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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Coagulation => Topic started by: Mersunwea on December 23, 2010, 01:37:47 PM
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Hi,
I have a Chaource recipe that calls for 8 hours ripening of the milk after the starters have been added, at 68F. Then to add 2 drops (??) of rennet and let it sit for 8 hours more at 68F.
What happened is that after the firt 8 hours ripening, the milk had already thickened, with the same texture as yougurt.
I added the rennet and let sit for the 8 hours the recipe indicates, and after this time, the milk had the exact yougurt texture. So, what failed here?
Can you guys help? Thanks!!!
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Most likely, you used too much culture, leading to a very fast acidity buildup. How much culture did you use?
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I agree with linuxboy.
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The recipe called for 1/4 teasp. MA4001/4002, 1/4 tsp P. Candidum and a pinch of geo 15 for 2 gallons of milk. Was also calling for 1/8 tsp of Aroma B, but I don't have that.
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That is a wierd recipe. Where did you get it from?
First off, you should add the rennet with the ripening culture. Secondly, MM100 would work far better in such soft delicate cheese than MM4000 series. Heck, even Flora Danica would be better. Third, use 3-4 drops lipase (1/16th of 1 teaspoon) per gallon. Fourth, 68F is a bit too cool. It's okay to slow down acidification if indeed you intend on adding the rennet later but why? Just put them together as I suggest and crank it up to 77F. Lastly, 8 hours sounds about right. The real way to measure it is to look at the whey that floats on top of the curd. at about 1/4" over the curd you are in the perfect acidity. This could take 8 hours one day and 10 on another day and 6.5 on another - depending on room temp, air density, season, animal feed etc. Best to use is non-homogenized full fat milk.
Good luck!
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another variable might be the milk. Was it fresh or store bought? According to the AOC regulation it is produced normally using either but the make is probably slightly different.
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The TA in 4001 is meant to ensure rapid acidification to complement the slower lactococcus variants. It can be used for fresh curd, but it will acidify faster than if you use MM or FD, like Irather said.
The recipe you have anticipates using only lactococcus in a long acidification method (meaning 1% starter bulk equivalent, to get to about a 24-hour set). It matches the activity of the starter with the make process. If your starter does not match what the recipe intended, of course it will behave completely differently.
You can either do what Irather suggested and add rennet right away (I usually do this), or use less culture and/or a slower culture, and add when the acidity drops to a pH of 6.0-6.2. It doesn't take 8 hours though. With MM, it's more like 3-4 hours usually.
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zenith1 regardless of AOC, chaource is actually one of the easiest cheeses to make. It is very forgiving and can be done in a million different styles. Think of a simple chevre or crottin, now just apply these techniques to cow's milk instead of goats' milk. That's what you get. Super easy and very tasty. So rich that it feels like a triple creme. Of course, I agree with you that you need to use the best possible milk. If you can get local, organic, grass-fed non-homogenized your cheese will rock. Standard supermarket milk will give you mediocre results. Also, don't jump on a milk just because it says "organic". The national brands like Horizon and Organic Valley ultra-pasteurize and homogenize their milk rather violently. It's very poor quality milk and won't produce curd at all as it is totally depleted of these enzymes and the proteins have been modified by the high heat treatment.
Linuxboy Ooops, I may have read it too quickly, it was a TA series and not MM, sorry. TA is thermophilic but I think that at 68F it will just yogurt that milk into something rather tangy, don't you think? Can always use a farmstead culture (mix thermo and meso) but if it's up to me, I would use MM100, maybe give it some extra gas development and buttery feeling with a pinch of MD89
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I agree Iratherfly- the best milk is quite often not what you would expect, I was only commenting on the possibility that if it were raw milk, then you have natural bacteria to factor in to the process. Natural good bacteria.
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ut I think that at 68F it will just yogurt that milk into something rather tangy, don't you think?
Depends on the TA. In Danisco's line, their 40 series will actually firm up the milk nicely without having hugely excessive acidification, not like bulgaricus or acidophilus. TA is a really interesting bacteria.
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Wow!!!!!!!! I will take into consideration all this above. Thanks to EVERYONE very MUCH!!!!
