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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: Baby Chee on September 08, 2009, 07:35:45 PM
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I began making cheese 5 days ago. Each day I made a 3.5 Gallon Whole Milk Gouda (until today when I made a Camembert). Here's the photo of the 4 brined wheels drying in the fridge....
(http://cityofclifford.com/GoudaStack.jpg)
So far, so good. The smaller wheel was made from a bad break due to a lack of salt in the milk. I learned, and the following wheels had far more curd. No cracks, yet. It was the typical procedure:
• Milk @ 90ºF, added salt, meso, stir
• 1 Hour later - added Rennet
• 1 Hour Later - clean break
• Cut 1/2" cubes, stirred 10 Minutes
• Set 5 minutes
• Drained 1/3 Whey
• Added 175ºF Water to raise temp to 92ºF, stirred
• Set 15 Minutes
• Drained Whey to level of Curd
• Added 175ºF Water to raise temp to 100ºF, stirred 15 Minutes
• Set 30 Minutes
• Drained Whey
• Transfered to cheesecloth in mold
• Pressed 25 lbs. - 20 Minutes
• Flipped, Pressed 35 lbs. - 20 Minutes
• Flipped, Pressed 50 lbs. - 12 Hours
• Brined 12 Hours in Whey-Vinegar-Salt Brine @ 5.0 pH
• Pat Dry, placed on rack in fridge, flipped daily
So far, so good. Any advice for me?
I'm going to eat one myself and give the rest away for Christmas. They'll be waxed in red later.
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Congrats Baby Chee. Now to age them successfully. Hope they taste wonderful.
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Is your goal just to make a LOT of cheese, or do you want to make really good cheese? Just my perspective, but for just 5 days as a cheesemaker, you seem to be moving too fast. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but everyone makes a lot of mistakes while learning to make cheese. LOOKING good is not always the goal. Slow down, read, ask questions, make one cheese, read some more and ask some more questions. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained by reading every old post in this forum. There are some very wise, experienced people here that are willing to help. I've only been making cheese about 6 months (so I am NOT one of the wise ones, YET), and even with a degree in Microbiology, I still make a lot of mistakes. But not as many as before thanks to the wonderful, supportive people in this forum.
There are many little techniques in cheesemaking that make all the difference between a sad, mediocre cheese and a fabulous cheese. Pressing under whey, flocculation, multiplier times, pH targets, ..... We've all made our share of sour, inadequate cheeses, so I'm really just trying to help you before you experience that 3 or 4 months from now. ;D Don't lose the enthusiasm, but be sure your quality is headed in the right direction before you waste a lot of milk.
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Baby Chee, great looking cheeses!
Sailor has some good points but then they are made now and bull heading your way ahead also works. FYI, with the two Gouda's and two Havarti's I made last month I varied a couple parameters on each to see what the difference is and what works better for me.
That said, next stage for you is aging which I and many find the toughest. Here's a thread on a dark mold (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1974.0.html) problem I have/had that was very interesting and another on a white deposit (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1973.0.html) that was better news. Through those two threads Francois really opened my eyes to problems of natural rind aging Gouda's. Also, this thread (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1970.0.html) was illuminating for me on oiled rinds.
Again, great looking cheeses!
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They look really good to me Baby Chee! Other than aging I think the hardest part for me is getting the right amount of salt without seeming to salty. I rarely use salt so I always think things taste salty.
As far as going full steam ahead .. I say go for it! Even if you don't make the world best cheese at first you will be learning techniques like what a clean break is and what a good curd looks like or even how much to put in your molds. It's all good! Have a great cheese making day! ;)
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Thanks Debi. I like thundering in, especially with this type of stuff. When I began home brewing years ago I just lept on 5 gallon batches weekly despite needing over a month to get results. By rotating batches and improving, I got really good at everything during a year and refined my styles well.
