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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Blue Mold (Penicillium roqueforti) Ripened => Topic started by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 02:09:57 AM

Title: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 02:09:57 AM
Well, I finally got my courage up to make a blue cheese.  Not sure what I wanted to make but thinking maybe a tomme style with blue, maybe a natural rind, maybe some buttery flavors......didn't find a recipe I wanted to use....don't really know blue cheeses at all.  Yup, a fiasco potential for sure!   ::)  I used Pav's basic tomme recipe, or rather a make sheet I created based on that.  I even read parts of it during the make!   :o  I also answered a million questions from my visiting daughter  (not about cheese), made graham crackers and did something else too so I was a bit scattered. 

Make notes:
2 1/2 gallons raw goat milk, 1/2 gallon fresh from morning milking, 1/2 gallon 5 days old and everything in between.  I've done this a few times with fine success.
Heated milk to 88 F
added cultures:
3/8 tsp Flora Danica  (not a culture I use often and I wish I'd used my Kazu instead)
1/16 LM57
1/32 PR 3
1/32 Mycodore

Forgotten the ripen milk part and added rennet (2 ml single strength calf rennet) 15 minutes after cultures.  Did I mention I was distracted?   :-[


Flocculation at 11 minutes, cut curd with whisk at 38.5 minutes  (3.5 multiplier) let rest for 10 minutes
raised temp to 100 degrees but it took longer than the 30 minutes I aimed for although not by much.

Put in mold lined with whey dampened cheese cloth.  Put in press at no pressure and then very little pressure.  Flipped and rewrapped 3 times.  More knit than I expected as I had imaged a kind of craggy wheel with lots of mechanical openings.  Not so with this version!   :-[ 

Did not brine.  Maybe I should have.  Put about 4 tablespoons of salt on it while it drained on matting overnight.  The curd is soft as you can see.  I guess we could call it a sumptuous or generously proportioned wheel.  it's continued to slump a bit and no amount of lecturing on the importance of good posture has made a difference. 

So far it's still at room temp.  It was made Tuesday.  Gad, was that only yesterday?  It's in a box now with the lid ajar to allow some air circulation for drying but not so much as to dry the rind too fast.

I'd love suggestions on what to do next.  I don't think it fits into any category of blue that I've seen yet as it's not soft and not hard but somewhere in between.  There was no extra cream added but the milk is very rich.  the wheel is firm but pliant and rubbery.  It's not fragile.  I wonder whether a knitting needle will go through it easily or whether I'll need to find an extra long drill bit and bring my cordless down from the barn.   

So, how long at room temperature?  What signs will tell me that it's a good time to piece it?  What temp should it age at ideally?  Heeeeelllllllpppppppp!   :-\

I want a natural rind I think........and this is firm enough that I think brushing it will help it grow something nice.  I put a bit of mycodore in the make because I wanted to have that as part of the rind make up. 

Okay.....I'm yawning and you are probably tired of reading blue details too so I'll sign off and go wash some dishes.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Boofer on May 30, 2013, 01:42:33 PM
Well, I finally got my courage up to make a blue cheese.  Not sure what I wanted to make
Kudos for stepping into the unknown.... ??? :o ::)

raised temp to 100 degrees but it took longer than the 30 minutes I aimed for although not by much.
Did you cook it at 100 degrees or merely shoot for that target and then wrap it up? Most recipes will call for holding/cooking at the elevated temp while stirring to shrink the curds and expel whey.

It's in a box now with the lid ajar
Reminds me of a joke about a bed...I made it up. ::)

I don't think it fits into any category of blue that I've seen yet as it's not soft and not hard but somewhere in between.
So it is perhaps a semi-soft or semi-hard cheese?

Did not brine.  Maybe I should have.  Put about 4 tablespoons of salt on it while it drained on matting overnight.
So...this is a lactic Tomme then?  :P

Didn't salt the curds and didn't brine. That might be a problem. The rind will tighten up with the added salt and exclude additional salt uptake, leaving the inner paste low-salt.

If it were me, I'd want to do one or the other. Two days post-make, I would probably try to brine it. The rind should still be permeable and should still allow the salt uptake.

