alex!
Well tomorrow I get to try this water bath thing. I'll let you know!
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Well I have been tending to these well, but I completely forgot about them for a day this week, as I was organizing a big birthday party, so decided to transfer them into the fridge for safe keeping. Decided on Friday that I had better open one and check that I hadn't ruined the cheese.
The body of the cheese looks like Alex's with small holes scattered through out. The cheese itself is moist, soft and pliable, and very creamy. The flavour at the moment is young, but still beautiful. The block was about 2 pounds in weight, and it is almost gone. Even my husband, who is not a cheese lover at the best of times, has come back asking for more.
So I still don't know what the water bath does to the cheese, but this one is a keeper. Hoping to make it again today, as this one is disappearing fast. Sorry still can't post pics.
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I forgot to watch mine this week and they had mold on them! EGH!
I washed the snot out of them but I will always smell the molk now - could be in my head but once mold has touched my cheese I can always smell it.
I vac packed them today and scrubbed down my mini cave. I am very sensitive to mold smells. They looked great and felt squishy so looking good.
Th Eggnog cheese seems to be looking it's smell though. Looks good but that really strong eggnog smell is fading away.
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Tia, for a moment I thought you tasted my cheese in some way. You described my cheese, except "very creamy", may be because mine was 3 months old, it sticked to the knife very litle.
I happy you made such a wanderfull Havarti. I'm still waiting to open the cumin one I have in the cave for almost 4 months.
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Thanks Alex, and let us know how the cumin one turns out when you open it. I have been wondering about the inclusion of things. I wonder what a layer of smoked paprika would be like.
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Don't wait for the cumin Tea, go for the smoked paprika :D