Since these turned out so well, I decided to do way more. At present I have the 4 Goudas and 1 Cam. done. Tomorrow and Thursday are Havartis, and then a couple Stiltons on Friday. And then I stop for the month. Later in the month I plan to do more Cam. and some Cheddars before a pause through the end of the year. That way I figure it all out, and if it works I get some great cheese. If it doesn't work, I get experience. So far so good! Just a lament at loss of curd today.
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Thanks for the link to the mold, CH!
Now I am curious about Olive Oil and salt as a coating. I saw threads about the horrors of too much moisture in waxed Gouda, and cracked wax from pressures inside, and also someone with a "swiss Gouda" which blew the top off the wax as the cheese developed air pockets inside. I've also read the threads (several) on vacuum packing.
So far I've been mold free on the surfaces. I'll keep an eye out, though.
The first Gouda had a bad break so it was small. The other two were straight forward, but the last I tried a softer press and wanted to see how a softer Gouda would work. It's not that soft, though. That was my experiment so far.
I've got an old brew freezer with a temp control I will cave my Brie in. I might be flirting with disaster by putting the Stiltons in there too, though they'll all be in tupperware containers with lids slightly ajar. The Goudas will need a completely separate fridge set at a high temp, but if I go with a brining rind, it might be ok with the moldy cheeses.
Any advice? Should I just keep the Goudas in the regular fridge?
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Do you have a vaccuum sealer machine? I'd vacpack it after about a month. I always wait a month so it gets some good fresh air.
I don't know if it's just me but I also like to prop the door open every other day for about 20 minutes to let the cheese have fresh air for awhile. Might be superstious but I think they like it. ::)
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I've never gotten a vacuum packing machine, but have always wanted one for the hops I grow out back (more homebrew stuff). This might be the time to go for it. They aren't too expensive.
I've read quite a few wax stories here. Some people have good luck, others get wax troubles.
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I have only done a few waxes and I didn't like it. My cheese had tiny little bits of wax on it and the cheese seemed to moist for me - but I do mostly Italian hard cheeses. I need to tr Camembert soon to see if I like it better than store bought.
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Didn't mean to bust your butt "Baby". I misread you and I appologize. With your beer making background you have a lot more experience than most beginners here and I'm sure you have the "feel" for learning from experimentation. You learn to make beer by making lots of beer, You learn to make cheese by making lots of cheese. So go make lots of cheese.
I don't know how you can even think about taking a hiatus though.
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The final form of 4 days Gouda making....
(http://cityofclifford.com/4Goudas.jpg)
The wax was hell, but I got it right in the end.
*phew*
2 Months and I'll give them a whirl.
And, yes.... that is HAM above the cheese.
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Very nice wax job Baby Chee.
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Thanks Debi. :D
Once I got the process figured out it was quick and clean.
I didn't throw on labels since I am using colors to name the cheeses:
Red-Gouda
Yellow-Havarti
Black-Cheddar (unless I do a gauze wrap)
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Good idea but after awhile you may have more cheeses than colors. Especially with hard cheeses that take a long time to age.
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"You're gonna need a bigger..." fridge. ;D
Wow, unbridled enthusiasm! Baby Chee, you're a genuine inspiration. What have I been sitting around for? So many cheeses, so little time.
I would respectfully suggest you rethink the lack of labeling. ??? You may want to glance at a cheese and see the type & date made at the very minimum. This seems especially important given the speed with which you are currently turning out cheese wheels.
Absolutely impressive!
I'm using the Reynolds (Aluminum Co.) vacuum sealer. It's handheld, costs $10, and works great. The quart-sized and gallon-sized bags are very reasonably priced.
I have also been waxing with good success. The key is to make sure your cheese is not weeping and the rind is dry.
-Boofer-
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Thanks Boofer!
I was thinking of writing the dates on the Goudas and other cheeses' wax covering with a Sharpie. But, I can only tell two of the Goudas apart now due to size. All except the first were made almost perfectly identical, though.
Yeah, why wait???
I have all going at this time: Cheese, A Primer.
My Cam is growing the mold on day 6.
My Stiltons are getting that light blueing on day 3 and have been smoothed.