I got the recipe in 'The Cheesemaker's Manual' of Margaret Peters-Morris (page 145). When I contacted the author about my concerns her reply was: 'The recipe is precise, it is written from my studies of lactic cheese technology in France. What you have conveyed with respect to the character of the milk after 8 hrs of ripen time is also normal. The milk was starting to set up from the action of the culture. The rennet is still added to achieve secondary coagulation to produce a curd that is possible to ladle into moulds. The curd is still relatively soft in comparison to a hard and semi firm cheese. Without knowledge in cheesemaking one would assume the results are wrong. Lactic cheese is made with a primary and secondary coagulation to achieve a soft delicate and fairly acidic cheese. The curd is then allowed to drain over a period of 16 - 24 hours to expel the whey however the final moisture in the cheese is still high.'
By the way, I buy the milk in the store (Whole Foods), as I still do not dare to work with raw milk as I have only been making cheese for one year.
Any suggestions I accept all!!!!!!
THANKS AGAIN ;D
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If I can clarify and expand:
character of the milk after 8 hrs of ripen time is also normal. The milk was starting to set up from the action of the culture. The rennet is still added to achieve secondary coagulation to produce a curd that is possible to ladle into moulds.
it is decidedly NOT normal. The technology she is describing is commonly called a slow-set semi-lactic curd. Absolutely right, in this technology, the rennet is added 6-8 hours after culture addition, at a pH of 5.8-6.0. Sometimes a little lower, depending on the preference. From what you described, the milk had already fully coagulated into a thick curd, like yogurt, which points to a pH of below 4.9. This pH is too low. If you were to add rennet at this point, it would not be correct. It would firm up the curd, yes, but it is not the proper method because based on your description, you are using a fast set semi-lactic curd. In the fast set, the curd acidifies much faster, and you only need to wait 3-4 hours before adding rennet. You do not add rennet at such a low pH, when you already have a full, lactic curd set.
The third technology, as irather mentioned is to add rennet and culture at the same time. This is a third hybrid variant that can be used for both fast set and slow set technologies.
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Allow me to bud in. For the longest time I added the culture and rennet at about the sam time when making a lactic style cheese. Because I only use raw milk which is obviously not homogenized, the cream always raised to the top. Before I ladled the curd into the molds, I scooped the cream off first. Therefore I always ended up with low fat cheeses. Needless to say, I am talking about cows milk here.
I have long been wondering how to overcome this problem until I read a post by LB in which he suggested adding the culture first and let the milk acidify to pH of 6.0. At this point LB suggested adding the rennet and stir the floating cream into the milk. The time it takes now for the milk to curdle should be short enough to prevent the cream to rise.
Since reading this post, I have adopted this procedure. I have found that it might take as much as 8 hours to properly acidify the milk to the desired pH. I use MA4000, about 1/8 tsp and 1/8 aroma B for 5 gallons of milk. I have managed to capture the cream into the curd tis way with the milk of Ayrshire cows and the milk of Holsteins. However, the milk of Jerseys prove more obstinate, especially this time of year.
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Hi Jos, It's been a long time! I didn't even know you make these softies!
My way of dealing with it is easy. I actually watch for the floating butterfat and instead of ladeling I scoop out curd with a ricotta basket or slotted spoon. As I do that, I aim to grab some of that wonderful butterfat on my way out, assuring these gorgeous lumps of fat in every curd filling until the mold has been topped off; assuring much butterfat chinks in between the layers of curd.
FYI, my preferred milk for those is the whole milk from Skytop brand, non-homogenized of course, gently pasteurized, organic and grass-fed -and it's local too. I am not suggesting you replace your raw milk but for testing purposes if you want to try it - I get it at whole foods and since we live so close to each other, I am sure your Whole Foods have it too. 1 gallon + 1/8 tsp CalCl2 gives me about 2Lb. worth of cheese which is very high.
One last thing; I recommend using MM100 for this process. The MA4000 series is better for harder cheese in my opinion.
How's the creamery going? We need to catch up!
Linuxboy - I actually thought that the method of throwing everything in the milk at once and coming back the next morning to make the cheese IS the traditional French method. Am I wrong? On second thought, it's very Ron Pupil late-night infomercial Americana, "set it and forget it!". I must try some of those TA cultures on unsuspecting sub 90F milk at once! Never ventured into it. In my last Tomme I used TA60 and MA4001 as a farmstead culture. I did cook the curd to 100F however. Let's see how it goes.