The curd is soft as you can see.  I guess we could call it a sumptuous or generously proportioned wheel.  it's continued to slump a bit and no amount of lecturing on the importance of good posture has made a difference. 
Looks like a cheese with dunlops. Another clue that perhaps extra whey was retained and the curds were not cooked or stirred long enough.

I'd love suggestions on what to do next.
I want a natural rind I think.
Take a peek at my Fourme d'Ambert (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9508.0.html). I was shooting for a natural rind (no mycodore though) and it was brined. Don't be in a hurry to pierce. Early piercing could lead to unwanted infection from opportunistic "floaters". There should be some blue showing on the rind before you pierce.

Distracted, huh?
 
As always, Kathrin, your postings are very lyrical and imaginative. Thanks for my morning smile. :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 02:36:16 PM
Boofer!  So nice of you to show up.  So many questions and thoughts to reply to!  What fun.   :D

First, wouldn't a lactic tomme be made without rennet?  I used rennet so I'm not sure it complies with the description of a lactic tomme.   I did keep it at 100 for a while...just forgot to include that in the notes.  The curd was not too fragile and my last cheese with poor posture came out great....that'd be the cocoa coated tomme I opened recently.  It IS obvious though that the curds did retain more whey than desired.  (way more whey) (not really "way more" but it's fun to say "way more whey")

So on the hardness question I'd guess this fits the tumescent category.   >:D.  Your Dunlops reference is a tire reference, right?  maybe this should be a Michelon (sp?) man cheese.

And I'm not sure If I deserve kudos for stepping into the unknown territory or an anonymous gift of "Cheesemaking for Dummies" from someone concerned about my obviously low IQ.    :-[

Yeah, definitely distracted.  And that's going to get worse because I have two goats due to kid in the next week and one in particular looks like a Goodyear blimp with tiny toothpick legs.  I'm thinking she has at least 4 babies in there.  Last year she had 2 but her dam always has 4. 

But I digress. back to cheese.  I will attempt a brine bath for it.  (refusing scented  bath salts no matter how much it begs)

I will check out your Fourme d'Ambert thread and hope to glean some blue intelligence.  By the way, wouldn't an ad by the Blue Men Group for blue cheese be great?  Yup, scattered brain today.   ???

Off to work....glad the commute is only about 20 steps.

But how long should I brine this puppy?  it's 3 lbs, 6.1 oz.  just popped it into the brine and it floats a lot higher that most cheese seemingly a clue that it is less dense than most cheeses and probably a LOT less dense than I.  I did salt the top and can flop it often in the brine.

Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: bbracken677 on May 30, 2013, 03:40:03 PM
or perhaps, dunlop = dun lopped over (as in tummy...belt..)   :)
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: CheeWilly on May 30, 2013, 04:19:02 PM
Tiarella,
The next blue that I will attempt will be a natural rind like the first, but I am planning on washing it for the ten day regiment creating a slurry to give it a little firmer rind.  I believe this will also hold the little blue jumpers from joining the other cheeses that in the cave.  I have kept my blue in the same cave as soem other goudas that I started, but the blue is in a sealed container with a little distilled water inside to keep the moisture up.  I have not noticed any cross contamination at this point, but I wanted to tell you about the slurry paste natural rind idea.  Good luck, and I like the way the cheese looks, very unique!
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 04:23:49 PM
Tiarella,
The next blue that I will attempt will be a natural rind like the first, but I am planning on washing it for the ten day regiment creating a slurry to give it a little firmer rind.  I believe this will also hold the little blue jumpers from joining the other cheeses that in the cave.  I have kept my blue in the same cave as soem other goudas that I started, but the blue is in a sealed container with a little distilled water inside to keep the moisture up.  I have not noticed any cross contamination at this point, but I wanted to tell you about the slurry paste natural rind idea.  Good luck, and I like the way the cheese looks, very unique!