The Goudas are finished and waxed.
The Havartis are just drying a little and will probably wax by the weekend.
I have few doubts that these cheeses will work out fairly well. They might not be up to taste and delicacy of what the more seasoned and professional people here make or like, but they can't be so bad unless they get infected or my Cam. runs. In 2-3 months I should have some great gifts and edibles.
It's great!
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The advice to try a recipe and later sample it to make sure the taste & texture is right was corrective for my cheese making efforts. My technique was not quite right for the first Colby I made and I was not really satisfied with that try. Today I applied some knowledge gleaned from this forum and I feel a lot better about my second Colby effort. One change from the original recipe was to cut the amount of salt. That alone should make for a more palate-pleasing cheese.
-Boofer-
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The "proper" quantity of salt is really important. It is not just for palate pleasing. The real purpose of salt a lot of times is to slow down the bacterial action so they don't overacidify and sour the cheese. Look at several recipes and shoot for a happy medium on the salt recommendations.
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My next cheeses will definitely have a better salt level in brine, and I will use my pH meter. I was using pH strips this time, which wasn't precise. My bottles with registration fluids burst in the cold this winter and drained all over my brewing shelves.
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I just sampled the first Gound--17days in.
Quite good! No a great cheese yet, but I can see where it is going, and it is going very well.
White, a little crumbly, rich and creamy, not too salty but a good mix, hard, sweet. I am pretty sure the texture and taste will mellow and blend in the next 3 weeks. My first ever cheese and it is going well.
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You ate it already? Patience young Skywalker it will take time to learm the ways of the force!
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I read another person jumping in at 12 days... and at 17, I had to suddenly try. I think my goudas and havartis will be pretty good home made cheeses in most ways, but am concerned about the taste (salt vs. cream). This one will definitely be a good gouda.
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The starter bacteria are still really active for up to 60 days (and beyond). So, early cheeses may taste a bit sour and have an off flavor because they are still doing their thing. Most hard cheeses really need at least 60 days before you can evaluate your success. If they taste good now, they'll taste even better with a little more aging.
Early on, we were chomping at the bit and cracked a Farmhouse Cheddar at 20 days and it was just awful. Started to pitch it. Instead, we vac bagged it and put it back in the cave. Opened it again around 70 days and it was great. Sour, bitter flavor all gone.
You wouldn't pull a cake out of the oven when it's only half-baked would you?
We all know the temptation to cut early. It's worth the wait. ;D
I love the Skywalker analogy. May the farce be with you... ::)
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I'll contain myself with the other cheeses. First time is always the worst.
How does texture improve for hard cheeses? This was a little crumbly, more like a store purchased cheddar than gouda. It's not as big a deal as taste, but I am curious.
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Bacteria do their thing until they run out of food (lactose, etc.) - usually within 60 days. THAT'S why the Federal 60 day rule applies to raw milk cheeses. There's nothing left for bad organisms to feed on.
The bacteria themself start to die off and release proteolytic enzymes into the cheese. These enzymes can have a LOT to do with the final taste AND texture. The longer some cheeses sit, the more these enzymes can work their magic. Same thing happens with an aged wine and to a lesser extent, beer. The bacteria are shot, they have generated CO2 for carbonation and then the enzymes take over. Proteolysis chemistry is really complex, and interesting, but that's the basics of aging. Do cheesemakers need to study proteolytic enzymes? Heck no. Just be patient. It will happen naturally. BUT... that's also why following recipes accurately and consistent technique are important. Everything we do along the way - pH, moisture, lactose content, aging temp, aging time, etc. - creates the correct environment for these enzymes to work.
In the case of Parmesan and other "Italian" cheeses, we add Lipase (an enzyme) in the beginning, so that classic Parmesan taste and smell comes from early enzyme activity, not just bacterial action. I understand that the commercial guys have other enzymes that enhance flavor and speed up the aging process, etc. , that we don't have access to. I'd love to know more about them.
