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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Semi-Hard "Sweet" Washed Curd => Topic started by: BauerHaus on November 28, 2009, 06:10:32 PM
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What am I missing?
My Gouda has no bounce, it also has tangyness and just a bit to creamy to be Gouda.
Help needed.
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Are you able to post recipe and method, it would be easier then to trouble shoot for you.
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Yes indeed a procedure and more details like how old is the cheese, how was it ripened. When you say tangy is it a sour tang? It looks very dry and crumbly in the photo.
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Sorry for the brief question, my batteries died on my wireless keyboard...
Used Margeret Morris recipe
Whole organic Homogenized milk, not Ultra
Milk in bath to 84 deg
add 1/2 tsp. Meso III
30 min ripe
add CaCl
add 3/4 tsp rennet
set 70 minutes
cut 1/2" curds
add 176deg H20 for 92.5 deg milk
stir
remove 1/3 whey
add 111deg H2O for 100deg milk
stir
let stand
laddle to cheese cloth in mold
Pressed in 7" mold
20 mins at approx 10lbs direct pressure
20 mins at 20lbs
12 hrs at 50 lbs
Heavy brine 4 hours
Air dry for 4 days
Waxed
Age since Sept 19, 8-9wks
Aged in converted wine cooler, 54deg not high moisture
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It is not dry, moister then a cheddar.
The tangy is very hard to describe. I want to say mechanical tangy but not real strong. I have had this same tangy but much stronger on my previous Havarti's that fail the taste test.
This is only my third pressed cheese.
The bouce factor is just not there?
PS Stopped on Friday at Rogue River Creamery and picked up their Best of Show Blue Cheese, todays is the tasting day!
"ROGUE RIVER BLUE JUDGED BEST CHEESE IN NORTH AMERICA AT AMERICAN CHEESE SOCIETY’S 2009 JUDGING AND COMPETITION"
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I'm not sure what Meso III is, But I use
Flora Danica (http://www.dairyconnection.com/cultures.htm) as my starter culture DVI.
It contains:
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
(LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
I saw no mention in your post of pH data, but CHR Hansen's Continental Cheese Make Guide (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=593.0;attach=1411) refers to rather specific pH values.
You might want to check out section 4.2 of that guide.
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Wayne -
Meso III (by Abiasa) is what Glengarry calls their Floria Dancia it's also sometimes called Mesophilic Aromatic Type B.
BH -
Without a way to ensure exact procedure, temperatures and pH measurements I'd have to say based on tangy flavor and curd formation it looks like a case of over ripening to me. Also looks like it needed longer pressing it's very open.
You could try using the same recipe and procedure but either (not all)
add less starter culture
or
add rennet sooner
or
add a bit more rennet
and
press for a few hours longer.
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Wayne,
I have the same Flora Donica but have been told that ic can only be used with other meso cultures and not alone as the primary culture. Do you use it alone? Has anyone else read or been told that it can't be used alone?
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I get my cultures from Dairy Connection.
The only other culture listed there for Gouda is :
MM100
(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
(LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
It also lists another culture called:
LM57
(LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris
I simply use Flora Danica as it contains all four cultures. That in fact may be the wrong approach. I am definately open to critique here.
I am definately not the "gouda" guy here. Others (John?) may have some better gouda skills.
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I have also used MM100 but that is becuase my gouda came from Peter Dixon but I have used Flora Dancia in recipes calling for Meso III or Meso Type B because as Wayne said they have the same list of ingredients.
I just noticed that Danlac Probat 222 also has the same ingredients. I need to update my charts.
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So Debi and Wayne, to clarify you DO use flora donica as a stand alone culture with no other meso added? Did I read that right? I have also noted the same ingredients but also have had conflicting information. It would be great to be able to use it alone.
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I use it alone.
But! I am not an expert at this. Essentially, I have made 3 wheels. They were edible, but nothing to write home about.
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They were edible, but nothing to write home about.
I see you and I went to the same gouda school.
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I have used Flora Dancia in lieu of Meso II in recipes but not on Gouda. I use MM100 on Gouda with a bit of Flora Dancia.
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MM100 is a better choice for Gouda.
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Sailor,
Why is MM100 better?
In looking at ingrediants, It looks like MM100 is missing (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris relative to Flora Dancia.
So, by saying that MM100 is better, could one infer that LMC is bad for Gouda?
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MM100 = (LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis + (LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris + (LLD) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis
LM57 = (LMC) Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris.
MM100 + LM57 = Flora Danica or Creme Fraiche or Aromatic B
They all use the same 4 bacteria, but not necessarily in the same proportions. And there may be other things added like lactose, so read the label. The LM57 (LMC) is available separately so you can custom mix your starter.
So when Debi uses LM100 AND some Flora Danica, she is actually doubling up on the 3 bacteria in the LM100. Flora Danica (aka Creme Fraiche or Aromatic B) are stand alone cultures.
LMC does 3 significant things. It produces Diacetyl (buttery) flavor. It produces small quantities of CO2, and it has thickening properties. That's why you use Aromatic B or Creme Fraiche when making creme cheese, creme fraiche, or Mascarpone. It's unreal how thick creme cheese is when made with Aromatic B. The addition of LMC makes a huge difference. By comparison, yogurt is very runny. My next batch of yogurt, I am going to try adding a "little" LMC to see what happens. Should be interesting because the yogurt will have to be incubated below 100F because the LMC is a meso culture. Who will win the battle, the yeast or LMC? Can they work well together? Will it be thicker? Will it make a buttery tasting yogurt?
The LLD (Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis biovar diacetylactis) in LM100 also produces a little buttery flavor and CO2, but not as much as the LMC.
So, I'm sure some producers are adding a little LMC to their Gouda, but I think it's overkill. The extra buttery flavor and thicker texture are not classic Gouda. Still a good cheese. Just a matter of preference.
Ironically, some beers, Ales for example, are supposed to have a Diacetyl (buttery) flavor from yeast and some brewmeisters struggle with keeping it out of their homebrew.
Here's a link - Diacetyl Beer (http://www.homebrewzone.com/diacetyl.htm)
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Thanks Sailor for a great explanation. It sounds like if I wanted to reduce the buttery flavor then I would do as Debi and add half of my culture dose of M100 and the other half as flora donica. If I wanted to increase the buttery flavor then I would increase the ratio of flora donica in the dose. Do I understand correctly?
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CHR Hansen's Continental Cheese Make Guide ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=593.0;attach=1411[/url])
Thanks for that guide, Wayne. That clears up the question for me about brine temperature on page 15.
-Boofer-
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Ben - Yes you can, but I personally wouldn't use Flora Danica at all. As I said, the proportions of the 4 bacteria are not stated. If you insist on the "buttery flavor" just use a known quantity of MM100, or whatever starter that you're using, and add a little LM57.
"Buttery Flavor" is a tempting aphrodisiac. Sounds really tasty, right? So why not just use Flora Danica as the primary starter for all meso cheeses?
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I guess that would depend on what you have available and what you like. I just happen to have a huge packet of Flora dancia (must have hit the wrong button ordering) and no LM57. I like the flavor of a pinch or two of Flora Dancia in my Gouda.