Hmmm, what will be in the slurry and how will that help prevent blue jumpers?   ???  I'll have to go find your thread and look at your photos.  My cave is too small to have this blue in a box so I think I'll have to do ice packs in a cooler.  This will truly test my ability to remember to take care of my cheese responsibilities!   :P
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 30, 2013, 04:45:22 PM
This will not be a fiasco, but you are not going to get a traditional blue either. Because you pressed this cheese it will not have any air gaps internally to allow blue mold to grow. Blue mold likes a little salt, so a little sprinkled on top is not enough. So... what to do. Well, I make a Blue Gouda that is not salted and is lightly pressed. The secret is to pierce the cheese BEFORE brining. The salt in the brine will help keep the holes open. Even so, you will not get traditional veining, and the interior will be a very mild blue flavor. It is very important to let the blue on the outside develop as much as possible to give the cheese some added flavor. If you want blue flavor, you do not want to do a "natural rind" that encourages anything other than the PR.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 04:58:40 PM
This will not be a fiasco, but you are not going to get a traditional blue either. Because you pressed this cheese it will not have any air gaps internally to allow blue mold to grow. Blue mold likes a little salt, so a little sprinkled on top is not enough. So... what to do. Well, I make a Blue Gouda that is not salted and is lightly pressed. The secret is to pierce the cheese BEFORE brining. The salt in the brine will help keep the holes open. Even so, you will not get traditional veining, and the interior will be a very mild blue flavor. It is very important to let the blue on the outside develop as much as possible to give the cheese some added flavor. If you want blue flavor, you do not want to do a "natural rind" that encourages anything other than the PR.

Thank you Sailor for weighing in!  Much appreciated.  So maybe I'll pierce it now, halfway through the brining.  Do you think any holes will develop from gas development?  I've not eaten much blue cheese in my life so I'm not feeling the need for strong blue taste but I will see what I can do to encourage blue on the outside.  What about temp of aging? 
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 30, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
If you go straight into your "cave" at around 50F, the temperature will be too low to encourage really good initial blue growth. I have a large milk cooler that I keep at 60F just for my blues, but you can also keep them at room temp for a few days until the blue kicks in. After they get a good growth of blue, they go into my regular cave and age 60 days or more at 50F.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
If you go straight into your "cave" at around 50F, the temperature will be too low to encourage really good initial blue growth. I have a large milk cooler that I keep at 60F just for my blues, but you can also keep them at room temp for a few days until the blue kicks in. After they get a good growth of blue, they go into my regular cave and age 60 days or more at 50F.

Thank you! That helps a lot.  I did pierce it and put it back in the brine.  I'll put it in a mini-cave box in a basement clean room that is somewhat cool but not cold.  The heat wave hitting us now might not be a good idea for room temp. aging. 

It is rubbery and firm.  After piercing and returning it to the brine it let out bubbles from the piercings.  I gave it a few squeezes in an attempt to make sure brine penetrated well through the piercings. 
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 30, 2013, 06:21:47 PM
So you burped your blue. ;)
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on May 30, 2013, 06:35:27 PM
So you burped your blue. ;)

and it even spit up a little!   :P
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: CheeWilly on May 30, 2013, 06:36:01 PM
My thoughts are after the rind has hardened a bit, it would deter the blues from jumping ship.  Could be totally wrong, but I will be trying this on the next one and let you know.  I may wind up making a mutant blue in the long run!
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 30, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Blue mold makes spores, so drying the rind a little will not stop cross contamination.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: meyerandray on May 30, 2013, 07:19:29 PM
I made a similar make recently, i just put up a thread about it. I am no expert,but wanted to show some moral support!
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Spellogue on May 30, 2013, 08:28:19 PM
I'm glad to see this thread.  I just made a similar blue goat cheese with many of the same "issues" on Monday.  It's good to see there is still hope. I used different cultures than you did, Kathrin.  Are you still using all ND milk?  I do like the jelly doughnut shape you got, it's cute.  Mine is "sitting up straight" despite having used a lower cook temp. 

I too only dry salted and did not salt the curd before placing in the mold.  I'll pull it out of the box and brine it tonight.  And to think I was considering brining, I wish I had bothered.  I hope it's not too late at three days.  I didn't press it though, so I'm thinking I won't pierce before brining as the curd was firm and left a nice gappy wheel. I just cleared a cooler of Monday's beer so I should probably set it upa as a warmer cave for his bleu.

I'll post pics and make notes in a new thread when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: CheeWilly on May 30, 2013, 10:20:22 PM
Blue mold makes spores, so drying the rind a little will not stop cross contamination.