So there is a LOT of difference between a 20 day old cheese and one that's 90 or more. ::)
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I cannot agree more with Sailor Con Queso. The difference in cheese flavor, aroma, and to an extent texture, changes dramatically over time.
Its quite amazing. (to me...)
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I have no doubt. I just got antsy to see how it was doing. If I check it every week until 90 days, I should have an ounce of well aged cheese waiting for me.
Beer is a little different, because unless you have something like a wild ferment Lambic, beer just becomes water after a year or two. The flavor mellows too much, leaving the fairly tasteless alcohol behind. It's good to know cheese can age for a year or more.
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Try Mead or a variety thereof. Aged and a delicate deep flavor for years to come! Beats beer in the long term, but not in the short term. Cheese is long term and short term, just as a comparison.
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Some cheeses can't/don't age well for a long time - gouda, havarti, etc. I haven't figured out the difference in the proteolytic cycles, but some cheeses are "finished" long before others. Why? Just guessing here, but at least with washed curd cheeses we are dealing with much lower residual lactose levels, so the bacteria run their course and start releasing proteolytic enzymes sooner.
That begs an answer from someone with more knowledge of milk science than me.
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The easiest way for me to resist temptation is to make a good mix of cheeses that age quickly and cheeses that don't. The ones that don't after about a mont get vac packed and buried in the bottom of the cave (or in winter in "the room." Out of site almost out of mind.
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I'll have to figure this out... it's a strategy.
I just tried the cheese again (20 days) and it tastes exactly like the store bought gouda, but it is white. The salt vs. curd flavor is really good. Can't wait to see how it mellows in the next months. Luckily my other 3 gouda wheels are safely sealed and my first one plays as test sacrifice.
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Well you can tint it with amatto. My family won't eat white cheese for some reason.
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They won't eat WHITE cheese?!? haha That's awful. It seems like an extremely picky way to approach cheese. I admit being used to the yellow goudas and cheddars and such, but now that I know an additive makes them yellow, I am loving the white stuff more.
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Nope they won't eat white cheese except mozzarella and riccotta. Fortunately I have always made hard Italian cheese and they turn yellow/tan with aging. NOw I cheat and use a few drops of amatto.
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My neighbors ran over with a huge bunch of home grown tomatoes (they are such nice people). I think they did it because the cold hit this morning and they were plucking it all off the vine...
Anyway. I tried them this morning with a chunk of my 23 day old Gouda... º_____º! AMAZING!! It is the most incredible combination I've ever tasted in the past few years. Absolutely perfect together: just Gouda and raw Tomato, nothing else.
Never thought of having them together before, but now I will always needs tomatoes.
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Nothing better than a fresh homegrown tomatoe! We had a blight up here this year and nobody got a good batch of tomatoes. Usually everyones giving them away at work this year - nothing. :'(
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My wife's family lives in upstate New York. The blight hit there early because the weather was so wet and cool. Many farmers plowed under huge fields of tomatos, and other crops, to help stop the blight from spreading.
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I guess the blight covered areas from PA to MA. I've been buying canned tomatoes in #10 cans now to make it through the winter. I expect they will go sky high. By now I usually have about 300 quarts this year nada! I use tomatoes in almost everything - must be an Italian thing. :D
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300 quarts - WOW.
I do all heritage tomatos and had tons this year. BUT, only because we have a "hoop house" - PVC frame covered in plastic. Have had ripe tomatos since the second week of June. There are LOTS of people in our area that did not have ripe tomatos until a couple of weeks ago. Weather was just too cool, wet, and cloudy. Tomatos HATE that kind of weather.
We had blight too, but kept it under control by spraying with whey.
Just started winter crops in the hoop house. Will have fresh broccoli, etc in the middle of January.
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Amazing! I had no idea it was such a blight. My mother lives in north Delaware and she has. as usual, loads and loads of tomatoes in her raised garden. Out here the weather was dry and cool until the past month when it got hot and wet.
I was never crazy for tomatoes until this year when the neighbors threw me the overflow, and now with the gouda-I'm hooked!