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Thanks for your suggestions Yoav.
Sure I make these softies. In fall and winter I make a real stinker, a lactic cheese washed with a high alcohol content brine. Below is a sample. In spring and summer there are too many flying fans of this cheese so I make a dryer and not so smelling one; this being a chaource based cheese.
I have considered the technique you describe and might give it a try after all. In fact, now I come to think of it, I have been using a combination of both our techniques the last time I made a batch two weeks ago. This was 5 gallons of raw jersey milk. After final coagulation, there was still a lot of cream floating on top. You can imagine the amount of cream this time of year. While ladling the curd, I tried to capture some cream with every scoop. But because of the enormous amount, the moulds I filled first had much more cream in it. These turned out to be triple cream and are delicious.
I do like Skytop milk, I always get some when I am in Whole Foods and there is still some full fat on the shelf. This is not always the case. I am usually there towards the end of their delivery cycle.
I'll try MM100 next time.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YvXFbikKJfg/TSvI7SqrPWI/AAAAAAAACD0/n4FC1JZJiko/s1600/IMG_4118.JPG)
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Yes, this is why I use a ricotta basket ot slotted spoon instead of a ladle, so I grab a little fat with each but also so it doesn't overfill with liquid and the butterfat chunks floats off the ladle back to the vat.
Your cheese is (as always) gorgeous. How long is this wash? Kind of an Epoisses in St Mercellin shoes :)
Are you making it here or upstate?
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I make them here with milk from upstate.
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I make them here with milk from upstate.
I'm an epoisse freak, my wife is a St. Marcellin freak (OK, so am I). We've effectively tilted with the pic from the last page, Jos.
Yes, yes, I am concentrating on tomme, then likely reblochon to eat something in the meantime. But...uh, say...for future reference. Can you share something of your process? Please?
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FYI, my preferred milk for those is the whole milk from Skytop brand, non-homogenized of course, gently pasteurized, organic and grass-fed -and it's local too. I am not suggesting you replace your raw milk but for testing purposes if you want to try it - I get it at whole foods and since we live so close to each other, I am sure your Whole Foods have it too. 1 gallon + 1/8 tsp CalCl2 gives me about 2Lb. worth of cheese which is very high.
After some consideration, I chose Skytop Farms pasteurized grass-fed non-homogenized organic whole milk for last weekend's "mini-tommes" and am very pleased with the results so far. Got what I thought was a good yield but nowhere near what you are indicating!
Having heard all of the 'organic means ultra-pasteurized' chitchat here (and seeing it designated so on so many labels) I was leery enough to call them before buying and the nice lady who answered indicated that they use HTST or 'flash' pasteurization only.
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I'll try to post my procedure within the next few days.
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Brandnetel - That milk is fantastic. The yield I mentioned was for Chaource type cheese - NOT Tomme. Tomme would naturally give you far lower yield. (The harder the cheese, the lower the yield).
I am actually surprised that their milk is HTST. It sure doesn't act like it. It acts as if the process is much more gentle. The curd quality and enzymatic activity on it feel better than some raw milk I've purchased! Really? HTST???
As for the ultra pasteurized stuff; That's not small local farms like Skytop. it's the national organic brands that do that. They are monsters who jack up the price of milk for their organic claims but really practice all the stuff that the supermarket dairies do. Feed cows silage and corn instead of grass, design a flavorless diet, mix milk from thousands of cows that are hundreds of miles away and ...ultra pasteurize it to give it a 4-6 week shelf time and allow cross country trucking (forget about local) and its slower move in supermarket stocks due to its premium price. It is overly sweet and feels more like Pramalat UHT milk than real milk.. Terrible stuff. The only difference is no antibiotics and hormones used and the corn and silage feed are organic. Total scam.
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Thanks Lynuxboy!! (and everyone contributing) :D
I will follow your method. Frankly speaking even for a newcomer like me (but adicted already to make cheese), the thick yogurt curd seemed weird (and frustrating). I will come back with results! :-)
Thanks again