Thanks Sailor, never thought of it that way but it makes sense.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 30, 2013, 11:09:41 PM
I too only dry salted and did not salt the curd before placing in the mold.  I'll pull it out of the box and brine it tonight.

My comments and suggestions were specifically for Tiarella's make because she pressed the cheese and did not allow for much oxygenation in the interior. Dry salting the outside can be a very valid technique and an effective way to produce blues with a cleaner looking rind. But then it's important to have blue actually develop more inside. Switching techniques mid-stream is not generally the best practice. Pick a recipe and stick to the game plan.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Spellogue on May 31, 2013, 01:01:08 AM
I too only dry salted and did not salt the curd before placing in the mold.  I'll pull it out of the box and brine it tonight.

 Dry salting the outside can be a very valid technique and an effective way to produce blues with a cleaner looking rind. But then it's important to have blue actually develop more inside. Switching techniques mid-stream is not generally the best practice. Pick a recipe and stick to the game plan.

Whew!  Thanks for your response Sailor.  I'll stay the course and only move the cheese to a slightly warmer cave set-up.  I salted pretty generously.  I'll keep a close eye and decide on piercing once a healthy blue rind develops. (crosses fingers).

I was aiming at something like a Valdeon, but I'll be happy with any edible result.

It's nice to see the contemporaneous efforts on goat blues.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 06, 2013, 11:42:03 PM
My Renegade Blue is rather green and looking good.  I may call it "Tumescent Green Tomme Blue".  Sounds like a pop song or something.  It's in a cooler with a frozen half gallon container.  We'll see how it does.  Not sure if I need to re-pierce it but I'll watch.  Want to make another one soon but I have too many ideas for cheese makes. 

One interesting thing....I noticed that the blue wasn't covering the mid-line area and then realized that the uncovered area was what hadn't sunk below the brine level.  Although I flipped it, this cheese floated so high in the brine that that one strip didn't submerge.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: meyerandray on June 07, 2013, 07:55:40 AM
Toma a cinta senese!
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 07, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
Toma a cinta senese!

Like Galloway cattle?  Or Dutch Belted cattle, pigs, rabbits, etc? It could be a Belted Blue if it stayed that way.
 I did smear the blue around....but it's an interesting illustration of how important the salt is for making the blue feel welcome.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Boofer on June 07, 2013, 07:12:33 PM
One interesting thing....I noticed that the blue wasn't covering the mid-line area and then realized that the uncovered area was what hadn't sunk below the brine level.  Although I flipped it, this cheese floated so high in the brine that that one strip didn't submerge.
But both sides eventually did get brined, right? That doesn't make sense that the blue would feel less inclined to populate one side. Curious.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 07, 2013, 09:44:29 PM
One interesting thing....I noticed that the blue wasn't covering the mid-line area and then realized that the uncovered area was what hadn't sunk below the brine level.  Although I flipped it, this cheese floated so high in the brine that that one strip didn't submerge.
But both sides eventually did get brined, right? That doesn't make sense that the blue would feel less inclined to populate one side. Curious.

-Boofer-

Just a middle band didn't get brined because it floated high in the brine each side.  Only a third (approx) was submerged on each side.  Does that paint the picture better?   ???
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Boofer on June 08, 2013, 02:35:00 PM
Got it. So, it could have used a little help being submerged. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 08, 2013, 03:21:53 PM
Yeah, like concrete shoes!   :-\
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on June 08, 2013, 06:49:02 PM
You could roll it in salt to cover the sides and then after a day or so pat it all over to spread the love blue.

I may call it "Tumescent Green Tomme Blue".