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I LOVE tomatoes! I wil eat tomatoes sandwiches in the summer every day even for snacks until I get a rash around my mouth from all the acid. Strawberries do the same thing to me. :-[
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Oh, yeah. The neighbors keep throwing me bags of tomatoes! They don't stop producing, despite frost having come around several times!
They worked incredibly well with my younger gouda and havarti I opened around 2 weeks old... mistake indeed, but the tomatoes with them made it all worthwhile.
As to update my 4 days of cheesery, I have now eaten 3 of those wheels! It's been over 7 weeks for a couple of those gouda. The first I opened within 2 weeks of making, and it was truly awful compared to the one opened at 4 weeks. The one opened recently at week 6 was really good, but I gave half to the tomato neighbor. My last one opens on Monday at exactly 7 weeks of manufacture.
They all pressed around 1.13 psi, according to Sailor's chart. Yet, they are all well pressed and had no air bubbles or imperfections. The older they got, the better they have been! I'll now press around 5psi and see how it goes as I enter into 25+ lb. cheeses.
What a trip! In 7 weeks I have gone from a simple press and 4 lb. cheeses to a fulcrum press and 9" ss mold doing 25 gallon batches (starting next month). I also picked up color and smoke, so my next gouda will have them both. This has ben one of the best culinary trips in my life. Now to master the mold grown cheeses....
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Congrads on your success. Keep it up.
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Way to go Chee!
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Chee,
In your initial post in this thread you discussed adding salt to improve the clean break. Could you expound on that please. I have really had a hard time getting a clean break. More like a slightly dusty break really. :) I have eliminated adding any salt until after the curds are formed and cut. I do use calcium chloride at about 1/2 tsp per gallon. So what exactly are you adding and in what amount and at what time.
Thanks.
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Yeah, that was me going off of the erroneous directions of various "how to make cheese" instructions. They said, ADD SALT, and they probably meant Calcium Chloride, and when I read Calcium Chloride I just thought SALT. So it was a total mistake. I found some brewing Ca.Chlor. in my back room and began using that instead. It improved the break.
If you are using ultra-pasteurized milk, you won't a good break. Make sure your rennet is kept refrigerated or frozen. make sure you revive or dissolve the rennet in COLD water. Anndd.... not sure what else I can tell you. My mind is a little scattered at the moment. There must be a reason for the problem in break, and you'll find it with time.
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You can add salt to the curd in the vat. It retards acid development which, while not advantagious in gouda, is great for other cheeses. It is, however, unrelated to clean break.
Clean break is having enough Ca ions, rennet and the right pH drop. I hate clean break though, use floculation, it's much more accurate.
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That's true. My first cheese didn't have a clean break and it still delivered a good amount of cheese. I'm sure if it matured enough it would have been a fine gouda.
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You can add salt to the curd in the vat. It retards acid development which, while not advantagious in gouda, is great for other cheeses.
So Francois, under what circumstances would you add salt to help control acidity? How do you determine how much salt to add?
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It is difficult for me to say without violating confidentiality, as it is something we do specifically for a certain cheese. I think I can say generally though, there are certain cheeses that are designed not to melt. These cheeses are essentially dead, the culture has been deactivated in them. In a case like that you can add the salt directly to the vat because your cultures are essentially done producing acid for you and will be killed off anyway. I kow that's vague and doesn't give you guidelines but it is the basic idea behind when you'd use the premise.
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Havarti is one
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Not any havarti I have ever made. I have made traditional smear and various levels of high fat versions. They all needed ripening time. I was refering to cheeses that are essentially done when the curd comes out of the vat. In those cases the level of salt added is to personal taste, shooting for a final salt content and realizing that most will be lost in the whey. It is a short cut to get around brining.
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Ah so you mean fresh cheeses.
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(http://cityofclifford.com/CheeDome.jpg)
Aw. The last bit of Gouda from that romp 8 weeks ago.
It's good stuff to eat through the day.