I got those old Tumescent Green Tomme Blues.... </insert#Harmonica solo>
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 13, 2013, 02:10:37 AM
Okay, need some suggestions again on this one.  Remember, it's a sort of tomme blue with little if any internal air spaces and it got pierced pretty immediately.  It's been in a mini-cave box in a cooler with ice packs and some fluctuation of temps because of my forgetfulness.  It has a heavy blue on it, some white spots  (PC I presume?)  and even some yellowing as the photo shows.  What next?  Pierce again? 
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: hoeklijn on June 13, 2013, 06:23:54 AM
Hi Kathrin,
I would say: pierce again and clean the rind with a brine solution. I had a similar type of rind with my first (and so far only) attempt on Fourme d' Ambert. When the texture inside is pretty dense, you have to pierce to get the PR active at the inside. It became something totally different from what I intended, but it was a nice cheese to eat...
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 13, 2013, 10:32:34 AM
Hi Kathrin,
I would say: pierce again and clean the rind with a brine solution. I had a similar type of rind with my first (and so far only) attempt on Fourme d' Ambert. When the texture inside is pretty dense, you have to pierce to get the PR active at the inside. It became something totally different from what I intended, but it was a nice cheese to eat...

Hi Herman!  Nice to "see" you!    :). Thanks for your suggestion.  Can you tell me why cleaning the rind is a good idea?  For some reason I thought the rind should just stay blue and weird.  Or maybe leaving the rind only works on softer blue cheeses? 
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: meyerandray on June 13, 2013, 12:13:31 PM
a traditional "toma blue" in my region has a funky rind, as you had thought kathrin.  I have been advised by local cheesemakers that once you think you have a pretty good blue growth inside the cheese, they lower the humidity, to around 60/65% and brush lightly if/when molds get out of control, otherwise they just let it go natural. 
I brushed mine because I had what I judged to be mold getting a little out of control, but sort of regret that now.  Good luck and let us know what you decide to do and keep us posted on how it turns out.
I am attaching a picture of what I dream to make successfully someday, this is a traditional toma blu from Moncenisio (Mont Cenis in french, it is on the border btwn france and italy)
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: hoeklijn on June 13, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
Can you tell me why cleaning the rind is a good idea?  For some reason I thought the rind should just stay blue and weird.  Or maybe leaving the rind only works on softer blue cheeses?

Still reading here but not posting much due to a lack of time...

I'm a bit suspicious about the mold I see, are you sure it's PC? That's the reason that I suggested to clean it.
I gave my Bleu d' Armand a regular cleaning (The "Boofer way", read his posts about his Bleu d' Ambert) and it turned out very well.
Normally the rind of a Stiltonesque is not treated that way but I like it sometimes to give a recipe my own twist  ^-^
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 13, 2013, 03:46:28 PM

Still reading here but not posting much due to a lack of time...

I'm a bit suspicious about the mold I see, are you sure it's PC? That's the reason that I suggested to clean it.
I gave my Bleu d' Armand a regular cleaning (The "Boofer way", read his posts about his Bleu d' Ambert) and it turned out very well.
Normally the rind of a Stiltonesque is not treated that way but I like it sometimes to give a recipe my own twist  ^-^

I'm glad at least you're keeping the forum in your mind.....    hope your lack of time means you're doing fantastically wonderful and fulfilling things.   :)  Yeah, maybe the white mold isn't PC but it's likely to be given the last cheese in that box was a PC monster.....although could be something from a Mycodore cheese maybe.  Hmmmm.  I like giving recipes a personal twist too and I love hearing about what others do.  Thanks for your input and I'll see what I can do.  I'd like an easy way to make it less humid for a while but am not sure I can do that and keep the temp correct.  I'll muddle through.
Title: Re: Renegade Blue. Any suggestions welcome!
Post by: Tiarella on June 13, 2013, 03:48:00 PM
a traditional "toma blue" in my region has a funky rind, as you had thought kathrin.  I have been advised by local cheesemakers that once you think you have a pretty good blue growth inside the cheese, they lower the humidity, to around 60/65% and brush lightly if/when molds get out of control, otherwise they just let it go natural. 
I brushed mine because I had what I judged to be mold getting a little out of control, but sort of regret that now.  Good luck and let us know what you decide to do and keep us posted on how it turns out.
I am attaching a picture of what I dream to make successfully someday, this is a traditional toma blu from Moncenisio (Mont Cenis in french, it is on the border btwn france and italy)

Celine, thanks for the ideas and support!  Hmmm, lowering humidity is difficult with this but it's what I was thinking when I checked it last night.  I'll work harder at a solution to that.    I appreciate that photo.  I'll aim for that.   ::)